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Baitball Blogger

(46,682 posts)
Tue May 26, 2015, 01:57 PM May 2015

Revisiting the Vietnam War--and the Liberal response.

There was an article in the Orlando Sentinel yesterday for Memorial Day, which was the product of an interview with a Vietnam Vet. He recalled, in painful detail, the memories of being called a baby killer. It was the kind of experience that will always create a wedge between the right and the left, or more to the point, will continued to be used against the left. I'm not sure that there will ever be full resolution and forgiveness, but I offer these thoughts.

From my observations, I don't believe that protesting that war, in general, was a mistake. What was a huge error was taking out frustrations on the soldiers, who were only serving their country. It was like taking it out on your own brother for doing something he really had no control over.

Because of that war, we know to direct our ire and criticism at people who hold higher office, instead of Americans who are used as pawns to facilitate programs that have no benefit to our country in the long run. It is sad to see how our leaders continue to make wrong-minded decisions, and it is frustrating to be aware that they do it knowing that they will be far from the media light by the time history logs their legacies as an utter failure.

But, I'm going on a tangent. Here is my point: The Liberal party, as we have come to know it, was in its infancy during the sixties. In 1970, I turned twelve years of age and what I saw of the Vietnam War came from housing on a military base. I didn't take part in any protest against the Vietnam War, though I questioned why that war was allowed to continue for so long--and I never really understood the strategic reason for our involvement. I felt close to our military men, and, indeed, came across them daily as we drove in and out of the civilian base, or when they walked up and down on our streets to patrol the neighborhood. They were kids, just like my older brother and sister.

In fact, I remember when my brother got his lottery number to see if he was going to be drafted. It was a family experience to be there when he opened the letter, because this was an event that would affect our entire family. If he was drafted, our minds and thoughts would be forever with him, halfway around the world. It was a dread that every family in that era had, if they had a son who was about to turn eighteen.

I remember looking intently at my father's face since that's how we would interpret the results. And I remember feeling the knot in my stomach disappear when he took a sigh of relief and said, "It's a high number. They don't usually make selections up in this range."

And with that, the Vietnam War became a conflict that we watched from our t.v.s, where we were left to wonder why it was taking so long to either achieve our objectives, or withdraw our men from that "conflict" which was killing our young men at a level as high as any war.

So, my impressions of the Liberals who were Stateside and marching in protests was also watched from television. And what I saw was young people who were making their political might known for the very first time. And, with the stakes so high, they showed their inexperience about the way politics works in the U.S., by targeting the wrong people.

The article in the paper even resurrected Jane Fonda's lamentable role. But she was just in her thirties and when it came to protesting ill-thought out wars, as a country, we had little to go on. It's no wonder that the first time around, the protests would be more emotionally driven, rather than rationally thought out.

And let's face it, that era was a youthful revolt. It was the very young rebelling against the ambitions of old autocrats, who were part of a military industry that can't seem to operate without obtaining blind obedience and blood sacrifices from the young.

That's what I saw as a child of the sixties. I wish I could say it was the only mis-step that Liberals have made in my time, but I will venture to say, that of all the mistakes that were made, that one seems to be one that we can all agree, will never be made again.

So I once again affirm my thanks to all the soldiers who have served their country and those who died for my Constitutional right for freedom and equality. I realize that what they started overseas, is a battle that still continues on our own soil. And, if we really are intent in honoring their sacrifice, we would understand that it requires each one of us to finish what they started.

24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Revisiting the Vietnam War--and the Liberal response. (Original Post) Baitball Blogger May 2015 OP
I was a veteran and 21 when I started protesting the war. Tierra_y_Libertad May 2015 #1
Good for you! kentuck May 2015 #15
I am not about to contradict the reported experience of the vet you quote. Hoppy May 2015 #2
Here's the link Baitball Blogger May 2015 #4
The link is reflected correctly. It is it's "facts" that I am disputing. Hoppy May 2015 #5
Dispute it all you want, it did happen to friends of mine coming through SFO in the late 60's, GGJohn May 2015 #10
Why do you guys never bitch about the way WW-II vets treated you? ieoeja May 2015 #23
I went to the VFW once, and was treated as you say, GGJohn May 2015 #24
I always laughed at the being spit at in the airport nonsense. former9thward May 2015 #7
But what you are forgetting is that John Rambo is a gentleman. Hoppy May 2015 #8
I would also like to correct your last paragraph. Hoppy May 2015 #3
The right is adept at using their deaths to question our patriotism. Baitball Blogger May 2015 #6
Respectfully disagree. H2O Man May 2015 #9
That's the disadvantage of watching it unfold from outside the U.S. Baitball Blogger May 2015 #11
Hand held video cameras weren't as nearly prevelant then as they are today, GGJohn May 2015 #12
This was back in the day when the networks actually followed a Baitball Blogger May 2015 #13
The remaining tensions H2O Man May 2015 #14
Unless you live in a community like mine. Baitball Blogger May 2015 #16
Amen to that! kentuck May 2015 #17
Thank you. H2O Man May 2015 #20
It'll be a cold day in hell before I EVER apologize for my anti-Vietnam activities. Paladin May 2015 #18
. Baitball Blogger May 2015 #19
I was in the draft, but my number was not picked...still, I protested against the war. Sancho May 2015 #21
What I saw probably had to do with the My Lai incident. Baitball Blogger May 2015 #22
 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
1. I was a veteran and 21 when I started protesting the war.
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:03 PM
May 2015

My first "protest" was when they asked me to extend my enlistment and go kill people I didn't know, had nothing against, and probably would have liked so LBJ could burnish his "anti-Communist" creds.

I refused.

 

Hoppy

(3,595 posts)
2. I am not about to contradict the reported experience of the vet you quote.
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:15 PM
May 2015

Still, I wonder. The most famous of the complaints of the Viet Nam vets is being spit on at airports. As far as has been documented, only one vet was spat on. His name is/was John Rambo (I guess he is still alive). The rest of the VVets, arrived at the U.S. military airports where civilians would not have access to them.

Baby Killer? That one may have happened. But not in any anti-war demonstration I witnessed or took part in.

Hanoi Jane? She said it was a spur of the moment action where she found herself escorted to the site of an anti-aircraft weapon and was asked if she wanted to sit in it. Unfortunately, she agreed. There is no indication she asked the people conducting her tour of North V.N. if they could take her to where an anti-aircraft gun was sited.

Since then, she has apologized many times.

Baby Killer? I recall the chant, Hey, Hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today? How many photos were there of people carrying Nixon in effigy?

The point is, I don't recall much anger being directed at soldiers as we knew they weren't responsible. The only complaint was that maybe they should have gone to Canada.

As for me, I was drafted and showed up at induction but was turned town as I was born blind in my left eye. Still, I showed up. Then, i continued attending anti-war protests and sending contributions to anti war causes such as Viet Nam Veterans Against the War, the Berrigans defense and Angela Davis's defense.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
10. Dispute it all you want, it did happen to friends of mine coming through SFO in the late 60's,
Tue May 26, 2015, 10:36 PM
May 2015

I had people cross opposite of me so they wouldn't have to acknowledge me.
My friend, you can dispute it all you want, but it did happen, not too often, but enough.

 

ieoeja

(9,748 posts)
23. Why do you guys never bitch about the way WW-II vets treated you?
Wed May 27, 2015, 04:50 PM
May 2015

I was too young for the Vietnam War, but old enough to remember it. And what we mostly saw were WW-II vets metaphorically spitting on guys coming back from Vietnam. Not on the TV. But in real life. Korean vets had a smaller version of that greeting, but not to the extent that Vietnam vets did.

My hometown American Legion Post had a lot of Korean vets as members who made sure the Vietnam vets were welcomed. The three nearest Posts told Vietnam vets they were not welcome. For decades after my hometown Post made out like a bandit as they had membership from all four towns while the others kept dwindling as the WW-II guys died off. It wasn't until the state of permanent war following Kuwait that those other posts started to recover.

Not long ago I was talking about this with a Vietnam vet from one of those neighboring towns. He now denies that ever happened. But I knew the guy when it was happening.

People often remember being mistreated by people they don't like when it did not happen, while forgetting being mistreated by people they do like.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
24. I went to the VFW once, and was treated as you say,
Wed May 27, 2015, 08:11 PM
May 2015

we were referred to as the generation that lost a war, I quietly left and have never returned.
I now live in peace in my little corner of AZ, happily with my wife of 50 years, we have a small farm we tend to and are just enjoying life.

former9thward

(31,936 posts)
7. I always laughed at the being spit at in the airport nonsense.
Tue May 26, 2015, 06:29 PM
May 2015

If that had been true there would have been a lot of broken noses in those airports.

 

Hoppy

(3,595 posts)
3. I would also like to correct your last paragraph.
Tue May 26, 2015, 02:19 PM
May 2015

As per Smedley Butler, those people did not die for your Constitutional right to freedom and such. They died for oil, company profits and presidentail ego (I do not want to be the first president to lose a war).

Some of them died because the Nixon election committee told the North Viets to hold out on signing a peace agreement because they would get better terms under Nixon.

Yes, we all feel badly for the vets (except the Republicans who don't want to fund services) but lets keep the facts as clear as we can remember.

Baitball Blogger

(46,682 posts)
6. The right is adept at using their deaths to question our patriotism.
Tue May 26, 2015, 04:33 PM
May 2015

It has taken me over fifty years to realize that when the right says, "They are fighting for OUR freedoms," they really mean fighting for THEIR right to game the system to maintain their insular white enclaves.

That's why I put the clarification that makes an American soldier's sacrifice one that is consistent with a Constitutional cause. Hence, they died to protect our right to freedom AND EQUALITY. Which is a battle that will still have to be fought on American soil.

And, yes, that's only secondary to the real purpose America has been joining these skirmishes over the years. Usually it's because of the oil. Or it's to provide a carpet-of-bombs inducement to someone to go along or get cluster bombed over some stupid business deal.

Baitball Blogger

(46,682 posts)
11. That's the disadvantage of watching it unfold from outside the U.S.
Wed May 27, 2015, 12:26 AM
May 2015

boundaries. I never saw video of anyone spitting on another person, but I do remember some very harshly worded protest signs.

I'm sure, if it happened, it was isolated cases. But, that's the reason propaganda is an effective tool for those who benefit from the misinformation.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
12. Hand held video cameras weren't as nearly prevelant then as they are today,
Wed May 27, 2015, 12:34 AM
May 2015

hence, when it did happen, it likely wasn't caught on video like it would be today, but I do agree with you that such incidents were the exception, not the norm.

Baitball Blogger

(46,682 posts)
13. This was back in the day when the networks actually followed a
Wed May 27, 2015, 12:44 AM
May 2015

story. It was network footage. But I always wondered, if it was valid network footage, why haven't I seen it replayed in a retrospective of the time? I would have seen it on a U.S. Military sponsored channel.

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
14. The remaining tensions
Wed May 27, 2015, 12:39 PM
May 2015

about the Vietnam War are not located between "the Left" vs "the Soldiers" from that era. It is found in the lying carps in the republican party who pretend that it was a "noble" war, and that they supported it. Right, George W Bush the war hero versus John Kerry, the soldier/war protester.

Other than Fox News and a few other gutters, I don't think there is anyone who actually believes that this baloney has merit.

Baitball Blogger

(46,682 posts)
16. Unless you live in a community like mine.
Wed May 27, 2015, 12:49 PM
May 2015

There is great benefit for those who learn to deflect attention from their own transgressions, by redirecting to something that can draw a quick, emotional response. And nothing draws a more swifter response for insular, protected right-leaning communities than criticism of the military.

Remember, in Central Florida there was a strong drive to attract military retirees to this area, (I held onto the article) probably because of the steady pension they receive, and their practice of voting Republican. I welcome the servicemen, but I don't believe that their autocratic, chain-of-command mentality is going to be conducive to meeting the goal of diversity. I believe that both objectives are on a collision course.

There is a strong mentality here that is wrong-minded, based on propaganda, political motives and probably racism. So I find it's always best to stick to the high ground, and let the other side soil themselves by operating from the gutter.

kentuck

(111,052 posts)
17. Amen to that!
Wed May 27, 2015, 12:59 PM
May 2015

I came back twice, with my extra tour included, and I was never spit upon.

I think perhaps one's experiences, at that time, would have a lot to do with their perceptions. People's experiences were different.

I was there and I did not see it as a "noble" venture.

The longer I was there, the more "anti-war" I became.

I, and many others, spoke out and marched against the war. As the leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, John Kerry was a hero of mine.

But, I was never spit upon. And I did not know anyone that was spit upon, but I could not say that it never happened?

I think these types of propaganda, "anti-anti-war" propagandists, faithfully executed by government and media officials, had a lot to do with how people perceived Jane Fonda and "Hippies" that marched against the war? My perception of Jane Fonda and the "hippies" may have been different than most others at that time?

H2O Man

(73,506 posts)
20. Thank you.
Wed May 27, 2015, 03:49 PM
May 2015
http://mobile.legion.org/honor/225873/sidney-center-seven

I used to live in Sidney Center. The article at the above link tells of how this tiny hamlet had seven young men killed in a short span in Vietnam. But it really only tells part of the story.

My wife and I bought a house that had been her aunt, uncle, and cousins’ home back in the Vietnam era. Her cousin was one of the seven. His younger brother put a shotgun in his mouth on the day he found out his older brother had been killed. A year to the day later, the uncle hung himself.

Another seven young men from the larger township would die in DWI-related accidents in the next two years. None of us thought that was a coincidence.

I understand why Fox News etc attempts to promote the nonsense and lies found in the OP. It’s a shame to see that gutter shit posted on DU.

Paladin

(28,243 posts)
18. It'll be a cold day in hell before I EVER apologize for my anti-Vietnam activities.
Wed May 27, 2015, 01:10 PM
May 2015

I never spat on soldiers. I never referred to soldiers as "Baby Killers" (with the exception of those My Lai barbarians). Hell, the whole point of all the mobilization and demonstrating was to get our soldiers home from a pointless war, just as soon as possible. That doesn't sound like a "mistake" to me, and it never will. If you want to see a true mistake in its most graphic form, visit that wall memorial in D.C.---you know, that memorial that damn near didn't get built, because some of our asshole politicians objected to the architect being of Oriental heritage.

Baitball Blogger

(46,682 posts)
19. .
Wed May 27, 2015, 01:39 PM
May 2015


"Hell, the whole point of all the mobilization and demonstrating was to get our soldiers home from a pointless war, just as soon as possible."

Sancho

(9,067 posts)
21. I was in the draft, but my number was not picked...still, I protested against the war.
Wed May 27, 2015, 04:15 PM
May 2015

Most of the anger I saw was against the National Guard and recruiters, especially after Kent State. I did not see lots of attacks on vets, but it would not surprise me if a vet was defending protestors or arguing with them.

Yes, because of My Lai and bombing Hanoi, there were signs and chants about killing babies as I recall. Protests that I saw were generally peaceful. I did help take over a college office for a short while. We also caused a disruption at a college convocation. No spitting.

I didn't keep track, but as I recall our protests got much larger about 1971-72. I threatened to burn my draft card or move to Canada. My father (who had been a major in the Army in the 50's) threatened to cut me off. I stayed at college and worked and didn't go home for about a year.

Interesting times.

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