Am I the only one who feels sorry for Josh Duggar?

[Chemisse]

There is a reason that juvenile records are sealed. That reason is because children do bad things - often - due to their immaturity or (in this case, perhaps) due to the circumstances of their environment.

While I enjoy the irony of the hypocrisy as much as anyone, I think it is really wrong that this man's criminal youth is being exposed in this way. If he commits a crime such as this as an adult, he deserves all this. But as far as we know, his molesting days are well behind him.

I hesitate to excuse what he did, in any way, even as a 14-year-old, but this comment I saw (not on DU) really reveals the circumstances within his environment which may have laid the groundwork for his feeling these actions were okay:

"Inappropriate relations between siblings who are isolated from the world, left to raise each other, and fed an extremist version of Christianity."

(And before I get screamed at, I know these were sexual assaults, not 'inappropriate relationships').

Add to that, his parents' message that boys are more important that girls, and that women are to be subservient to men (pretty clearly demonstrated by their focus on Josh'es future, rather than the impact on his sisters), and he likely had minimal concern over the feelings of his victims.

The importance of putting juvenile records in the past and away from prying eyes is demonstrated every day all over the country, as parents cope with kids who go for joy rides, abuse drugs, get into fist fights, and yes, molest or even rape someone.

Maybe saying I feel sorry for Josh Duggar is an overstatement. But just because this guy is (inevitably) an utter asshole doesn't mean we should throw our own values out the window. His adult life is now being ruined due to something he did as a juvenile.

There is a lot that is positive about illuminating this story. The parents acted badly in so many ways, and they deserve exposure. But none of their children do, not even Josh. I am suggesting that people dial it back on the condemnation of an adult over what he did as a young teen while being brought up in an emotionally difficult environment.

[valerief]

1. Yes.

[dembotoz]

2. feel sorry for all the kids in that wacko family

[Warpy]

160. Same here, but most of my sympathy is used up on the girls

who are taught that their only function in life is to be an obedient baby machine for some guy on a power trip.

Throw in a little sexual assault by your eldest brother and you've got a recipe for girls who go through life silent and beaten.

This is not a healthy way for anyone to grow up, especially anyone female.

[a la izquierda]

3. Yes. That hate monger would see...

My mother and my uncle-both gay- cease to exist. I feel terribly for the women in that horrible family, which dares to lecture us on morality.
He can fornicate himself with a rusty pike.

[Chemisse]

9. I don't really know anything about him other than the news over the past few days.

That probably allows me to feel more compassion. Anti-gay attitudes make me see red.

[yardwork]

157. You might want to read about what the Duggars have been doing lately.

They've been very instrumental in getting gay rights denied in their state. Really nasty.

[LuvNewcastle]

15. I agree.

It's not only about what he did as a child; one has to look at what he's become. It looks to me like he's just as bad or worse now than he was back then. At least then he had youth as an excuse.

[MH1]

48. And to be fair - the reason it is coming out now, is because of who he is now.

If he was just some schmuck working at an auto-body shop and not a celebrity spewing hate and an ideology that treats women as property of men, it wouldn't be making the headlines it is.

That said, I rec'd the op because I think this is an important conversation to have. I agree in principle with the op but think that there are times when we need to know who someone really is, particularly when that someone is in a position to influence society. (what a horrible thought, that any Duggar could influence society, but unfortunately seems true. Ugh.)

[riderinthestorm]

66. One of the girls could have said something any time.

They still could.

Almost rather this came out sooner than later and shut done any influence the Duggan hate fest was causing.

[WinkyDink]

4. Not if you're a Republican.

[TBA]

5. No you are not the only one

something similar happened my in my family, without the media exposure if course. I'm not fond of Christians mind you but I think the DU hatefest seems a bit knee jerk.

[WinkyDink]

6. He molested his SISTERS, FGS. WTH are YOU on about? Nothing to do with "Christians."

[TBA]

11. I was thinking about all of the hypocrisy comments.

When I mentioned Christians.

[cwydro]

7. I don't feel sorry for him, but

I think it is unfair for him to be ruined for something that he did when he was 14.

So hypocritical of certain DUers who claim poor Tsarnaev (and other young criminals) should be treated less harshly because their "brains are not fully formed." I don't see anyone saying that about Duggar.

I do feel sorry for his children and for the sisters, who are now having to relive this horror.

[Chemisse]

12. It's got to be humiliating for the sisters.

And the other children in the family.

But you're right. The knife cuts both ways. Either a child is too young to make proper decisions or he's not. It can't just be when we sympathize with him.

[cwydro]

14. Exactly.

But one thing we can count on here at DU is hypocrisy lol.

[MH1]

50. Well, I think it speaks more to the dysfunction and incompetence of the parenting.

Josh was underage and too young to make proper decisions. But his parents weren't. And none of them should be held up as any kind of role models for how families should be. They should have been focusing a lot more on their own family, rather than how others live.

[Ilsa]

63. This disclosure is another reason why these parents

Should not be looked to as good parents, whether they are "godly" or not. Children need attention and direction from adults throughout childhood and teen years. These parents neglected their kids as soon as another one came along.

I doubt Josh's life is ruined. Yes, there is embarrassment. But I suspect someone will hire him to represent their extremist ideas. Juvenile or not, he had no business, as an adult, promoting the lie that being gay makes a person a pedophile or sex offender. He doesn't understand the abnormal psychology well enough to preach about this.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

47. That's where I am too

So hypocritical of certain DUers who claim poor Tsarnaev (and other young criminals) should be treated less harshly because their "brains are not fully formed." I don't see anyone saying that about Duggar.

Yes, what he did was wrong, and yes he should have known better. But had this been the son of any Democratic hero, excuses would be made all over the place by some of the same people that think he should be put away.

Add in the unsubstantiated accusations (he raped them, the molested a 4 year old), and it's a pretty standard DU hate fest.

[onecaliberal]

132. No we wouldn't be making excuses for child molesters.

FFS, what is wrong with people. I don't give a rats ass what your religion is, crime is crime. If josh was black his ass would still be in prison. You don't get to decide punishment. This is what happens when you go around running your mouth about how much better you are than other people because you are "Christian". They are being attacked for being hypocrites and rightly so.! There is no god damned defense for these fucking people or their criminal actions.

[spinbaby]

8. I did at first

At first I thought it might have been a case of a pubescent boy answering his questions about sex by checking things out. But he was 14 and apparently kept molesting his sisters over a long period of time even after he was given a "talking to." His parents get a lot of blame for enabling this and he gets blame for being a sick f#%! I feel so bad for the girls in that family.

In my circle of acquaintances, I had a 12-year-old who was caught undressing his preschool sister. His parents reacted appropriately by making sure he was never left alone with his sister and by sending him to a real counselor who explained the facts of life and why his behavior was inappropriate. He was also from a pretty repressed Christian family.

[Chemisse]

13. I think this happens pretty often among much younger kids.

Maybe the parents missed the opportunity to handle such a situation properly so that the boy would understand behavioral boundaries. Then puberty hits and all hell breaks loose.

[hlthe2b]

20. This was not a case of two similarly aged children "playing doctor"

He molested multiple sisters in their sleep--including a four year old!

[Bluenorthwest]

10. Josh as an adult has spent his time harassing and attacking LGBT people as part of FRC, a hate group

Dial it back? Why? That grown man has no right to spew hateful venom at others. He and his entire family are financial and moral frauds, he trades in denigration of others for his own profit and fame.

[Chemisse]

18. I have been blessed with complete ignorance of this family until now.

If I knew of his spewed hatred, I would have trouble mustering sympathy for him, even as I still believe juveniles have a right to have their futures protected.

I don't think he deserves this publicity specifically, but perhaps he deserves it in the karmic sense.

[Bluenorthwest]

23. Why do straights always rush to defend anti gay clergy even when the clergy is clearly corrupt and

dishonest? I don't get that. Sorry.

[Dawgs]

33. Painting with a wide brush there, no?

I'm sure you'd be pretty pissed if someone wrote, 'Why do gays always..'

[Bluenorthwest]

51. Well kid, the entire universe of anti gay sentiment comes from Staight people, mostly the religious

The OP has defended more than one 'religious' anti gay activist associated with child abuse and the covering up of child abuse. Josh worked for FRC, which joined Pope Francis, Rick Warren and hundreds of other international hate mongers in an anti gay conference in Rome. DUers have defended Francis and Rick Warren, Warren has been an honored part of Democratic events days after he equated all gay relationships to incest and pedophilia.
It's just a fact that many straight folks and the straight religious community rush to defend and often to honor horrific speakers of hate who cover up great crimes in their own circles. It's a terrible habit. It's also the stone cold truth.

I note you can't even deny that the straight community does exactly what I say it does nor come up with any counterpart offense the LGBT community can be blamed for.

[Chemisse]

125. "The OP has defended more than one 'religious' anti gay activist associated with child abuse . . "

Do you have a link?

I thought I was defending a juvenile's right to privacy as an adult. But no, apparently I was promoting some kind of anti-gay agenda?

Are there boogeymen under your bed too?

[Dawgs]

164. Don't disagree but what you implied is that ALL STRAIGHTS feel this way.

I really hope you're not that paranoid.

[Chemisse]

124. Seriously? That's what you get from this - that I am supportive of anti-gay clergy?

I'm not going to bother to defend my thoughts on this, but this really says a lot about you - not me.

[imnew]

141. hmm

[bravenak]

152. I have no idea, but it's fucked up.

[EL34x4]

68. Doesn't deserve this publicity?

He sought publicity as executive director of the FRC, using his name to lobby for right-wing causes. His family sought fame and fortune as reality TV stars where they pontificated on Christian "family values" sanctimony.

It would be one thing if he chose to live quietly somewhere out of the public eye. But he didn't. None of the Duggars did. Fame has a high price when you have skeletons in your closet, skeletons the whole family knew about when TLC came knocking at their door with a fistful of money.

[roody]

87. Me too. I have never seen the show.

I am glad they have been outed as complete hypocrites.

[randys1]

52. So he stopped at age 14? Is that really what we are being told here? Regardless, his hate

for everybody not like him, especially Gay folks, makes him an asshole

fuck him

[StevieM]

105. He didn't stop at the basic hate-spewing. He specifically labeled them as dangerous to children. eom

[Arkansas Granny]

16. No, you're not the only one. There's no denying what he did was wrong,

but the fact that the situation was handled badly was the fault of his parents. They failed him and the girls by not getting appropriate and adequate counseling.

[justiceischeap]

17. His youngest victim was 4 years old

I feel sorry for her (and the other victims), not him.

His parents waited just long enough for the statute of limitations to run out when they finally went to the police. He received no real counseling other than "spiritual" and I would not be surprised if this went on longer than we're aware of.

[StevieM]

107. They originally went to a state trooper friend, who helped them cover it up.

Eventually Oprah got wind of the story and notified the police. But by then the statute of limitations has expired, as I understand it.

But yeah, there was definitely a run out the clock mentality on the part of Jim Bob and Michelle.

[hlthe2b]

19. He molested multiple girls, including a 4 year old, was never prosecuted, never faced justice at all

Had he been tried and the case resolved, I might agree with you. Instead it was covered up and the victims NEVER received justice nor (apparently) aid of any kind, including counseling.

Where is the concern for the victims?

[Chemisse]

22. Good point.

I can understand the parents not wanting to put their child through the criminal justice system, but they should have gone all-out with therapy for him over a long period of time, AND for the little girls.

[hlthe2b]

25. Yes...

I would have been fine with him being sentenced to intense psychological (non-religious) counseling had he been prosecuted as an adolescent. I am not saying he should have gone to juvenile detention or.. worse. And, had he received/served that "sentence", I agree with juvenile sealing of records.

But, it is not clear to me that he is not now an adult pedophile and that is extremely worrisome, given he has young children.

[uppityperson]

100. Thank you for this and your previous post. You put well what my concerns are.

Thank you. He did something awful, repeatedly, to young children. He never faced any sort of consequence for that. It was hidden, covered up. None of his victims got any help. What is he doing now, since he never had any sort of counseling or help as a teen?

[asjr]

54. His Mom and Dad were too busy in the bedroom creating more

children to help him. They were on a mission to become "The Duggars" with 19 children. Quite frankly, the entire family turns my stomach! Making money off of one's children has been their only reason for being.

[tishaLA]

145. And to think, were it not for Oprah, this would still be hidden

Her staff was the only entity interested in a proper investigation into the molestation and was ultimately the only entity with a modicum of decency in the whole matter. It sure as fuck wasn't the church, the parents, or the cops. Ultimately, they were all enablers.

To be truthful, I worry for his children.

[LAGC]

21. You lost me after "kids who go for joy rides, abuse drugs, get into fist fights..."

This isn't a little bit of "teenage rebellion" we're talking about here, but systemic, repeated, continuous child abuse over a prolonged period of time.

With treatment, yes, the prognosis for juvenile sex offenders is quite good and there's a reason most of them are kept off the sex offender registry.

But HE NEVER GOT TREATMENT. He never had to go through intensive sex offender counseling to come to see why his behavior was so wrong.

His risk of re-offending without treatment is astronomical, and now he has a daughter the same age as one of his victims!

I don't feel sorry for him, I feel sorry for any little girl left alone with that creep who HAS NOT addressed his criminal thinking patterns.

Going to church and "praying it away" isn't therapy. He needs help, not pity.

[Martin Eden]

24. Like all of us, he's largely the product of how he was raised

(as well as genetic predisposition)
Nature and Nurture

Human sexuality is natural, and teenagers need wise guidance. The so-called "family values" crowd seeks to suppress and condemn nature, and in so doing handicaps a young person's ability to cope with sexual urges in a responsible and healthy manner.

Josh Duggar is not the real villain here. The sanctimonious Christian Right is.

[justiceischeap]

27. Mr. Eden, when growing up and you started feeling your sexual urges

did you think it would be fun or natural to sexually assault a 4 year old?

It does a disservice to all teen-age boys who know it's not right to "forcibly fondle" their sisters.

[Martin Eden]

29. Of course not.

I am offended by your question and the implication that I would condone such a thing.

Are you saying that Josh Duggar's upbringing and home environment had absolutely nothing to do with how he channeled his sexual urges at that age?

I stated that we are largely the product of nature and nurture, my point being that if he had better guidance the molestation might never have happened. Besides nature and nurture, to what do you ascribe his actions?

[justiceischeap]

53. There are many reasons for this type of behavior, the most common being pedophilia

http://www.childmolestationprevention.org/pages/focus_on_the_cause.html

Without knowing what's going on in his brain or how long this took place we can't say. He could be a pedophile, which is an actual mental condition.

If he molested any of these children past the age of 16 (his age, not theirs), then he could be a pedophile. That has nothing to do with nature vs. nurture.

Saying that his home-life had something to do with how he channeled his "urges" (btw, his "urges" were in fact sexual assaults) means that most of the kids in that family should be in trouble for molestation but from what we're hearing, it was just him. If you go with the idea that it was nurture, who taught him it was okay to sexually assault his sisters? If we are to believe that these children were brought up to believe that having sex outside of marriage is a grave sin (holding hands is even wrong), then, I have to ask again, who taught him this behavior?

[Martin Eden]

64. NATURE and nurture

Within any group of siblings there will be a range of inborn character traits. A combination of traits, his position as eldest, interactions with his parents, and the subculture into which he was indoctrinated are all contributing factors to Josh Duggar's behavior as a 14 year-old.

Are you serious with the question you ask at the end of your post?

One of the points I was trying to make with my first post is that the suppression of sexuality we see with RW Christian fundies like the Duggars is not a wise or healthy approach to raising teenagers in a home or in the larger society. Objective understanding and mentoring is needed, not religious dogma.

You might as well have asked who taught teenagers to have unprotected sex in the context of a parenting or school curriculum that insists on abstinence only "education."

I'm really not sure what your overall point is ... that Josh Duggar was just plain evil at 14 years of age?

Yes, what he did can be characterized as evil. Any form of sexual abuse -- especially against children -- is a terrible crime.

My point is that Josh Duggar was a child himself at that time, and perhaps with a more enlightened upbringing his little sisters might not have become victims.

[Agschmid]

37. Weird to post a picture like that...

Whose kid is that? Think they want their kid in a post like this?

[Logical]

46. YOU NEED TO SELF DELETE THIS POST!!! GET THIS KIDS PHOTO OFF THE INTERNET! nt

[In_The_Wind]

95. thank you!

[m-lekktor]

26. another sickening thread to hide. your precious Josh

Is one sick , homophoblc, piece of SHIT

[Chemisse]

28. Such compelling logic, and persuasive, intelligent discourse!

[Logical]

44. Some posts are so misguided that no intelligent response would help. nt

[Chemisse]

127. Really? Because a lot of other people in this thread are contributing good ideas and insights

Whether they agree with what I wrote, or not. That's what discussion is all about.

[trumad]

30. This has got to be the craziest shit I've ever read on DU!

The importance of putting juvenile records in the past and away from prying eyes is demonstrated every day all over the country, as parents cope with kids who go for joy rides, abuse drugs, get into fist fights, and yes, molest or even rape someone.


So what you are saying is--- a 14 year old rapes someone and that information should be hidden---forever? BECAUSE it's shit kids do?

What the Fuck!

[In_The_Wind]

43. I agree with you.

[xmas74]

81. Boost a car? Seal the record.

Caught with a baggie? Seal the record.

Sex crime? Don't seal the record.

Youthful indiscretions are one thing but this? Not even close. I think that most sex crimes should have open records and no statute of limitations. (The exceptions would be a Romeo and Juliet type of statutory or public urination. A friend from high school was arrested at the local "Lover's Leap" for indecent exposure. His girlfriend was "servicing" him in the car when a police officer walked up and saw-everything. They were both 18 and the circumstances behind it should have kept him off the offender list.)

I have a fourteen year old. She is the same age he was when he committed his crimes. She is old enough and responsible enough that she babysits for spending money and volunteers in our church day care. She is around children all the time and at fourteen this is socially acceptable. Fourteen year olds are old enough to know better. He was old enough to know better. Fourteen is not a child.

It looks like neither of us understand a few of the views in this thread.

[treestar]

99. But it is hidden forever if the person is a juvenile.

Are you saying it should be made public upon their reaching the age of majority?

[trumad]

134. no..it should never be hidden.

[Jamastiene]

122. Thank you.

Raping and molesting are not just normal shit kids do. It is must worse.

[Android3.14]

31. Nope. I have some sympathy. But only a small amount.

It appears the molesting went on for years with multiple girls and sisters, while they were asleep, against their wills.

Add to it the gross hypocrisy and this guy deserves everything coming down the pike, along with the FRC, Huckabee and the rest of those drooling monsters.

My sympathy to the guy is that he grew up in a system designed to force people to act out on their emerging sexuality in ways that are, at best, inappropriate. It is obvious when the religious authorities, such as the Family Research Council, learn of the perversion, they suppress the record in order to gain a hook on the young person's soul. I would bet money there are organized factions within many churches that wait for this sort of thing to happen so they can use moral blackmail to control people within the church.

Duggar's handlers knew about this. The FRC/Huckabee/Hobby Lobby crowd put this young man in a position of responsibility because they could use his perversion to control his public actions. Barring compelling evidence to the contrary, it is unreasonable to assume otherwise.

But in the end, that is still no excuse for the hypocrisy and continued prejudice against others. We are all the victims of our childhoods, yet the larger society still expects us to behave as responsible and ethical human beings despite the setbacks of our teen years.

[Kalidurga]

32. There is a reason that juvenile records are sealed.

There was no record to seal. He was never charged with a crime. One of his victims apparently wrote a note about it and that started the ball rolling for this story to get out. BTW even if there was a sealed record any one of his victims should have the right to speak out about what he did even if he did it as a juvenile. Or do you propose that a victim be subjected to a gag order based on the age of the offender?

And on top of all that he is vile as an adult. If he had learned something from the fall out of what he did and if the "counselling" he received had actually been effective you would think he wouldn't worry about motes so much. But, I guess it's hard to have a tolerant world view when your vision is blocked by planks and all.

[uppityperson]

102. Exactly. Thank you. eom

[Chemisse]

130. Apparently there WERE police records.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2015/05/23/josh-duggar-records-destroyed/27837149/

[riderinthestorm]

137. That was the initial report. Not a juvenile record despite the newspaper confusing the 2 nt

[Doctor_J]

34. hopefully

[we can do it]

35. Not just no FUCK NO. Self righteous assholes like him have made LGBT peoples lives hell.

Fuck him and his disgusting family.

[riderinthestorm]

36. There's no juvenile record that's been "unsealed" here. Therein lies a part of the problem

He never was charged. This was all swept under the rug. The girls (or him) never received justice or counseling.

And now he's grown into a sick fuckers who accuses gay people of being pedophiles (for one thing on top of the rest of the sick FRC agenda).

[PeaceNikki]

38. No sympathy here. He dedicated his life to attacking women and LGBT.

Fuck him. I hope his life is ruined.

[n2doc]

39. I don't feel sorry for him at all n/t

[HassleCat]

40. Have to agree

When I was that age, a couple of the older girls (15 & 16) in the neighborhood wanted to "play doctor" with me. What happened was considered not a big deal in those days, because no actual sex took place, but it would be sexual assault now. I guess we will not learn the details of what Josh Dugger did or did not do, but he did it when he was well short of being an adult. I'm generally not in favor of treating children as adults, since it can lead to them being imprisoned with real adults, or even executed. And there is, as you mention, the little problem of being raised by a couple nutjob parents.

[mercuryblues]

129. no it would

not be considered sexual assault if the parties were close in age and both agreed. Oh and NOT your younger sibling. That in itself minimizes what dugger did. He raped some of his sisters. His 5 year old sister...he touched her in her "private area". This was not a one off occurrence, each victim had multiple assaults. He calls it an indiscretion of youth. No. just no. He didn't accidentally have his penis find its way into his sister's vagina by mistake over and over and over again. He was 15 when the 1st incident was reported and it continued for a while longer before anything was done about it.

The police report is online. Just remember this. How many victims are out there that have not come forward?

I am not for treating kids as adults as a general rule. But there are some crimes where the public needs to be protected raping little girls is one of them. It's not like he stole a lollypop from the 7-11.

[Cal Carpenter]

41. Huh? I feel sorry for the *victims* who have been identified.

Last edited Sat May 23, 2015, 10:26 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't feel sorry for him. I have issues about allowing juvenile records to go public in general, but I sure as shit don't feel sorry for him.

He didn't just make some mistake once. He molested multiple people on multiple occasions, and he should have been charged at the time.

[Fred Sanders]

70. Child victims NOT being identified would have been one of the reasons for sealing the records.

[Cal Carpenter]

82. Yes, which is why

I said in my post that I have problems with juvenile records getting leaked.

I was responding to the question of whether or not people feel sorry for Josh Duggar, which I do not. He got off easy. He should have been charged for the crimes at the time, he should have had real therapy and probably some punishment, but instead his parents had a family friend squash it.

It is his victims with whom I sympathize and empathize.

Was I not clear?

[Logical]

42. Yes, you are. Maybe freeperville would agree with you. nt

[bigwillq]

45. I don't feel sorry for him. He's a sexual predator and should be in jail (nt)

[Tom Ripley]

49. Probably

[LadyHawkAZ]

55. No sympathy here. He's an adult and shows zero remorse

or concern for his victims, and his entire lifestyle shows a massive lack of empathy in the bigger picture. Also, this wasn't a one-off, it was multiple victims with the last (reported) incident occurring, if I read things right, when he was 17.

So fuck his poor little feelings. Do I blame the parents and their delusional "sincerely held beliefs"? Absolutely, but that's not the same thing as feeling sorry for a sexual predator who was old enough to know better.

[StevieM]

113. Excellent points. Josh Duggar was a repeat, serial offender. And we still don't know

the whole story of what happened with the fifth victim, the one who was not part of the family.

It is safe to assume that the Duggar sisters never got any real counseling. And Josh's counseling consisted of helping to remodel a house.

Finally, let's not forget that the younger Duggar sons also grew up in that messed up environment. And yet as far as we know none of them are guilty of the same behavior.

It amazes me that Josh's wife Anna knew about this before she married him. I guess she figured that his sin was confessed and forgiven and therefore the problem was solved. It is frightening to me that he has a daughter, another girl on the way, and will probably have many more daughters given that they don't use birth control.

[LadyHawkAZ]

149. Agreed. Even more frightening since he got away with it

the first few times.

[Thespian2]

56. Understand your point

but Josh grew up...he became what his parents wanted...a hate-filled bigot who had the opportunity to harm other people...and he used those opportunities...

I wonder what Michelle was proving...that she could get pregnant every ten months?

[Humanist_Activist]

57. I thought the assaults continued until he was nearly an adult, I'm sorry, he's a predator now...

if he was ever a victim, that victim is dealing with what happened wrongly.

[Starry Messenger]

58. Wtf.

There's a such thing as being too open-minded. I feel sorry for the girls.

[oberliner]

59. The whole situation is very disturbing

But you definitely raise some very reasonable points. There is a different criminal justice system for children for a reason. They literally have brains that are not fully formed and they are often incapable of the sort of thinking that an adult is capable of. The parents are dangerous and the movement to which they belong is frightening.

[mgardener]

60. I can't say I feel sorry for him

He was never charged, so he does not have a record. He had a file, which I understand was destroyed at the request as a victim.
Perhaps if he had lived his adult life differently then I may have. Perhaps if he was not so sanctimonious and hypocritical.
But, he did not learn from his own 'sins'. He went on to make life very difficult for others.

However, I am surprised that the parents and police are not getting more flak. Why are they not being held accountable?
Why are people not questioning their lack of protection for their own daughters and/or the other girls involved?

Here is what his mother had to say in her robo call
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/18/michelle-duggar-anti-discrimination-proposal_n_5689840.html

Was her own son not a predator? Why are other people's children not given the same consideration that Josh Duggar was given?

[B Calm]

61. I don't agree! He's another right-wing fruitcake!

[craigmatic]

62. Yes you are if anything they need to give him the full Cosby treatment but they won't

mainly because he's a white conservative christian.

[MineralMan]

65. No, you're not.

Right-wingers are flocking to forgive him for sexually molesting his young sisters and one other young girl. They're posting comments on news stories and on Twitter. They use words like "curious" and "God forgives and so do I."

Maybe you can post in some of those places. Here's the deal: Yes, 14 year old boys are "curious." When they take that curiosity and sexually assault their younger sisters, then that's something this society should not tolerate.

So, no. I don't "feel sorry" for this person. Not at all. I was a 14 year old boy at one time, myself. I didn't sexually assault anyone. I was never tempted to do so. My parents raised me to respect others.

You aren't the only one to "feel sorry" for this person. But it's very likely that you're the only one on DU posting that you do. There's a lesson in that, I'm pretty sure.

[Fred Sanders]

69. The issue of protecting the privacy of the child victims is also a good reason to seal criminal investigative records.

Feel sorry for an outrage obsessed nation mostly ignorant about the juvenile justice system and criminal procedure in sexual offences, and a society that permits and puts on a TV pedestal a family that raises all it's children under an aura of oppression and rigid sex-based modelling, not just for just this Duggar raised in that environment.

[MineralMan]

72. I'm not much for feeling sorry for people who are capable

of thinking, but who do not do so. I feel sorry for victims who cannot defend themselves. I feel sorry for people who are in a bad situation they can't control. I don't feel sorrow for a society that does not protect those people. I feel anger, disgust, and outrage, instead.

And I don't feel sorry for 14 year old boys who molest their sisters. Ever. You might, but I don't.

[AngryOldDem]

67. I don't feel one bit sorry for him.

I am tired of people like him holding themselves up as the models of moral behavior when in fact they have just as many if not more skeletons in their closets than anyone else. I am tired of their sanctimony.

Duggar certainly was of an age when he could tell right from wrong. It's cases like this that make me believe even more that there should be no statute of limitations on sexual abuse. Saying "I'm sorry" after all these years, and after all these strings were pulled to keep things quiet, is definitely not enough. And using the excuse of "extreme Christianity" is galling.

No sympathy here.

[Fla Dem]

71. No, No, No. Cannot feel any compassion for this man.

Yes, he was a minor when he committed those heinous acts. Yes, he has been brought up in a ridiculous environment which would warp anyone's sense of the real world and the difference between right and wrong, and the worth of women.

But he is a grown man NOW. He continues to preach the same doctrine. He worked for Tony Perkins' Family Research Council espousing the same extreme views he was brought up with. He said "I acted inexcusably." He should have said "I did despicable and horrendous act toward my sisters and other little girls." Inexcusable, Excussse me.

As an adult he should have broken away from that wacko brainwashing, extremist cult and started to work against that type of thinking he was brought up with. He had a chance to redeem himself, instead he took the road of least resistance and the one paved with gold.

[muriel_volestrangler]

85. That sums it up, for me; taking the FRC position and continuing the anti-LGBT bigotry

by accusing them of being a 'danger' to children makes him, as an adult, a lying, bigoted hypocrite.

His 'apology' that said "I understood that if I continued down this wrong road that I would end up ruining my life" looks so self-centered. It claims the victims received counselling, but I'm not sure they did.

[1monster]

73. No. If he continued into adulthood with molesting children, then I would say he deserved

what is happening now.

If he didn't, then shame on all of the judgmental, quick to condemn people out there that who are screaming for blood, insisting with great conviction that once a pedophile always a pedophile, that there is no cure and they must be shunned and punished their entire lives.

At the age of 14, one is not a pedophile. One who does molest children may definitely be headed in that direction, but a child cannot be a pedophile simply because s/he is a child also. Maturity rates at 14 are uneven. The ability to judge between right and wrong is clouded by the major upheaval in body and brain development (which doesn't settle down until about age 25) and environment in which the child is living. Critical thinking and moral/ethical development are still in the early stages.

I haven't followed this story closely because of all of the hateful commentary that abound on this subject.

I hold no brief for the Duggar parents at all. I believe that having that many children (on purpose, too!) is in it self a form of child abuse.

As to whether the Duggar parents acted appropriately or not, I guess the proof would be in the pudding, as they say. Did the behavior stop? If so, then perhaps they did. And did the children who were molested get proper treatment and care?

One size does not fit all, and the "experts" on the subject are for the most part freakin' quacks.

[onecaliberal]

135. Speaking as a victim, the girls don't get to "grow out" of what happened to them.

[1monster]

165. Don't assume that I was not a victim.

I was. Over a period of seven years.

No, one does not just "grow" out of what happened. It took me many years to learn how to face it, deal with the anger and out right rage that over took me in unexpected moments, and put it behind me as best as I could and live my life without the shadow of the past hanging over me.

I left the area when I was 18 and moved 1000 miles away. I'm nearing sixty and can still have the occasional flash back. But I choose not to live my life in bitterness and rage.

Why give your abuser so much power over you? Take your life back and live it on your terms.

[onecaliberal]

166. Don't assume I give my abuser any power.

I don't. I also don't try to pretend it never happened. It is a piece of who I am unfortunately. I was very angry for years, but did manage to work through it. I damn sure don't feel sorry for any child molester. Especially when their crimes are covered up and the victims are never given the help they will absolutely need to process what happend to them.

[LiberalElite]

74. I don't feel a scintilla of an iota sorry for him nt

[Iggo]

75. No, there's a whole bunch of people just like you out there...

...who have trouble distinguishing between a mistake and a crime.

[Autumn]

76. So he's taking a hit on his "reputation" . He should be a registered sex offender.

This man goes around with his powerful buddies saying that GLBTs are a danger to children and yet look at the danger he was to his Sisters and his parents abetted it. He got off scott free, I don't see how his life has been ruined.

[MaggieD]

77. I agree

And I will add one thing. Given the way he was raised he was probably exhibiting the mentality of a six or seven year old at the age of 14. Kids that are home schooled by evangelicals often have retarded emotional growth, IME.

[Chemisse]

133. That really seems to be true.

I am curious what the effect of social isolation has on a child's moral judgments. How much social feedback did we have as children that helped us to moderate our behaviors so they were socially acceptable?

[abelenkpe]

78. No plenty of republicans agree with you

Just stuff kids do huh? Molesting children?

[onecaliberal]

79. When you are running around saying LGBTs

Are evil and will molest children when you know you've committed sexual assault multiple times is some special kind of sick. These so called Christians want to think that their behavior is somehow "forgiven" because God. There are many people behind bars for things they did as children. We are a society of laws, no one should be above them. If these people were not white josh would be a convicted felon.
I seriously fear for his children.

[GoneOffShore]

80. Yes you are. Apart from some CRWNJ's.

He should be registered as a sex offender.

And the other minor children in that family should be removed from the parents, because the parents were complicit in his behaviour.

[Marrah_G]

83. No- I do no't feel badly for him

Not for one fucking second do I feel sorry for him.

I feel badly for the girls who were forced to live with their abuser.

[Paladin]

84. The right wing depends on that sort of wimpy liberal sympathizing.

Dry your eyes for the likes of Josh Duggar. His police records have been conveniently expunged. His "I Sinned But Now I'm Forgiven" schtick guarantees him a lifetime of big-money speaking fees. And above all else: Josh Duggar and his family and his followers hate our guts.

Save your sympathy for someone who really deserves it---like Josh Duggar's victims.

[Tom Ripley]

89. +1000

[historylovr]

86. I feel sorry for his victims.

[City Lights]

88. I don't feel sorry for him.

Last edited Sat May 23, 2015, 01:29 PM - Edit history (1)

He is a sexual predator. I feel sorry for his victims. He is a raging hypocrite. If he felt remorse, he would refrain from warning people to keep their kids away from LGBTs because those people can't be trusted around children. Instead, he signed on with the FRC, and he (and his parents) continue to push that falsehood while knowing that he is a sexual predator. They make me sick to my stomach.

[cheyanne]

90. Let's skip the "feel sorry" question and look at the problem that exists right now: There are still

minors in the Dugger family that need to be protected. It may be too late for criminal penalties for the parents, but what about Child Protective Services?

The real criminals here are the mother and father, who knew about the molestation and did not report it. They were the ones responsible for what occurred and for handling it. So Josh is now having to live through the results not only of his actions as a minor, but his parents' actions at the time. If they had reported Josh at the time, he and his family could have moved on, perhaps learned something. But once you start hiding your crimes, your life is eaten from the inside out from the lies of omission as well as those of commission. Why did the Duggers agree to expose their family on tv? They are in such deep denial that they couldn't even see the risk they were taking.*

In that sense, Josh is a victim here, too: of his parent's beliefs and actions.

*The Greeks have a word for it: hubris. See Oedipus Rex.

[TexasBushwhacker]

112. I do not feel sorry for adult Josh

He is fully responsible for his hypocritical gay bashing.

However, I do feel some sympathy for a 14 year old who is raised to believe that he will not be able to even hug or kiss a girl until he's married. No doubt he was raised to believe that masturbation was sinful as well. His upbringing was a crucible for sexual abuse. He also may be a victim of abuse as well.

What he did was wrong by God's law and Josh believes he has been forgiven, but it was illegal by man's law and he has not been held accountable for that. His parents, their clergy and friends covered for him, at least until the statute of limitations had expired.

[ScreamingMeemie]

91. I feel sorry for the victims, both the original victims and the LGBT victims of his hatred.

The ones who have had to listen to his verbal battery, calling them pedophiles and child molesters, while knowing he, himself, was one.

No, I don't feel sorry for Josh Duggar. I feel sorry for real victims.

[Aristus]

92. I don't know if you're the only one, but I don't feel sorry for him.

If, after he had committed his crimes against his sisters, he had grown up to live a life of unconditional love, broad-minded empathy, and humble self-reflection, I could find it in my heart to feel sympathy for his current plight.

But he didn't. He grew up to be a self-righteous prig, a hypocrite, and a hate-filled goon scrambling after money and public notice by spewing smug bigotry and religious extremism.

The slimy little shitheel deserves everything he's getting now, especially since the statute of limitations has expired, saving his pale fat ass from hard time in a stone hotel somewhere.

[In_The_Wind]

94. Well said, Aristus.

Obviously, I agree with you.

[Aristus]

98. Thank you.

[Chemisse]

138. I guess I have mentally separated the child from the "slimy little shitheel" he grew up to be.

Which was easy for me, since I was not familiar with him or his family until this past week.

Clearly the pain he has caused others as an adult is so overwhelming that it colors the entire issue. Who could ever feel sympathy for a "self-righteous prig, a hypocrite, and a hate-filled goon scrambling after money and public notice by spewing smug bigotry and religious extremism"?

[Aristus]

163. And the only pain he feels is his own.

Not a word. Not a word of sympathy or regret from him to his victims. He's made the backlash from this entirely about himself.

[Solly Mack]

93. As a survivor, I can't. I won't.

He reminds me too much of my own attacker.

Distancing himself from his actions. Pretending what he did wasn't all that bad. Calling it a simple "mistake" or "sin" instead of labeling it what it was. Using language that shows he does not want to grasp the damage he caused.

Yes, I also blame his parents and his environment.

Still, it's his victims that I weep for. They have my sympathy - my empathy.

Josh Duggar's life is being torn a part for something he did as a youth?

Well, childhood sexual abuse stays with you for the rest of your life. Victims have to live with it every day for the rest of their lives. It manifest itself in all kinds of ways - lack of trust, inability to form relationships, self-mutilation, can affect the way you learn, how well you do in school, what jobs you can get, causes depression, eating disorders, can lead to alcohol and drug addiction. Makes you more likely to be re-victimized as an adult. Did you know that? A sexually abused child is more likely to be raped - again - later in life.

So, no. He was the one protected and shielded.....and people are still trying to protect him and shield him.

No. No. No.

[StevieM]

117. Duggar said it all in his public statement: "I was on a path that would ruin MY life."

Even now, it is still all about him

I will give his parents part of the blame for that. First of all, as you said, they protected and shielded him. So he was taught as a minor that this tragedy was his tragedy.

Second, in that environment, women and girls are not even remotely equal to men. It is beyond sexist. Women exist to serve and pleasure men. That attitude is pervasive in his whole life and denies him the capability of truly feeling empathy.

All that being said, the younger Duggar boys were raised in the same sick culture. And as far as we know, none of them have ever done anything like what Josh did.

Josh needed professional treatment, partly for his own sake, and mostly to make sure he didn't re-offend. Instead he was sent to remodel a house.

[Solly Mack]

118. Exactly. It was all about his life.

Not the lives of his victims. Because they just didn't matter.

[Chemisse]

139. It's good to remember the profound damage that can be done to a victim.

Thank-you for sharing that, and I hope you have found peace.

[CharlotteVale]

96. I don't waste sympathy on hatemongering bigots. And he and his

family were really stupid if they thought this would never get out. But in their arrogance they held themselves up as some holier than thou perfect examples of a great Christian lifestyle. And he built his career on judging and trying to destroy people who never did a thing to hurt him. But if it makes you feel any better, I doubt if his life is "ruined."

[Chemisse]

142. Lol - you are probably right.

His peers will forgive him, after all, since he confessed. Maybe they could top if off with an exorcism, to rid him of any lingering demons.

[CharlotteVale]

154. Exactly. Rightwingers love freak shows.

[treestar]

97. I do think it wrong it was revealed since he was a juvenile

I haven't figured out yet how it came out.

And I hear you about the cult like atmosphere. Not as easy for him to know about the wrongness of it. Sort of like living in earlier times when people suffered these things without telling anyone.

[riderinthestorm]

106. An incriminating letter was left in a book that was in their church

exactly who wrote the letter and what it contained is not yet known.

It's possible the letter is from one of his victims now that they're older.

[treestar]

109. I see

Yes there is nothing to stop the victims from talking. And he admits it now, apparently. Said he was investigated but not charged so I wondered if it was not proven.

Seems all those family values and Bibles and praying are not effective in preventing these things.

[riderinthestorm]

111. It was "given" to a state trooper friend who sat on it til the statute of limitations ran out

oh and this state trooper friend gave Josh a stern talking to (not a joke).

Then that same trooper was convicted of child porn and is currently serving 56 years in jail.

[Chemisse]

144. Ahhh. I didn't know that.

Certainly people - particularly victims - have every right to talk about what a juvenile did. Ordinarily there is little impact on someone's life if people in the community know about a child's offense. But when that person is well-known and attracts publicity, then such a revelation can really create havoc in someone's life.

Writing a letter like that - and observing the results - may have been very therapeutic for one of the victims.

[uppityperson]

101. He was NEVER charged with a crime. He sexually abused small children and was never charged.

He did not have a juvenile record as he was never charged for his crimes.

Are you saying that his victims should never be able to speak out about their abuse because "kids...go for joy rides, abuse drugs, get into fist fights, and yes, molest or even rape someone" and their right to privacy about their uncharged crimes, their untreated sexual abuse issues outweigh the right of the victims?

[treestar]

110. Why wasn't he

He admits it now. But at the time maybe the DA did not think there was enough evidence.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

119. The DA knew about it? (n/t)

[ScreamingMeemie]

136. At the time, his parents were busy keeping it hidden until the statute of limitations ran out.

First instance was in 2002. This all did not "come to light" thanks to the child pornography police officer from their church, until 2006 when Harpo turned them in. By then, prosecution could not happen.

[treestar]

151. Oh I thought it said that he was investigated

for it and reported to the police in Arkansas, when he was a minor. So the police could have tried to get the prosecutor to bring charges. The police officer didn't do his job. Especially if he admitted it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

153. Yup. The original state trooper sat on it.

No report was filed in 2002. Those poor girls.

[Chemisse]

146. No, I am not saying that.

Victims have every right to speak about their abuse.

[uppityperson]

150. Thanks for clarifying. I feel sorry for all children growing up in abusive households

This in no way means I absolve him from his crimes or do not fear for his own children.

[gwheezie]

103. I blame his parents

I feel sorry for his victims. The parents should have protected all the children. They should have gotten him help.
I worked in a juvenile sex offenders residential program years ago. I believe the Dugger controversy is just the tip of the iceberg in what went on on that house.

[Boomer]

104. You have GOT to be kidding me

Josh Duggar has the self-righteous arrogance to preach against LGBT rights on the grounds that we are a danger to children, when all this time HE was a sexual predator who sexually molested his own sisters.

Come back to me when he renounces his hatred-ridden perversion of Christianity and apologizes to the LGBT Community for his hypocrisy. Until then, stfu about compassion for this piece of scum.

[yardwork]

158. Exactly. He's been an adult for a long time.

He's chosen to act the way he does. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever. I wouldn't in any case - he is a sexual predator.

[deathrind]

108. He was just following his...

...teachings. The "good book" has numerous tales of brothers and sisters having relationships....

/end sarcasm.

No, I don't feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for the victims and how they saw a system of justice subverted to favor the predator.

[zappaman]

114. Lemme check and see...

[pnwmom]

116. I view all the kids in that family as brainwashed victims, held in isolation.

Who was teaching Josh Duggar right from wrong?

Josh is responsible for his actions as a free adult -- and his "career" has gone in a reprehensible direction. But his actions as a 13, 14, or 15 year old were those of a kid raised in an incredibly sick system, who knew no other life.

None of this is to minimize the harm done to the girls, which was enormous. But the focus of our enmity should be on the parents, not the teen.

[Jamastiene]

120. Sorry, I feel sorry for the girls, his victims,

but not him. He was older than them and should have known better. Actually, I think he did know better. He did it anyhow, because he knew he would get by with it and he did.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

121. What does the Bible say about keeping one's hands off of siblings?

This family supposed lived and breathed The Good Book; Josh had to have known it was a sin:

Leviticus 18:6 says, "None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the Lord."

Isn't Leviticus what the fucking hypocrites use to condemn homosexuals?

Yeah, no sympathy for Josh. Or his breeder parents. Or his breeder wife, for that matter. She and her family knew of his "teen mistakes" prior to them getting married.

Sympathy for the victims, and for Josh's children. Who knows if he was keeping his hands off of them.

[cmkramer]

123. ITA with you

What he did was inexcusable but he was a kid at the time and there's nothing to suggest he's repeated that behavior as an adult.

And yeah, juvenile records are supposed to be kept secret.

[Agnosticsherbet]

126. Christians teach theit children that what he did was wrong.

He and his parents are to blame.

He is responsible for his actions.

His parents did not take care of their children.

[workinclasszero]

128. Oh you feel sorry for the perv who sexual assaulted

4 of his own sisters and another girl? IOW a serial sex criminal?

Who in the past years has gone around this country speaking about the dangers that trans and gay people pose to children?

That guy? Really? A serial child sex ofender who accuses innocent people of the crimes he committed himself?

Fuck him and I hope he goes where all child molesters go in the end that flithly scum!

[truebrit71]

131. Yes.

He's a nasty little pervert who hadn't been held to account for his crimes.

The ones to feel sorry for are his victims.

[avebury]

140. I never had the impression that Josh Duggar was

actually charged for any of the sex crimes that he committed as it appears that there was a unified effort by those who were notified to cover it up. When the "authorities" made the decision to destroy the records that smacks of continued efforts to cover it up. I would think that, if there were any official records, that it would be illegal to destroy them. It seems that all the adults involved were only concerned with protecting Josh. Where were those who were concerned about the girls that he molested? I would love to hear from the family of the non-family member girl that he molested. Were they even notified what was done to their daughter?

I think that anybody with children would be foolish to allow any of the Duggars (and Josh in particular) anywhere near their children. Josh Duggar may have made his children pariahs now.

[lunatica]

143. What about all the hatred he spews as an adult?

And did he rape his sisters or 'just molest them'? No, I don't feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for his sisters.

[REP]

147. I feel sorry for the children who were assaulted, not their assailant

Sexually assault is far more serious than say drunken teenage parties or no-injury wrecked cars.

I know what my values are, and I'm not throwing them away to feel sorry for a sexual assailant.

[MADem]

148. He should have been jailed in juvenile hall. I don't feel sorry for him.

He ESCAPED justice.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost.

What it is.

[betterdemsonly]

155. Nothing will happen to him other than the duggars losing their tlc franchise

and him losing his career as a religious right politician. BooHoo!

[Dont call me Shirley]

156. I feel sorry for the innocent little girls he raped.

[arely staircase]

159. prolly nt

[Chemisse]

161. Thanks for all the great responses! My opinion has shifted because of some very good points.

While I continue to feel that juveniles should be protected from adult consequences, and I still think the boy's actions may have been partly a result of his peculiar and isolated environment with its attitude that females are there to be used, I no longer feel sympathy for Josh Duggar, the adult.

He never faced any real consequences or treatment for his crimes, and as an adult he has perpetuated hatred and intolerance, publicly and hypocritically.

[vankuria]

162. No pity from me

Josh travels all over the country slandering the LGBT community saying they are pedophiles and children are unsafe around them. His mother sent robo calls all over Arkansas to get rid of anti discrimination laws for LGBT folks. They are responsible for some of our citizens losing their rights.

They are sitting in judgment of others when Josh is the one you should not trust around your children. If this kid was smart and considering his history he would be keeping his big self righteous mouth shut, laying low, and thanking his lucky stars he never had to pay for the damage he inflicted on others.

[davidpdx]

167. I know someone who was convicted of sexual abuse as early adults

The person actually faced the consequences in front of a court of law and served time for his actions. When he got out he completed treatment and his parole while going to school. That is someone who made a mistake and truly worked to redeem himself. He was convicted of a crime, unlike Josh Duggar who will never be unless some newer allegations surface. Duggar has only embarrassed himself and his family and exposed them for the hypocrites they are. He will not appear on a sex offender list, his actions will not come up on a background check because he was never convicted due to his parent's covering the whole thing up. My point is that there are some sex offenders out there that work hard to rehabilitate themselves in the face of sex offender lists and background checks. While i would never say you should feel sorry for someone convicted of such a thing, I think empathy couldn't hurt.

[Flying Squirrel]

168. Let me just check in with a resounding "NO".

Just no.

[ancianita]

169. Girls are humans, not boys' sperm receptacles. His life isn't to be privileged as the ruined one.

His father failed him. His brothers failed him. If he's potty trained, he should have been trained to get his testicular relief in the bathroom.

No sympathy here, obviously.

Sister fuckers always got Schmuckabee to help them 'overcome.'