This is What I Believe.

[sheshe2]

Last edited Sat May 30, 2015, 12:34 AM - Edit history (1)

Economic Justice vs Social Justice.

If we focus on the first, then we will get the second. At least that is what I am told. Sorry, I don't believe that for a moment. Trickle down Justice will not work and that is a fact.

No. These are issues that need to be tied together. It is not one without the other.

People of Color

What will your economic justice buy you?

Will you fear less when your child leaves the house in the morning?
Will you no longer feel the need to have "The Talk" with your children?
Will your child no longer be profiled, staked and shot in the back, while the perp a cop gets off stock free because he feared for his life.
Will you no longer feel discriminated against when you apply for a job.
Will you freely have the right to vote with the ease of the white community.
Will this end?
The School-to-Prison Pipeline Starts in Preschool

The school-to-prison pipeline, to my mind, is the most insidious arm of this country’s prison-industrial complex. Under the guise of protecting our children, we push many of them out of school and into prisons, limit their opportunities, fail to and/or undereducate them, all while feeding our addiction to mass incarceration and retribution that is not justice at all. That the students who find themselves funneled into the school-to-prison pipeline are predominantly black is further proof that the United States system of racist oppression chugs along through the rhetoric of colorblindness.

Now that we have the niceties out of the way, let’s talk about what really makes the school-to-prison pipeline the worst.
Henry Giroux on the School-to-Prison Pipeline
A study conducted by US Department of Education Office for Civil Rights shows that black preschoolers (yes, four and five year olds) make up almost half of all out-of-school suspensions for preschoolers. What any preschool student has to do in order to be suspended is beyond me. That said, black students are receiving the message — at younger and younger ages — that their behavior will be regarded differently, as inherently more disruptive and therefore more deserving of punishment. They are being denied the right to their formative years of education and socialization. And then we wonder why there is an “education gap.”

http://billmoyers.com/2014/03/31/the-school-to-prison-pipeline-starts-in-preschool/

LGBT

What will your economic justice buy you?

Will you be free to marry the one you love, freely and without fear?
Will you be able to express your sexual orientation at your job without fear of losing it.
Will you be able to walk down the street holding the hand the hand of the one you love without being assaulted?
Will you be able to adopt and raise the family you always wanted?
Will you have the right to be at the side of your beloved if they are hurt or dying.
Will this stop happening?

Gen Silent is a 2011 critically acclaimed documentary film, directed and produced by award winning filmmaker Stu Maddux. The documentary follows the lives of six LGBT seniors living in the Boston area who must choose if they will hide their sexuality in order to survive in the long-term health care system. It has been screened at numerous colleges and universities as well as in front of government agencies and healthcare organizations. It premiered at the Boston LGBT Film Festival and has won numerous awards at others.


The title of the film is a reference to the generations of older LGBT people who remain in the closet or re enter the closet out of concern for their safety or quality of life. As a result of the documentary, the term Gen Silent has increased in use as a way to refer to this group.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024640026

~and this
What would you do if you were old, disabled or ill - and the person feeding you put down the spoon

What would you do if you were old, disabled or ill - and the person feeding you put down the spoon and said that you are going to hell unless you change your sexual preference?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017215990

Women

What will your economic justice buy you?

Will you finally be treated equally in what always has mans world?
Will you no longer fear being beaten by an abusive spouse or significant other.?
Will you no longer fear that lawmakers will refused to reauthorize VAWA?
Will you no longer fear being accused by the the people and the courts for your own rape?
Will you be allowed to control your own body, from abortion to birthcontrol decisions?
Will this stop happening?

Women or Objects?

Amidst the crowd of around 3000 people the artists portrayed them as bronze sculptures. The artists used performance art to protest for violence against women in a silent way. The performance art was to aware the public in an effective way and to get efficient response from the concerned authorities and the government.

The artists of “Women or Objects?” were Mahima Singh and the team from Youth safe (Dikshya Shah, Anusha Sapkota, Kabita Rai, Sanju Pariyar). The main message flown from this performance was to appeal to the people not to treat women just as mere objects and respect them and provide equal rights and dignity as their male counter parts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025506241

No More
*************Trigger Warning****************

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026181710

I say no to Economic Justice without Social Justice. They stand together or they do not. Trickle down justice will not work.

[HERVEPA]

1. I'm sorry. Is there someone running who is not going to support racial justice

and thinks it's unimportant. I guess I missed that.
Oh, and try editing yourself a bit if you want more people to read your stuff.

[beam me up scottie]

2. I must have missed it too.

Maybe some more pictures and references to racist christian men while complaining about Bernie Sanders would help.

[sheshe2]

87. You missed this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026749264

[beam me up scottie]

89. It's an op ed piece, not the GOTCHA quote you're desperately pretending it is.

But keep pedaling that swift boat of yours around in circles, I'm sure you'll get to shore eventually.

Just to be on the safe side though, you should pray for a good stiff breeze.



PS: even if you ever get proof that Bernie doesn't care about social justice (and you won't) your credibility will still be ruined.

Your thread associating a Jewish man whose family was wiped out in the Holocaust with racist slave owners and cops posing with a black man wearing antlers finished you as far as I'm concerned.

[sheshe2]

90. Well a Bernie supporter thought it was great!

Keep the wind beneath your wings and fly~ fly away.

Lol~

[beam me up scottie]

92. Ikr? Who cares about the truth as long as you can score points?

[sheshe2]

98. You don't!

[beam me up scottie]

100. More smilie faces to add to your collection of pictures.

Impressive.

Let me know if you actually post anything of substance.

[sheshe2]

102. So is your response~

I do believe it was, wait a sec.

Here ya go~

[beam me up scottie]

110. Your disgusting attempt to use women and lgbt people to smear an honest man failed.

I know who fights for my rights, I don't need you to 'spain it to me.

You don't speak for me.

[ucrdem]

125. I did not find Sanders' public letter of Jan. 5 to USTR Froman to be honest.

Specifically this:



from: http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/letter-to-united-states-trade-representative?inline=file

Evidently this is not even close to the truth:

USTR told HuffPost it had ramped up congressional outreach, and has held nearly 1,600 meetings on Capitol Hill over the trade pact.

“Senator Sanders, like all Members of Congress, has full access to the draft TPP negotiating text and we look forward to working with him to review it," USTR spokesman Trevor Kincaid said. "Members of Congress, labor unions, non-profits, and environmentalists have all played an important role in shaping our approach to our trade policy. This includes Senator Sanders, whose input USTR has received on a dozen occasions on issues ranging from clean energy manufacturing to cheese."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/05/bernie-sanders-michael-froman-tpp_n_6419874.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000013

Which is by way of saying that Senator Sanders has many good qualities but honest is perhaps not the best way to characterize him.

[beam me up scottie]

126. Now you're using the TPP to smear Sanders?

And he's the dishonest one?




If you guys are going to keep this up you should sell tickets.

[ucrdem]

127. I'm using his false claims about it to suggest that he is not without flaws in the honesty dept. nt

[beam me up scottie]

128. Hillary just called.

She said to tell you to stop "helping" her.

[cali]

131. I find that this post like all your other posts on the tpp

is lacking any intellectual honesty. Senator after senator and Rep after Rep, have clearly stated that the extreme limitations on access are make the claim of access a hollow and cynical.

[BainsBane]

135. That honest man is not more important than the people he represents

That was the point of my OP. You clearly think he is. That is the sort of attitude for which I have no respect. That sort of deference for authority, for great men above the people he represents is anti-democratic. You could make a case by providing evidence to contradict her point and show that Sanders is strong on those issues, but working to silence people because they dare to question a great man is simply wrong.

You don't speak for me either. I don't revere any politician above the people he seeks to represent, and I see a view that does as anti-egalitarian and anti-democratic. We are considering candidates to serve the people, not to be revered.

No wonder you couldn't articulate a critique of my OP. All you care about is promoting a single politician, a great man. Everything else is merely pretext for that incredibly narrow concern of reverence for a member of the political elite.

A politician is not a cause. He is a public servant. Placing any politician above the citizens is an odds with civic engagement and any kind of people's movement.

[beam me up scottie]

140. Stop telling me what I think, you know NOTHING about me.

No wonder you couldn't articulate a critique of my OP. All you care about is promoting a single politician, a great man. Everything else is merely pretext for that incredibly narrow concern of reverence for a member of the political elite.

My god do you ever let anything go?

It wasn't enough that you had your ass handed to you in your thread by Prism, now you're bringing that shit into this thread.

You were told repeatedly that your behaviour was extremely offensive and you refuse to see why your use of members of the AA forum as "research" for your pet project is despicable. Just because you deleted your comment doesn't mean people won't remember what you said.

Get a grip, you're making a spectacle out of yourself.

[Zorra]

78. The bottom line is that this whole argument does not make any logical sense.

Logic equation:

A: Bernie Sanders has a platform advocating for both economic and social justice.

B: Because Bernie Sanders has a platform advocating for economic justice, he cannot support social justice.

C: This line of thought makes no logical sense whatsoever.

It's insane, it makes no sense whatsoever, and it is what makes me believe that everyone pushing this "if Bernie supports economic justice he cannot support social justice" crap is either totally full of Third Way corporatist bullshit, or is totally out of touch with reality.

Not one of them has ever made any effort to explain how and why it is impossible to support social justice and economic justice at the same time.

Which leaves me no choice but to believe that their argument is nothing but Third Way RW bullshit.

[sheshe2]

86. Lol~Edit myself...

Here is something your team posted. Hmmmmmmmmmmm~

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026749264

Nite.

[Zorra]

93. "Here is an actual quote from Bernie Sanders

given LAST NIGHT on mass incarcerations that speaks directly to social justice"....

QUESTION: We have a law enforcement quota, 34,000 immigrants are to be detained daily. Congress mandates that for a price tag of 2 billion dollars a year. About 60 percent of that is going to two corporations, Corrections Corporation of America and GEO. We are detaining people that present no threat, immediate threat to themselves or us. And then we see a certain Senator accepting campaign donations,

SANDERS: She's not talking about me so be clear (laughter and applause from audience)

QUESTION:– then he's voting against his own comprehensive immigration reform bill. I would like to know would you help us shut down the for-profit prisons, would you you shift money away from detaining people to other more humane methods, immigration judges for examples and would you work for comprehensive immigration reform?

SANDERS: The answer is, yes, yes ,yes. Clearly one of the crises we face in our nation is that we have more people behind bars than any other country on earth China is a nation that is 3 or 4 times larger than us population wise, it is an authoritarian country Communist country, and we have far more people behind bars than does China. And what we do in our jails is we run a great educational system, we education people how to be even better criminals. So it seems to me that rather than spending huge amounts of money on jails and on private corporations who are incentivized to keep people in jail, it might make a lot more sense to spend money on job training and education so that people do not end up in jail in the first place. And yes I'm certainly in favor of comprehensive education reform.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026749264#post46

BTW, the rofl smilie is DU's white flag of surrender in a discussion.

[NYC_SKP]

3. I think our candidates can and MUST do both and do them well.

In fact, can't it be said that to do one well we MUST do the other?

That's my take, and I'm confident that some candidates rise to that challenge.

And, I'm sorry to say, saying one thing well, like being an outspoken supporter of POC, while not acting consistently on the other matter constitutes failure to truly represent.

You can't, for example, want single parent families to thrive on one hand and fight for fracking and outsourcing jobs on the other.

That's how I see it. I look at the whole candidate, their rhetoric and their record.

Let's keep fighting for those most in need.

[sheshe2]

5. Yet this was posted, SKP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026749264

[seabeyond]

13. thank you for pointing me to this OP. that was VERY disappointing. but clear. really

really clear.

[sheshe2]

20. Ya, it was, sea.

I know you are a supporter, he is a good guy. Yet not for me.

[seabeyond]

21. very disappointing. i cannot believe that this is his stand. i cant do that.

i cant respect that.

[sheshe2]

43. I know sea. nt

[cui bono]

145. Did you guys rehearse this routine?

Now you are taking an opinion piece as gospel and omg you are so disappointed and simply cannot believe Sanders would have a stance that is fabricated by a blogger.

If you think for one minute that anyone believes you are a Sanders supporter... please.

[Scootaloo]

57. ...In response to your weird, wild, and wacky OP, sheshe2

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6737025

[Marr]

4. Anyone telling you to choose between the two is a fucking con artist.

Liberals fight for both because they are intertwined. The only segment of the Democratic Party that has pushed for one and not the other are self-described "centrists" who want Democratic votes and Wall Street money.

[mattclearing]

96. Exactly right. n/t

[LostOne4Ever]

6. K&R (nt)

[PatrickforO]

7. I hear what you're saying sheshe2, but how about policies that promote both?

[sheshe2]

8. Patrick that is what I am saying.

"If we focus on the first, then we will get the second. At least that is what I am told. Sorry, I don't believe that for a moment. Trickle down Justice will not work and that is a fact.

No. These are issues that need to be tied together. It is not one without the other".

These are my words.

[TDale313]

9. Both need to go hand in hand.

so far, I have not felt like supporting Bernie means sacrificing one for the other. I can't say the same about Hillary.

It's early, and yes, I want to hear more from Bernie on issues of social justice. And if he really doesn't address them then he will only be running to raise an important issue and not to seriously try and win the nomination or presidency. But I think and hope he will address them.

[seabeyond]

15. he believes it will only come as the result of economic equality.

that would be economics justice trickle down to social justice. (which was my fear)

This isn't an accidental oversight. These simply aren't issues Sanders is passionate about in the way he's passionate about economic injustice.

Sanders) became frustrated with his fellow student activists, who were more interested in race or imperialism than the class struggle.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026749264

[beam me up scottie]

59. He never said that, people should quit making shit up.

If you've got proof he doesn't believe in social justice - post it.

[seabeyond]

64. it does not seem he is talking about it. where would you like me to get the info? is this NOT a

reliable source? let me know.

i did not make up shit, .... i copy and pasted from someone who represents him, correct?

i will go back and look to see who it is. you know?

[beam me up scottie]

65. That was my point, it's someone's opinion, NOT Bernie's.

I was not implying that you made it up personally.

[AgingAmerican]

66. He has a long, long record on civil rights

And it has been posted ad nauseum.

[Violet_Crumble]

67. He does talk about it. Here's the link. AGAIN....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026743489

[beam me up scottie]

68. Thanks Violet!

[Violet_Crumble]

80. No worries, scottie. I'd already posted that link in another thread where they were saying the same.

It was pointedly ignored and the accusation was moved into other threads and repeated again. I don't understand why there's a burning desire to try to paint a man who's been very strong on social issues as some sort of danger to the rights of women, LGBT and African Americans when that's obviously not so.

Have yrself a great weekend!

[beam me up scottie]

81. It's a disgusting smear campaign, taken right out of the right wing playbook.

His record speaks for itself, they can pretend it doesn't exist but they can't erase it.

You too.

[ucrdem]

97. Hillary has the Clinton economy to point to and there goes the economic argument. nt

[beam me up scottie]

99. I really don't give a shit.

I'm sick of seeing an honest man vilified because some people can't grow up.

[ucrdem]

101. Okay but it isn't just a DU issue. It's getting some ink in the press:

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/27/8671135/bernie-sanders-race

[beam me up scottie]

103. Oh ffs, please stop referring to that idiotic op-ed/blog post as if it's a factual article.

No one is buying it.

Well, no one who's actually read the damn thing.

YMMV

[ucrdem]

109. Has anyone denied the facts it presents?

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

[beam me up scottie]

112. Were facts actually presented?

I dismiss all attempts to swift boat Democratic candidates.

[ucrdem]

114. Yes. I recommend reading it. nt

[beam me up scottie]

116. I did. Twice.

No facts, just an opinion from someone of no importance.

Reminded me of some ops around here lately.

[ucrdem]

117. Here are 3 facts it presents, each with links in the original:

He didn't mention those issues in his campaign launch yesterday, or in his email announcement to his supporters last month, and they're not on the issues page of his website.

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/27/8671135/bernie-sanders-race

Unless you want to deny that those are true, I think we'll simply have to disagree as to how they are interpreted.

[beam me up scottie]

120. That's an assumption, not a fact and this isn't a disagreement.

Look, I'm not going to keep explaining this to you, I'm not stupid enough to fall for these right wing tactics when the Republicans use them, so please stop insulting my intelligence.

It. Didn't. Work.

[ucrdem]

121. Okay they're true. That makes them facts. Thanks. nt

[beam me up scottie]

124. He didn't mention women either, that means it's true he's a misogynist.

You're welcome.

[Ken Burch]

147. You would have to agree, though, that we really can't GET social justice

as long as neoliberal economics hold sway. Everything that happened from the Seventies through the Nineties(when social gains pretty much just stopped) bears this out.

What is so terrible about saying we need both forms of justice?

[BrotherIvan]

10. NO ONE has said there is a division EXCEPT on DU

It's stunning how a few dedicated people refuse to believe it. The only reason why it is being separated is to defend those who are horrible on economic issues. NOT the other way around.

And now we have coined a new DU term: Trickle Down Justice. How much more dishonest can you get?

[yallerdawg]

11. Check link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026749264

[sheshe2]

12. Yup, I posted that to SKP as well.

Once again. Thank you yallerdawg.

[yallerdawg]

16. BrotherIvan and I respectfuly disagree on other things.

I bumped into BI here, and again we disagree, wonder of wonders!

[sheshe2]

22. Not surprising that other thread is not going anywhere.

Some don't want it seen.

Yes, BI and I have bumped into each other a time or two recently.

[BrotherIvan]

35. Yes

Guess you're back to take another whack at it. Nicer pictures this time, kudos.

[sheshe2]

45. Standing up for Social Justice is taking a whack at your candidate????

WTF!

[BrotherIvan]

47. Ah yes, here it is

[Scootaloo]

63. You tried to insinuate Sanders was connected to the chicago PD's "hunting" picture and slavery

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6737025

And here you are framing economic and social justice in terms of "versus."

[BrotherIvan]

24. The article is opinion not backed up by fact

Firstly, Sanders does address issues that effect the black community. In fact, he did last night. Committing to end for profit prisons and diverting the money we spend on the mass incarceration of people of color for education and job training. Scroll down where the actual quote is. That has been an effective an proven strategy in countries around the world.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12809724

So yes, as his campaign develops and he gives more speeches, he is talking about specific issues of concern in social justice. People are freaking out because he didn't cram it all into one speech. As I said in another thread, if he had been refusing to address the issue for six months, there would be a point. But he just announced this week and is starting with addressing economic inequality in a 35 minute speech.

Second, and most important, some people don't seem to understand that though he has a long history of civil rights activism, perhaps he doesn't try to sound like the next coming of MLK because he's NOT. Because white people co-opting the black struggle is OFFENSIVE. And most especially for political gain. He has no standing to act like an expert on people of color and neither does any other white person. But we all forget that Sanders IS part of a minority group.

To quote Bluenorthwest from last night http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6739633

Bernie is a minority member, the three groups most often victim of bias crimes in the US are African Americans, LGBT and Jews.

Sanders is coming up with logical, legislative solutions to problems as that is truly the only possible route for a government official. He is famous for avoiding lying or campaign hyperbole. He is not making the soaring promises that obviously some people are accustomed to. The fact that people are demanding he change "optics"--for instance, busing in more people of color to Vermont, or hiring a few token minorities to say, Look! see! a dark person!--are actually perpetuating the damn cycle of lies that got us here in the first place.

As a post script, in case no one has noticed, we have an African American president who will be in office until January, 2017. How about we make the demand that he put his power behind racial justice, and most especially make bold steps to stop police murder and abuse right damn now before a single more person dies? That would be far more effective than anything a candidate could say. That's real.

[beam me up scottie]

36. Exactly.

I read it twice looking for the 'gotcha' that the op seems to think is there but I'm still not seeing it.

It's a couple of opinions strung together on a blog and reposted here like it proves Sanders isn't for social justice.

[sheshe2]

50. A Bernie supporter posted that.

Maybe you should talk to them.

[beam me up scottie]

52. I'm interested in his words, not your assumptions.

Maybe you should stop trying to pretend you've finally found some dirt on him.

[BrotherIvan]

62. Contrary to your belief, I am not arguing this point because I support Sanders

I am arguing this division of economic and social justice because it is FAKE. It is harmful. It is harmful to say that we don't need to provide economic stability and a strong social safety net to all the people of this country and in particular those in disenfranchised communities. It is FAKE.

[Luminous Animal]

37. This needs to be an OP. Really and truly please BrotherIvan.

Because this needs to stand front and center:

Because white people co-opting the black struggle is OFFENSIVE. And most especially for political gain. He has no standing to act like an expert on people of color and neither does any other white person.[/i But we all forget that Sanders IS part of a minority group.


And this too,

As a post script, in case no one has noticed, we have an African American president who will be in office until January, 2017. How about we make the demand that he put his power behind racial justice, and most especially make bold steps to stop police murder and abuse right damn now before a single more person dies? That would be far more effective than anything a candidate could say. That's real.

[BrotherIvan]

46. Thanks

I would like to hear some substantive arguments from people. So far, it's the same tactic over and over.

And BTW, the only reason why everyone gets to parse Sanders' announcement speech is because he actually gave one. So far, from HRC, we have a video with attractive black, brown and LGBT people so we're supposed to assume that that means she's all about social justice. I would say you can't make this shit up, but I guess you can.

[AgingAmerican]

14. Manufactured outrage

nt

[seabeyond]

17. our issues being literally dismissed is manufactured outrage to you....

[AgingAmerican]

19. The whole 'social justice vs economic justice' meme

is manufactured outrage. They are not mutually exclusive.

Some people do not want to talk about quasi Republican 'centrist Democratic' economic policies, so they do this.

[BrotherIvan]

25. Yup

[sheshe2]

28. Who are you calling a....

Some people do not want to talk about quasi Republican 'centrist Democratic' economic policies, so they do this.

Seriously? Manufactured outrage? How so?

The whole 'social justice vs economic justice' meme
is manufactured outrage.

Read this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026749264

[AgingAmerican]

34. The Third Way® and their defenders

It is manufactured outrage because economic and social justice are not mutually exclusive. There is no 'vs'. It doesn't exist. It is made up by people who do not want to talk about war, domestic spying and quasi-Republican economic policies.

[BrotherIvan]

39. Or who don't give a crap about poor, disenfranchised people of color, women, or LGBT

Obviousness is obvious.

[seabeyond]

40. he believes it will only come as the result of economic equality.

he believes aquiring social justice THRU economic justice.

not what you are saying.

stick the manufactured bullshit somewhere else. it does not belong on a democratic political board.

This isn't an accidental oversight. These simply aren't issues Sanders is passionate about in the way he's passionate about economic injustice. When my colleague Andrew Prokop profiled Sanders last year, he pointed out astutely that Sanders's career has been "laser-focused on checking the power of the wealthy above all else." Sanders believes in racial equality, sure, but he believes it will only come as the result of economic equality. To him, focusing on racial issues first is merely treating the symptom, not the disease.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026749264

[AgingAmerican]

44. They are not mutually exclusive

You do not get one without the other.

There is no 'vs'. They are not in competition.

[AgingAmerican]

60. Name one country on earth

Without economic justice, that has social justice.

Name one country on earth, with social justice, but no economic justice.

There are none.

This is because they are not mutually exclusive, no matter what you say.

[BrotherIvan]

49. That is an OPINION not actual fact

It is far more accurate to say he believes social justice will come as a result of POLICY not platitudes.

[beam me up scottie]

58. Did he actually say that?

[JaneyVee]

42. Wrong, they shouldn't be mutually exclusive, but...

They most certainly are. Republicans found a way to trick middle class whites into believing social justice is only nonsense for minorities and women while driving a wedge between class struggle by promising them their own economic inequalities will be solved by tax cuts for the rich. And their trick has been working.

[AgingAmerican]

55. You cannot have economic justice without social justice

You cannot have social justice without economic justice. The two are not mutually exclusive. You cannot have one without the other. What the Republicans do or say does not change this. There are no 'tricks' that separate them.

What the Republicans have done is take power away from we the people. They have done so by stealing all the money. Strip economic power from the people and give it to the oligarchy, and the oligarchy become powerful and take control. In order to keep a grip on power, they must quash civil rights. Things like the right to vote and civil rights. They buy elections.

This is how it works in the third world. This is what is happening in the USA.

When Democratic politicians buy into right wing economics, it feeds into the hands of the oligarchy, who become filthy rich at the expense of everyone else. Civil rights erode. Elections get bought. Social justice erodes. This is exactly what is happening now.

You cannot push for social justice while pushing right wing economic policies, because those same policies erode social justice. It is a catch 22, because they are not mutually exclusive.

[deutsey]

136. +1

Good lord, I can't even believe we have to spell things out like this.

Just goes to show how far off course we've drifted.

[BrotherIvan]

56. +1

It is a new wedge issue trying to get say to the 99%, "Hey, let's you and him fight."

[Scootaloo]

73. The claim you make is completely unsupported by evidence

And you only started claiming it on the day sanders announced his candidacy. You'e spent the time since attacking and making insinuations against DU'ers - often the same DU'ers who's been on the same side as you on every issue you are now accusing us of "dismissing."

You're fucking right it's manufactured. And you're one of the ones manufacturing it. No one is dismissing social issues. Your claims are absolutely false, and the timing and targeting of them makes them clear campaign smears.

[NaturalHigh]

105. Whose issues are being dismissed? How?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

132. Yup. Money is power in our world.

Getting more money means getting more power to change the problems around us. Economic inequality is power inequality, leaving all of the power in the hands of the few, allowing them to set the rules, write the laws. Having money gives one the time to spend on working for social change, as opposed to spending all of your time simply trying to survive.

[nikto]

23. In the broad view ...

Social Justice without an emphasis on Economic Justice as well, is hollow and incomplete,
just as the reverse would be.

[BrotherIvan]

29. +1

Not because money buys stuff, but because money buys power. It buys education. It buys the power to stand up and be heard rather than working three or four jobs until you drop. It buys healthcare. It buys healthy food which has been blamed for the precipitous decline in mortality for PoC. The generational poverty of people of color is yet unbroken and leads to all kinds of abuse and disenfranchisement. Take Ferguson for example.

The wealth gap between whites, blacks and Latinos is jaw dropping and ANYONE who claims to care about people of color needs to acknowledge it.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

133. + all. nt

[nikto]

144. Absolutely, what you said

[sheshe2]

30. Well, I never said that did I.

I said they stand together.

Reread the Op.

[JaneyVee]

33. And vice-versa.

[beam me up scottie]

38. +2

And Sanders hasn't come out against social justice.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

26. I don't think these divisions need to exist. But +1 for the Bill Moyers.

[William769]

27. Spot on Sheshe.

I won't even begin to tell you how many people tried to throw the LGBT community under the bus back in 2008 over marriage equality telling us it's not our time, we will just have to wait. What a load of shit! No one should ever have to wait for social justice (especially in our own damn party! ). I still fume about that shit when I think about it. And yes many are still here.

I am not just speaking for the LGBT group but all Groups. I just mention LGBT because I am part of that group.

[sheshe2]

41. My emphasis many times are on women,

Because that is who I am. I understand where you are coming from William.

Yet I am an ally to many. I chose to put women last in this Op, not cause I think they are, yet I wanted to put others first. We have strong shoulders and we sure as hell are not the weaker sex. When you attain a goal with our support, I know without a shadow of a doubt, that you will be reaching your hand down to help us up as will PoC. We do this together.

None of us will be thrown under the bus or sent to the back of the bus ever again.

[G_j]

31. What was MLK Jr.'s Poor People's Campaign?

Last edited Sat May 30, 2015, 01:47 AM - Edit history (1)

and if we are going to keep debating about economic and social justice, we might remember that King considered militarism to also be key in the mix of injustices that this country needed/needs to face.

[BrotherIvan]

53. How easily some forget that they have always been linked

[G_j]

70. nice photos!

Poor People's Campaign

The Poor People's Campaign was a 1968 effort to gain economic justice for poor people in the United States. It was organized by Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and carried out under the leadership of Ralph Abernathy in the wake of King's assassination.

The Campaign demanded economic and human rights for poor Americans of diverse backgrounds. After presenting an organized set of demands to Congress and executive agencies, participants set up a 3000-person tent city on the Washington Mall, where they stayed for six weeks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_People%27s_Campaign

----------

Beyond Civil Rights

THE FIGHT AGAINST POVERTY & MILITARISM

After the successful voting rights march in Alabama, King was unable to garner similar support for his effort to confront the problems of northern urban blacks. Early in 1966 he, together with local activist Al Raby, launched a major campaign against poverty and other urban problems and moved his family into an apartment in Chicago’s black ghetto. As King shifted the focus of his activities to the North, however, he discovered that the tactics used in the South were not as effective in Chicago.

--

In December 1967 King announced the formation of the Poor People’s Campaign, designed to prod the federal government to strengthen its antipoverty efforts. King and other SCLC workers began to recruit poor people and antipoverty activists to come to Washington, D.C., to lobby on behalf of improved antipoverty programs. This effort was in its early stages when King became involved in the Memphis sanitation workers’ strike in Tennessee.

- See more at: http://www.thekingcenter.org/beyond-civil-rights#sthash.iZdB2U3Q.dpuf

[BrotherIvan]

72. Dr. King knew that there is no division

That economic policy has been used in the same way that Jim Crow laws were used to keep African Americans disenfranchised. That strong communities are made from jobs, fair housing, and thriving schools. There is a PROCESS to get there and I have YET to see the social justice warriors on DU give any idea of how to do it otherwise.

[G_j]

76. I was always under the impression

that this view was his evolution of understanding. I think he was one of, if not the greatest, American leader. We should listen to him. He doesn't have to be 'dead'. The evolution of understanding that King embarked on should be ours.


imho

[BrotherIvan]

79. I don't know that it was necessarily an evolution

I have read quite a lot about how his ideas developed, including the writings of Gandhi and Tolstoy. The march to the sea in India to make salt was highly symbolic and Dr. King was very taken with the effectiveness of nonviolent confrontarion. The March on Washington was a mix of workers unions and civil rights leaders. Remember, the civil rights movement wasn't just Dr. King, there was quite a lot of incredible people who were a part of it. I am proud to say I have gotten to know Dr. Abernathy's (drop dead gorgeous) daughter in my film work. They knew that economic disenfranchisement was part of the struggle.

Here's more info

The impetus for a march on Washington developed over a long period of time, and earlier efforts to organize such a demonstration included the March on Washington Movement of the 1940s. A. Philip Randolph—the president of the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, president of the Negro American Labor Council,[6] and vice president of the AFL-CIO—was a key instigator in 1941. With Bayard Rustin, Randolph called for 10,000 black workers to march on Washington, in protest of discriminatory hiring by U.S. military contractors and demanding an Executive Order.[14] Faced with a mass march scheduled for July 1, 1941, President Roosevelt issued Executive Order 8802 on June 25.[15] The order established the Committee on Fair Employment Practice and banning discriminatory hiring in the defense industry.[16] Randolph called off the March.[17]

Randolph and Rustin continued to organize around the idea of a mass march on Washington. They envisioned several large marches during the 1940s, but all were called off (despite criticism from Rustin).[18] Their Prayer Pilgrimage for Freedom, held at the Lincoln Memorial on May 17, 1957, featured key leaders including Adam Clayton Powell, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Roy Wilkins. Mahalia Jackson performed.[19]

The 1963 march was an important part of the rapidly expanding Civil Rights Movement, which involved demonstrations and nonviolent direct action across the United States.[20] 1963 also marked the 100th anniversary of the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation by Abraham Lincoln. Members of The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference put aside their differences and came together for the march. Many whites and blacks also came together in the urgency for change in the nation.

Violent confrontations broke out in the South: in Cambridge, Maryland; Pine Bluff, Arkansas; Goldsboro, North Carolina; Somerville, Tennessee; Saint Augustine, Florida; and across Mississippi. Most of these incidents involved white people retaliating against nonviolent demonstrators.[21] Many people wanted to march on Washington, but disagreed over how the march should be conducted. Some called for a complete shutdown of the city through civil disobedience. Others argued that the movement should remain nationwide in scope, rather than focus its energies on the capitol.[22] There was widespread perception that the Kennedy administration had not lived up to its promises in the 1960 election; King described Kennedy's race policy as "tokenism".[23]

The public failure of the Baldwin–Kennedy meeting on May 24, 1963, underscored the divide between the needs of Black America and the understanding of Washington politicians. But it also provoked the Kennedys to action on the civil rights issue.[24] On June 11, President John F. Kennedy gave his famous civil rights address on national television and radio, announcing that he would begin to push for civil rights legislation—the law which eventually became the Civil Rights Act of 1964. That night, Mississippi activist Medgar Evers was murdered in his own driveway, further escalating national tension around the issue of racial equality.[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_on_Washington_for_Jobs_and_Freedom

[JaneyVee]

32. Great post.

What we've been witnessing over the past 40 years is social justice taking a back-burner (since after the 60s) in favor of purely economic justice and it left all the oppressed behind because of it. Luckily there is a new group of activists rising up for social justice again in an attempt to not be left behind in the 21st century. Social justice and economic justice go hand in hand. It is a must.

[Maedhros]

48. I look forward to a world in which we are all equally free

to live under bridges and scavenge for scraps.

[Scootaloo]

54. There is no "versus." The two are not in competition

And the rest of us need to be exceedingly suspicious of people who insist otherwise.

[Cha]

61. "If we focus on the first, then we will get the second".. uh No. President Obama knows this and

Hillary Clinton feels it. Brilliant illustrative OP, she!

From the link you provided above.. Wow.. I thought facts like these were verboten on DU! But, it came from a Bernie supporter.. I would imagine. Which I just K&Red.

"Why Bernie Sanders doesn't talk about race"

"But there's a reason I say "those progressives" instead of just "progressives": because not everyone in the Democratic base shares those particular passions, or those passions alone. For other progressives — many of them black or Latino — economic inequality is important, but so is racial inequality. They're extremely concerned about racial bias in policing, and about ending mass incarceration.They're concerned about the treatment of unauthorized immigrants, and about protecting voting rights (an issue like campaign finance where progressives are worried the integrity of the political system is at stake — and where the outcome doesn't look good for them)."

"And Bernie Sanders doesn't speak to those concerns. He didn't mention those issues in his campaign launch yesterday, or in his email announcement to his supporters last month, and they're not on the issues page of his website."

To be clear, Sanders hasn’t avoided talking about race throughout his career because he’s a bigot. His motivations have been unsentimental and practical (again: Vermont is about as diverse as a Simon & Garfunkel concert). But they’ve been ideological, too. “Sanders believes in racial equality, sure,” writes Lind, “but he believes it will only come as the result of economic equality.” A politics of racial justice that neglects the question of economic power — or treats it as a secondary, separate issue — is, in Sanders’ mind, equivalent to “treating the symptom, not the disease.”

Senator Sanders is very smart, though.. and I would think he'll learn all about Social Justice when he gets out on the campaign trail.

In the mean time there's not a thing wrong with pointing this out. I don't care what those who want to "coddle" him have to hammer about it.

little end snip//

"..She doesn't embody any single progressive passion the way Sanders embodies economic populism — but it looks like she's responding to the progressive concerns Sanders has mostly ignored.."

[sheshe2]

69. Amazing read wasn't it, Cha.

Interesting that it was posted by a Bernie supporter and I am the one that is being called on it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026749264

You said~

"Senator Sanders is very smart, though.. and I would think he'll learn all about Social Justice when he gets out on the campaign trail.

In the mean time there's not a thing wrong with pointing this out. I don't care what those who want to coddle him have to hammer about it."

Yes, he has a lot to learn if he wished to be the President of all the people.

[Cha]

75. Yes, it is amazing.. in that it highlights exactly what a few of our DU AA posters brought up about

Bernie's Kickoff and then were soundly shouted down with accusations of calling Bernie "a Racist.. of course you experienced that too. smh

"Yes, he has a lot to learn if he wished to be the President of all the people." too true.. they learn as they go if they didn't know it already. We know President Obama had a lot to learn on the job and fast in some areas! Good thing he's a quick learner.

"Interesting that it was posted by a Bernie supporter and I am the one that is being called on it." I was thinking Posts #1 and #2 could benefit from that link..

To Social JUSTICE, she!

[sheshe2]

77. I will post it to them....

Plus that other thread is taking off, hmmmm. Not the way the poster expected.

PS William is back!

Love you Cha!

[Cha]

83. Yeah, sometimes all it needs is

one kick to bring a thread back from dormancy.

Thank you for that link again.. I never would have thought a Bernie supporter would post something like that. I had actually seen a couple of days ago and I can't remember where?

P.S. I know, she! William!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1107&pid=7527

[Marr]

137. You're quoting another BOGer and acting like it's a quote from your opposition.

How sleazy.

Not only a strawman, but a Dick Cheney-variety strawman. Plant the story then cite it.

[davidpdx]

71. Both are important and I fully support both

I do think Bernie Sanders supports social justice. He has stood up for civil rights, LGBT rights, etc. I dislike these types of reactionary posts from both sides. Even though you didn't link the original post in the OP, you did eventually when someone asked which makes it meta. I've seen Clinton supporters bashing Sanders kick off for not doing this or not doing that and then turn around and cry about how badly she is being bashed. It's very hypocritical.

As for me personally, I have not fully made up my mind but have said I lean toward Sanders. It is still early and there are other candidates still entering the race that I'd like to learn about (whether I support them or not). Back in 2008 this choice was a lot easier for me and I am dreading this election because I believe it is going to be nothing but a stinky tub of shit.

[beam me up scottie]

74. No other candidate in this race has been as strong of an advocate for racial justice as Bernie has

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026743489

[BrotherIvan]

82. In case no one knows, the woman on the left of Rep. Lewis is Jane Sanders, Bernie's wife

[beam me up scottie]

84. Thanks!

I remember years ago an opponent tried to dig up dirt on Bernie by calling his ex-wife.

It backfired when she freaked out, let the guy have it and went public with the story.

Bernie doesn't run negative campaigns, the op could learn a lot from him.

[BrotherIvan]

85. I don't care about honest criticism

I seriously dislike manipulative, deceptive spin. And I really fucking hate co-opting peoples' struggle to win points on a message board.

[beam me up scottie]

88. Have you seen this?:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6746564

[Violet_Crumble]

113. Prism's posts were awesome in that thread...

I was reading it all from afar as there's some threads I won't post in and that was one of them

[beam me up scottie]

115. They deserve their own op.

I was totally blown away and had to let them know how I felt.

[Violet_Crumble]

119. I agree on that....

A little bit of tweaking to make sure the OP wasn't addressed to an individual DUer and that'd be an OP that'd get an enthusiastic rec from me!

[beam me up scottie]

123. Yeah, it takes a lot to move me these days but that did the trick.

I'm a jaded cynic and that spoke to me.

I'm sure we're not alone, it would make the Greatest in no time.

[Bonobo]

151. My god, they were epic. nt

[Bonobo]

91. "Will you fear less when your child leaves the house in the morning? "

Why I'm glad you asked. The simple answer is yes. Economic justice DOES in fact buy you LESS fear that your black or brown child will be beaten by the police, for example.

Do you doubt it?

[sheshe2]

94. Did any of you Sanders supporters comment on the OP?

No.

Did you address any of the issues? No.

One of the best parts of the Op was about the aging project. Damn, when I posted both those OP's I cried. We are a nation that is aging. Scarey, I know.

Yet to the LGBT community, it is terrifying. They are going back into the closet to get end of life care. They have to hide who they love and what they believe to be treated with some dignity as they leave this world. My heart breaks for them.

What would you do if you were old, disabled or ill - and the person feeding you put down the spoon and said that you are going to hell unless you change your sexual preference?

I honestly thought Democrats believed in helping people, raising up the less fortunate. So few of you even bothered commenting on the Op.

They are going back into the closet to survive and DU DOES NOT GIVE A SHIT!

Well, I would go on about my post on Women as well, yet why bother. Who gives a shit anyway. No On Absolutely No One.

DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND MY ASS!

[Violet_Crumble]

118. Well, I'm not a Sanders supporter, but I saw plenty of people comment on the OP...

It was about economic vs social justice, no? It's just that's how you kicked off yr OP, so I guess that's what everyone else saw yr OP as being about.

So, here's a few comments on the OP from me.

1. This 'vs' thing is stupid. They both go hand in hand, imo. Living in a country where we're better off than the US in terms of both social and economic issues in many cases, I find it interesting that in the US there's this attempt to create a divide between the two. Shouldn't people find the issues of importance to them a priority solely because they're important issues that speak to them, and not because they're 'social justice' or 'economic justice'? I'm a single mum. When I was struggling the governments actions when it came to social security was fucking important to me coz I wouldn't have survived without government benefits. When I finally went back to work my wage and conditions were fucking important to me because I couldn't have survived without them. I didn't give a shit whether those things were a social or economic issue. All I knew was that they were really important stuff.

2. There's two candidates so far. Both are very strong on social issues. Shouldn't the focus be on the Republicans, rather than the attempts I've seen to portray Bernie Sanders as having the potential to take the US into the dark ages on social issues?

3. I liked yr OP better before you corrected the typo in the word 'tickle down'.

[Ken Burch]

148. Thank you so much, Violet. Eloquent as always.

I may pm you on this later.

[Violet_Crumble]

149. Thanks, Ken. PM away...

[Ken Burch]

150. Just sent one. n/t.

[ucrdem]

95. k! n! r!

[sheshe2]

106. Thanks~

I am suppose to be sleeping now!

[ucrdem]

107. Awesome post.

As usual! Sleep well sheshe

[calimary]

104. Another wonderful and thought-provoking post, sheshe2!

You always make me think - and give me stuff to think about.

[sheshe2]

111. Hey you.

I work in a few hours and gotta go.

Thank you, wish others actually read what I wrote. Nope, don't write well yet I get a point or two out there.

So many came to crap on me yet never read my words. Ha. They saw who posted and came to dump on me.

I come to expect that.

Thanks calimary. I love you~

Nite.

[calimary]

138. ((((<3))))

Love you too, she!

[NaturalHigh]

108. "What will your economic justice buy you?"

Let's see - food, clothing, shelter, transportation, health care. What all did I miss?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

134. Political power.

When money talks, politicians listen. They ignore the poor.

[Number23]

122. K&R And you get an extra rec for taking all of this shit for your posts and STILL POSTING THEM.

You GO, girl.

[sheshe2]

141. I thank you Number23.

[Katashi_itto]

129. See post #55

[cali]

130. long,empty op that sets up one false construct after another

It's not either or. And anyone who doesn't grasp that basic, basic fact, is wholly incapable of any critical thinking.

[jwirr]

139. I hear what you are saying. I for one think that we need both. My family live on an Indian

Reservation. We run our own casinos and they have brought us a lot closer to economic justice. With that came social justice. Our situation is of course different. We did not have any jobs and were not being hired by the white establishment who had all the businesses - now we are the ones doing the hiring. And we hire everyone. We have used the economic justice to work on social justice.

That is where I am coming from when I say we need both. But we really are different - we have our own Native American police forces, our own social services and healthcare and our own governing body. We also run our own schools but most of our children still go to the public schools and because of the jobs we now have most of them graduate.

And the change in the last years have all started from being able to open up a real business that gave us a part in the community. That forced people around us to change their bigoted attitudes from the past and recognize us as real people. And I do need to say that on some of the more rural isolated reservations this has not happened.

[myrna minx]

142. Then why the Nixonian dog whistle *tactic* with your previous post?

Why the cynical dog whistle posts about a person with a lifetime of support for African Americans, LBGTs, Native Americans etc with inflammatory images and memes that convey the contrary, then, innocently proclaim-"Who me?" That never happened!! Wide Eyed Blink. Blink.

Also See: Swiftboating of John Kerry

Using tried and true dog whistle *tactics* to tear down a lifelong social justice ally to plant a *hostile to minorities* meme is beneath us all.

[bigtree]

143. the other controversial article you posted was off-base, inaccurate, poorly stated, & mostly unfair

...this one is thought-provoking, interesting, and extremely relevant.

Kudos to you, sheshe2, for hanging in there and clarifying in such an comprehensive way where you actually stand.

[Ken Burch]

146. No candidate is calling for "Economic Justice without Social Justice".

The most anyone has said is that you really can't get Social Justice without also having a movement for Economic Justice. Opponents of Economic Justice seldom support Social Justice(as the Nineties proved).

Victory to BOTH forms of justice...because both matter.

[MisterP]

152. 101%! a candidate who advocates that secular regimes be overthrown by ultra-misogynistic and

-homophobic Salafist supremacists, that approves and protects of a regime that's seen a hundred transvestites and transsexuals murdered and whose police use rape as an instrument of policy, whose bigwigs have killed over 200 darkish peasants, where women's leaders are threatened daily, has absolutely no place in the party

fracking and a permanent state of war, the export rather than the opening of economic opportunity, exclusive and top-down politics, these things all strike down women and POC in disproportionate numbers, and anyone coyly advocating them should just GTFO