General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHeadline: ...The Duggar Discipline Method: "They Have a Rod"
But theres another accusation in the police report that the Duggars have not addressed. In a police interview with an unnamed Duggar child, the child admits to an investigator that the Duggar parents spank their children, and that they have a rod.
(snip)
Blanket training is a parenting method that comes from the dangerous, backwards, evangelical parenting book To Train Up a Child by Michael and Debi Pearl. The Pearl method relies on corporal punishment to teach children total obedience, and its terrifyingat least three child deaths have been linked to the teachings in the book.
Blanket training is the Pearls first step to molding obedient children: starting in infancy, parents put their baby on a blanket and flick them with a flexible ruler or other instrument if the baby tries to roll or crawl off. Eventually, the baby is trained to ignore his or her natural curiosity and stay on the blanket, because he or she is scared.
More on the Quiverfull "training" from a commenter:
The Pearls recommend whipping infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They describe whipping their own 4 month old daughter (p.9). They recommend whipping the bare skin of every child (p.2) for Christians and non-Christians (p.5) and for every transgression (p.1). Parents who dont whip their babies into complete submission are portrayed as indifferent, lazy, careless and neglectful (p.19) and are creating a Nazi (p.45).
On p.60 they recommend whipping babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them to get up. On p.61 they recommend whipping a 12 month old girl for crying. On p.79 they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming.
On p.65 co-author Debi Pearl whips the bare leg of a 15 month old she is babysitting, 10 separate times, for not playing with something she tells him to play with. On p.56 Debi Pearl hits a 2 year old so hard a karate chop like wheeze came from somewhere deep inside.
On p.44 they say not to let the childs crying while being hit to cause you to lighten up on the intensity or duration of the spanking. On p.59 they recommend whipping a 3 year old until he is totally broken.
http://defamer.gawker.com/police-report-reveals-the-duggar-discipline-method-th-1707154965
So, the goal of this religious sect is to psychologically break a child. Not for any defensible purpose mind you; just to fully crush the will of another human being in order to take full control of them. This was the goal, we'll recall, of the Bush / Cheney torture regime. To reduce a person to a softly whimpering ball of fear and obedience, so as not to have to argue with a rational, functioning human being who might dare to disagree with you.
Brainwashing. Nothing more or less.
Some people say these stories about the Duggars are gleeful bashing of a famous family; or some kind schadenfreude on the part of people who dont share their beliefs. I dont think so.
I had not heard of them that I recall before the news of the son having molested his siblings and others, but I don't think it's a cruel coincidence that this family of religious extremists obsessed with the sexual conduct of others found a disturbed sexual predator within their family.
I think they made him that way.
Its good to have a chance to examine and talk about exactly where the people who want to tell women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies are coming from. THIS is where. Baby whipping and incestuous rape. Insanity, cruelty; ignorance. Its not ironic that a fanatically puritanical family would turn out to be steeped in depravity and abuse. And above all, an endless capacity for hypocrisy, pointing and screaming about the supposed improprieties of others, while nurturing and sheltering the worst of human depravity in their own ranks.
It's not a coincidence. It's cause and effect.
THIS is where all of that thinking comes from, and where it leads. Terrified repression of sexuality, of choice, even to the point of trying to terrify an infant into total subjugation.
And yet people stand before our legislators and, with their enthusiastic cooperation, pretend that it's just a natural, perhaps even pious, way of thinking that perhaps a woman or even a child, raped or subject to incest, should be physically forced to give birth.
When they can, they also suggest that maybe a grown woman has no business even using birth control, based on these religious convictions regarding how sexuality and reproduction should work.
These are not the people who should be setting the national agenda on how we deal with reproductive freedom, or health insurance, or, frankly, anything. Their point of view proceeds from a toxic obsession with, and fear of, normal human relations, freedom of choice, and life without shame over our own biology.
These are child molesters and rapists, arguing for laws that would make women carry the children of child molesters and rapists. They are sexual scolds not because sex is evil, but because their own crazed thoughts about sex are evil. They are projecting their sickness onto everyone else, and yet we listen to them as though they might have a point.
Enough.
Baitball Blogger
(46,570 posts)Disgusting.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)I guess maybe they still "break" horses, although they definitely don't become mindlessly obedient from what I've seen.
But we don't even try to "break" dogs any more. I remember decades ago a family member deliberately intimidated his young dog so much that it rolled over and "offered its throat." He was only doing what the puppy training manuals said at the time, but you won't see much of that talk now. Far more focus on positive reinforcement and developing a relationship with a dog where it knows you're ultimately in charge, but isn't in fear that it must mindlessly obey or be brutalized.
A "broken" animal is a sad creature.
A broken human being apparently grows up to molest children and preach extreme religious views.
Everyone has a right to a belief system, but we don't have to pretend this kind of thinking is healthy or the basis for a reasonable view on what the law should be.
Baitball Blogger
(46,570 posts)of "broken" religious family members that will not stand up to racist patriarchs and will obey them in whatever anti-social behavior the patriarch can dream up. Imagine what can go wrong in a society when that patriarch is an ex police chief, for example, and the local police department won't touch him or his cronies as a courtesy.
That can happen in our red suburban counties.
Whatever they get away with creates the current environment we live in where up is down, and down is up.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)"Stay on the blanket for Jesus."
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)It's tempting to want to start agility training early, but the experts say you shouldn't do too much agility and jumping work until about 18 months of age, when the bones have had time to strengthen.
Oh, my bad. We're talking about human babies and not dogs. It's hard to tell from the garbage linked in the OP. These people are scary.
get the red out
(13,458 posts)And if I had beaten my Border Collie for not going over the teeter for two years I would have a very poor relationship with my dog.
But then we're talking about beating kiddies for Jesus, sigh.
I have been attacked on numerous message boards for pointing out what the Duggar cult was all about, I've been such a "hater", and it was none of my business, and so on. Sad that my prediction of some kind of molestation probably coming to light someday was correct.
But I'm just a hater whose going to hell. (I hope there are dog agility trials in Hell, I'll miss them if there aren't.)
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I like my BC WAY better than any of these bozos. Finnegan and I will save you a seat in hell.
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)to the point where she learned a few words of English to get me to obey!
but she never hit me. That is one smart dog.
get the red out
(13,458 posts)We will need a bit of crate space in hell.
Finnegan is a great name for a BC!
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)LynneSin
(95,337 posts)think about it.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I'm just using "hell" as a conversational device, but I'm betting the Duggar clan believes in an actual, literal lake of fire. They can have it.
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)only offer that as a measure of how out of whack these people are.
we've literally changed our language with regard to canines from "breaking" to "training" b/c of the perception that you don't want to "break" the dog's will. this, after reading about how you want to work his/her behavior to mold it.
TLC needs to start running programming to atone for this BS. maybe a few years of families living off the grid doing permaculture. or, city dwellers who take their kids to museums and theater.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)"I need to 'break' that?"
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)I'll just leave it at that. (sigh and cry).
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)and now they're trying to blame it on secularism and evolution??!! for crying out loud -- take some responsibility for your actions. that's what you "preach" isn't it?
"ENOUGH" is right!
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)and encourages child abuse by parents who never had to feel the pain they are giving to their child. Nice. these people all need to be put somewhere where their spirit is broken by beatings. maybe something stronger than flickers - maybe something that brings out those karate chop wheezes
countryjake
(8,554 posts)It all depends on how far a family chooses to uphold their extreme fundamentalist belief. In Christian Domestic Discipline, the patriarch is also required to discipline his wife if she is rebellious or disobedient.
I don't know if this is also a part of being Duggared, but we had some fanatic fundamentalists here in the Pacific Northwest who used methods from the Pearl's how-to manual on child abuse and during the trial in which both parents were eventually convicted of abusing their adopted little girl to death, part of the wife's defense was that she had been subjected to "punishment" by her husband, too.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)doesn't it?
This is exactly the point: Somehow we still put up with the idea that there is a kind of admirable "piousness" to religious beliefs that at bottom are a kind of cultural scam to, among other things, subjugate women.
Somehow it's still possible to mount a political campaign centered around the idea of returning to ancient thinking and practices because they are somehow morally superior, when in fact they are just the opposite of that.
Looking at you, Mike Huckabee.
countryjake
(8,554 posts)Political agenda: Jim Bob (left) is pictured alongside his eldest son, Josh (center), and Mike Huckabee, whom he endorsed in 2008 in line with his intention to seek out conservative Christian candidates and work to get them elected. During Jim Bob's years in state office Josh accompanied his father and was homeschooled
Award: In April 2004, then-Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee, far right, named Michelle 'Arkansas Young Mother of the Year' at the Capitol in Little Rock. Above, Michelle poses with the award and her children.
Presidential campaign: In January 2012, 12 of the Duggar children joined Jim Bob in Iowa to campaign for then-presidential candidate, Rick Santorum (pictured right front). Donning their Sunday best, they posted for photos with Santorum volunteers and fans, and spoke of how Santorum 'stands up for what is right'
Josh and his wife, Anna (both left), are seen posing with Santorum and his spouse, Karen, a few years later
On the road: Josh and Anna are pictured with Senator Tom Cotton and his wife as they kickoff their Faith, Family and Freedom Tour in Arkansas in 2014
'Stand for life': Josh Duggar posted this photo from the Family Research Council's Stand For Life event
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3093136/How-squeaky-clean-photo-launched-Duggars-fame-2002-belied-sordid-molestation-secret-home.html#ixzz3bOEgXSHF
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Good compilation there. Jesus -- so telling: Huckabee, Cotton, Santorum. It's a con job (whether they themselves realize it or not) invented by fearful men to keep women and children "in line."
THESE are are "pro-life" advocates; the ones who feel entitled to tell others how to handle their sex lives and their children.
No. A thousand thousand times NO.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)while the jails where they belong are filled with pot dealers and smokers.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)get the red out
(13,458 posts)The husband can basically beat his wife for anything, house not clean enough, dinner 10 minutes late. Even sometimes because he hasn't beaten her in a while and needs to show her he's still boss.
Sickening.
Initech
(99,909 posts)It's not an excuse to get away with this crap. These people and this kind of discipline is more the real danger to families than, god forbid gay couples get the right to marry.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)... they're utterly wrong.
Religious tradition is basically just older culture as I see it. So it contains some reasonable values and traditions, and some terrible ones.
But because it's old, and imbued with the belief that it comes from a higher power, some will argue a "traditional" value is inherently good.
To fair, though, I suspect that as far back as you go, some people did not have these oppressive views of discipline or sexuality. Certainly plenty of religious people today do not.
It's just that when we go discuss whether something makes any sense or not, religion and tradition are accorded an extra measure of respect they do not necessarily deserve.
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)countryjake
(8,554 posts)because of how invested some of these fanatics are in upholding Patriarchy.
Like in Trumad's most recent post with that sickening look on the Duggar woman's face...first thought that popped into my head after I clicked into his thread was Christian Domestic Discipline...I wonder if she gets "spankings"?
We already know that her husband is trying to fuck her to death with the way that the Duggars condemn the use of birth-control. That wife's subjugation appears to be total, to me.
I've never seen the Duggar freak show, but I've read plenty about their religious stances and political affiliations, and I do know that they vigorously promoted Michael and Debi Pearl's book, How to Break a Child Without Getting Caught, right up until the adoptive parents of little Hana Williams were convicted of torturing, starving, and beating her to death four years ago.
In her case that I referred to in my first reply, it was nigh onto impossible to get my County to take action against the bastards who murdered her, and the term "good religious family" was echoed throughout the Skagit Valley continually, in the Williams' defense.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6724138
hamsterjill
(15,214 posts)I've commented before on DU threads about the Duggars - wondering how they got all of the smaller children to be happy all the time, sit still for photographs, etc.
NOW...I know how. Child abuse beginning at birth.
This family is disgusting and I don't see how ANYONE can possibly be defending the actions of Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar. While Josh and his current smug attitude and past actions make me cringe, I give him a teeny smidgeon of compassion for the upbringing that he (himself) must've endured.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Not any of the other boys, necessarily
lostnfound
(16,138 posts)brainwashed from day one, all of them. It will be a miracle if any of them break free of their cultish upbringing.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)is so destructive. The obsession over sex and control of others leads to a kind of self-fulfillng prophecy.
Oppress someone, tell them they are evil, and that sex must be rigidly controlled ... and watch, as they become a monster.
We need to recognize that it's not just hypocrisy or irony when a fanatic bent on telling everyone else how to live turns out to be twisted and damaged.
The twistedness and the damage are what lead people to obsess over other people's sex lives, and the obsession leaves them twisted and damaged.
It's a truly horrible dynamic, and yet it's woven into the fabric of our culture here.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)I bet this also helps make the child intellectually incurious- which I am sure that is exactly what they want.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Incredibly demented, isn't it?
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)calimary
(80,693 posts)This is UTTERLY HIDEOUS. Just HIDEOUS!
They should burn in Hell for all eternity for doing this to their kids. How many of those kids are so broken that they'll turn around and do that to THEIR kids? HORRIFYING!!!!
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)It's called State Prison. And for a damn, good long while.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)vanlassie
(5,637 posts)These people are sick.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)birth control; health insurance for women.
This is the mindset. Rigid, vicious control over the sexual conduct of others, justified by an irrational conviction that their opinions derive from a magical power. This is where dark and dangerous and irresponsible attitudes about sex comes from, and we act as though they speak from sacred tradition to be given equal weight with those of reasonable people.
Our leaders invite people like this to speak on important issues and afford them outsized reverence, as though their pious nonsense should hold water with anyone.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)mnhtnbb
(31,315 posts)from these perverts come to light.
I could never understand why TLC dedicated a show to these people.
You knew there had to be some very cruel treatment of these kids
going on...and that Michelle was a totally brainwashed robot programmed
to deny the needs of her existing children in favor of the right of that
a$$hole husband to impregnate her as often as he felt like it.
Sick, twisted, demented perverts, all in the name of religion.
Response to DirkGently (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
niyad
(112,424 posts)to see happen, but. . . . .
may all of them receive everything they deserve.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)libdem4life
(13,877 posts)tree and hit on bare skin. The Rod...you beat a child, can easily break bones clothed or not clothed. It's terrifying.
And her version of "Blanket Training"...I'm not going to go there again. Infant abuse.
Yes, I agree, OP. Enough
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)uppityperson
(115,674 posts)Oh yeah, my child was not beaten into submission and went on to take over countries and murder millions.
Furthermore, ironic much?