It's not just that the kid molested his sister that bugs me....

[LynneSin]

It's wrong but I'm not even sure I would go so far as to say that Josh Duggar is a pedophile. The kid grew up in this wacko household where sex talk was probably pretty much taboo so he probably wasn't taught any better. Does that justify what he did - HELL NO. Does that mean he's a pedophile today? Probably not. But if the kid was from any other household, he probably would have done time that's for sure.

But what really bothers me is this.

The Duggar family has spent the last five years or so using their fame and their TV show as a platform to promote their form of religon and their family as some sort of moral 'high ground'. The Duggar family felt because they were so 'Holy' and 'Devout' in their form of religion which including popping out 19 children and then homeschooling all those kids and raising these kids in a very strict moral religious way, that they could some how judge the rest of society as to what was morally right and what was morally not night.

And included in that was Marriage Equality.

Michelle Duggar was especially devoted in fighting against Marriage Equality. She was very vocal in how Gays and Lesbians and the LGBT community were some sort of Deviants who were sinners in the eyes of God and therefore should not be allowed to ever be allowed to have the same rights to marriage as straights. And god forbid if a gay or lesbian couple wanted to adopt *GASP* - think of the children and what those homosexuals might actually do to those kids.

This is the type of hate that the Duggars would preach and the Duggars felt they had the right to preach it because they were morally better than the rest of us.

Or so we thought.

Turns out super-duper religious over-breeding homeschooled breeders aren't so morally superior to the rest of us. Turns out these people have absolutely NO moral high ground - never had it, never deserved it. Maybe the Duggars should read their Bibles again and instead of figuring out reasons to hate on Gays or having a 20th kid (stuff from the Old Testament), try reading something Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-2:

"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.…

[BrotherIvan]

1. The argument that Josh didn't know what he was doing doesn't hold water

I sort of thought that at first, but the more I read about these whackos, the more it didn't hold up. I know you're trying to be logical and applying your good heart to these people, but something entirely different is going on here.

http://gawker.com/quiverfull-of-shit-a-guide-to-the-duggars-scary-brand-1706557073

One line of argument you might hear is that Josh Duggar didn’t know it was wrong to molest girls or that he didn’t know what he was doing. He comes from a culture in which women are forbidden from showing their shoulders in case it causes their brothers to stumble, where they aren’t allowed to dance or front hug their own siblings—so how would he not know it’s wrong to fondle their breasts and genitals?

Don’t let anyone tell you this. The Quiverfull fundamentalist Christians are obsessed with sex. It’s the ultimate sin: They’re always thinking about it, and they’re always categorizing what’s wrong and what’s right."

It's true, the strictures against sex of any kind such as front hugging or kissing, the constant demands of modesty from the girls, the provision to save even one's first kiss for marriage, all say that a 14 year-old boy in that household would absolutely know that touching his sisters sexually was wrong.

Then you read the reports and it wasn't just that he snuck into their rooms while they were sleeping, he was assaulting them at every opportunity.

In an incident in March 2003, a Duggar child said they were sitting in the assailant's lap reading a book when the person fondled them. Another reported the person put their hands under her dress in the laundry room.

And this happened over YEARS. I'm sure there are dozens if not hundreds of incidents that happened over the three years (or more). He was feeling up one of his sisters who may have been four or five at the time, so he would most definitely qualify as a pedophile.

I do agree with you that the icing on their hateful cake is that they then tried to spread their bigotry against marriage equality and claimed that transgender people would rape children. They are sick disgusting people who merely pretend to be so innocent. Michelle's sister is openly gay for fuck's sake. So it's not like she grew up in so much isolation. They are sick, disgusting grifters and their children suffered and continue to do so to this day. The real twist is how many OTHER rapists and pedophiles are also wrapped up in this case. What are the odds?

[Whiskeytide]

10. You're spot on regarding...

... the twisted obsession with sex. It must be ALL they ever think about (especially about how dirty and forbidden and ... and dirrrrty it is), and that says more about how dysfunctional they are than anything else.

Not to defend Josh (he certainly knew what he was doing was improper), but the more you tell a young teenager that something is a forbidden pleasure, the more they will naturally want to explore it. Couple that with the overall philosophy of subjugating and ultimately objectifying the females in the household, and it should be no surprise to any thinking person that he did what he did. Hell, it was - is - a perfect recipe for it!!

[BrotherIvan]

11. I don't know what would lead a kid to try on his sisters

But it is creepy to say the least and the parents should have stepped in and stopped it immediately. They are disgusting people for letting that go on.

[Whiskeytide]

24. Agreed. And those girls...

... desperately need counseling and support - which I suspect they are not getting. "Sweep it under the religion rug" is almost more abusive than the acts themselves.

I watched Anderson Cooper tonight. A guest said something to the effect of "what if Sandusky had said 'no worries - I made it right with God' "? How is this any different except the age of the offender? Which, I suppose should be part of the equation, but shouldn't prevent us from doing the math altogether.

[LibertyLover]

28. According to a story I read in the Washington Post this morning

the only counseling the girls probably got was from the Gothards. That's the wacko home schooling program the Duggars use. Bill Gothard had to retire from his home schooling ministry last year because of sexual abuse allegations from a number of women, which of course he denies and blames on the Devil. The article explained the group's teaching on sexual abuse, including that it wasn't that bad because it "only" happened to the body and not the spirit and that it was the victim's fault because enticed the abuser by immodest dress or actions. So, yeah, counseling - not so much.

[LynneSin]

14. Do NOT doubt for a minute that I give that kid a free pass for what he has done.

But to me it is beyond what he has done but what his family has done to this country.

For the Duggars to treat the LGBT community like they are pervs out to harm our children - turns out it was her own child we should have been worrying about instead.

[BrotherIvan]

23. Abso 100% lutely

And the fact that they actually don't give a shit about their children if they are not males so why on earth are they having more. They are disgusting people who are trying to spread their cult with the help of the media. I hope this whole story gives people a big dose distrust for anyone who points fingers. I've heard all over the net and even on DU: "They seem like such a nice family and the children are all well behaved." They don't understand that reality tv is anything but real. The whole thing makes me angry and gives me the creeps at the same time.

[Nevernose]

2. The father once advocated the death penalty for rape & incest

Back when he was running for senator. These people's hypocrisy knows no bounds.

[PeaceNikki]

3. Don't forget the work they also do to restrict women's choice.

They call abortion a "holocaust".

And, that's been a much more successful campaign nationwide in the past several years.

[JI7]

4. they talk about sex all the time and jimbob is always all over his wife in front of the kids

but they are always bragging about how they are better than others and wait until marriage and other shit.

[Liberal_in_LA]

5. they tossed stones from their glass house

[hollysmom]

6. yes and no

what he did was molesting, not experimenting, He was supposed to be reading stories to younger children and touched their private areas. This was not like peaking at your sisters in the shower. So it was a little more serious, He did it when some one them were sleeping and he did it was discovered and wa caught again after a year. the stories also say he has porn on the computer - so again, I do not think this was normal curiosity. He needed help, not tough love and a summer job.
Is his family weird - yes.
Will you ever hear about it from the abused - no - his sisters are taught to forgive the abuser or they will go to hell, let men make all their decisions, never question them. Don't be bitter, turn your body over to god. see all better now. even though he is still doing it. after the family caught the boy the second time they sent him away for 3 months,
this then boy/now guy has young daughters now, they are home schooled and not out of sight with no one to report to, so if he reoffends, you will never know. If he reoffended his sisters when he came back, you will never know.

He could be as pure as he driven snow now, but I suspect not only because when you molest a baby, that is not experimentation or curiosity it is power.

This is only an opinion, there are a few facts thrown in, but I have been accused of speculation so accept it as that.

The minister they get their sex ed information from was arrested for molesting a bunch of young girls who were sent to him for instruction. The Duggar girls were sent to his camp for instruction.

The youngest child who asked for the records to be destroyed (I admit they never should have been shared) is a Duggar daughter, you really think this was her idea?

The question here is why hove so many children that you can[t parent them all and you have to leave your other kids to be in charge of them?
I used to take care of my brothers when they were babies when I got home from school and until dinner and again after I finished my home work until their bed time , but my mother was the one they went to not me, sang to them held them loved them - not the worst thing in the world. Not the same in the Duggar family where the mother handed off the responsibility of mothering so she could give political speeches or home school these ideas into her kids heads.

[LiberalArkie]

7. Ya'll keep forgetting of what the main point is, that is that the man is the center of everything.

Women are only there to satisfy the mans needs. (/righteousness off)

Note: I attended Assemblies of God and a Holiness church in my younger days.

[PeaceNikki]

12. And women are responsible for original sin. Ergo, all sin.

It's all part of the core tenets of evangelical Christianity. Women are dangerous.

“And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through child-bearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. (1 Timothy 2:14-15… As a good Christian woman, the last thing I wanted was to be accused of having a “Jezebel Spirit”!! Jezebel is the bossy, bold and dominating woman, who ‘wears the pants’ in the family, and in the Bible account, things ended badly for her: “’Throw her down’Jehu said. So they threw her down and some of her blood spattered the wall and the horses as they trampled her underfoot.” (2 Kings 9:33)

Here's a really terrifying and great blog by a woman who escaped that life:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2014/09/vyckie-garrison-how-playing-good-christian-wife-almost-killed-me/

PeaceNikki, recovered WELS

[LiberalArkie]

20. I would not go so far as to say all evangelical, as much as I would say Pentecostal.

The funny thing is that most of the Pentecostal churches are really run by the women. They really believe in taking on the subservient role, and out of that role they have the power over the men in the church, and maybe control the younger women.

[Baitball Blogger]

8. This is a con-job that has been playing out for many decades.

And like any con-job, the ruse is eventually exposed. The key to what happens next decides what kind of society we live in. Con-jobs have been allowed to stand without intervention from the authorities. Don't know why that happens, but it does. If there is no public outrage, there is no one who is held responsible. That's what should stop. When one of these autocrats get caught, punishment should be swift. ESPECIALLY, if they have a high profile or leadership role.

[randr]

9. They run a family business

Religion and morality have nothing to do with their agenda, they are just props used to sell their snake oil.

[PeaceNikki]

13. Wrong. Religion is a huge part of it.

[randr]

16. Only because religeous people are so gullible

[PeaceNikki]

17. And because organized religion is so manipulative and controlling.

They have brainwashed these people into thinking that they will burn in hell for all eternity and they teach women that they can only be saved through a righteous man and childbirth. Women are also taught that if they stray from God, they are responsible for their childrens' souls as well.

[Ineeda]

15. What are the odds that one of those nineteen

is homosexual? Poor kid doesn't stand a chance to be emotionally sound. Shame on those parents.

[hollysmom]

19. well, the mother's sister is a lesbian and they do not talk to her.

[Dont call me Shirley]

18. But they were just playing doctor

[Major Nikon]

21. The idea that the super religious are morally superior has been busted so many times....

that the thought of them holding the moral high ground is preposterous.

Few things are as evil as child molestation. The fact that it happens within these families isn't surprising. It's not even surprising these families would try to cover it up. What is surprising is the extensive networks within certain religious communities that are engaged in covering up child molestation. That's where the worst of it is. At the extreme end you have the FLDS, but you also find it within the RCC and protestant churches.

[passiveporcupine]

22. just curious, does anyone know

if boys/men in the quiverfull movement are allowed to masturbate, or are they taught that is a sin too?

It might explain his search for titillation, if he was never exposed to anything arousing, whether educationally or not, during a time his hormones were exploding.

I was looking for information on this when I came across this 2014 article in Vice...it is pretty disgusting, but it sheds light on how the women are trapped in this patriarchal society, and are not even allowed to object or protest it...they are ruled by the men. Which may be why this was allowed to go on so long in the Duggar family.

I'm not going to post the article here, but please read this if you want more info on this kind of family interaction. It's chilling.

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/a-masturbation-lawsuit-is-rattling-christian-homeschoolers

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

25. Maybe everybody else already saw this, maybe it was the center of the OPs on Duggar defenders, but

I just was smacked in the face with this

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/05/26/duggar-relative-anyone-would-molest-kids-given-opportunity-and-no-consequences/

On Sunday, Jessa Duggar’s father-in-law, Michael Seewald, spoke out in a lengthy essay where he defended admitted child molester Josh Duggar in perhaps the absolute worst way, even when compared to some of the other right-wing Christian defenses of the embattled kid-toucher.

According to Seewald, only consequences keep us from acting as Duggar did when he molested five children in their beds. Seewald said that Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar “are to be commended” for their roles in covering up their son’s crimes, reporting them only to a law enforcement officer who is currently serving more than 50 years in prison for possession of photos of naked childre

Made me feel I needed a shower just reading it.

Also gives meaning to the phrase 'God-fearing' man. He'd do all sorts of horrific things if he didn't fear God and the 'consequences', and assumes everyone else is similarly only refraining from from committing evil constantly out of 'fear of consequences'.

[raccoon]

26. That's one of the things that chaps me about people who claim to be super-religious,

Turns out super-duper religious over-breeding homeschooled breeders aren't so morally superior to the rest of us. Turns out these people have absolutely NO moral high ground - never had it, never deserved it

That's how it usually is, isn't it?

[Kalidurga]

27. I agree with a lot that you are saying.

And I rec'd because well I agree with a lot that you are saying.

It's been covered that Josh did indeed know what he was doing was wrong, it was preached at him that it was wrong from before he could walk and talk. He was raised in a sexcentric household where nearly every kind of sex is taboo. Almost all orientations are considered a sin. And people who do not fit into the gender roles they believe they should fit into i.e. those who are LGBT or even women who are masculine but straight or men who are feminine but straight, those people and they would say those people aren't normal and they don't even deserve the same basic respect anyone else gets and they sure don't deserve equal treatment under the law. So I think this is sexual abuse and every child in that house was sexually abused and their parents didn't have to touch them to make it abuse IMO. They talked about sex all the time, they were hyper focused on dressing modestly so as not to make men aroused so even the way they dressed was sexcentric. Of course they would say it's the opposite that they were protecting the girls modesty and making it easier on boys and men to not be aroused, but it's like putting pretty paper on a gift and telling someone to not think about it. And that is what they viewed the girls as, virginal gifts to give to men. They were not viewed as girls or young women with minds of their own.

There are a lot of threads on this subject that go into the hypocrisy of the Duggar's, so I won't rehash that here. It's obvious that the father at least didn't believe anything he was saying about child molesters at least not when it happens that they are a close relative. Here is the worst thing IMO about that, they brand themselves as pure and everyone else is dirty. Yet, they are the ones with ties to serial sexual harasser, who had financial ties to Hobby Lobby, a dirty cop that was into child porn and is serving a 60 year sentence for that, to Mike Huckabee who raised a son who killed a dog at a Boy Scout camp and then Huckabee proceeded to use the state police to cover up the crime. So, it's worse than hypocrisy, they have built an entire culture around purity and a network of politicians that will help them cover up their crimes.

And like you said they held themselves up to be a model family and any family that wasn't like them is sinful, falls short of being a good family, and perhaps going to hell. They did this and yet failed to protect their daughters. Then they sent their daughters to a camp run by a guy who was accused by around 30-40 women of sexual harassment for counselling the camp was built on land donated by Hobby Lobby. This isn't a mistake it's part of the pressure they (ma and pa Duggar) uses to keep their girls silent. It isn't going to be lost on them that their entire world consists of people who would think that they were the ones to blame for their own abuse and that most everyone in their world would think they are dirty. It isn't going to be lost on them that their dad has a lot of political connections and that he knows or knew at least one person in law enforcement. I think they are well aware of how big a trap they are in.

The Duggar parents didn't just have a lapse of judgement by not protecting their daughters. They built and nurtured the very system that allowed their son to believe he could get away with it and then they proved to him he was right. They created the sexcentric environment that made all of their children acutely attuned to feelings of arousal and promptly called those feelings sinful. They had special clothes to cover up their tendencies to be sinful. They were taught that a girls greatest gift to the world is her virginity and that she alone is responsible for protecting that gift and she does this by being modest. And if someone molests her, rapes her, or if she has sex, then of course it's her fault and her fault alone for not being devout enough, praying enough, or loving God enough. It's never the predators fault, because the predator can't help being aroused around immodest girls/women who aren't praying 24 hours a day and who's only words are to praise God.

I thought it didn't really get worse than the Duggars, but yet it does there are people out there now that are defending all of this. Or who compare the focus on the abuse in that family as being obsessed with their every move including how much they pass gas. And then there are the ones that say well liberals do it too. Or that liberals are demonizing them while ignoring other sexual predators. What I haven't seen yet is even one Conservative to speak out against them. Or any Christian groups speak out and demand justice. I don't think it's too much to ask for a little bit of outrage without the accompanying finger pointing or worse yet the finger pointing without even a hint of outrage.


Sorry for the long post. I am sick and tired of this game the RW plays of just when you think they can't go any lower they start defending the worst people.