Gaddafi must surrender power now, says Hillary Clinton

[Evergreen Emerald]

When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; when the wicked perish, there are shouts of joy.

Gruesome details of Gadhafi's rape of teenagers and other crimes revealed
http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.570727

Ousted Libyan dictator Muammar Gadhafi kidnapped and raped hundreds of teenagers in specially built sex dungeons, according to a television documentary to be screened by the BBC next week.

Muammar Gaddafi war crimes files revealed
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/18/muammar-gaddafi-war-crimes-files

Thousands of documents that reveal in chilling detail orders from Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's senior generals to bombard and starve the people of Misrata have been gathered by war crimes investigators and are being kept at a secret location at the besieged Libyan port.

Reporter Sheds Light On 'Gaddafi's Harem'
http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2013/10/03/gaddafis-harem-book
When Moammar Gaddafi was killed by Libyan rebels in 2011, his obituaries featured a litany of the atrocities committed in his 42 year rule. But hardly a word was said about his harem: women and men who were kept trapped for Gaddafi to rape when he pleased. That world has now been brought to light through the story of one of the young woman who was in the harem.
The book focuses on the story of Soraya, whom Gaddafi met when he visited her school. She was chosen to present him with flowers. The next day she was taken from her home and put in the harem. She stayed there for five years.

Moammar Gaddafi must pay for atrocities
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/21/AR2011022103233.html

REPORTS FROM Libya Monday were sketchy and confused, but one conclusion appeared certain: The beleaguered dictatorship of Moammar Gaddafi was waging war against its own people and committing atrocities that demand not just condemnation but action by the outside world. Al-Jazeera reported that warplanes had joined security forces in attacking anti-government demonstrators in the capital,
Tripoli; human rights groups said hundreds had been killed in clashes in the country's east. Libya's own delegation to the United Nations described the regime's actions as genocide and asked for international intervention.

Gaddafi must surrender power now, says Hillary Clinton
http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/gaddafi-must-surrender-power-now-says-hillary-clinton-448744

Tripoli: An international campaign to force Colonel Moammar el-Gaddafi out of office gathered pace on Monday as the European Union (EU) adopted an arms embargo and other sanctions, as US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton bluntly told the Libyan leader to surrender power "now, without further violence or delay."

[Evergreen Emerald]

1. No tears for Gaddafi

I think sometimes that people are searching for reasons to justify their hatred of Clinton.

[Maedhros]

17. How about some tears for the rest of Libya, now that we've thrown it into chaos and misery? [n/t]

[still_one]

26. Two different issues

[Mojorabbit]

134. It is all part on the same. He is out with nothing to replace and now a huge mess. nt

[MaggieD]

21. Yep

[hrmjustin]

27. Yes. Spme will just say anything.

[cali]

2. good god but your op headline is inappropriate. I understand Gaddafi was brutal dictator

So was Saddam Hussein. Both Iraq and Libya are now failed states and torture is still rampant in Libyan prisons. But even worse than that is the civil war that is raging. Few Libyans are free from that. Do you understand that there is an immigration crisis ongoing that is worse than that under Gaddafi because people are so desperate to escape a civil war with four factions- one being ISIS- that they're taking their chances, no matter how dangerous, to get out?

That's not even addressing the regional and geopolitical dangers that have arisen.

[Evergreen Emerald]

4. Good God your post is inappropriate.

You must not remember what the Libyans lived through with the brutal ugly dictator. Yes, there is crisis in a number of places...but a brutal, violent, dictator is not the answer.

[cali]

8. have fun rejoicing. It. Is. No. Better. It. Is. Worse.

It's just bizarre and cruel to rejoice when the result has been so tragic. Leave HRC out of it. She doesn't deserve the bulk of criticism here, but just THINK.

[Evergreen Emerald]

13. Seriously

Your condescending post is inappropriate. Perhaps you should take time out to THINK.

[Maedhros]

19. Yes - think about all the citizens of Libya who have been subjected to the misery

of civil war, all because we decided to blast their country back into the stone age based upon trumped up charges of a genocide that never happened.

And you have the gall to call out Cali.

Disgusting.

[still_one]

28. food fight!!!!!!!!

[cali]

32. Thanks, I just appreciate EE changing that appalling op title.

[Evergreen Emerald]

75. Actually I changed it before your post

Your opinion is meaningless to me.

[cali]

119. Actually, it was still the bible quote when I posted first in your thread

When you post something reflecting critical thinking, I might be interested in what you have to say, and not just appalled by it.



kisses

[Evergreen Emerald]

125. Right back atcha

[Agschmid]

42. I don't think for a minute they were "gleeful"...

[cali]

65. did you see the original op title?

It was a biblical quote about rejoicing

[Agschmid]

67. No, and I have he hardest time looking at the permalink on my phone.

I'll check it out when I get home.

[Purveyor]

62. +1000 indeed. eom

[Exilednight]

74. I heard several other public servants say the same thing about Iraq and Saddam. I believe they were

George W Bush and Richard Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld and the rest of the GOP.

Is that the company you really want to keep?

[1939]

115. And the Iraqis?

Saddam and his sons were as bad/worse than Khaddafi Duck. If Hillary is justified in taking out Khaddafi, then Bush was justified in taking out Saddam.

[MannyGoldstein]

3. And the results speak for themselves

A failed state.

ISIS

[Evergreen Emerald]

5. Gaddafi was not the answer!

I am so surprised at your response. Are you blaming Clinton for the state of Libya?

If so, I want to let you know that it is ok not to support her without making up shit about her to justify your feelings towards her.

[MannyGoldstein]

6. Gaddafi's overthrow is not connected with Libya becoming

the horror it is today?

[JaneyVee]

16. As opposed to the wonderful tourist destination it was under Qaddafi.

[MannyGoldstein]

18. Let's start by recognizing that you've moved the goalposts

which certainly tends to indicate something.

As to the new question:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/10/20/the-descent-of-libya/

In 1967 Colonel Gaddafi inherited one of the poorest nations in Africa; however, by the time he was assassinated, Gaddafi had turned Libya into Africa’s wealthiest nation. Libya had the highest GDP per capita and life expectancy on the continent. Less people lived below the poverty line than in the Netherlands.

After NATO’s intervention in 2011, Libya is now a failed state and its economy is in shambles. As the government’s control slips through their fingers and into to the militia fighters’ hands, oil production has all but stopped.

You're claiming that this (and every other article I've read on the subject is wrong, and that things are bettr in Libya today than under Gaddafi?

[hrmjustin]

35. Are you saying Gaddafi was a good leader?

[MannyGoldstein]

38. Did I write that?

He was no treat, but the status quo is far worse.

[hrmjustin]

39. I am asking you to clarrify.

He was a dictator and I will not shed a tear for him.

[MannyGoldstein]

44. I don't shed any tears for Gaddafi, either

where we may possibly differ is that I do shed a tear for the dire worsening of the average Libyan's lot in life after his overthrow.

[hrmjustin]

50. Why do you think the people rebelled?

[MannyGoldstein]

53. What percentage rebelled?

Who were they, specifically?

Would they have overthrown Gaddafi without our help?

[hrmjustin]

56. They were in the process of rebelling when we decided to aid them.

And a large number of the country rebelled.

[polly7]

54. The 'people' didn't rebel.

CIA trained and backed members of Al Quaeda 'rebelled' and with enough false propaganda and many, many lies to the UN by those same Al Quaeda 'leaders' a 'humanitarian intervention' was gotten. You really need to read up on all of this. It's a bit more complicated than Quaddafi was a bad man.

[hrmjustin]

57. lol oh please. The people rebelled.

Yes we helped but they wanted him gone.

[polly7]

58. For the love of god, educate yourself a bit.

...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6716466

[hrmjustin]

72. Your link is bad and your first video says washington times.

[polly7]

77. Sorry you're so scared of a video, it's a timeline of the horror and compilation of hundreds of NEWS

articles from around the world. I personally would hate to live in a bubble being afraid to look at something, but that's your choice.

[hrmjustin]

79. I don't believe rw material. it is like watching RT.

[polly7]

81. That's rich! Lmao.

Exactly what I was told when I used Al Jazeera as a source when people were saying the exact same things you do here in support of decimating a people and their nation.

[hrmjustin]

83. Al Jazeera is a great news source.

Rt and the washington times are not.

[polly7]

84. Don't watch the video, I couldn't care less! Good grief, what a show. nt.

[hrmjustin]

85. I agree, what a show.

[polly7]

86. Yeah, eh? nt.

[hrmjustin]

87. You can go on if you like.

Enjoy your day.

[polly7]

88. You too! nt.

[truebrit71]

90. You are way out of your depth here....

... as are the thousands of immigrants that are drowning in their attempt to get away from the hell hole US foreign policy, and your gal HRC, helped create....

[hrmjustin]

92. I guess i am just too stupid to keep up.

[truebrit71]

95. Stupid? I didn't say that, you did....

... but you seem to be missing several very important facts...

[hrmjustin]

96. I am well aware of the current situation.

[truebrit71]

97. And you're fine with it?

...

[hrmjustin]

98. No it is very tragic.

[truebrit71]

99. And it could have been avoided, yes?

[hrmjustin]

100. it might have happened whether we helped or not.

They rebelled and if Gaddafi won he might have faced a second rebellion.

Having said that we coukd have done a better job with the aftermath.

[truebrit71]

101. Or we could have simply just not bombed the fuck out of them....

... as another option, right?

[hrmjustin]

102. Yes. If we chose that the rebels would likely have been killed and Gaddafi left in charge.

[truebrit71]

104. And those people escaping the current clusterfuck..

... wouldn't have had to risk their lives escaping said clusterfuck, right?

[hrmjustin]

105. Maybe or maybe not.

We don't know if gaddafi would have withstood a second rebbelion.

[truebrit71]

106. But we do know that bombing the shit out of them created this current mess, yes?

... so it might have been a better idea to do something other than just bombing them, right?

[hrmjustin]

107. After your rude responses to me in the other thread we are done.

Enjoy your day.

[truebrit71]

108. So that's it?

You're just going to run away when it looked like you were finally seeing things in a new light? I am disappointed.

[hrmjustin]

109. Next time be polite.

Bye.

[truebrit71]

110. Oh trust me, that's highly unlikely....

....

[hrmjustin]

111. Yes that is obvious.

[truebrit71]

114. As are you.

[hrmjustin]

116. Back at you too.

[GummyBearz]

143. Well when you run out of any space for a logical argument you can always pull that one I guess

lol... HRC personality cultists

[hrmjustin]

144. You are calling me names.

[GummyBearz]

145. Really?

What name did I call you?

[hrmjustin]

146. Hillary personality cultists

Or did I read you wrong?

[GummyBearz]

147. I think *you* interpretted it wrong

A general statement isn't the same thing as calling *you* a name.... Take it as *you* will though.

I tried to be clear with the whole *you* thing this time, for *you*

[hrmjustin]

148. You have a lovely night.

[jwirr]

63. None of us are saying that. What we are saying is that we have not made it much better by

deposing their leaders.

The ME and Northern Africa are in total chaos today in failed states that will not end anytime soon. Their infrastructure is one hell of a mess and their economies are also failing. Their people are fleeing. Their new leaders are often as bad as the old leaders.

This is what happens when instead of letting democracy develop on its own like ours did we (CIA & MIC) go in and make the changes WE want. When we pick and choose their leaders for them. Often we arm whatever side we think will be favorable to our needs and encourage more fighting. And this did not start with Hillary. We have been doing this since the end of WWII.

[hrmjustin]

64. But the people were in the process of rebelling.

We could not stop that.

[jwirr]

70. I do not want us to stop them. I just do not want to second quess them and do it for them. That

would be like our own Revolution. If Lafayette had come over here and chosen our president - some Frenchman who was going to just take the place of King George.

The idea that we are the only ones who should be in charge of the world is a very arrogant idea. And we have been playing with it since the end of WWII but especially since the fall of the USSR.

[hrmjustin]

71. I respect your view.

[jwirr]

76. Thank you.

[hrmjustin]

78. You're welcome!

[Scootaloo]

91. They were rebelling in Bahrain, too, but we helped crush them to a paste

They were rebelling in Egypt, but we kept telling Mubarak we had his back - and demonstrated it after he fell by refusing to work with Morsi, and immediately endorsing and supporting a mass-murdering military junta that overthrew Egypt's budding democracy. Right now we are arming Saudi Arabia (another violent crusher of dissent) against another long-running rebellion in Yemen

Strange isn't it how Libya and Syria were the only Arab spring rebellions the United States saw fit to "help." Funny too that both are now major hotspots for Daesh.

[Scootaloo]

89. Better than the people running the joint now, at least

[BainsBane]

36. Many argue Haiti was worse off after its Revolution of 1791

that by 1804 overturned slavery. Haiti certainly became poorer than the rest of the sugar colonies. Does that mean the French were better rulers and that the slaves and free people of color should not have rebelled?

[MannyGoldstein]

41. When did we start talking about Haiti? nt

[BainsBane]

49. It's a historical anaology

Last edited Sat May 23, 2015, 04:42 PM - Edit history (1)

You are arguing against what was in fact a popular rebellion by saying the country was better off under Qaddafi. The rebellion in Libya wasn't begun by the US. It was a popular uprising that was going on for sometime before NATO decided to assist the rebels with airstrikes. I cited Haiti as a historical parallel. It is probably the most dramatic example of a revolution that was followed by a dramatic decline in the economic standing of the colony/nation. Do you have any basis for opposing the action in Libya other than the fact Clinton was Secretary of State at the time and made a video people like to use against her? Do you mean to delegitmate popular uprisings generally, or just when major powers intervene in them? (France in the American Revolution, for example. Or European involvement in the Napoleonic Wars, which had repercussions for Haiti)? Or is the sum total of your political thought--Clinton bad, and anyone in her cross hairs must be good?

[polly7]

51. The 'Popular Uprising' LIE that's been debunked time after time?

Were you one of those claiming the Iraqi's were in the streets with flowers too?

[treestar]

126. It's a good one, and you will not get a direct answer

Sidestepping and dodging only.

[EX500rider]

80. It's the whole "But the trains ran on time" argument. n/t

[okaawhatever]

120. Yeah, ommm.....total bullshit. Not surprising since your source is counterpunch/global

research. Even less surprising, the author cited no source for his statistics.

Here's a dose of reality for you:

According to the United Nations, 40 per cent of Libya's population of 6.4 million live below the poverty line, with no benefit from Libya's oil reserves, which are the largest in Africa and the ninth largest in the world.

http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/home/
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/poverty-persists-in-libya-despite-oil-riches

As for the Netherlands, they did face a sharp increase in poverty post-Housing collapse, but came nowhere near Libya.

The report uses two measures of poverty: the low income threshold, defined in 2011 as a monthly income of 960 euros for a single person and 1.810 euros for a family with two children, and the "modest but adequate" threshold of 1.020 and 1.920 euros, respectively.

Projections for 2012 predict that the percentage of people in poverty will rise further to 7,5%

http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/home/default.htm?Languageswitch=on

So in the Netherlands, 7.5% of people lived on less than 960 Euros per month.
In Libya, about 40% of people lived on less than $1.25 per day. That would explain all those Dutch people paying human smugglers to get them into Libya so they could live the high life.

Second:
Libya having the highest GDP per capita for the continent of Africa is bullshit.

1 Qatar 143,427
2 Luxembourg 92,049
3 Singapore 82,762
4 Brunei 73,233
5 Kuwait 71,020
6 Norway 66,937
7 United Arab Emirates 64,479
8 San Marino 60,664
9 Switzerland 58,087
— Hong Kong 54,722
10 United States 54,597
11 Saudi Arabia 52,183
12 Bahrain 51,714
13 Ireland 49,195
14 Netherlands 47,355

Source IMF/World Bank

[MannyGoldstein]

121. I clicked on your first link, I see nothing about Libya

Am I missing something?

[okaawhatever]

122. The Libyan poverty number is an estimate from the United Nations. Libya didn't provide data

on its economy so the numbers have to be estimated. Of course, again your source didn't even bother to provide verification.

[MannyGoldstein]

123. Is that estimate in the first link you provided?

I don't see it.

[polly7]

48. Wtf? Tourist destination???

Libyan people enjoyed the highest standard of living in the area. They had stable jobs, homes, health-care, education, women's rights and, as opposed to all the LIES told about a 'popular uprising', the majority of those in Libya DID NOT WANT WAR.

Why would it matter to them if anyone saw Libya as a tourist destination? It's not fucking all about us! Now, they're fleeing the beheadings, kidnappings, murder, by the thousands and dying at sea - probably just tourists trying to get to Europe.

[mainer]

132. Libya WAS a tourist destination. I was there.

I visited Libya with a group of astronomers. We were allowed to wander freely, no government minders. We visited clinics (unannounced, driven there spur of the moment by taxi drivers). We met randomly with Bedouin in the desert. We spoke with university students -- men and women (the women only in headscarves, not burqas, and with far better English than the men). We marveled at the ruins of Leptis Magna. A resort was planned, by the way, for future tourists who would someday see Leptis Magna.

Now that future is gone, all gone. Destroyed by war.

[polly7]

136. I'm sorry Mainer.

I had forgotten about you posting that a long time ago when the bombing was going on. You had some wonderful insights into the Libya that was, and many people here greatly appreciated hearing them.

[world wide wally]

12. Maybe we don't get to say who runs every country in the world.

Noting that Iraq and the entire ME was more stable under Sadaam Hussein is not the same as advocating for him. The same would then have to be true for Gadaffy and Lybian.
One thing is for certain. It is not our place to determine all these things ....so, now what do we do?

[Octafish]

14. Do you know anything about Libya under Gaddafi?

The guy was actually using his nation's oil wealth to -- gasp -- make life better for Libyans.

And Libya -- horrors -- was using its wealth to make life better for neighboring nations.

That sounds like a madman, all right, compared to the Saudis and Kuwaitis.

[leftofcool]

29. Never mind that he was a rapist, a pedophile and a murderer.

[Octafish]

40. Per PNAC, yes. And how many thousands have drowned trying to escape the terror in the new Libya?

That we've documented. PNAC also pushed for war on Iraq, Syria, Iran, and now Ukraine.

Neocons and Liberals Together, Again

The neoconservative Project for the New American Century (PNAC) has signaled its intention to continue shaping the government's national security...

Tom Barry, last updated: February 02, 2005

The neoconservative Project for the New American Century (PNAC) has signaled its intention to continue shaping the government's national security strategy with a new public letter stating that the "U.S. military is too small for the responsibilities we are asking it to assume." Rather than reining in the imperial scope of U.S. national security strategy as set forth by the first Bush administration, PNAC and the letter's signatories call for increasing the size of America's global fighting machine.

SNIP...

Liberal Hawks Fly with the Neocons

The recent PNAC letter to Congress was not the first time that PNAC or its associated front groups, such as the Coalition for the Liberation of Iraq, have included hawkish Democrats.

Two PNAC letters in March 2003 played to those Democrats who believed that the invasion was justified at least as much by humanitarian concerns as it was by the purported presence of weapons of mass destruction. PNAC and the neocon camp had managed to translate their military agenda of preemptive and preventive strikes into national security policy. With the invasion underway, they sought to preempt those hardliners and military officials who opted for a quick exit strategy in Iraq. In their March 19th letter, PNAC stated that Washington should plan to stay in Iraq for the long haul: "Everyone-those who have joined the coalition, those who have stood aside, those who opposed military action, and, most of all, the Iraqi people and their neighbors-must understand that we are committed to the rebuilding of Iraq and will provide the necessary resources and will remain for as long as it takes."

Along with such neocon stalwarts as Robert Kagan, Bruce Jackson, Joshua Muravchik, James Woolsey, and Eliot Cohen, a half-dozen Democrats were among the 23 individuals who signed PNAC's first letter on post-war Iraq. Among the Democrats were Ivo Daalder of the Brookings Institution and a member of Clinton's National Security Council staff; Martin Indyk, Clinton's ambassador to Israel; Will Marshall of the Progressive Policy Institute and Democratic Leadership Council; Dennis Ross, Clinton's top adviser on the Israel-Palestinian negotiations; and James Steinberg, Clinton's deputy national security adviser and head of foreign policy studies at Brookings. A second post-Iraq war letter by PNAC on March 28 called for broader international support for reconstruction, including the involvement of NATO, and brought together the same Democrats with the prominent addition of another Brookings' foreign policy scholar, Michael O'Hanlon.

CONTINUED...

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/articles/display/Neocons_and_Liberals_Together_Again

That's from Rightweb. They're full of facts, for those who take the time to read and learn. One name to pay attention to is Victoria Nuland, our woman in Ukraine, who is married to PNAC co-founder Robert Kagan, whose brother is Frederick Kagan. Frederick Kagan's spouse is Kimberly Kagan.

Brilliant people, big ideas, etc. The thing is, that's a lot of PNAC. And the PNAC approach to international relations means more wars without end for profits without cease, among other things detrimental to peace, justice and democracy. You know, the "money trumps peace" crowd.

[BainsBane]

37. Does that mean you don't think a people have a right

to rise up against a government you think is better than some others? There was a popular revolt against his rule, inspired by the Arab spring. NATO entered the conflict well after that rebellion was underway.

[R B Garr]

82. Yeah, they like to skip the main course and go right to dessert, which is

an anti-Hillary, anti-U.S. all-you-can-eat buffet. No context necessary.

[BainsBane]

94. Exactly

They start with Clinton and work backward. Nothing else matters.

[Octafish]

124. No, that's what you said. I said Gaddafi used the oil revenues to make life better for Libyans...

...and neighboring nations. Here's more information on his plan to distribute oil revenue directly to the Libyan people (pardon its GOOGLE translation):

2008 - Muammar Gaddafi calling for the distribution of oil revenues directly to Libyans, and the dismantling of most of the ministries with retaining only the four of them : defense and Security , Justice and Foreign Affairs.

Libya : state control of the economy resulted in the theft and corruption

Qatari newspaper Al-Sharq

In a time when the world financial crisis hit most of the countries, including the major stronghold of capitalist systems and invite economists to more state intervention in the economy to deal with this crisis alone in Libya in 2008 and through its leader Muammar Gaddafi calling for the distribution of oil revenues directly to Libyans , and the dismantling of most of the ministries with retaining only the four of them : defense and Security , Justice and Foreign Affairs.

The Muammar Al Gaddafi after accusations by the administrative system of failing to implement the decisions of the Libyans , saying that the state control of the economy resulted in the theft and corruption , and therefore called for the distribution of the state budget directly to the families , which he estimated in the range of 500 thousand families , or three million people evenly by five thousand dinars per month per family , or by a thousand dinars per month per person .

CONTINUED...

http://www.algaddafi.org/home-page-2---algathafiorg-algaddafiorg-ghadaffi-official-website-kadhafi-site-officiel/muammar-gaddafi-calling-for-the-distribution-of-oil-revenues-directly-to-libyans

The reason I bring that up is that the Corporate Owned News have failed to mention it much, even once from what I've heard.

Oh, BainsBane: That's a big difference from saying that I oppose democracy.

[treestar]

133. So he was a benign dictator?

So what, he was a dictator. People don't care about comfort when they don't have their freedom. It's close to idiotic racists who claim the slaves had it better under slavery, employed and cared for from cradle to grave. So it's just fine to live under a dictator so long as he makes life tolerably comfortable for you? Oh except you can get jailed for criticizing him. I love that, from the same people who so enjoy their freedom to criticize our leaders.

[Octafish]

149. I know he wasn't racist. He is an example of a person of color the USA has found easy to kill.

On six continents.

[BainsBane]

139. That is true

The media has not mentioned it at all. He was always portrayed as a terrorist leader and dictator, nothing more. Still, there was a popular uprising, and I affirm the right of any people to determine their own government, even when I don't like the form that government takes. That is a separate question from whether the US had any business intervening.

[polly7]

142. No, it wasn't a popular uprising. A lie that's been completely debunked and

was proven so even at the time.

[polly7]

7. Lots and lots of lies, but I guess that's what it took

Last edited Sat May 23, 2015, 04:02 PM - Edit history (5)

to fulfill the PNAC objective of overthrowing yet another country. "7 countries in 5 years!" This was NO "Humanitarian Intervention", and certainly not for all those migrants Qaddafi had allowed in over decades, Qaddafi loyalists and others who were raped, tortured, mutilated, hung, burned to death .... all known of by the NATO 'humanitarian team'.

It was a bullshit, self-serving, western funded and backed coup against yet another sovereign nation not yet indebted to the IMF and controlling its own resources, not to mention not allowing U.S. bases 'Africom' into all of Africa.

Some of these links don't work anymore, but read and discover just what a sham this was and why. The video at the end is particularly interesting.

The Untold Story in Libya
Posted by polly7 in General Discussion
Tue Oct 18th 2011, 10:06 AM
In May 2010, Libya was voted on to the UN Human Rights Council by a huge majority. The UN Watch's campaign to remove Libya from the Human Rights Council began immediately.

In March, 2011, a report, containing positive quotes from UN diplomatic delegations in many countries, was due to be presented by the UN Human Rights Council, leading to a Resolution commending Libya's progress in a wide aspect of human rights (listed in the article). March 19, 2011, the attack on Libya began.

Libya was one of only five countries without a Rothschild model central bank, Quaddafi openly discussed, in 2009, the nationalization of US, UK, Germany, Spain, Norway, Canada and Italy's oil companies, switching to the gold dinar - a single African currency that would serve as an alternative to the U.S. dollar and allow African nations to share the wealth. Libya has an abundance of water - Gaddafi’s Great Man-Made River Project project offers limitless amounts of water for Libyans and would allow them to be totally self-sufficient. In the near-future, water will be the next resource equated with money and power, other countries may be dependent on its reserves. A self-sufficient, dictator-ruled nation with control over some of the world’s most precious resource waves a big red warning flag.

In 2010 Gaddafi made a motion to the UN General Assembly to investigate the circumstances of the invasion of Iraq. He was also wasting the west's ....... 'libya's' oil on free education, housing, tolerance of immigrants, raising the standard of living in Africa, lowering infant mortality while raising life expectancy.

Many of these things are completely similar to what we learned of Iraq.

*************************************************************************************************

Yes, simply put, Nato's member nations are trying to steer back Libya Central Bank into the mainstream financial structure, under the watching eyes of the World Bank and the International Monetary Funds, to provide (reconstruction) funds to Libya with hefty interests payments - and transform a country which was free of debts into a heavily indebted country - as done everywhere else in sub-Saharan African countries.

http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/graphs...
http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/arcvol...

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From a 'no fly zone to all out bombing of targets called out by rebels'. NATO's high-precision bombing preceeded 'rebel' incursions.

http://antemedius.com/content/libya-r2p-no...

"It's now common knowledge that British SAS, French intelligence, US Central Intelligence Agency assets, Qatar special forces and mercenaries of all stripes were parachuted as boots on the ground for months, planning and training the "rebels" and in close coordination with that philanthropic prodigy, NATO.

That was never the UN mandate - but who cares? NATO/GCC paid the bills, NATO conducted the bombing and NATO/GCC will "stabilize" the mess, according to a 70-page plan leaked by the British to Rupert Murdoch'sz Times of London."

"Expect local - and global - fireworks as far as grabbing the loot is concerned. Without even considering the (still unexplored) oil and gas wealth, Libya's foreign assets are worth at least $150 billion. Libya's central bank, now about to be privatized, has no less than 143.8 tons of gold. Then there's at least a millennium supply of fresh water, which had started to be harnessed by Gaddafi via the spectacular, multibillion dollar Great Man-Made River (GMR) project."

*************************************************************************************************

"Oil-rich but with a relatively small population of 6.6. million, Gadhafi's Libya welcomed hundreds of thousands of black Africans looking for work in recent decades. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/01/l...

*************************************************************************************************

NATO’s War on Libya is an Attack on African Development–Dan Glazebrook

6 09 2011

http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/tag/afr... /

To prevent this ‘threat of African development’, the Europeans and the USA have responded in the only way they know how – militarily. Four years ago, the US set up a new “command and control centre” for the military subjugation of the Africa, called AFRICOM. The problem for the US was that no African country wanted to host them; indeed, until very recently, Africa was unique in being the only continent in the world without a US military base. And this fact is in no small part, thanks to the efforts of the Libyan government.
Before Gaddafi’s revolution deposed the British-backed King Idris in 1969, Libya had hosted one of the world’s biggest US airbases, the Wheelus Air Base; but within a year of the revolution, it had been closed down and all foreign military personnel expelled.
More recently, Gaddafi had been actively working to scupper AFRICOM. African governments that were offered money by the US to host a base were typically offered double by Gaddafi to refuse it, and in 2008 this ad-hoc opposition crystallised into a formal rejection of AFRICOM by the African Union.

*************************************************************************************************

The force used by the occupier to displace the old regime always makes sure the new regime is supine and complaint. The National Transitional Council, made up of former Gadhafi loyalists, Islamists and tribal leaders, many of whom detest each other, will be the West’s vehicle for the reconfiguration of Libya. Libya will return to being the colony it was before Gadhafi and the other young officers in 1969 ousted King Idris, who among other concessions had let Standard Oil write Libya’s petroleum laws. Gadhafi’s defiance of Western commercial interests, which saw the nationalization of foreign banks and foreign companies, along with the oil industry, as well as the closure of U.S. and British air bases, will be reversed. The despotic and collapsed or collapsing regimes in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Syria once found their revolutionary legitimacy in the pan-Arabism of Egypt’s Gamal Abdel Nasser. But these regimes fell victim to their own corruption, decay and brutality. None were worth defending. Their disintegration, however, heralds a return of the corporate and imperial power that spawned figures like Nasser and will spawn his radical 21st century counterparts.

Libya: Here We Go Again

Monday 5 September 2011
by: Chris Hedges, Truthdig | Op-Ed

http://www.truthout.com/libya-here-we-go-a...

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LIBYA: Rebels execute black immigrants while forces kidnap others

http://somalilandpress.com/libya-rebels-ex...

"Many Africans have virtually nothing after years in Libya, many have been looted, robbed, while others saw their living quarters and apartments go in flames. Now they are praying to God to send them home.
While the international leaders are busy drafting resolutions to dismantle Muammar Gaddafi, the African Union has not yet commented on the situation in Libya.

Meanwhile, the International Criminal Court is said to have started a formal inquiry into possible crimes against humanity in Libya that will investigate the Libyan regime."

*************************************************************************************************

JohnPilger.com
8 September 2011

http://johnpilger.com/articles/hail-to-the...

..."I quote that not so much for its Orwellian quality but as a model of journalism's role in justifying "our" bloodbaths in advance.
This is Rupert's Revolution, after all. Gone from the Murdoch press are pejorative "insurgents". The action in Libya, says The Times, is "a revolution... as revolutions used to be". That it is a coup by a gang of Muammar Gaddafi's ex cronies and spooks in collusion with Nato is hardly news.

The self-appointed "rebel leader", Mustafa Abdul Jalil, was Gaddafi's feared justice minister. The CIA runs or bankrolls most of the rest, including America's old friends, the Mujadeen Islamists who spawned al-Qaeda.
They told journalists what they needed to know: that Gaddafi was about to commit "genocide", of which there was no evidence, unlike the abundant evidence of "rebel" massacres of black African workers falsely accused of being mercenaries. European bankers' secret transfer of the Central Bank of Libya from Tripoli to "rebel" Benghazi by European bankers in order to control the country's oil billions was an epic heist of little .

*************************************************************************************************

Sirte a 'living hell,' says aid group

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/co...

Tuesday 04 October 2011 by Our Foreign Desk Printable Email

A Red Cross team finally entered the besieged Libyan town of Sirte yesterday and delivered urgently needed surgical supplies to treat about 200 wounded people.

Nato has repeatedly targeted Sirte in its seven-month bombing campaign that enabled armed rebels to topple the government of Muammar Gadaffi and gain control of most of the oil-rich state.

*************************************************************************************************

Absolutely horrible to use rape as a propaganda weapon for war, while ignoring the reality of it for all those brutalized, raped and some, murdered by the NATO supported 'rebels' - just one example of their many atrocities.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2174087

http://andrewgavinmarshall.com/2011/08/26/lies-war-and-empire-nato’s-“humanitarian-imperialism”-in-libya

In early March of 2011, news headlines in Western nations reported that Gaddafi would kill half a million people.

<1> On March 18, as the UN agreed to launch air strikes on Libya, it was reported that Gaddafi had begun an assault against the rebel-held town of Benghazi. The Daily Mail reported that Gaddafi had threatened to send in his African mercenaries to crush the rebellion.<2> Reports of Libyan government tanks sitting outside Benghazi poised for an invasion were propagated in the Western media.<3> In the lead-up to the United Nations imposing a no-fly zone, reports spread rapidly through the media of Libyan government jets bombing the rebels.<4> Even in February, the New York Times – the sacred temple for the ‘stenographers of power’ we call “journalists” – reported that Gaddafi was amassing “thousands of mercenaries” to defend Tripoli and crush the rebels.<5>

Italy’s Foreign Minister declared that over 1,000 people were killed in the fighting in February, citing the number as “credible.”<6> Even a top official with Human Rights Watch declared the rebels to be “peaceful protesters” who “are nice, sincere people who want a better future for Libya.”<7> The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights declared that “thousands” of people were likely killed by Gaddafi, “and called for international intervention to protect civilians.”<8> In April, reports spread near and far at lightning speed of Gaddafi’s forces using rape as a weapon of war, with the first sentence in a Daily Mail article declaring, “Children as young as eight are being raped in front of their families by Gaddafi’s forces in Libya,” with Gaddafi handing out Viagra to his troops in a planned and organized effort to promote rape.<9>

As it turned out, these claims – as posterity notes – turned out to be largely false and contrived. Doctors Without Borders and Amnesty International both investigated the claims of rape, and “have found no first-hand evidence in Libya that rapes are systematic and being used as part of war strategy,” and their investigations in Eastern Libya “have not turned up significant hard evidence supporting allegations of rapes by Qaddafi’s forces.” Yet, just as these reports came out, Hillary Clinton declared that the U.S. is “deeply concerned by reports of wide-scale rape” in Libya.<10> Even U.S. military and intelligence officials had to admit that, “there is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas”; at the same time Susan Rice, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, “told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti-impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.”<


Untrue, says US

US says Gadhafi troops issued Viagra, raping victims
Allegation suggests troops encouraged to turn to sexual violence, envoys say

By Louis Charbonneau
updated 4/28/2011 9:31:26 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS — The U.S. envoy to the United Nations told the Security Council Thursday that troops loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi were increasingly engaging in sexual violence and some had been issued the impotency drug Viagra, diplomats said.

Several U.N. diplomats who attended a closed-door Security Council meeting on Libya told Reuters that U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice raised the Viagra issue in the context of increasing reports of sexual violence by Gadhafi's troops.

"Rice raised that in the meeting but no one responded," a diplomat said on condition of anonymity. The allegation was first reported by a British newspaper.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42809612/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa#.TqXeG96ImU8


US intel: No evidence of Viagra as weapon in Libya

http://www.msnbc .msn.com/id/42824884/ns/world_news-mide...

UN Ambassador Rice reportedly had said drug was being used in systematic rapes
NBC News and news services updated 4/29/2011 1:52:00 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS — There is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas, US military and intelligence officials told NBC News on Friday.

Diplomats said Thursday that US Ambassador Susan Rice told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti- impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.

While rape has been a weapon of choice in many other African conflicts, the US officials say they've seen no such reports out of Libya.


*************************************************************************************************

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...
bvar22:

The Untold Story in Libya:

How The West Cooked Up The People's Uprising

http://whowhatwhy.com/2011/08/31/now-that-... ... /

The Global Disaster Capitalists never let a good disaster go to waste.
In the case of Libya, they used their Enforcement Arm (NATO & The US Military) to CREATE a disaster where there was none.

” For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/M...

*************************************************************************************************
Libya: Oil, Banks, Water, the United Nations, and America’s Holy Crusade by Felicity Arbuthnot

Posted on April 5, 2011 by dandelionsalad

.."The country was commended: “for the progress made in the achievement of the Millennium Development Goals, namely universal primary education (and) firm commitment (to) health care.” There was “praise” for “cooperation with international organizations in combating human trafficking and corruption ..” and for cooperation with “the International Organization for Migration.”

“Progress in enjoyment of economic and social rights, including in the areas of education, health care, poverty reduction and social welfare” with “measures taken to promote transparency”, were also cited. Malaysia: “Commended the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya for being party to a significant number of international and regional human rights instruments.” Promotion: “of the rights of persons with disabilities” and praise for “measures taken with regard to low income families”, were cited...

.."So how does the all tie together? Libya, in March being praised by the Majority of the UN., for human rights progress across the board, to being the latest, bombarded international pariah? A nation’s destruction enshrined in a UN., Resolution?
The answer lies in part with the Geneva based UN Watch.(vii) UN Watch is : “a non-governmental organization whose mandate is to monitor the performance of the United Nations.” With Consultative Status to the UN Economic and Social Council, with ties to the UN Department of Public Information, “UN Watch is affiliated with the American Jewish Committee.” (AJC.)"

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2011/0... /

Interesting ..... the involvement in HR Watch of persons whose core values include securing energy resources.



And I think we're going to be shocked and disgusted as more and more information comes out.

Check this out - 'The Humanitarian War' = http://www.laguerrehumanitaire.fr/english It's horrifying.

A bunch of LIES submitted to the ICC ..... by the UN - who got their 'numbers and crimes' from the NTC Prime Minister - 'word to ear'. Pages and pages redacted.

No Evidence? No Problem!!

Exposed: The "Humanitarian" War In Libya

Must Watch Video

How the CIA Used "Libyan Expatriates" To Engineer Consent For Regime Change

One of the main sources for the claim that Qaddafi was killing his own people is the Libyan League for Human Rights (LLHR), an organization linked to the International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH). On Feb. 21, 2011, LLHR General Secretary Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir initiated a petition in collaboration with the organization U.N. Watch and the National Endowment for Democracy. This petition was signed by more than 70 NGOs.

Then a few days later, on Feb. 25, Dr. Bouchuiguir went to the U.N. Human Rights Council in order to expose the allegations concerning the crimes of Qaddafi’s government. In July 2011 we went to Geneva to interview Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir.

"How to circumvent international law and justice 101." - originally published by http://laguerrehumanitaire.fr

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29428.htm


*************************************************************************************************
What you don't know about the libyan crisis:

...

**************************************************************************************************

Colonel Muammar Gaddafi died after being stabbed with a bayonet in the anus and not in a firefight as originally claimed by Libyan authorities, according to a report on the Libyan dictator's last hours.

Two Nato missiles forced the group to leave the cars and escape on foot, seeking shelter in a drainage ditch. A bodyguard hurled grenades at approaching militiamen but one grenade "hit the concrete wall and bounced back to fall between Muammar Gaddafi and Abu Bakr Younis", Younis junior said.

"The shrapnel hit my father and he fell down to the ground. Muammar Gaddafi was also injured by the grenade, on the left side of his head," he said.

New York-based Human Rights Watch said Gaddafi was already bleeding from head wounds caused by blast shrapnel as he tried to flee Sirte, his hometown.

The charity obtained unedited mobile footage that showed militia fighters abusing Gaddafi as they took him into custody in October 2011.

"As he was being led on to the main road, a militiaman stabbed him in his anus with what appears to have been a bayonet, causing another rapidly bleeding wound," the report said.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaddafi-killed-bayonet-stab-anus-libya-395224

The Grand Finale - sodomized with a bayonet (edit: when I watched it live, it looked like a stick), beaten, tortured and murdered in the street - "We came, we saw ....... he died, lol".

**************************************************************************************************

Britain, Libya and the Mediterranean - The Creation of a Humanitarian Emergency

by Dan Glazebrook / May 1st, 2015

Last week’s drownings in the Mediterranean were the foreseeable, and indeed deliberate, a result of the anti-human policies of strategic violence by a dying neo-colonial empire. They were the consequence, firstly, of a series of wars of aggression that have made life intolerable across vast swathes of Africa and West Asia, and, secondly, of the fateful EU decision last November to end Italy’s search-and-rescue programme, Mare Nostrum. This much has been admitted by politicians and commentators from across the entire British political establishment, from Nigel Farage and the Daily Telegraph to David Cameron and Ed Miliband. Whilst these admissions have often been tempered with caveats, denials, distortions and half-truths, the hideous reality behind them is increasingly impossible to deny.

NATO’s war of aggression against Libya in 2011 turned the country over to racist death squads, with hundreds of sub-Saharan migrant workers and black Libyans beaten and burnt to death by the ‘revolutionaries’ and tens of thousands illegally detained and tortured by the militias. Tawergha, the only black African town on the Mediterranean, and formerly home to around 30,000 people, is now a ghost town after NATO’s shock troops – militias with names like the ‘Brigades for the purging of black skins’ – ‘ethnically cleansed’ the region. Last week’s butchering of 30 Ethiopian workers by ISIS is but the latest chapter in the anti-African pogroms that have characterised the Libyan insurgency from the very start. This is the reality of NATO’s ‘Libyan revolution’ (led by AbdulHakim BelHaj, now leader of ISIS in Libya) and it is precisely this from which black Africans in Libya are now fleeing. As Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi put it, “a person has to risk his life because he needs to escape from a situation where they are chopping off the heads of those near him”.

And this head-chopping has not been restricted to Libya’s borders. NATO’s war has boosted head-choppers across the entire region, from Tunisia and Algeria to Mali, Nigeria and Cameroon. Before 2011, Boko Haram barely existed. Today, thanks to NATO opening up Libya’s arsenals to them and their friends, they are killing hundreds every week, often burning them alive in churches and mosques. As one Nigerian told a reporter last week, “We prefer to die trying (to migrate) than stay back there and die….Stay at home and get shot dead or maybe burnt to death; I just prefer to die while trying or survive.”

Yet the Libyan war itself is only the latest in a long series of acts of aggression launched by the British state and its allies, all of which continue to have disastrous consequences across the entire Middle East and North Africa region. A look at the list of where the migrants come from makes this devastatingly clear. The majority of the world’s refugees come from one of three countries: Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria. What all have in common is that they have all been subject to vicious terror campaigns by Britain, the USA and their allies: whether directly, as in Afghanistan; through allied states, as with the US-backed Ethiopian invasion of Somalia in 2006 (which toppled the first stable government the country had had in decades); or through the provision of cash, weapons and diplomatic cover to sectarian death squads, as in the case of Syria. Yemen is the latest additional source of refugees, with the Saudi bombing campaign bringing new arrivals to almost 10,000 per week.

Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/05/britain-libya-and-the-mediterranean/

Behind Every Refugee Stands an Arms Trader

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/04/behind-every-refugee-stands-an-arms-trader/

**************************************************************************************************

Trapped in Libya: the flotsam of the West’s wars

By Vijay Prashad
Source: al-Araby
May 14, 2015

Next week, the EU will launch work on its plan to tackle the Mediterranean migrant crisis. The EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini has asked the UN for help to dismantle the smuggling networks.

European ambassadors have drafted a UN resolution, under chapter VII (which allows use of force), to tackle the crisis. For them the military option is the brightest light. As Mogherini said, the EU wants the authority to “use all necessary means to seize and dispose of the [smugglers’] vessels.

“Thus far in 2015, over 60,000 people have tried to cross from Libya to Europe. Of them, close to two thousand have died – a death toll 20 times higher than in 2014,” it continues.

Since 2011, Libya has been ripped apart, its social fabric torn asunder and its state structure largely absent. Nato’s bombardment precipitously destroyed the state and handed over the country to warring militias.

The threat to the refugees is a direct outcome of UN Security Council Resolution 1973, ironically under the Responsibility to Protect (R2P) banner. A new UNSC resolution is not going to be about the protection of the refugees, but to use force to destroy their lifeline. R2P has been ground under by the West’s behavior in Libya.

Full article: https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/trapped-in-libya-the-flotsam-of-the-wests-wars/

Just as much a fucking sham as Iraq, with the exact same results.

[Octafish]

15. Excellent post!

Thank you, polly7. Bookmarked.

[MannyGoldstein]

22. Thanks for the well-researched compilation.

Bookmarked,

[Go Vols]

117. +1

[wyldwolf]

9. Stop it! Moammar was a hero!

So he raped a few kids and slaughtered men and women. So he imprisoned gay people for years. They all had free health care so that made up for it.

Next thing we know you'll be dissing Che Guevara!!

[libdem4life]

10. Soon we'll have our youngest and brightest young men and women (aka boots) vacationing in Syria and

Libya and....just so many wars to fight, who can keep track. Just consider it a geography lesson...I've read that's how most Americans find out where other countries are located.

Remember the Hydra!

[Starry Messenger]

11. We all hated Bush.

I guess that means we should have supported rebels being funded by another state coming to power and overthrowing him.

Look, I support Hillary, but reducing the Libya situation to "We defeated the bad guy, yay!!11" is a gross oversimplification.

[still_one]

30. I think this thread is to counter a thread which showed Hillary smiling when Gadaffi(sic) met his

end. That thread had no context, and not only was an oversimplification, but also a misrepresentation

[Starry Messenger]

47. Oh, that makes more sense.

I've been hiding some of the over the top threads, so I probably missed the context. Thank you!

[still_one]

103. Don't be surprised there will be a lot more threads on both sides

I have no doubt

[Maedhros]

20. Jingoism. Not just for Republicans anymore. [n/t]

[MaggieD]

23. Can't what for the extremists

.... To jump in here and tell us how great he was. LOL!

[still_one]

31. Some seemed to show sympathy for poor little OBL after the Hersh story, which gave them an excuse to

bash Obama, whether the context or the story had any validity

[MaggieD]

46. Yep

[cali]

33. Nobody, but nobody here is saying anything of the sort.

Your army of mouldering strawmen is pitiful. Your truthiness? It blossoms from virtually every one of your posts.

[MaggieD]

45. Sure they are...

If your beef is Clinton being gleeful about his death it follows that you're bummed his own people murdered him.

Or you just hate Clinton so much you don't care that you have to prop up a murderous dictator to smear her.

[cali]

60. even for you, that's a remarkable leap of logic.

there is virtually nothing accurate, factual or truthful in your post.

It's beneath contempt.

It would be like my saying to you that you love the death destruction and torture resulting from the civil war now taking place in Libya because of your adoration for Hillary.

It's repugnant to suggest such a thing. I wouldn't stoop to your level. I don't believe for a minute that you revel in the horrors of today's Libya. And if you believe that I'm "bummed" that Gaddafi was killed because I "hate" HRC, that says a lot about you- but nothing about me.

[MaggieD]

66. It's repugnant to me...

That you're willing to prop up a murderous dictator to smear her. To each their own, I guess.

[cali]

69. I have never said or indicated anything like that.

It is vile and utterly contemptible to attribute such sentiments to me. Not to mention lacking even.a scrap of honesty.

Every time I think you can't sink any deeper into the muck, you prove me wrong

[MaggieD]

73. I feel the same about you

[cali]

113. I don't lie.

I don't accuse you of crap like defending a dictator when you haven't.

You? You 're willing to stoop to just that kind of loathsome thing.

no cute smilie from me.

[MaggieD]

131. Sure you do

[polly7]

137. NO, she doesn't. nt.

[treestar]

128. What did post 2 mean then?

HRC is to blame regardless?

We are asked if we understand it is so bad now that an immigration crisis is added. It's worse now.

So what was the answer?

[treestar]

127. I've seen a great deal of suggestion that things are much worse

and that Libyans are fleeing and getting drowned.

But worse as it is, the dictator is gone. Maybe a period really messed up follows that. Still in the long run, the dictator is gone.

These critics imply since they were better off under Gaddafi, surely they we should have let Gaddafi alone and kept him in power?

and I thought we were so evil we left evil dictators in power because we knew them and how to deal with them and that was best for our country. Yet here we helped get rid of one, and now that's wrong, too.

[Doctor_J]

55. can't wait for the cultists to tell us how this is completely different than Iraq

You people have gotten really sick

[truebrit71]

112. Which extremists would those be? Anyone that doesn't agree with your

... world view?

I've met all kinds of Democrats, in real life and online, but you really take the cake. I'd swear you're on the wrong website....

[liberal_at_heart]

24. More war. Yah.

[GeorgeGist]

25. That's some righteous Bible thumping.

[hrmjustin]

34. Hillary laughed damn it! Damn her, Damn her!

[Cheese Sandwich]

43. Libya now open for ISIS, Africa destabilized and flooded with guns, new immigration crisis...

Thanks Obama, and Hillary Clinton too.

ISIS comes to Libya (http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/18/world/isis-libya/)

(CNN)The black flag of ISIS flies over government buildings. Police cars carry the group's insignia. The local football stadium is used for public executions. A town in Syria or Iraq? No. A city on the coast of the Mediterranean, in Libya.

Fighters loyal to the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria are now in complete control of the city of Derna, population of about 100,000, not far from the Egyptian border and just about 200 miles from the southern shores of the European Union.

The fighters are taking advantage of political chaos to rapidly expand their presence westwards along the coast, Libyan sources tell CNN.

ISIS Beheadings In Libya Devastate An Egyptian Village (http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2015/02/17/386986424/isis-beheadings-in-libya-devastate-an-egyptian-village)

Over the weekend a video emerged apparently showing the Libya branch of the self-proclaimed Islamic State beheading 21 men. All but one were confirmed to be Christian laborers from Egypt.

While this new variation on brutality shocked people around the world, the horror — and sorrow — hit hardest in a small, poor Egyptian town: Residents say 13 of the men were from El-Aour, a hamlet on the Nile River that is a mix of Christians and Muslims.

Libya arms fueling conflicts in Syria, Mali and beyond: U.N. experts (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/09/us-libya-arms-un-idUSBRE93814Y20130409)

Weapons are spreading from Libya at an "alarming rate," fueling conflicts in Mali, Syria and elsewhere and boosting the arsenals of extremists and criminals in the region, according to a U.N. report published on Tuesday.

The report by the U.N. Security Council's Group of Experts - who monitor an arms embargo imposed on Libya at the start of an uprising in 2011 which ousted leader Muammar Gaddafi - said the North African state had become a key source of weapons in the region as its nascent government struggles to exert authority.

[Doctor_J]

52. The BOG and Hillarians are indistinguishable from the Bushies at this point

Congratulations on becoming just like the republicans.

[AtomicKitten]

61. +1

[truebrit71]

93. Right?

The cognitive dissonance is unreal....

[treestar]

129. Um, the Republicans would have found an excuse to go to war there?

After all we saved Iraq from Saddam Hussein! Why not Egypt? And Libya?

And I remember the progressive left posters here who complained we did not do enough to help Egypt! Who were envious of the Egyptians and wanted an uprising for themselves!

When we do help, they don't want it or say it's not enough.

The Perpetually Outraged are started to sound comical.

[workinclasszero]

59. My horror state was better than your horror state!

The whole damn middle east is a vile and violent godforsaken pit of vomit. It was true a thousand years ago and it will probably be true a thousand years from now!

WTF don't we wise up and say to hell with all of it?

[treestar]

130. Now you're talking

But then horrible things would happen there, and then the Constant Complainers would be complaining that we weren't doing anything to help them.

[AZ Progressive]

68. Yup, while our government continues to kiss the hands of the brutal Saudis

Hypocrisy at its finest

[Thinkingabout]

118. It was sad when Gaddafi was not taken out in the 80's.

[mainer]

135. How many of you have been in Libya? I have.

I was there in 2006.

We were among the first westerners allowed en masse, to view the solar eclipse. We camped in the desert, surrounded by raucous Libyans and Bedouin tribes, thrilled about the eclipse and excited about seeing so many Westerners. We were allowed free access in Tripoli and Tobruk. We dropped in by taxi, unannounced, at medical clinics where we were warmly welcomed by surprised doctors and nurses. We visited Leptis Magna, escorted by university students who were conversant (for the most part) in English. Our guide was a young woman in a head scarf (like you'll see in Turkey) who openly joked and flirted with male students. Were there harems and rapes and war crimes and atrocities happening at the same time, as claimed above? I don't know. What I saw was a country that was anxious to reopen relations with the West. They had plans for a resort at Leptis Magna. They were anxious to join the rest of the world. They were on the threshold of opening their doors to tourists. We saw traffic jams and thousands of families camped in the desert to view the eclipse. We spoke to random strangers, who all wanted to get their photos taken with westerners. Who all whipped out their smart phones to snap photos.

Now I fear it's gone, all gone.

Is it BETTER now, with war and terrorism and refugees dying to escape? I can't imagine.

[polly7]

138. Fantastic post. I'm so glad you got to experience that.

Thank you for sharing.

[mainer]

140. Horror state! Gaddafi tried to start "one laptop per child"!

Such short memories we have. In 2006, Libya was on the cusp of rejoining the Western world. Now we look back and call him Vlad the Impaler.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/11/world/africa/11laptop.html

SAN FRANCISCO, Oct. 10 — The government of Libya reached an agreement on Tuesday with One Laptop Per Child, a nonprofit United States group developing an inexpensive, educational laptop computer, with the goal of supplying machines to all 1.2 million Libyan schoolchildren by June 2008.

The project, which is intended to supply computers broadly to children in developing nations, was conceived in 2005 by a computer researcher at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Nicholas Negroponte. His goal is to design a wireless-connected laptop that will cost about $100 after the machines go into mass production next year.

To date, Mr. Negroponte, the brother of the United States intelligence director, John D. Negroponte, has reached tentative purchase agreements with Brazil, Argentina, Nigeria and Thailand, and has struck a manufacturing deal with Quanta Computer Inc., a Taiwanese computer maker.

Mr. Negroponte, who was in Tripoli this week to meet with Libyan officials, said he discussed the project extensively with the Libyan leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, in August.

[mainer]

141. We had restored diplomatic relations, too

So much for diplomatic relations.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/15/libya/

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The United States is restoring full diplomatic relations with Libya and removing the North African country from its list of state sponsors of terrorism after 27 years, the State Department announced Monday.

"We are taking these actions in recognition of Libya's continued commitment to its renunciation of terrorism," said a statement from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

She also referred to "the excellent cooperation Libya has provided to the United States and other members of the international community in response to common global threats faced by the civilized world since September 11, 2001."

The removal from the terrorism list is expected to take place after a 45-day waiting period.

However, Libya will immediately be removed from an annual list of countries that do not cooperate with U.S. anti-terrorism efforts, according to Assistant Secretary for Near Eastern Affairs David Welch.