Catholic school in Arizona forfeits championship baseball game because the other team has a girl!

[Better Believe It]

School forfeits title game — other team has girl
by Tyler Lockman
May 10, 2012

Having never fielded a baseball team before this season, Mesa Preparatory Academy was thrilled with an undefeated season that had them in position to play for the Arizona Charter Athletic Association's 1A state championship at Phoenix College Thursday night.

They had gone undefeated in the regular season and done so with just 11 players. The feel-good story turned a bit sour this week, though, when their championship opponent forfeited the title game because Mesa Prep's starting second baseman is a 15-year-old female, Paige Sultzbach.

Our Lady of Sorrows Academy, a fundamentalist Catholic school in Phoenix, declined to play Mesa Prep because of a strict parish policy prohibiting participation in co-ed sports. The school is affiliated with the U.S. branch of the Society of Saint Pius X, a group of conservative priests who broke away from the Catholic Church in the 1980s over church reforms.

In a statement to FOX News, an Our Lady of Sorrows official said the school had no choice but to forfeit: "Teaching our boys to treat ladies with deference, we choose not to place them in an athletic competition where proper boundaries can only be respected with difficulty,” the statement said. "Our school aims to instill in our boys a profound respect for women and girls."


Paige Sultzbach joined the Mesa Prep baseball team because the school did not have a softball program.

Read the full article at:

http://www.foxsportsarizona.com/05/10/12/School-forfeits-title-rather-than-play-a/msn_landing.html?blockID=726830&feedID=3702

Refusing to play a baseball team because it has a girl player is showing total disrespect "for women and girls". BBI

[monmouth]

1. This is Spanky's fault..n/t

[sharp_stick]

2. They just didn't want

to get beat by a girl. Bunch of wimpy fundies.

Fundamentalism of any stripe makes me sick to my stomach and in this case you've got to know they're nuts. When Opus Dei looks at your group and says... shit man that's some fucked up theology... you know it's gone a little far.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

3. simply not true

they don't allow co-ed sports in their school...

at least be honest about the shit you post...

sP

[sharp_stick]

10. Damned apologists.

Poor breakaway fundie assholes are afraid to play with girls.

I'm one hell of a lot more honest than these pricks ever will be. They're too nuts to even follow the gawd given orders of the Pope, if that alone doesn't send them to hell nothing will.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

25. once again you totally mischaracterize their stance

typical...

sP

[sharp_stick]

32. Lighten up Charlie

Jesus H. Christ, or Iesus H. Salvator in keeping with the wacko fundie element going on here. It was a joke at the expense of a truly weird bunch of wanna be Romans.

I know why they didn't play the game. The fact that they would have been humiliated by being beaten by a girl is just an entertaining sideshow.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

34. sorry if I missed the humour...

i get a bit touchy when people bend shit out of proportion...and if it was meant as a jest, i missed it. my daughter plays on a baseball team... we had a girl on our team back in the mid eighties. we thought nothing of it...

sP

[CreekDog]

124. Apologist for anti-semite hate groups?

maybe we just don't get their stance?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

155. ah...the name calling begins... n/t

[stonecutter357]

31. Its getting harder for the haters.

[ag_dude]

41. How much different do you consider yourself from them?

I don't agree with their stance one bit but they're choosing not to play.

You're calling kids "fundie", "assholes", "pricks", "nuts", and mocking their religion.

Who's the real bigot here?

[obamanut2012]

80. Roman Catholics don't even recognize this breakaway as Roman Catholic

Their beliefs are rather... interesting.

(See Mel Gibson)

[ag_dude]

106. Irrelevant to my point.

I don't agree with them at all but they're not forcing the other team to do anything. They're making a choice as to what they wish to do.

Since when does that warrant calling children “fundies", "assholes", "pricks", and "nuts", as well mocking their religion.

I’m just pointing out the bigotry.

[riderinthestorm]

108. The kids didn't decide this. The adults at the school did and the adult coaches enforced it

That league always allowed co-ed teams. This school decided to push the other teams to abide by their discrimination and bigotry towards girls playing.

I have no problem calling out religious dogma and the enforcers of such despicable dogma that's antithetical to 21st century ideals of equality for girls and boys in sports.

[ag_dude]

135. Do you not see the difference between calling it out...

...and the over the top name calling?

It's hatred and religious bigotry and is rampant on this site. I have no idea why otherwise rational people feel the need to demonize those they don't agree with.

[Rittermeister]

146. We don't accept the ramblings of schizophrenics

Why should we respect religion?

[ag_dude]

149. Because you're better than right wing and talk radio scum?

If you are okay with living in the same gutter those you claim deserve the be mocked live in, so be it. I'll continue to call it out for what it is, bigotry.

[Rittermeister]

178. What I'm okay with is dispelling institutionalized superstition and prejudice

AKA religion. If anyone behaved in the same manner without the pretext of faith, they would be called members of a hate group.

[JonLP24]

186. Interesting you say that

I once had a psychosis episode that I don't really want to get into but I saw, heard, & felt unreal crazy stuff that seemed so real.

Since then I've wondered if back then, the people who made the bible had some psychotic episodes of their own to come up with some of their stories. I'll back off on the point as I don't know what is real when it comes to religion except that personally I haven't seen any evidence a god exists.

[riderinthestorm]

152. Its a discussion board. If you don't like your ideas/beliefs/irrationalities challenged

then you won't last here. Simply lashing out at people and labeling them bigots because they call out ridiculous religious beliefs, and/or trying to smear DUers who get ugly about the adults who try to force children to act in discriminatory ways isn't going to win you many allies here.

Frankly, I have no problem demonizing ANY religion or religious person that tries to perpetuate hideous notions of female inequality. If that's "hatred and religious bigotry" in YOUR mind then so be it. Like I said, then you won't last long here.

[ag_dude]

157. It is bigotry.

You're just cool with it since you agree with it.

I'm not lashing out at people for calling out ridiculous religious beliefs. If I were I'd have done so a couple dozen times in this thread.

No, I'm pointing out when disagreement crosses the line from disagreement to hate filled religious bigotry.

There's a difference. Whether you're still capable of seeing through those lines that have been so terribly blurred by what is now considered acceptable discourse is another question.

[ag_dude]

158. “wimpy fundies”, “fundie assholes”, “pricks”, “nuts”, “gawd”

That's not challenging ideas, that hatred.

BTW, what idea do you think I'm having challenged? I don't agree with what that team is doing one bit. That doesn't give me an excuse to suddenly become some sort of Michael Savage clone.

[ag_dude]

159. While we're on the subject of defining bigotry

How are the words that have been said NOT bigotry?

[sharp_stick]

104. These guys are a cult

even by the standards of the Roman Catholic Church and that is a pretty low bar dude. I have no problem mocking them any more than any other cult.

[ag_dude]

107. So be it, bigots typically don't.

[riderinthestorm]

110. Religion, especially blatantly discriminatory religious belief gets no special respect on DU

Deal with it.

Welcome to DU for as long as you last....

[ag_dude]

136. Who said I respect it?

Seriously, point it out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002669867

Will I not last on DU because I'm calling out bigotry? If so, this place has gone done VERY far down hill.

[riderinthestorm]

153. You persist in calling DUers out for slamming the coach's reprehensible decision

to use religious dogma to try to keep that girl down.

"I have no idea why otherwise rational people feel the need to demonize those they don't agree with." This statement and the others from you are directly tied to trying to tamp down condemnation of that school's (and by extension the team's coach's) disgustingly discriminatory practices, especially when they use children to enforce it.

Its not bigotry to point out destructive, harmful religious dogma no matter how much you want to sling that term at DUers.

I'd stipulate that even religious DUers are cringing at the school's actions here and even on this thread there are religious DUers who have called them some choice words for this.

Its terribly hurtful for children to be indoctrinated into a cultish mindset that discriminates against girls but beyond that, their actions were just bad sportsmanship. Plenty of Christians out there I'm sure who resort to "vulgarities" when it comes to the playing field.

[ag_dude]

156. No, yet again, you fail to see what I'm calling out.

I'm calling out the words that go beyond disagreement into bigotry and hatred.

Words being used in reference to a team of children.

[riderinthestorm]

160. Words being used to reference the school and coach's who are using bogus religious

dogma to enforce discrimination against girls.

I understand exactly what you are doing - you want DUers to show "respect" and not use "vulgarities" when referencing such despicable practices. You think that strong condemnation means "bigotry and hatred".

Well, welcome to DU where hatred for discrimination, especially religious discrimination runs deep and has a long history with colorful, hyperbolic and rank vulgarity. I'm done here as I've got to head back out for chores. You clearly want to persist in labeling DUers as bigots. Others will have their way with you over this, I assure you.

[ag_dude]

162. No, you are generalizing yet again.

I'm not labeling DUers as bigots, just the posters that display and defend the bigotry, such as yourself.

Yes, those views toward religion are relatively common here but you are sorely mistaken if you think it's every DUer.

[sharp_stick]

116. nice try jackass

if you want to discuss something serious it could probably be done but I don't think you're up to it and it would require another thread.

[ag_dude]

137. Discuss what?

I agree that they are blatantly wrong. I don't hink that the bigotry and childish name calling is warranted.

Which part do we disagree on?

The idea people we don't agree with or like must be demonized and called vulgarities? Disagreeing with that isn't welcome on DU?

[me b zola]

196. "Who's the real bigot here?"

The assholes who are proud to proclaim that they are teaching boys to discriminate against females, and teaching the girls to accept this bigotry.

[Iggo]

88. Disrespect is deference now?

Um, no.

[Mariana]

96. They were happy enough to play in a league

that allowed girls, until one actually showed up to play. If they're so damned strict about not allowing co-ed sports, it seems they should have declined to play under those rules from the start. Instead, they unfairly inflicted their bullshit on the other team, and they've done it THREE times now. This is not honorable behavior. The people who run this school and its baseball program suck.

[CreekDog]

126. Same group did this: (wouldn't allow a female ref to officiate a game in Kansas)

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4305675#.T63aeZ9Yuq8

Female Ref Banned From Boys' Game

By CHRIS CUOMO (@ChrisCuomo) , RAQUEL HECKER and OLIVIA STERNS
Feb. 18, 2008
Just minutes before she was scheduled to referee a boy's varsity basketball game at St. Mary's Academy, Michelle Campbell was told she would not be allowed to work the game because she is a woman.

...

"The policy of the school was that they indeed do not permit female officials to officiate the boys athletic contests at their school," said Gary Musselman, executive director of the Kansas State High School Athletics Association.

...

"The response was about women having authority over men," Putthoff said. He then asked whether there were any female teachers who taught boys and what the difference was. "He said he 'didn't really know.'"

Campbell says that if the school changes its rules she would be happy to officiate at St. Mary's.

The Kansas association was not aware of St. Mary's policy against female referees. Campbell was a last-minute replacement for a male referee and may have come as a surprise to the hosts of the game.

[whistler162]

180. Okay....

so you make yourself sick! Interesting and odd.

[sharp_stick]

181. quoi?

Your post makes so little sense I'm tempted to ask you to try again when you sober up.

[Archae]

4. Bunch of wack job "catholics."

"The school is affiliated with the U.S. branch of the Society of Saint Pius X, a group of conservative priests who broke away from the Catholic Church in the 1980s over church reforms."

Pope Rat the 1rst wants them back.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/1/24/15300/0665

[pnwmom]

5. It's misleading to call this a Catholic school. It's part of a small, break-away sect. n/t

[meow2u3]

8. It's not a Catholic school. It's a Lefebvrite school

It's afflilated with the schismatic sect called SSPX. It's fundamentalist, all right, but not strictly Catholic.

[Better Believe It]

12. It's a catholic christian break-away religious sect. It just isn't recognized by the pope.

They can call themselves catholic if they wish, just not Roman catholics with allegiance to the Vatican.

[Ikonoklast]

15. And people that post here can call themelves supporters of all things Democratic, too.

Doesn't actually make it so.


I can call myself a Hasidic Jew, but it doesn't mean that I am one.

[pnwmom]

16. Yes, they can call themselves what they wish. But the subject line was misleading,

because most people would think it referred to the Roman Catholic Church, since that is the largest denomination by far.

[Better Believe It]

18. They are catholics even if you disagree with their religion and choose to call them something else.

There are millions of catholics who don't follow the pope.

I didn't use the term "Roman Catholic Church" in order to not mislead people.

But I'm not taking sides in conflicts between religious sects that call themselves catholics, christians or whatever.

[pnwmom]

19. So do you call the FLDS "Mormons" or LDS even though they are a break-away sect?

Why didn't you just say "Fundamentalist Catholic" in the title, in order not to mislead people? Or just say "School"?

[Better Believe It]

26. Yes I do. The post makes clear the school is "fundamentalist" that broke away from the Roman church

The content of the post makes it clear the school is organized by a catholic sect not affiliated with the Roman catholic sect.

My post points out that:

"Our Lady of Sorrows Academy, a fundamentalist Catholic school in Phoenix, declined to play Mesa Prep because of a strict parish policy prohibiting participation in co-ed sports. The school is affiliated with the U.S. branch of the Society of Saint Pius X, a group of conservative priests who broke away from the Catholic Church in the 1980s over church reforms."

Didn't you read this part of the post?

I don't want to debate "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" or differences between religious sects be they mormons, catholics or whatever.

[pnwmom]

48. A lot of people will only read the subject line, as you know,

and will therefore be misled.

[Better Believe It]

76. It's a catholic christian school. You might not like or agree with this brand of catholic

sect but that's irrelevant.

Posters don't normally identify in a caption precisely which christian religious sect is being written about in an article. There are literally hundreds in the United States alone!

I don't think catholics who follow the pope should be given special treatment or are somehow "better" than millions of catholics who don't follow Rome.

I have nothing more to say on this sectarian matter.

[pnwmom]

91. Why didn't you just call it a Christian school, then? Or just a school?

It doesn't have any more in common with the Roman Catholic Church than it does with hundreds of evangelical Christian churches.

[Better Believe It]

128. Because it's a catholic school. They aren't protestants, baptists or mormons.

[pnwmom]

129. They're Christians. But they don't even refer to themselves as Catholics.

So I wonder why you insist on doing so.

"The school is affiliated with the U.S. branch of the Society of Saint Pius X" -- in other words, it's not Catholic.

[CreekDog]

127. identifying the precise group allows them to be identified as a hate group

which the larger group is not identified as.

[PassingFair]

72. The Catholics are too busy "investigating" the Girl Scouts to mess with this. nt

[LanternWaste]

40. They may also call themselves Greek Orthodox Judaism if they wish...

They may also call themselves Greek Orthodox Judaism if they wish... but it doesn't make it so.

[riderinthestorm]

75. Ah yes, the No True Scotsman theory of religious identification.

I tend to take a person at their word when they self-identify their religion.

[Better Believe It]

78. Yes they may if that's what they are, but, they are not claiming that.

So what's your point?

They are catholics.

You try to convince them that they are not catholics.

Let me know how that goes.

One final point.

I grew up as a member of the Roman Catholic sect.

We were taught that the only "true" catholics were those that supported the pope and that in fact we were the only "true" christians that had a special passport to heaven!

All others were fakes and frauds not sanctioned by god.

What arrogance!

[Zorra]

6. Every one of their future opponents should add a girl to their roster

if they don't already have some on their team.

Send a message, get a win.

I was sent to a Catholic School when I was 4 yrs old.

I became a "heretic" at 5 yrs. old.
I love this video and song. And Pink

[SDjack]

14. Good suggestion. The team only needs one girl who can be put into the line-up for the game against

those yahoos.

[pnwmom]

20. This isn't a Catholic school. It's a break-away sect. n/t

[TrogL]

7. Looks to me like you'd either respect her or she'd beat you to death with that baseball bat

[Johonny]

9. so in order to beat this team all you need is a uniform made of mixed fabric?

[Baitball Blogger]

11. I guess they were upset because the lack of a bulge between the legs confused them?

[Lochloosa]

13. She had sat out two other games against this team out of respect for their beliefs.

Paige Sultzbach, 15, who plays second base at Mesa Prep, sat out of two previous games against the Catholic school out of respect for their beliefs but said she earned her right to play in the championship. (And I agree with her)

"I don't believe that anyone wants to win by forfeit or lose by forfeit. It was kind of a disappointment that they wouldn't play because of that for that reason but it feels good that you win, but under those circumstances, it doesn't feel right," she said.

[eissa]

23. That is ridiculous

Replace this christian school with a muslim one that didn't want to play with girls and imagine the outcry. I'm glad she was allowed to play in the championship at least. She should have never been benched to begin with. If I was team competing with that fundie school I'd make sure to have at least one girl on my team. Let those assholes just forfeit every game.

[Horse with no Name]

69. Now I disagree with that

She earned her right to play all season. However, I am slightly disturbed that her coach allowed her to sit out the other games.
But there again, it was a choice she decided to abide by...with probably a lot of pressure to do so.

The other team? They don't want to play with girls? They can take their balls and go home. Literally.

[Mariana]

99. Now she's learned what usually happens when someone

decides to sacrifice their own rights and desires out of respect for others' religious beliefs. The chances that they will return the favor is slim to none, and often, they'll turn around and demand that you give up even more.

[Scout]

140. give 'em an inch, they'll take two miles n/t

[Better Believe It]

17. TV News Report Video

[Zorra]

22. Bigots never deserve to have their bigotry respected, or admired.

Paige should never have sat out those 2 games, and no apologies or excuses are acceptable in defense of those misogynist religious bigots.

Zero tolerance for bigoted action and all institutionalized bigotry.

No Quarter.

[pinboy3niner]

21. Girls cry. And there's no crying in baseball!1!!

[libinnyandia]

24. There was a girl wrestler this year in Iowa . The thought of that would have driven them crazy.

[MineralMan]

27. Oh, for pete's sake!

Let the girl play. I do not believe Jesus had anything to say about girls playing baseball. Buncha morons!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

28. they didn't say the girl couldn't play

why are people completely mischaracterizing this? They have a code that says they do not participate in co-ed sports. all they did was keep to their policy. it isn't about what Jesus said about 'baseball'...they believe that boys and girls should not compete together in sports.

disagree with their policy, but they did not say girls could not play. they did not say girls cannot play on other teams. they DID say they would not participate in co-ed sports THEMSELVES. they didn't put this on anyone but themselves...though perhaps they should have known going into the tournament that they might have had to face this team and therefor should have bowed out.

sP

[Zorra]

29. Just like refusing to play against a team with Jackie Robinson on it, because he was black. nt

[ProdigalJunkMail]

30. exactly the same...

bullshit... they don't believe she's inferior in any way...

sP

[dbackjon]

33. It is the same

Their choice of religion says that women are inferior. No way to spin that.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

35. that is NOT why they are not playing the game

but you know that already...

sP

[CreekDog]

38. Not inferior just only allowed roles of a subordinate

so what you're saying is that they don't believe women are inferior, they are just relegating them to roles that are inferior because they think they are supposed to do that.

geez, that's worse, isn't it?

religious bullshit needs to be subjected to the same scrutiny that all other bullshit gets.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

42. this is not about the woman's position in the family or the church

or society in general... it is NOT why they chose not to play...

but you knew that and you are trying to conflate the two issues...

again, typical

sP

[DLevine]

44. Actually, it is exactly about that.

It's all about certain religions wanting to keep women and girls in their place. It's really just that simple.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

58. nope...

that is what you are making it to be...

sP

[iverglas]

54. yeah, ha ha

They believe she's superior and shouldn't be exposed to harm at the hands of boys.

Suddenly, baseball is a contact sport ...

And exclusion is really and truly what generally happens to people somebody decides are superior.



Exclusion based on personal characteristics is the same no matter what the characteristic, and no matter what the bullshit "reason" offered for the exclusion is. Dividing people into classes based on colour, sex, or any other trait, and treating the classes differently, is the essence of discrimination: unjustified differential treatment.

This girl herself is the proof that the personal characteristic is irrelevant. She plays baseball and she does it well.


I'm surprised someone hasn't brought it up so I'll be pre-emptive. Equal treatment doesn't require same treatment. Allowing girls on baseball teams with boys does not mean that girls' teams should be allowed to bring in boy ringers, or that all kids' sports teams should be mixed (which would tend to result in girls being excluded because at most ages they are smaller and have less muscle mass than boys). Kids should be given opportunities appropriate to their abilities, period.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

55. simple failure to understand

or desire to not appear to understand.

it isn't about superiority at all...

but you too knew that...

sP

[iverglas]

68. gosh, you're enigmatic

I don't fail to understand a fucking thing, just fyi.

edit: perhaps you fail to understand the word "deference":

Teaching our boys to treat ladies with deference ...

[obamanut2012]

81. It is exactly the same, and the "women are ladies" tactic is BS

It was used for hundreds of years to keep women chattel.

[CreekDog]

165. What the heck why are you defending this group?

We aren't trying to ban that religion but we are criticizing what they believe/do.

Is criticizing a group off limits because it's their religion?

Must we respect even intolerant beliefs?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

166. ahh...see, I am not defending them, per se

i am defending their right to segregate as they please. but you don't get that. you only see it as 'this group' and their behavior.

and you still don't see the hypocrisy.

"We aren't trying to ban that religion but we are criticizing what they believe/do." But in effect you are trying to ban a tenet of their faith...because YOU don't like it.

"Must we respect even intolerant beliefs?" Yeah, you really do if you claim to support belief and faith...but it's ok for you. You DON'T really support it unless it matches with your world view.

sP

[CreekDog]

167. So if their faith includes anti-semitism, you think we are hypocrites if we don't respect it?

whatever.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

168. if you claim to support belief and faith

you don't do ANYTHING about it. they're not trying to impose their beliefs on others. they simply want them for themselves. when it came down to living their beliefs or compromising them they chose to live them by forfeiting the opportunity to play for a championship. they denied THEMSELVES...they did in no way say this girl could not play on a co-ed team.

but hey...you keep telling yourself you support belief. everyone here knows it is only true if it doesn't conflict with your idea of how the world should work.

thanks for the fun...it is obvious you cannot see what you yourself are saying...

sP

[CreekDog]

169. Anti-semitism and anti-women is harming others

this is as bankrupt as when you defended the Crusades, Bear Bryant and criticized Islam as being alone in encouraging martyrdom.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

192. Bear Bryant? really? wow

and name one other religion that tells people to kill themselves and others to get to heaven with 72 virgins...sorry, I don't remember the bit about the crusades...you'll have to remind me.

sP

[CreekDog]

193. Well by your own bogus standard you are intolerant of belief

With the 72 virgins thing. Luckily it is not my standard, my standard is that i can call bs bs no matter the religion and still respect non harmful beliefs. Your standard is to make a straw man of Islam while defending catholic schisms that are anti semitic and anti women. And i happen to love the greater teachings of the catholic faith which emphasize

Coscience
Charity
Community
Empowerment of the poor
Science
And the like

And as for your comment about not knowing about the Crusades, then why did uou dress down DUers for criticizing them?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

194. i know about the crusades

don't remember the comment...

yep, you're still calling ME intolerant when it is still you who only support beliefs that are OK with you. What straw man have I put up? I don't recall mentioning islam in this thread...

sP

[Hippo_Tron]

171. One does not need to respect intolerant beliefs to support the right to belief and faith

LEGALLY I support their right to do whatever they want, just as I support the LEGAL right of the Westboro Baptist loons to protest soldiers' funerals. But on both counts I'm perfectly free to exercise my first amendment rights to call them bigots.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

173. then they would be right to call you a bigot as well

you see, at their core...almost all religions are 'intolerant'. if they weren't...there would be no separation of religions...it would be one big thing.

you don't need to respect anything, but let's be straight. there are plenty of people here who claim that religion is fine...as long as it is acceptable to them...otherwise they are, well, any number of choice vile terms. so, let's not claim tolerance when in fact we are not.

sP

[Hippo_Tron]

174. One can have separation of religion without discriminating on the basis of sex, race...

Or sexual orientation. If, in a religious setting, people want to discriminate based on those who share their faith or their belief, that's fine. In a secular setting, it's a different story. But religion (nor anything else) should ever be an excuse to discriminate based on race, gender, or sexual orientation, things that a person cannot change.

[KamaAina]

170. In Kansas, with the same sect, the issue was "women having authority over men"

but they don't think women are inferior. Okay, fine.

[MineralMan]

36. So, did the girl get to play?

She did not. My point stands.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

39. she did play...all year

she chose to sit out when playing on the other teams field out of respect for their rules. she played every other game ... she played in the tournament... they made zero effort to keep her from playing. the CHOSE not to play... they didn't say she was not welcome to play. the tournament director/manager could have easily allowed the team that was in the next spot in the bracket play for the championship. you wanna blame? blame the tourney structure and management.

sP

[MineralMan]

45. To the devil with that argument.

That is all.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

59. because you have nothing else... n/t

[MineralMan]

100. Nor do I need anything else to have an opinion.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

101. ah, so to hell with opinions you don't like

got it.

sP

[CreekDog]

37. then they can lose for not being able to dictate another team's discrimination

real victory for Jesus in that one, isn't it?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

43. they did lose

they chose to

perhaps it is a victory to them for sticking to their beliefs... but it's obvious your position on belief.

sP

[CreekDog]

47. belief is no justification for BS

i went to church up until last year and that was when i decided to stop defending BS.

BS is BS is BS. If it doesn't fly because it's BS in the real world, it's not any better because it's some religious thing.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

56. they hold it for and to themselves

and do not apply it to others.

but it apparent belief and practice of religion are not ok with you in any size shape or form.

so be it.

sP

[CreekDog]

61. Wrong. I completely support belief and faith --but not belief and faith in the indefensible

if you want to believe in God and many wonderful things, I don't for a moment want to weaken your faith in that.

but if you want to believe that God wants gay people treated beneath others, that's indefensible and your faith as a defense is even weaken than any lame reasoning one could come up with to defend it without appeals to the divine.

i didn't leave church because i stopped believing by the way. my story is a bit more complicated than that.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

95. that's the problem with belief and faith

when it comes down to it, NONE of it is really defensible. you either accept it as 'ok' because it doesn't offend or you denigrate it as 'indefensible' when it does offend.

sP

[CreekDog]

97. What makes it indefensible is if it causes harm or discrimination

not necessarily that it offends. lots of things offend that aren't harmful.

but a rule, born from religious practice that would sideline a student from playing simply because she is a girl, who never signed onto the rules of some other school --that is harmful.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

98. almost all religions are exclusive about SOMETHING, though

i mean, you aren't supposed to take communion if you're not a believer in Christ and some churches go so far as to say you cannot take communion if you are not a member of their church. this just happens to be an exclusivity that hit you in an opinion of what is right and wrong.

are you saying that any belief or practice is not ok if it 'sidelines' someone for some reason? for ANY sort of discrimination?

sP

[CreekDog]

105. If you're going to be an apologist for everything a religion does, no matter how discriminatory...

then obviously you are showing where your morals are.

what's the point of arguing with you? you just think i'm being cranky, particular and intolerant for not being as open minded about stuff that would be bullshit if a company, government or person did it --but because it's a church, you defend or become an apologist for it.

whatever.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

118. sorry I shot a hole in your argument

but you see, churches (nay, religions) don't act like a company or a government...their laws and practices come from faith and belief... that pesky little thing you claimed to support... unless you don't LIKE that faith, belief or practice.

sorry about that.

sP

[ProdigalJunkMail]

143. i love how YOU call ME intolerant

when it is YOU who has the problem with their expression of belief. classic...just classic. you are so much fun...

sP

[CreekDog]

71. many Catholics don't hold to all the dogma

and for those who don't because their conscience will not allow them, their religion tells them to obey their conscience.

[obamanut2012]

82. They did apply it to others

Which is why Paige -- wrongly, imo -- sat out two games against them this year They can live like they are in 2012, or ask Mel Gibson to start a Little League team for their unrecognized "Catholic" sect.

[Zorra]

70. Yep. "Hey, kids anyone want some of this kool-aid?" "Uh, no thanks, Reverend Jones, you drink it".

Sultzbach, 15, said she felt Our Lady of Sorrows was putting her down by asking that she not play in those first two games.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/preps/articles/2012/05/09/20120509school-balks-over-having-face-girl-state-title-game.html#ixzz1ub0eLQT7

[obamanut2012]

83. They did, and so did her coach for benching her

Paige seems like a terrific kid.

[Electric Monk]

46. I posted this story in Religion yesterday... didn't get nearly this much attention

here http://www.democraticunderground.com/121826690

[Egalitarian Thug]

103. Surprised? n/t

[Electric Monk]

131. Not particularly. BBI has a real knack for drawing a crowd. nt

[Electric Monk]

176. I suppose I should say "had" not "has", as BBI is no longer with us.

PPR http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=217293

[Electric Monk]

177. Now it's been posted yet again in a new thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002680159

[ejbr]

49. Forfeit?

Nah....I think they proved they are a bunch of LOSAHS!!!

[riderinthestorm]

50. Believe it or not there are DUers who would agree with this

That story about the female wrestler in Iowa whose opponent forfeited his match because his "personal code" didn't allow him to compete against girls exposed a fair few DUers who agreed with him. Some pretty surprising people too imo.

Archaic, outdated "codes" that are really "code" for keeping women in their place deserve to be scorned.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

60. because it couldn't be anything other than 'keeping women in their place', could it?

talk about prejudice and bigotry! wow, rampant on this site as evidenced by this thread.

sP

[riderinthestorm]

73. What the fuck do you think they mean when they say playing with girls means

they can't respect "proper boundaries"?

That means in their view girls aren't allowed to mix it up with boys on an equal footing. It is prejudicial and discriminatory. I can't believe you're trying to defend this bullshit.

[obamanut2012]

85. And, since when is baseball either sexual or a contact sport???

I don't get what else "proper boundaries" can mean.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

147. Baseball can be a contact sport...

Although not desgined to be, there are alot of tough aspects to the sport.

Breaking up double plays, sliding into bases and plays at the plate can be very confrotational... especially in hgh school leagues that allow the use of steel cleats. I played catcher in high school and college and caught quite a few cleats in my legs and thighs - steel cleats cut you up pretty bad! Plus, getting hit with an 80mph baseball fuggin hurt. All of this is just part of the game.

[Zorra]

74. So...by your thinking, if black boys were considered by this church/school to be too dainty to

play with white boys, and therefore were not allowed on the white boy team because of church policy, that's just peachy with you?

And, under these conditions, if a black boy was playing on another team, and this church/school refused to play against this team because of this, that's totally OK?

[obamanut2012]

84. That is exactly what it is, as the girls aren't being treated as equals

What else is this lack of equality by this team but discrimination and bigotry, covered in a wrapper of pretty words?

[CreekDog]

111. well would you be defending it if it weren't something done by a church school?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

119. no, because a public school isn't allowed to discriminate in that way

but a church is... get it? i betcha you don't... evidenced by the whole argument you are trying to make.

sP

[CreekDog]

120. i didn't say public school...and i didn't ask whether it was legal

i asked whether you thought it was worth defending simply because a church school was behind it.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

142. i believe that unless your religion requires you

to harm others or deny them their rights then free exercise in all shapes and forms is just fine. this is one of those examples. but you are obviously having a hard time with that. either ALL religious expression is ok or NONE of it is (with the exception of causing injury or denying that someone else can exercise THEIR chosen religion).

sP

[PassingFair]

148. So it's OK for religions to sequester their daughters and then marry them off...

at young ages without their consent?

As long as it's "not hurting"anyone. Even though it perpetuates
generations of lives lived and lost without choice or hope?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

154. either it's all ok or none of it is

take your pick...bet i know which one you choose.

sP

[CreekDog]

122. Got another question for you...is that group even Catholic?

or are they simply an extremist group so far out of the mainstream that their catholic organization isn't even sanctioned by the RCC?

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2006/winter/the-new-crusaders/radical-powerhouse


"if radical traditionalists belong to a particular sect – and many do not – it is typically the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX). This sprawling international group, based in Kansas City, Kan., has published reams of anti-Semitic writings. In the late 1980s, Pope John Paul II excommunicated all SSPX priests and declared the sect formally in schism. Nevertheless, it has continued to grow. The sect reportedly has 20,000 to 30,000 members in the United States. "

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2006/winter/the-new-crusaders/radical-powerhouse

Today, SSPX's American operation, headquartered in Kansas City, Kan., claims 103 chapels and 25 schools, in addition to Kansas City-based Angelus Press. Scholar Michael Cuneo has estimated SSPX has up to 30,000 U. S. adherents.

It is in The Angelus, published monthly by the SSPX press, and on SSPX's website, that the radical anti-Semitism of the order is most evident today. One example now on the website is a 1997 Angelus article by SSPX priests Michael Crowdy and Kenneth Novak that calls for locking Jews into ghettos because "Jews are known to kill Christians." It also blames Jews for the French Revolution, communism and capitalism; suggests a Judeo-Masonic conspiracy has destroyed the Catholic Church; and describes Judaism as "inimical to all nations."

Another document reproduced on the SSPX's current website is a 1959 letter from Lefebvre's close friend, Bishop Gerald Sigaud, who also rejected the Vatican II reforms. "Money, the media, and international politics are for a large part in the hands of Jews," Bishop Sigaud wrote. "Those who have revealed the atomic secrets of the USA were … all Jews. The founders of communism were Jews."

--------

so it turns out all of us that have a problem with the BS have judged this school and what it is about correctly.

and you, you're defending it. we'll see if you keep defending it. or if you have the courage to actually post again in this thread.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

141. courage? hahahah damn, you're funny

i don't care if they are catholic, christian, muslim, sikh, hindu...it just doesn't matter. i am not defending THEM...i AM defending their right to belief and practice as they see fit... you however have a problem with their belief and practice which goes directly against your statement that you support belief and practice. the fact is, you only support what YOU approve of...the rest is all simply no OK in your book...

you're a hypocrite...it's ok...most people are when it comes to religion and the rights surrounding free exercise.

sP

[Logical]

179. It is 100% pure sexist.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

185. very illogical of you... n/t

[PavePusher]

51. WTF?

"we choose not to place them in an athletic competition where proper boundaries can only be respected with difficulty"

If you can't teach them to "respect proper boundaries" on a baseball field, HOW THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DO IT IN THE REST OF THEIR FUCKING LIVES?!?!

And that still leaves out all mention of their complete dismissal of her gesture of respect to their flaming fucktardery earlier in the year....

Fuck that school. All their adults should be crucified as a lesson to others and an offering to God.

[thelordofhell]

52. So all the boys on the other team are afraid to get to 2nd base??

[ManiacJoe]

64. Good one!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

164. If one considers the extremely orthodox beliefs of this catholic group

the issue for the administration was probably not the boys getting to second or even third base, but the possibility of the boys getting there with a teenaged girl rather than a priest. That is just unnatural.

[thelordofhell]

183. Whaa.......Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[bluedigger]

53. They did the correct thing in forfeiting the game.

They compromised their principles by participating in a league that permitted coed play in the first place.

[iverglas]

66. maybe not

They compromised their principles by participating in a league that permitted coed play in the first place.

They apply their principles only to themselves (i.e. to their kids, who aren't responsible).

The league is the one that compromised its principles by allowing that school to participate. The consequences were inevitable: girls losing out by being benched out of "respect" for the other team's policy, or teams losing out by not being able to play that team if they refused to play along.

Surely a team in a league commits to adhering to league policy, or it isn't in the league. That's how normal people operate, anyhow.

(edit -- I maybe see what you mean by compromising their principles by playing in the league -- they didn't agree with the league policy, so they should have stayed the hell out.)

But hey, when you're dealing in "charter schools", you take what you get, I imagine, and you accommodate the many charming quirks you're likely to run into, or you don't have a league.

[MadrasT]

57. WTF

I can't believe anyone here is trying to justify this as OK in any way.

[DLevine]

62. Discrimination should never be respected or tolerated. n/t

[alphafemale]

63. They should have forfeited well before game day then. Then the third place team could have played.

It's a shame that no kids got to play in that championship game.

[Horse with no Name]

65. I have no problem with this

This is their school, their rules, their choice.
Private schools can do what they want. It is when private schools take public money that I am concerned with what they do.
This? Not so much.

[MadrasT]

77. No.

Gender based religious "beliefs" that are designed to keep women and girls "in their place" are indefensible.

Full stop.

[obamanut2012]

87. The league allows coed teams, so they broke the league's rules

And, as another poster said, they waited until the last minute to forfeit, seemingly trying to intimidate and guilt Paige's coach to AGAIN bench her, but no go. Because of their selfish actions, no championship game was played. It should have been played between Mesa and the third-place team.

I've played a lot of team sports as both a youth and an adult, and this is such bad sportsmanship. No thought or consideration at all for their opponents.

[Scout]

90. could be the best post in the thread! yup, i think it is. n/t

[Horse with no Name]

92. I didn't see that initially

I believe above where I said

"they can take their balls and go home"...still applies to this.

[obamanut2012]

113. Agreed!

[CreekDog]

195. Excellent point

whatever moral code they are following, it seems designed to manipulate others into discriminating in the same way they do.

[Hippo_Tron]

172. And the Westboro Baptist loons have the right to protest funerals

However, both of these groups are bigoted assholes for exercising said rights.

[sakabatou]

67. "There's a GIRL on that team! How dare they have a girl!"

Stupid fundies.

[obamanut2012]

79. Future Olympian in that photo

Although in softball.

Paige is a badass.

And, that "Fundamentalist Catholic" breakoff is the same one Mel Gibson belongs to, I think. They don't recognize Vatican II, etc.

[Horse with no Name]

93. Except that softball was removed as an Olympic sport

I have my own personal Olympic boycott over that.

[obamanut2012]

115. I've read they are probably reversing that

I hope it's true.

[Horse with no Name]

132. They never meant to delete it in the first place

but somehow got lumped in because of the doping in baseball. I hope it comes back.

[obamanut2012]

187. I have never understood why they don't have girls'/women's baseball

Fast pitch softball is insane!

[Horse with no Name]

189. I don't care to play baseball

and played fastpitch softball for many years--and it actually takes much more skill to hit the softball than it does the baseball. Ask any major league hitter who doubted it and then got put up to the plate and served one of Jenny Finch's changeups,lol.

[obamanut2012]

190. Jenny Finch's picthcing is insane!

WHOOSH

[Horse with no Name]

191. In my younger days

In an All-Star tourney...I caught for Debbie Doom--long before I knew who Debbie Doom was. Was only told years later that it occurred.

[Rex]

86. WELL GOOD! I would not want to play against a bunch of

close minded assholes either!

[MrSlayer]

89. Proper boundaries.....difficulty.

What does this mean exactly? That the boys wouldn't be able to resist putting their hands on her or something?

This whole thing is ludicrous.

[Courtesy Flush]

138. If it's difficult, it's not worth doing.

That's the lesson of team sports, right?

[brettdale]

94. The Catholic church

Because we know in the past the catholic church has always been about treating children and woman right. This is all about putting girls and woman in their place.

[Pisces]

102. It seems like some of these uber religious wish is were Saudia Arabia. I think they all believe

women should know their place and stay at home with the babies. It is getting insane.

[Canuckistanian]

109. Sad, pathetic little men

Threatened by a female presence.

Shame.

[Odin2005]

112. Christo-fascist dicks afraid that A GIRL may beat them.

[LeftyMom]

114. SSPX is a hate group.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/radical-traditional-catholicism/the-radical-traditionalist

I'm horrified that anybody on DU is defending them.

[Zorra]

125. Eeeeewwww! nt

[Starry Messenger]

133. Yikes!

Thank you for posting.

"“Radical traditionalist” Catholics, who may make up the largest single group of serious anti-Semites in America, subscribe to an ideology that is rejected by the Vatican and some 70 million mainstream American Catholics. Many of their leaders have been condemned and even excommunicated by the official church.

Adherents of radical traditional Catholicism, or “integrism,” routinely pillory Jews as “the perpetual enemy of Christ” and worse, reject the ecumenical efforts of the Vatican, and sometimes even assert that recent popes have all been illegitimate. They are incensed by the liberalizing reforms of the 1962-65 Second Vatican Council, which condemned hatred for the Jews and rejected the accusation that Jews are collectively responsible for deicide in the form of the crucifixion of Christ.

Radical traditionalists are not the same as Catholics who call themselves “traditionalists” — people who prefer the old Latin Mass to the mass now typically said in vernacular languages — although the radicals, as well, like their liturgy in Latin. They also embrace extremely conservative social ideals with respect to women."

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/ideology/radical-traditional-catholicism

I was raised Catholic and most of the women in my family would be horrified by this "sect", which is heretical to the Catholic faith. I'm an atheist now, but still think of myself as culturally Catholic, and know that heresy is still a serious matter to mainstream Catholicism.

[baldguy]

117. "May the better team win..."

Looks like it did.

[Initech]

121. Well...

[Irishonly]

123. How can they call themselves Catholic when the article says they broke away from the church

Are they recognized by the church? I am not Catholic and maybe I am seeing too much from "broke away". Stupid rule

[Better Believe It]

130. Because there are millions of non-Roman catholics who do not follow the dictates of the pope.

One of the biggest is the Greek Catholic or Byzantine Catholic Churches.

[Irishonly]

144. Thank you

I had no clue. My google skills were terrible this time.

[CreekDog]

175. Yes, but few are called hate groups by the ADL and SPLC as this one is

that's a big difference and I don't think it serves us or you to obscure that difference.

their longtime leader and also the former head of their seminary were both anti-semites who were holocaust deniers.

[Irishonly]

182. Wow

That is a huge difference. It is disheartening that people like them are allowed around human beings, especially young people.

[Patiod]

161. They believe the RCC broke away from THEM. THEY are the "real" Catholics

They believe that Vatican II broke the mainstream Church away from the "real" Church (them). That the priest should not face the congregation - important stuff like that.

My aunt is one of these loonies. Her son went to one of their loonie colleges, and ended up working as Ken Starr's right hand man, prosecuting Susan McDougal. He and his wife are Opus Dei. One of the most sincere people I've ever met, but his mother seriously screwed him up.

[WillyT]

134. Catholic Conservatives, Afraid Of A Girl... Color Me Surprised...

[malthaussen]

139. Channeling the ghost of Cap Anson...

n/t

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

145. If the school didn't have a softball team and she is actully good enough to compete...

then I don't see the big deal that a team has a girl on the roster.

[Iggo]

150. They play in a league that allows girls.

They should forfeit EVERY game.

[proud2BlibKansan]

151. Similar story in Kansas a few years ago

IIRC a referee refused to officiate a game because one of the teams had girls playing.

[polly7]

163. So unfair.

I had to quit playing hockey and baseball on boys teams because it was the parents getting upset about it, I still don't really know why. It worked out alright for hockey because there was a womens' team in a town nearby, and always, fastball ... but I still miss baseball. When I moved back from Alberta, a friend and I started coaching a team that stayed together for 3 years .... boys and girls between the ages of 5 - 8. It was a small town and we didn't have enough of either to start separate teams ....... so we hit every tournament with this motley, crazy crew of kids that just wanted to play ball. It was by far the most fun I've ever had in my life.

[eShirl]

184. OMG they could have gotten GIRL COOTIES on them!!!1

[KurtNYC]

188. I can think of something that would have instilled "in our boys a profound respect for women":

playing the championship game and getting their butts kicked.