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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe male suicides: Social perfectionism is killing men — and things are getting worse
Finally, Drummond had everything he’d ever dreamed of. He’d come a long way since he was a little boy, upset at his failure to get into the grammar school. That had been a great disappointment to his mother, and to his father, who was an engineer at a pharmaceutical company. His dad had never showed much interest in him as a child. He didn’t play with him and when he was naughty, he’d put him over the back of a chair and wallop him. That’s just the way men were in those days. Your father was feared and respected. Dads were dads.
It was difficult, seeing the grammar boys pass by the house in their smart caps, every morning. Drummond had always dreamed of becoming a headteacher in a little school in a perfect village when he grew up, but he was only able to get a place at the technical school learning woodwork and bricklaying. The careers tutor almost laughed when he told him of his dreams to teach. But Drummond was ambitious. He earned a place at college, became president of its student union. He found a teaching job, married his childhood sweetheart, and slowly climbed his way to a headship in a Norfolk village. He had three children and two cars. His mother, at least, was proud.
And he was sitting alone in a small room, thinking about killing himself.
Impulsivity, brooding rumination, low serotonin, poor social problem-solving abilities – there are many vulnerabilities that can heighten the risk of suicide. Professor Rory O’Connor, President of the International Academy of Suicide Research, has been studying the psychological processes behind self-inflicted death for over 20 years.
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/the-male-suicides-social-perfectionism-is-killing-men-and-things-are-getting-worse/
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merrily
(45,251 posts)
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)"In every country in the world, male suicides outnumber female. The mystery is why? What is it about being male that leads to this? Why, at least in the UK, are middle-aged men most at risk? And why is it getting worse?
For O’Connor, too, the intent question remains open. “I’m unaware of any decent studies that have looked at it because it’s really difficult to do,” he says. But Seager is convinced. “For men, I think of suicide as an execution,” he says. “A man is removing himself from the world. It’s a sense of enormous failure and shame. The masculine gender feels they’re responsible for providing and protecting others and for being successful. When a woman becomes unemployed, it’s painful, but she doesn’t feel like she’s lost her sense of identity or femininity. When a man loses his work he feels he’s not a man.”
It’s a notion echoed by the celebrated psychologist Professor Roy Baumeister, whose theory of suicide as ‘escape from the self’ has been an important influence on O’Connor. “A man who can’t provide for the family is somehow not a man any more,” says Baumeister. “A woman is a woman no matter what, but manhood can be lost.”
In 2014, clinical psychologist Martin Seager and his team decided to test the cultural understanding of what it means to be a man or woman, by asking a set of carefully designed questions of women and men recruited via selected UK- and US-based websites. What they found suggests that, for all the progress we’ve made, both genders’ expectations of what it means to be a man are stuck in the 1950s. “The first rule is that you must be a fighter and a winner,” Seager explains. “The second is you must be a provider and a protector; the third is you must retain mastery and control at all times. If you break any of those rules you’re not a man.” Needless to say, as well as all this, ‘real men’ are not supposed to show vulnerability. “A man who’s needing help is seen as a figure of fun,” he says. The conclusions of his study echo, to a remarkable degree, what O’Connor and his colleagues wrote in a 2012 Samaritans report on male suicide: “Men compare themselves against a masculine ‘gold standard’ which prizes power, control and invincibility. When men believe they are not meeting this standard, they feel a sense of shame and defeat.”
I have lost at least 3 friends to suicide. All men.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)from birth. At least the girls I know, my self, my sisters, my neighbors, my cousins, all pushed toward passivity, and backed by force as far as I could see. So we are trained to suffer in stillness and trained to helplessness.
Boys are trained to achieve and compete.
And I mean "trained," not educated.
Both extremes are pathological.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Not sure what else to call it.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)Feminists are working to change women's template, and widen it to include everything positive in the men's template, but how are men working to change men's expectations of men? What methods should they use, and what should be the goals?
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Last edited Tue May 26, 2015, 04:42 PM - Edit history (2)
I mean let's face it. You have idealized male heroes the males from a young age constantly trained to emulate.
And I am not saying women are any less in the same rut either.
I mean as a practicing martial artist, I see male kids all the time getting dumped at the dojo. The father stating this training "will make a man out of him." The father patently ignoring the fact that he himself is not...really a warrior type.
There is a real disconnect somewhere.
And really don't get me wrong. The main reason I both returned to and stayed in Martial arts was health reasons. It was do real exercise or die slowly. I went back to martial arts because it wasn't boring weight training.
I really didn't have much of a choice. For exercise the only thing I did have was how to make it interesting.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Seems like that would be an excellent place to start.
Radical notion, amirite?
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)Seeing as I am not a man, I am not going to start laying down a strategy for how men can change their own culture. I have demands of men when it comes to their treatment of women and other genders, and I am definitely vocal about things I think they do that hurt women, but the problems men create for other men are out of my purview. Men committing suicide because they invest their whole selves in their jobs and can't handle unemployment, or because their fathers won't take an active interest in their children's upbringing, or because of the stigma men place on men who need medical help - well, let's just say that if women are to be involved, it'll have to be as second chair. The same goes for changing the masculine ideal away from gun ownership, so that men no longer have the opportunity to be more successful than women when they do attempt suicide.
Women weren't given the right to vote, they fought for it. Shelters for victims of domestic violence, Title IX, workplace opportunities, all the improvements to women's situation were worked hard for. Men could do worse than to look to women to figure out how to change their own culture. Albeit with one huge difference - men will have to acknowledge that the disadvantages some men have are created by men's own culture and other men, not by an external enemy. That is what MRAs cannot or will not face, and hence their ineffectiveness in ameliorating men's situation.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)self-expectations or whatever definitions they have in their own head of what "being a man" means.
My suggestion is to find men who are happy with who they are and how they exist in society, start there for perhaps a route to advice on ways to get out of mental or sematic cognitive "traps".
Note that this is not about social engineering men to be more this or less that- this is about subjective life satisfaction for the men who apparently are so miserable that they, according to statistics, are more likely to commit suicide. My feeling is that a more subjectively happy man isnt necessarily going to be less likely to work or more likely to eschew sports, my own feeling is that a subjectively happy man ks going to be more willing to listen to himself and what he wants, as opposed to living life on someone else's terms.
I'm not a big believer in "culture"- it exists, of course (sort of like the way the gross national product exists, or the dewey decimal system) but I strongly feel that ultimately individuals are the ones in charge of what is in their own heads. I agree that not throwing ones' whole existence into work is generally an objective good -- except for people who obtain their highest level of zen satisfaction from doing so-- and likewise being involved with ones' kids; although honestly the "emotionally unavailable dad who doesn't give a shit about his kids" stereotype is, thankfully, something I almost never see anymore, unlike the 1970s. Most Dads I know are very involved with their kids. So maybe things have improved.
As for guns, I'm not a huge fan myself, but a determined person will find a way to kill themselves, gun or no.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I have a career and couldn't be without one.
This is trying to claim sympathy for the privileged. All of those "problems" could go away if men embraced feminism.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)that it needs to be discussed separately.
Oh and the reasons for it are all sexist. Because men have it so much harder than women do. I mean we don't even lose our femininity if we lose our jobs. That's really great.
gaspee
(3,231 posts)I read the post in that way as well. And the entire thread. Men, so oppressed! Yeah, some really and truly are, but talk to the guys who run the show, not your fellow oppressed. The GLBT movement will help all of society see less strict enforcement of binary gender roles... which is probably a big reason the religious right and most traditional societies that oppress women hate it so much. They really don't want to lose their slaves. How would their society survive without the backbone of that society - their women who are slaves to them from birth. And I'm not just talking about "other place" - the Duggar episode has exposed just how widespread the christian patriarchy movement is in this country. They are trained up from birth to accept their lives of enforced servitude. And the men are trained up to be the masters... well, some don't want to be masters and those who do treat the men who don't want that life just as badly as they treat their slaves.
treestar
(82,383 posts)to prove its premise. And overlooks females make more suicide attempts than men do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide
It looks like the biggest risk is to be a Russian male.
So that they won't get help is due to hanging onto gender roles, even if it kills them.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)what with all their privileges
closeupready
(29,503 posts)
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)...and force them into these subordinate roles, nothing will change.
Feminism is trying to address these issues, and all we get is blow back or accusations that we hate men and are trying to emasculate them. No! We want to FREE men!! We want to free them from this burden that deep down, they don't want; they've just been socialized to pursue it. Perhaps the men need to start listening to the feminists and become feminists themselves.
Society places so much pressure on men and it's not fair. This is what happens when they cannot live up to these societal expectations. I am NOT blaming the men who are hurting themselves. I am blaming society. Look at how we worship sports and entertainment figures--those men who make tons of money!! Look at how women are now starting to outpace men in traditionally male-dominated professions.
As a black woman, I am well aware of the hyper-masculinity that exists in black America, and there's a lot of misogyny because many black women have been assuming male and female roles for many complicated reasons (far too complex to discuss here). And black women are exceling in many areas in life--inside and outside the domestic sphere, which has cause some resentment in the black community among *some* black men. However, we are seeing the damage done as well. Damage to black women who aren't allowed to fully express the full range of their feminine emotions and identity; damage to black men who aren't allowed to cry or to express any other type of emotion other than heightened anger and aggression. Damage to black relationships because *some* black men reject black women in favor of other races because those women are deemed more feminine, desirable, and submissive.
It's not a coincidence that suicides are high in the black community among black men, either. That statistic rarely is reported, though, because nobody cares.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)Your attitude is exactly why the notion of privilege is so odious.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)But apparently some would deny the chance to even TALK about it without attacking.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Pointless blather dressed up in feminist nomenclature, if you ask me.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)I have just slammed the attitude that male suicides should be ignored.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I did not want to get into a fight with the person I "should" have responded. I knew how it would go.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts) 
polly7
(20,582 posts)And the women and children left behind are left devastated and often destitute in many areas of the world. You'd think that anyone whose main concern is women would factor this in as just one of the horrible effects of male suicide.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and female suicide is just as important.
It's insulting to be told we don't lose our femininity if we lose our job. That our jobs are not just as important to us. It presupposes that "femininity" is less important.
This is the kind of sexism that says oh see we men have it so much harder! That's why you should look up to us and consider yourselves as just objects for us. If only you weren't so mean as to think less of us when we don't have a job! (But we can of course devalue your work and your body should be judged by us only for its outer characteristics).
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)yeesh, this was interesting to me, as a middle aged male, who feels somewhat depressed despite a comfortable life style. Why can't there be a discussion on it without someone jumping in and hijacking it because it wasn't about their gender?
treestar
(82,383 posts)The article was specifically about men and thus led directly to comparison with women, so I don't see it that way. The whole thing actually supports feminism, since the reasons these men are supposed to be led to suicide sooner is that they can't live up to the male requirements (even with the privileges they have). It thus attacks their "manhood" rather than their "personhood." It specifically talks about how females don't suffer so much and that's why they are so lucky they don't commit suicide as often (though they do make more attempts).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide
So I don't see it as a hijacking. Once you start talking about a gender, you're automatically comparing it to the other one.
dawg
(10,620 posts)I wonder why?
I believe that's what the OP intended to have a discussion about.
Why do *you* think that is the case?
treestar
(82,383 posts)Less effective methods, it appears to be. And the article says suicidal ideation is about the same for both genders.
dawg
(10,620 posts)while women are much more likely to choose methods that are not immediate and allow time and opportunity for someone to intervene?
The article you linked indicated that males in the U.S. typically die from suicide at rates three to four times that of women. I didn't realize the gap was that high. Seems like something at least worthy of discussion, don't you think?
treestar
(82,383 posts)that the answer is feminism, that would lead to a world where it was easier to deal with job loss and not having that "must provide for the family" nonsense in your head, especially where women are sharing it at least now, and like the example I pointed out of single mothers, taking it on sometimes entirely.
Not living up to the old fashioned male role wouldn't be depressing in a world where the sexes were equal. That might involve also giving up objectifying women sexually and treating them like people. Maybe some want to make that trade off.
It's like the macho stuff men can't give up but disadvantages them in some way. Go to doctors when there is something wrong. Get counseling when needed rather than looking at it as weakness. Stop and ask for directions. Walk away from fights. Eliminate this type of requirement to maleness. Stop looking at so much as "weakness."
And stop looking at so much that is deemed "feminine" as "weak" or "inferior." Women have this advantage for being not tough enough to pick a good suicide method and to fail more at it? I would not see it that way. Is it a sign of female weakness that women are not as successful. But they were at least, at higher rates, depressed enough to try.
dawg
(10,620 posts)I think many men have been conditioned from birth that it is unacceptable to cry out for help. And you might just get mocked if you do.
And it isn't just other men in society that subject men to these pressures. Many women are not feminists, and some of them demand compliance with masculine archetypes just as strongly as some men do. Of course, most men don't have to also deal with a physical or financial imbalance of power along with those demands, but the emotional toll can still be quite taxing.
Again, I would never suggest that men are as oppressed by society as women are. That is no contest.
But men are subjected to pressures and expectations that are unique to them. And just because someone else has it worse, doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate problem to discuss.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)women tend to kill themselves in manners not involving gun. yuk. they tend to chose manners that do not destroy the appearance, as foolish as that is, because of the importance for a lifetime at look. it benefits us in suicide.
kinda sick in an advantageous way for women.
men on the other hand do not have the same imprint on look. effective. use a gun.
dawg
(10,620 posts)The most recent suicide that affected me was a friend I have known since I was a kid. He was an outgoing guy, handsome & charming. Basically the opposite of the way I see myself. 
But he had skeletons, and apparently he decided he could no longer live with them. He used a gun. That's one reason I'm strongly in favor of waiting periods for first time gun purchases. Guns are too available.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)A workplace death rate sixteen times as high and a higher rate of death from every preventable cause?
treestar
(82,383 posts)Higher rates of pay, etc.
How interesting to seek out the one thing where men have it worse. And women make more attempts, so they are just as depressed, or at a higher rate. They are just too weak to succeed as much. Or incompetent, I guess you could look at it that way. I could see it catching it as women gain in equality - depressing but another sign of increasing equality. Or, men could give up the expectations and refuse to think of themselves as weak or failures on the terms they now do - seek help, etc.
Like my father likes to say, when seeing statistics that women's chances of heart attacks and other stress related illnesses went up, see you paid a price for that equality. Of course with old fashioned sexists like him, women would be better off at home not risking these things.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Wanna trade?
Snow Leopard
(348 posts)I took it to mean that women are more *solid* with their femininity, not that it was less important, but that wouldn't fit your agenda would it?
Where in all of this did you see where the focus went to women--> "that's why you should look up to us and consider yourselves as just objects for us. If only you weren't so mean as to think less of us when we don't have a job! "
Seriously?
You are a misandrist and use all the same tactics as a mysoginist.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)How not to win friends, exhibit #1. Bonus points for use of scare quotes.
Oneironaut
(5,477 posts)Men killing themselves is a completely separate issue from Feminism. It's not a competition - one can be talked about without detracting from the other.
Suicide is a complex issue. Men are taught at a young age to be competitive and value success. I think that this is a valid discussion and a real problem in our society.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Talking about male suicide is "trying to claim sympathy for the privileged."?
Really? That's the most incredibly offensive thing I've read in a long time. I think you go out of your way to offend people on this board. Either that or you were just being incredibly insensitive and obtuse when you made that comment.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Seems to be always turned into an issue about women. And the term "privilege" gets thrown in also.
romanic
(2,841 posts)and find some compassion and empathy for these "problems" that don't seem to matter to you. JFC
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Last edited Tue May 26, 2015, 11:50 AM - Edit history (1)
It's not about "toxic masculinity" when 13 year olds are killing themselves. It has more to do with what they experience at school in which boys are treated like defective girls.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)All men, all between 35-50. I wish I knew why. It hurts.
Skittles
(153,103 posts)just getting them to go to a regular doctor is very often an ordeal - and yes, I'm sure this is due to some screwed-up idea of "masculinity"
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)of weird perpetual competition, being measured against societal standards.
gaspee
(3,231 posts)As a gender non-conforming female, I can tell you some stories. You need to talk to your fellow men who enforce societal roles. Women are not to blame. The whole men's rights movement is a way to blame the oppressed (women) for the oppression of men. Yes, there are very specific problems that men face... but take it up with the guys in charge. Feminism, which many men seem to blame for their problems, will free women and men from enforced societal roles. It starts with raising children without such strict gender roles. The trans movement, imo, will help all of society move forward in embracing more fluid, individual gender expression.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)Whether you live by old fashioned notions or newer ones, there are certain expectations, social norms and things that I myself, as a man, have found hard to get away from. I grew up in (and remain in) a conservative rural area filled with so called "manly men". I know a giant of a man who lives nearby and seems almost a prime example of this. A hard face that rarely shows a smile, perhaps because he is trying to be tough and hard, or perhaps (and more likely) because he works fourteen hours a day and has forgotten how.
My Father is... "masculine" for want of a better word. He loves baseball and football - and screams at the television frequently when watching it. In my childhood, he worked often 80-100 hours a week and would often come home and tell us kids (my three sisters and I) to "scoot" it's adult time. A good man, but a man who grew up being taught that to be vulnerable is to be weak. This made it difficult (for many years) for him and his deeply emotionally troubled son (me) to see eye to eye. Some times, it is still difficult.
His own Father had little patience with anything seen as emotional instability, laziness, or weakness. Part of the greatest generation, so to speak. He joined the marines at 17, during world war two, and spent years in a hell that I don't like to imagine.
Provide. Protect. Show strength. Do all that is expected of you, call it easy and demand more. Boys (or men) don't cry. Boys (or men) don't show fear, or cower under the covers at night because they're scared of the dark (and ghosts!) as I was - and did.
I have struggled with post traumatic stress disorder for the vast majority of my life now. I am often vulnerable, some times shaking myself to sleep at night. I take two medications for anxiety and depression, and have had long bouts of being "in between" jobs. As I write this, I have just recently resigned from a full time job (effective two weeks from yesterday) because it was stressing me out too much and worsening my anxiety.
I have struggled with suicidal thoughts in the past. In my early twenties and teens I was hospitalized a time or three. I have been vulnerable, weak, shaken, beaten all to hell, terrified, overwhelmed, and altogether not, perhaps, an example of a "manly man".
Yet... as the years go by, I find that what holds deeper meaning for me, what lasts and touches my heart and soul most deeply are the deeper interactions I have with other people. Compassion - empathy, not only showing our pain, but sharing our pain and inviting others to share theirs. Their doubts, fears, their greatest ambitions. Such things have kept me moving forward, despite all I have suffered. Others who, despite great suffering and trouble of their own, have reached out to me in compassion - enabling me (and teaching me how) to do the same.
I must, given who I am - and who I have been, look for an alternate way to be a "man" in this conflicted society. I have found my strength in my faith in humanity. I have found that kindness (whether my own or that of others) is far stronger than any sort of "hardness" or pretense at invulnerability. I have found my deepest meaning within love, generosity and compassion. I found simplicity and joy in the simple and fun things of life - in childlike innocence, laughter, and play.
The hard faced, stereo-typical notion of the man is not for me. Others may keep it if they wish, but there is something much, much better. It is being a person. A human being. A being that is emotional and spiritual as much as physical. One that bleeds, cries, laughs and farts as much as any other.
Our very weaknesses, our vulnerabilities, our suffering... when these things lead to compassion and humanity as they so often do... that, is, to me, what makes a man. Further, it is what makes a man strong. It is what enables him to grow beyond a prime social example of the great male dominant monkey... and into something much more human, something precious, fragile, vulnerable, and beautiful.
We (men) need to learn that it is okay to defy our stereo-types, that it is okay (and should be encouraged) to be vulnerable, to share with others who we are and how feel.
dawg
(10,620 posts)Maybe someday we can all grow beyond the stereotypes.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I really feel you.
Thanks for sharing that important perspective that I am pretty sure all men feel to some degree.
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)for others but also compassion for myself. I think sometimes we forget to be compassionate with ourselves.
demmiblue
(36,806 posts)
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)you describe your father and grandfather as "being a man" but to me they sound like stereotypes. They don't sound like my dad or my grandfather. Of course, I hardly knew either of my grandfathers.
There are any number of ways that men act in this society. I've lived in a few places and known a few guys and haven't really seen anybody living up to that supposed stereotype. I am not saying that nobody does, but I don't think it is as common as people seem to believe.
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)They were both good men - and my Father is still, a good man. They didn't neatly fit into stereo types, not fully, no one does. My intent was to point out a few examples of what is expected of men in this society, how it shapes certain issues and, in a variety of ways, leads to greater stress and difficulty.
Over the years, my Father became a much more gentle, decent, understand man - which is not to say he was a bad man to begin with. Just that a man who was once good, became great (to me). My Grandfather died when I was fairly young, but suffered a great deal throughout his life, in part, I believe, because of the things that are expected of men. Some of the more foolish notions that, overall, society, mass media and so on put into our heads.
I could write a great deal about both of them - and most of it would be good. I think you misunderstood the intent of my post.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)dawg
(10,620 posts)Society (which our feminist friends call the patriarchy) forces people into pre-determined roles that are often impossible to live up to.
TexasProgresive
(12,153 posts)It is nothing new that greater number of males are conceived than females with many never coming to term but still managing a higher birth rate than females. The death rate for males runs higher than for females throughout our natural life spans. Death likes us whether from disease, war, suicide, accident whatever. We are the preferred prey of death.
This from Robert Krulwich's blog.
http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2013/06/17/192670490/why-men-die-younger-than-women-the-guys-are-fragile-thesis
Women, on average, seem to take a little longer to die. But here's what I didn't know: Women, it turns out, don't just win in the end. It seems that women consistently outlive men in every age cohort. Fetal boys die more often than fetal girls. Baby boys die more often than baby girls. Little boys die more often than little girls. Teenage boys, 20-something boys, 30-something boys — in every age group, the rate of death for guys is higher than for women. The difference widens when we hit our 50s and 60s. Men gallop ahead, then the dying differential narrows, but death keeps favoring males right to the end.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And live with sexism and objectification.
TexasProgresive
(12,153 posts)women will outnumber men. If you follow the link I posted you would see that the mortality of males starts well before birth.
The Fetal Difference
First off, whatever we males are doing wrong, nature seems to know about it. Because when human babies are conceived, says a 2002 study, "the ratio of males to females ... has been estimated to be from 107 to 170 males per 100 females." The storks, it seems, drop extra boy babies into wombs, almost as if they know what's coming. But even with a boost at conception, male fetuses don't make it out of the uterus as often as female fetuses. The death differential, says the study, "has been estimated to be from 111 to 160 males per hundred females." So miscarriages are mostly male.
Now as to having to put up with objectification and sexism and yet living longer that just bolsters the argument that women are the stronger gender.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Medical care improved women's life expectancy dramatically through the middle 1900's.
Because of increased workplace safety, men's life expectancy is now beginning to catch up, but has reached nothing that looks like a plateau.
TexasProgresive
(12,153 posts)That us guys in developed countries are doing a bit better until our mid 50s
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2018.html#203
at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
0-14 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
15-24 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
25-54 years: 1 male(s)/female
55-64 years: 0.97 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.77 male(s)/female
total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2014 est.)
Saudi Arabia seems to be killing their women off:
at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
0-14 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
15-24 years: 1.15 male(s)/female
25-54 years: 1.33 male(s)/female
55-64 years: 1.2 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 1.08 male(s)/female
total population: 1.21 male(s)/female (2014 est.)
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)is always skewed by infant mortality. That men and women had equal lifespans of 47 years in 1900 is just nonsense. In 1900, my patriarch (who was born yesterday in 1811) was turning 89. His wife had died two years earlier at age 78. His sons, born in the 1840s-1860s lived to be 73-19-24-92-74-71-76-86. The 19 year old was killed coming home from the Civil War. Their daughters lived to be 85-75-69-66. Not especially long, but a far cry from 47. Most people, even in the 19th century, if they lived past age 5, would live far longer than 47.
They ought to be measuring life expectancy at age 5, which would take the infant mortality out of the picture.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)That's as may be. Nevertheless, life expectancy at birth is the only data available. I don't think they had actuarial tables in 1900.
The gap in life expectancy between men and women has been closing for the last 40 years. If "the fragile nature of men" is the reason for the gap, then why is it closing and why are men living significantly longer each decade while women have hit a plateau?
The answer of course is that social advances (safety) that allow men to live longer have lagged social advances (medicine) that allowed women to live longer. It is very likely that men's lifespans will plateau at approximately the same age that women's expectancy has (roughly 81 years).
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)shows white women living about 1.5 years longer than men (life expectancy at age 10) in 1900 and about 3.85 years longer in 1940. I am not sure how war figures in as a cause of death either. It many decades it must have been one of the leading causes of death for men under 30.
1939
(1,683 posts)Death in childbirth was a hazard for female longevity. Men who outlived three wives (serial) was very common.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The gap between men and women was quite small at the turn of last century. The things that killed women (healthcare) were improved before the things that killed men (war and workplace accidents). Only now are men's lifespans catching up to women.
This wouldn't be the case if the difference were due to fragile men. In fact, most of the top 10 causes of death for men are completely preventable. If those causes *were* prevented, there'd be little if any difference in life expectancy.
Skittles
(153,103 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)What does that mean?
Skittles
(153,103 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)TexasProgresive
(12,153 posts)You did it so well will just 9 words. I think this works for most animals as well.
I will read you link in a bit.
TexasProgresive
(12,153 posts)I have said more than once that the Y chromosome is a broken X. It is really interesting that the Y lacks genes that are present in the X. Thanks for the enlightenment.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)
deutsey
(20,166 posts)(inspired by the Dude from The Big Lebowski), still has a serious message at its heart: Will you just take it easy, man?
While Dudeism in its official form has been organized as a religion only recently, it has existed down through the ages in one form or another. Probably the earliest form of Dudeism was the original form of Chinese Taoism, before it went all weird with magic tricks and body fluids. The originator of Taoism, Lao Tzu, basically said “smoke ’em if you got ’em” and “mellow out, man” although he said this in ancient Chinese so something may have been lost in the translation.
Down through the ages, this “rebel shrug” has fortified many successful creeds – Buddhism, Christianity, Sufism, John Lennonism and Fo’-Shizzle-my-Nizzlism. The idea is this: Life is short and complicated and nobody knows what to do about it. So don’t do anything about it. Just take it easy, man. Stop worrying so much whether you’ll make it into the finals. Kick back with some friends and some oat soda and whether you roll strikes or gutters, do your best to be true to yourself and others – that is to say, abide.
http://dudeism.com/whatisdudeism/
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Joint action (with men and women) in social causes provides both purpose and meaning. Whether it's a park clean-up, demonstration, sit-down strike, or building homes for the poor -- SOMETHING. I have noted a lot of men involved with "do-gooder" work, esp. after a trauma, but even in post-career work when society has said you punched all the right buttons, but still...
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Issues like this could be teachable moments about the benefits of a gender-neutral society. But all too often, instead of discussing the issues intelligently , we devolve into a girls vs. boys fight about who has it worse. (And yes, I do think women have it worse. But that doesn't mean men aren't suffering as well.)
LuvNewcastle
(16,834 posts)We're told how to act and react at every turn. The reason these 'values' are still being reinforced is that they benefit the people at the top of the hierarchy. Free yourself from caring about the expectations of others, and you'll have made and accomplishment you can be proud of.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)This thread starts wanting to talk about just one aspect of the dysfunction amongst men that leads them to harm themselves.
I would look at the overview- why are so many men harmful…. and point upwards to Brickbat's post #13. Patriarchy is harmful to men too.
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)They need to fight against their oppressors and take back their personal lives..Women are not to blame for these failings, we are too busy fighting for our own lives back from these man made oppressions, the men need to Come together and silence those that demand conformity to their misplaced ideas of how societies should function...
I feel for us all if we cannot get it under control....
Prism
(5,815 posts)Just going to leave this link about identity politic radicalism here:
http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2014/11/everything-problematic/
Because this thread is rapidly becoming a fine illustration of why I lost patience with it.
Can't even talk about male suicide without getting an earful these days.
ananda
(28,828 posts)Sounds more like child abuse and trauma.
ismnotwasm
(41,952 posts)At heart, the social construct of "male" is aggressive, violent, and emotionally stunted. Men are not inherently these things, they are raised with them as a social norm. Not all men embrace or even accept this, but the messages are everywhere.
Men still rule the world and despite gains by women will continuous to do so for some time, so we see the results of patriartical driven policy everywhere from wars to Wall Street. Addressing these issues from the heart, how men are so damaged by heteronormative societal norms they are dying is one way to address the topic.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Men's problems are not all internal. They are also external.
For example, the affordable care act guarantees violence counseling for women, but not men. That is not an accident and reflects a pervasive social preference that we're happy to write into law, but refuse to acknowledge in any other way.
It doesn't matter how heteronormative one feels. If you go to the doctor expecting birth control or counseling, you'd better not have a penis.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)LOL...I was going to say something similar to that. We're apparently supposed to sit around and talk about how bad we are.
ismnotwasm
(41,952 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Don't worry though; I won't make a habit of it.
ismnotwasm
(41,952 posts)Don't even talk to me.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Suicide is undeniably a health care issue. So, given your personal experience, do you think that it is socially useful that the ACA should have done more for your MS disabled husband?
I'm very dubious of women who tell men to reject their template of masculinity... and helpfully provide a replacement.
BTW, I control my ignore button. You control yours.
ismnotwasm
(41,952 posts)But the article of the OP is on male suicide. My opinion is more complex than what I posted, but it is my opinion.
I told my husband you were dubious. He's still laughing.
fishwax
(29,148 posts)or defined by the box/framework our culture often provides (or insists upon) for them.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I dispute that there is only one.
There is also strong evidence that the template that evolves in the absence of men role models results in dysfunction.
fishwax
(29,148 posts)(Well, actually I'm not sure men need a male template at all, but I suppose that's a separate issue.)
I certainly agree with you that there is not just one male template. But there is a culturally predominant one (or perhaps a set of closely-related, overlapping culturally predmoninant/acceptable ones), and it has historically been enforced in ways that can be destructive to men who don't naturally or comfortably fit it.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)and I would argue that a positive role model would if not exemplify, at least embrace the ideas self-respect (not to be confused with self-esteem) and the courage to be your own man.
fishwax
(29,148 posts)Kids (whether male and female) will do better with positive role models both male and female. And I think a positive role model (whether male or female) would certainly embrace self respect and being one's own person.
leftstreet
(36,097 posts)Why would they need to adopt a 'template' for anything?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The adults we encounter growing up are the templates we use.
That's how all animals work, including humans.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)and my wife stood by my side we decided that I would become a stay at home dad. I was/am treated like a lowlife and it has actually lowered my feelings of self worth. I never expected to be belittled and isolated due to having children which my wife supports on her own financially. This gnaws at me constantly on top of the physical pain I have to endure. Suicide is always in the back of mind to end my mental and physical suffering but leaving that legacy for my children and my wife to bear is not something I can do to them.
ismnotwasm
(41,952 posts)And also struggles with self esteem specific to "what a man is". He has considered suicide. We worked out a system where he runs the household, I work, and as time went on I became the envy of my co-workers, because he is such great man, so loving and kind. He doesn't understand this through the filter of what he "should" be able to do, never mind his disabilities.
So I understand, I live with it anyway, and I hope you are able to find joy in your life and a sense of true value
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)and I understand where your husband is coming from. It takes a strong person to be able handle the trials and tribulations of dealing with long term health problems of a loved one. Loyalty is hard to come by these days and I consider those people who stick it out heroes. 
ismnotwasm
(41,952 posts)And nothing but best wishes and hopes for you and yours
dawg
(10,620 posts)He sounds like a strong partner as well. It takes strength and courage to face a disease like MS and to take on a role that doesn't conform to society's norms.
ismnotwasm
(41,952 posts)I hate watching him suffer with that. He's my love
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)I don't want to seek sympathy. I don't deserve it. I work despite a disability because I prefer the pain and risk and inconvenience to the decrease in income. But given a lesser differential I would not work. Unlike you, I have no children to care for even. Your life is doubtless harder than mine would be at home. Could I stand the (inevitable, sadly) dismissal and scorn that men who choose not to work receive, unless they are at Hawking levels of overt physical restrictions? Probably no better per se. That's an expectation uniquely directed at men, by both men and women, consciously and unconsciously. A woman in a couple, even without a disability, who chooses to manage the home while her SO works outside is generally perceived as a busy homemaker doing vital and demanding tasks. A man, even disabled, who chooses the same is generally perceived as a hapless sponge.
Incidentally for those who doubt this try a little experiment on the equivalence between self and work. Ask 10 working men not close to you what they do. Ask 10 similar women the same question. It will be a rare sample of 20 where any of them gives an answer other than work-related, but looking deeper will show a glaring difference. Unless you are on a kibbutz or a Greenpeace meeting I can pretty much guarantee at least 9 and probably 10 of the men will say " I AM a.....". Probably no more than 5 of the women will say the same. The others will "work for X or" or "Do Y and Z at company A". Men see themselves mostly as their jobs, not as a person doing the job.
It's probably easy to say that I would be able to stand up to the sneering, but then I've never had to. Certainly consciously I am sure we both agree we should be able to, that managing a home, especially with kids and a disability, is no cushy sinecure and that we should be able to laugh away any sexist criticism that we do not work outside the home, but conditioning is pervasive and it says that men must work and provide while they can still stand and move, even if like me their ability to do either is much reduced.
Suicide is a final option in more ways than one. I believe painless, medically managed suicide should be available to all mentally capable adults with no stigma. But for me it would not be a choice because I was laughed at or sneered at. That would push me the other way personally just to spite them. It's not unlikely I will go that way eventually, but it will be because the pain and indignity of living has become worse than whatever benefit I can forseeably derive from life, not because somebody thinks I'm not macho or alpha. Frankly, as long as you personally enjoy your life and your family more than your pain and your handicaps make your life miserable, to hell with anybody who wants to belittle you for suffering through what most of them will never understand.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)and taking the time to put into words what I struggle at times to express.
Skittles
(153,103 posts)you need to learn to stop giving a f*** what these judgmental assholes think - seriously, f*** them all - your life arrangement is not their business - if they make you feel bad DUMP their sorry asses (FAMILY INCLUDED) and surround yourself with the family and friends who value you for who you are and not their idea of who you should be
hunter
(38,300 posts)By the time I learned to "act like a man" and developed the body feature to match (in my early twenties), I fully recognized manliness as both an act and the sort of game I don't like to play.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)for the males in this world, in the name of masculinity/manhood.
i have been discussing it for years. i address it in my house.
dawg
(10,620 posts)in today's society. But men are burdened by societal expectations as well. (Unless, of course, they are straight, tall, rich, handsome, and hyper-masculine. In that case, they do just fine.)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)to my niece (twenties), and her boyfriend.
6 young men in privilege and entitlement. true enough. middle, uppermiddle, white and male. differing ages, but all young and the world by its tail.
and still.
my discussion with the 26 yr old bf was gender assignment and conditioned masculinity, .... cause he does not live or fit the prescribed behavior.
illuminating. especially as this old lady feminist was the one articulating and addressing the wrong of him being defined as less than a man.
hell is hell. i wish it for no one. and even in the privilege and entitlement their lives are set up for destruction and fail.
since i love all these young men, i prefer we are aware and avoid the minefields.
and
it will help us women out too.
win win win.
dawg
(10,620 posts)whenever I read your posts about your boys, I can't help but think that you are one of the awesomest Mom's ever!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)who wants your children to learn and question their realities, society's pressures, etc.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Last edited Tue May 26, 2015, 12:59 PM - Edit history (1)
It must be a way for them to finally feel like they're exerting control. Taking someone else's life is the ultimate act of control.
And, yes, I know that in the vast majority of male suicides there is only one death. But the "take others down with me" mentality of some men seems like revenge for a feeling of being denied the control and power they felt was their due.
I guess the suicide "collateral damage" is yet another aspect of the patriarchal poison.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)I'd say an increased amount of time to think is a modern part of the equation. Or at least, an increased amount of time to unproductively think. An existential situation. It's easy to get lost in your own head. Men aren't needed as much as they used to be. Any individual person isn't needed as much as they used to be. We're all replaceable. Most of us, very easily. Success in that kind of reality is going to be difficult to achieve. Then you question your worth. Your purpose. If you're not needed, or wanted, what's the point?
We live in a more abstract reality than we ever have before, which just keeps growing in scope. We've come to expect to be able to do pretty much anything, and have everything. In theory, it works. In physical reality, we can't do it. Some do, but most don't, which is the case with anything. Some people end up killing themselves, but most don't, even though the concept probably goes through the minds of most people, at least once.
As each of us continues to be needed and wanted less in various spheres of life, I can see the number rising. Everyone is also so busy trying to get through their own day that the social aspect of the human species, which has been very important through history, may also continue to deteriorate. Add to that a social circle, at least a close social circle, that most likely gets smaller as you age.
I'm not sure the human mind in general has quite adapted to the size of society yet. It's like, we can visualize and understand what 1 mile is. The 93 million miles between the Earth and the Sun is a bit different. We get it, but we don't really get it.
Which can be another avenue to go down that ties into this topic. Time, distance, direction, language, etc, are all subjective. We treat them as objective, because it makes the world make more sense. There's no actual north, or the month of May, or a month, or 1pm. The little lines that make up this sentence are just little lines that we made up out of thin air.
Major Nikon
(36,817 posts)...despite the detractors with their alternate agendas and psychobabble.
This is an issue which needs to be more widely understood and dealt with, preferably without people thumbing their nose at it and implying it serves men right as some kind of half-fast idea of social justice. Men die younger from 14 of the 15 leading causes of death and almost all of them can be mitigated. Suicide is one of those causes.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)by Graham Peebles / May 14th, 2015
Stigma and under-reporting of suicides
According to WHO, 1.5% of worldwide deaths were caused by suicide in 2012, making it the third highest cause of death in the world. And this is just those deaths confirmed as suicide. WHO admits that the availability and quality of data is poor, with only 60 Member States providing statistics “that can be used directly to estimate suicide rates.” Many suicides, they say, “are hidden among other causes of death, such as single car, single driver road traffic accidents, un-witnessed drownings and other undetermined deaths.” These are just some of the many factors that make accurately assessing the numbers who take their own lives problematic. In countries where social attitudes, or religious dogma, shroud suicide in a stigma of guilt (Sub-Saharan Africa, where suicide is rarely if ever discussed or admitted, for instance), suicide may be hidden and go un-reported; so too in countries where suicide is still regarded as a criminal act: Hungary for example, where attempted suicide carries a prison sentence of five years, or Japan where it is illegal to commit suicide. North Korea, where relatives of a person committing suicide are penalised; Ireland, where self-harm is not generally regarded as a form of attempted suicide; Singapore, where suicide remains illegal and attempted suicide can result in imprisonment; or Russia, where the rate of teenage suicides is three times the world average and where those attempting suicide can be committed to a psychiatric hospital. All of which are pretty strong reasons for hiding suicide attempts and concealing suicide as the cause of death, as well as deterring people from discussing suicidal thoughts.
Whatever the precise number of total deaths by suicide – and all the indications are that it is a good deal higher than WHO says – what is clear is that suicide is a major social issue. The figures of both attempted suicides and committed suicides are increasing; it needs to be openly discussed, the causes understood and more support provided. In the last 45 years, WHO states that suicide rates have increased by 60%, and unless something marvellous happens that drastically changes the environment in which we are living, they predict that by 2020 the rate of death will have doubled – from one suicide every 40 seconds, to someone, somewhere in the world taking his/her life every 20 seconds!
It is time to build an altogether different, healthier model, a new way of living in which true perennial values of goodness shape the systems that govern the societies in which we live, and not the corrosive, ideologically reductive corporate weapons of ubiquitous living which are sucking the beauty, diversity and joy out of life. Values of compassion, selflessness, cooperation, tolerance and understanding; we need, as Arundhati Roy puts it, “to redefine the meaning of modernity, to redefine the meaning of happiness,” for we have exchanged happiness for pleasure, replaced love with desire, unity with division, cooperation with competition, and have created a divided society where conflict rages, internationally, regionally, communally and individually.
Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/05/the-pain-of-modern-life/
I just wanted to include this as an article some may get something from ....... certainly, suicide in India is a horrific problem for men, and shows just how badly they suffer as a result of the pain of not being able to care for their families, d/t extreme poverty and loss of control of their lands and produce to huge corporations they can never possibly repay. I think men worldwide are seen as 'breadwinners' and very much feel shame and often unbearable pain when they see themselves as worthless - and it is only going to get worse.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Because a worldwide society wouldn't exist without them.
Competition and conformity have infiltrated every area of worldwide society
I don't think infiltrate is the right word there. Look at a definition of society; the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community. Now look at mass society; modern industrialized urbanized society: the society of the mass man especially when held to be marked by anonymity, high mobility, lack of individuality, and a general dominance of impersonal relationships.
It's part of it. What works if all the pieces don't fit together? Is having say 1000 different languages efficient, or is 1 language the most efficient?
It is time to build an altogether different, healthier model, a new way of living in which true perennial values of goodness shape the systems that govern the societies in which we live, and not the corrosive, ideologically reductive corporate weapons of ubiquitous living which are sucking the beauty, diversity and joy out of life. Values of compassion, selflessness, cooperation, tolerance and understanding; we need, as Arundhati Roy puts it, “to redefine the meaning of modernity, to redefine the meaning of happiness,” for we have exchanged happiness for pleasure, replaced love with desire, unity with division, cooperation with competition, and have created a divided society where conflict rages, internationally, regionally, communally and individually.
Even in this answer, it only works if there's conformity. How would such a society come to be? By an altogether different and healthier model outcompeting the other model. We can't escape it.
polly7
(20,582 posts)One hour after I last talked to him and said goodnight I found him in in front of his shop. Earlier in the day he'd been hopeful and we were making plans to get treatment for a disease he'd just been recently dx'd with. I know his reasoning was that he didn't want to put all of us through a long period of suffering, but we'd only just begun. It kills me to know how much mental anguish he went through in that short hour to come to a decision. He wanted to live to an old age so badly and had recently sold mostly everything from our farm so he and mom could move into a small house in a nearby town and chat with the boys every day, finally relax. Still feels like an elephant is standing on my chest.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)He was suffering from a terminal disease, and everything in your post rings true for me.
The thought of the despair he experienced is difficult to endure at times.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Yes, thinking of that nearly drove me crazy. It was all I could think about, and still do.
I'm really sorry.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I understand why he did it, but still it is something we can never forget...or even come to terms with really.
I'm sorry for your loss also. Dad made it to 83, so that's something, and he left notes for my mom, sis, and I.
polly7
(20,582 posts)He was 79 and had never been sick a day in his life or spent any time in a hospital. I just wish he'd given us more time to fight it. But I do understand why and I'm not sure that when my time comes I won't do the same if I can't get medical assistance for it. Just such a shock that keeps replaying over and over. I was his shadow all my life, he was my hero .... he joked that I was his little burr.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I know what you mean about playing it over and over. I try to keep it locked away in a compartment, but it's always there.
Yeah, I think it's fair to take your own way out if it gets to that...just hard on those you leave behind.
I love that - "little burr!" That made me laugh.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)No one will deny men have more privileges than women, however, society also takes these same privileges and twists them around to being curses, the same way that ideas of motherhood and beauty often are turned into baneful things for women. The thing that men and women need to see is that the "gender roles" are just blinders meant to keep both men and women marching along into neat little roles so that the Rich will profit while you live, and boil both men and women into glue when they are done.
You do not have to deny sexism to admit that the idea of what is expected of men are hateful, and in the long run, just as bad for men as they are for women. One advantage of being disabled is that you can go to the office, and see all those one time supermen drive up in the expensive car (that will be repossessed next month) and see them dangle in the air because they had no idea they would be in this position. All of us are disposable, male and female, and the rich will afford whatever they want to regardless.
Yes, I did get a hint of "it's hard for us too" which is bad, because instead of focusing on the creeps that put someone in the position, they focus on women. However, to he feminist, I would say, if you point out that no, this male "privilege" thing has a very unhappy ending, you can actually hit the enemy where it hurts, by depriving them of foot soldiers and funding.
To the MRA"S, look, we know that you latch onto articles like this as a stalking horse to progress towards the idea of "You Ladieeez ar duh reasonz life suxx" we, in the worlds of one MRA I often argue with "let me straighten you out." As bad as you may genuinely have it, women get it worse, because women, especially working women, make easier targets, in part because of people like you. That is because you think you are owed something, look, American Capitalism not only thinks it does not owe you anything, it think it has a right to take from you what little you have, and put you in debt for more. The ugly fact is, while many of these men who were wrecked are crying, they never realized that they sold themselves bullshit instead of looking where they were going. Those Rich creeps that paid you to take people to the slaughterhouse, guess what, they had you on the menu too, all along. The same goes for the Calry Fiorinas and other female CEOs who think the fact they made it proves feminism is a lie, only to find themselves in the slaughterhouse as well.
As big as gender issues, and even race issues, are, we can never forget, in America, they are used to hide the one thing that matters in the end, CLASS Issues. By the time the meat grinder is done with us, gender nor race will matter, only that the rich get those sausages they like to feed their pets.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Prism
(5,815 posts)I've had a lot of young male suicide in my family (all in their 20s). Earlier this month, a friend, also in his 20s, ended his life, leaving family and friends devastated and trying to piece together what happened.
All that follows is my own anecdotal thoughts and perceptions:
It's a strange thing, because we have this view that suicidal people are despondent, depressed, potentially mentally ill. But that isn't always the case. Sometimes, there is absolutely nothing there to signal that something is going wrong.
I've spent the past two weeks looking at Bill's facebook (not his real name). He posted pictures of a happy life, talked of the future, near and long term, and had just landed a decent job after completing a post-graduate degree. He was an attractive guy with plenty of friends, but I know he also faced pressures. He was Asian-American, and he was a bit slow out of the gate latching on to what he wanted to do with his life. He didn't pursue his degree in one long bout. He obtained a bachelor's, worked a bit, then returned to school later. From the passing conversations I can piece together, he regretted that he didn't succeed as straightforwardly as many of his peers. He was young - only 28 - but he already perceived himself to be somewhat behind. I wonder if he thought he wouldn't catch up.
I see this a lot in male despondence. There's a sense of having made the wrong choices, not having accomplished as much as early as they "ought" to have. Of the friends I have who I somewhat monitor and worry about, a common theme is that there was a mistake made, be it educational, occupational, or relationship related, early on in life that is somehow immutably tied to the possibility (or perceived certainty) of future failure.
It's a strange kind of "Well, I can never succeed in life to the degree I ought to have because I did X in the past." It's like an emotional paralyzation brought on by regret, and motivated by the internal pressure to succeed and do as well, if not better, than one's peers.
I see it again and again and again. The young suicides in my family were also preceded by these "failures" (two of them happened after very emotionally turbulent relationships failed, one after failing out of school).
Right now, I'm thinking of Bill. I see all his pictures - so recent - and posts about how he was looking forward to the return of a favorite tv show, the trips he was going to take this summer. I wouldn't have guessed. No one guessed. No one knew. Right up until the very end, everything he presented to the world seemed happy, content, succeeding in life.
Right up until he posted "Good night" and meant it.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Especially once you're out of school. Even at 28, which while relatively young, is closer to 30 than 25, let alone 20. Not to mention the 20's seem to go by in the blink of an eye. If you're not on your way to wherever by 28/30, the chances just keep getting slimmer that you will be. Not in every case, but generally.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)It's a fool's endeavor.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)After reading this article. Gender is a tool of oppression and people who rigidly conform to their gender pay a significant price for it.
Also, it seems that men suffer because they don't have intrinsic value, compared to women (who have intrinsic value for childbearing, as well as for sex and for beauty, personality traits, etc..), so thus because men don't have intrinsic value (especially in a patriarchal society), men have to earn, to achieve that value, but because it's not intrinsic, it can be taken away or lost. Men have to continue achieving, continue outcompeting, in order to retain their value in society.
Just look at the price men pay for "failing": not only would they lose the money, their wife often divorces them, and takes the children and even the house, leaving the man without anything. This potential punishment must strike an intense fear in men, that drives men to do whatever it takes, including becoming corrupt and doing malicious things, in order to maintain success and social standing.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)I
Anything to maintain in their mind at least some measure of "social standing"
If if it means harming everyone else. Same for conservatives in a lot of ways. They have to be "better"
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Your post says that women have intrinsic value due the factors you mention.
The flipside is that men's value is extrinsic - having only the value conferred by outside factors.
The analogy I'd use is the intrinsic value of the car in the driveway vs, the pile of lumber sitting alongside it.
Even when the car isn't being driven, it still has intrinsic value as an asset; so it makes sense to periodically wash and wax it, secure it from theft, keep it insured, etcetera.
The pile of lumber has little intrinsic value. In fact, unless it's assembled into a garage, it's simply in the road - an obstacle to mow around, and a reminder that I have a big chore to do.
Once the chore is done, and the garage is built, the garage might become an object of pride in its own right, and perhaps add value to the household but it still has no intrinsic value (it can't be sold independently from the house) - it's extrinsic value is the fact that it intercepts rain and bird shit before it hits the car.
How often does a homeowner send the garage out for periodic maintenance?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And every bit as harmful to women?
Kinda hard to miss, Jeff.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)simply ignored as usual. Some people here (not naming names) are the perfect example of people who were all for Liberalism when it meant it benefited them, but when it had to benefit others, they got angry, and they allowed the split between working class and liberals to occur, the same mess that allows the GOP to mow down every inch of FDRs new deal.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Any other reasons.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)It still clings to the sexist notion that "men have more to lose" while it only hints that their compulsion to "win" at the expense of any important human connection is the real problem.
But it totally shies away from discussion of it.
What a load of insulting crap.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)is an actual attack on the idea of "winning" itself, because in our modern day, both men and women are buying into the same crap ideas of social standing and winning, and getting the heart attacks, divorce rates, and drug addiction to show for it. Men do not have more to lose, but in the end, everyone who plays this game loses. Nobody beats the Casino.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I think it did an excellent job and it was very insightful.
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)That when women lose their work, it's nothing. That's bullshit and we all know it. Look up stats on women and children in poverty. Our jobs ducking matter just as much as men's do. Get fucking used to it.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)It's not talking about which gender has it worse. This is an article about male suicide and the types of social pressures men face that can lead to it.
You would think feminists would be interested in having a constructive conversation on this kind of topic since it deals with gender roles. Instead, feminists take that typical hostile and paranoid attitudes.
Women are all helpless victims. Men are all privileged abusers.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)them. So yeah- the article is discussing gender differences as if it's 1940- and we should all just disappear from the workforce and it would matter not. It's fucking ridiculous, regressive, offensive bullshit. The authors seem married to the stereotypes that are harmful to men. Stupid stuff- their heads are up an ass that died forty or fifty years ago.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)That jobs are'nt important to the half of the world who suffers in poverty more often. The authors are idiots.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I have five brothers, and knowing the rates for suicide if one has already lost a parent to it, I honestly worry about two of them. One is very high up in the RCMP and never stops, he's also a lawyer and spent some time as a Crown Prosecutor, getting all of this education while working and being given leaves by the RCMP to serve in court. He's a complete learn/&/work-a-holic. He's adopted two foster children he took in as toddlers along with his own 5 kids. Now that he's divorced, he's doing it all by himself and I'm so afraid he's going to burn out. Everything's always 'great!' with him - and maybe it is, but I'd feel better if he'd ask for help just once in a while. My other brother lost his wife to cancer and is raising three children by himself. He's a teacher and I know is finding it hard to make ends meet. The last time I saw him he was so thin I almost cried. But I think hell will freeze over before either one admits they're finding anything hard and asks any of the rest of us for anything - it scares me.
betsuni
(25,351 posts)Men are more successful at suicide because they use guns or hang themselves, women use the more unreliable method of pills. Someone has decided that means men have a "higher suicidal intent" which means that women can't be trusted to be serious. Typical.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I read the article but I can't find where it said that.
betsuni
(25,351 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)"But it’s also true, in most Western countries, that more women attempt suicide than men. One reason a higher number of males actually die is their choice of method. While men tend towards hanging or guns, women more often reach for pills. Martin Seager, a clinical psychologist and consultant to the Samaritans, believes this fact demonstrates that men have greater suicidal intent. “The method reflects the psychology,” he says. Daniel Freeman, of the University of Oxford’s department of psychiatry, has pointed to a study of 4,415 patients who had been at hospital following an episode of self-harm; it found significantly higher suicidal intent in the men than the women. But the hypothesis remains largely uninvestigated. “I don’t think it’s been shown definitively at all,” he says. “But then it would be incredibly difficult to show.”
Is that the one? What is the part that is offensive to you? That this one man, Martin Seager suggests that maybe the fact that men succeed at suicide more than women suggests they maybe have higher suicidal intent? Would that really be a big stretch?
More women attempt suicide but even with less attempts, many more men commit suicide than women. Is it so radical to suggest that men therefore have higher suicidal intent?
Anyway, he then admits it is just a hypothesis.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Sorry but culturally the UK is not the USA so there are going to be some differences. However the overall jist is that men are productive drones going off to work 40 hours a week and women CAN if they want to but will be happy at home and just tend to the kids. This is the same old story of human history told for Milena on over. Suicide is nothing new, wasn't invented just last week.
How one can overcome the will to live even for a second is beyond my understanding, yet yes it happens far too frequently. To deny every cell in the body, to overcome that in some ways is a herculean task. I've had several relatives kill themselves over the decades. Mostly due to drugs and stupidity and not so much from suicide.
There are two exceptions to this, both were men and both lost their careers. The article to me feels somewhat outdated in that I don't believe women are less likely to kill themselves over a devastating job loss. Women have careers today, wake up and let's think for a minute here. Not all men live and die depending on how their job goes, many will have dozens of jobs in their lifetimes (days of working for a pension are a pipedream of yesteryear) and so will women.
That creates a lot more stress, maybe not going to get medical coverage or need two or three jobs to make ends meet. How does that play out on the American Dream? Just look at the rate of vets coming back from warzones that kill themselves, how do we even begin to figure out and approach to fixing that issue? Their job was to kill people.
The study probably is accurate for the UK. I think in America, Gen X kinda put a dent in the traditional reasons for suicide. Also an issue with 'pet projects' everyone has them they are called habits. We get into the habits and they make us feel confident in our relationship with the environment. Throw that out of wack and I don't care what gender, the chances of something drastic goes way up. Even if it is a brief spike then diminishes.
It is alarming to read that 40 people kill themselves in South Korea a day, that is not a big country by any means. The pressure we put on men and women today is ludicrous and mimics the unattainable we see in commercials trying to pretend they are normal people (like us) so we will feel more confident after buying a new car etc.. It is all fake, the world is a lie and there is no purpose.
You have no control outside of your own grasp, let it go. The easiest way to fuck up a human brain is to let it fill itself with all kinds of outlandish notions about others that nobody ever thought to begin with. The brains can screw itself up without needing much help, it is a wonder we are all still here imo.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)It seemed to me, as I was reading this, that one factor underlying the concept of "social perfectionism" is competition.
Competing to be the best at everything, to rise to the top. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but that's what I got.
Does this mean that assuming that competition and testosterone go together is a bad assumption? That, despite the way so much of human culture seems to rely on competition, that it isn't as natural, or healthy, as our society thinks?
Of course, as a woman, I know a bit about "social perfectionism" as well.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)because humans have outcompeted every other form of life. Even down to a can of bug spray. That we can sit here and ponder a question like that is a perfect example of it.
Competition is what created civilization, which is little more than a resource concentration mechanism. Humans are the 1% of the planet, hoarding resources through farming, domestication of animals, etc. That process affords us the time to think of concepts like human rights.
Like anything else, competition has its upside, and also its downside. But we can't escape it.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Maybe, for the future of the human species and that of the planet, we need to evolve; to self-regulate competition to a smaller part of who we are.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)we try and tell each other what we can or cannot do. It's never caused a problem.
Maybe we'll get to that point, but we can't even get the UN right. Which, oddly enough, only exists because there was a fairly large competition in the 20th century to figure out who would make the rules.
The struggle between competition and cooperation is constant and ongoing. No different than the one between the individual and the collective. Always pushing and pulling against each other. That's why the future is such an amorphous concept, and difficult to try and plan for.