Did everyone know that Obama's mother was posthumously baptized by Mormons?!

[FarLeftFist]

Story is from June 2009 Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/06/mormons-baptized-obamas-m_n_197707.html

EDIT to add: Obama's mother was posthumously baptized by Mormons Without Permission.

Mormon Church spokeswoman Kim Farah said that "the offering of baptism to our deceased ancestors is a sacred practice to us and it is counter to Church policy for a Church member to submit names for baptism for persons to whom they are not related. The Church is looking into the circumstances of how this happened and does not yet have all the facts. However, this is a serious matter and we are treating it as such."

What?! The ARROGANCE of the Mormons to think they could do this. Supposedly they were sued by Jewish American Defamation League as well because they baptized dead holocaust victims.

And Part 2 of The Truth About Mormons:

&feature=related

[jberryhill]

1. Quick question for you...

Of the religions which claim to uniquely know the truth, or the closest approximation to it, which one is not "arrogant" by virtue of believing that?

[cali]

20. do any other of them proseltize the dead?

[jberryhill]

31. Many of them say prayers for dead people

I don't know how one proselytizes dead people.

The point is that each religion considers itself correct. Now, if I believed the only way for you to get ahead in the afterlife is to have someone here dance the Chicken Dance in a secret ceremony in my basement after you die, you would take offense to that offering being made on your behalf because I'm not supposed to actually believe my religion is correct?

Not one single dead person has ever objected to the Mormon's doing this.

[CreekDog]

118. You're Mr. Wordsmith and you think praying for the dead is the same as baptizing them by proxy?

[jberryhill]

120. No

I think that anyone who purports to know "what happens after we die" is a superstitious moron.

Among superstitious morons, I do not make distinctions.

Oh, I see... Asking an invisible sky being to do favors for dead people makes perfect sense, while performing other rituals for them is just silly.

Okay

[Freddie Stubbs]

80. Do the dead ever complain?

[jberryhill]

86. Pay me $10 and I'll tell you

[Riftaxe]

2. OMG he's a Mormon!

err.that is the meme your pushing, right?

I suspect, like most people..*Yawn* so what?

[customerserviceguy]

3. And this is different

from praying for dead people of another faith in what way?

[ZombieHorde]

7. It is a posthumous conversion.

That may not mean much to you, but that is the difference. Some people were upset when the Mormons were doing this to the victims of The Holocaust.

[joeglow3]

11. It is NOT a posthumous conversion

My understanding is that it gives the individual the opportunity to convert in the afterlife. They can still chose to NOT convert.

I may be wrong, but this is how it was explained to me.

[ZombieHorde]

12. That might be true. My knowledge of Mormon ritual magic isn't that detailed. nt

[FreeState]

135. Your 100% correct n/t

[customerserviceguy]

22. No, it's not a conversion

Unless the Mormon religion is 100% true. If it's 100% fake, as I believe it is, then it has absolutely no effect on anybody. Yes, I know that there were Jewish people upset by the Holocaust victims, but they tend to get upset if anybody besides their groups use the Holocaust for anything. It still had zero effect on whatever souls may or may not have existed after the victims were dead.

[ZombieHorde]

26. I was speaking of their motivation.

I am a skeptic, so I thought that went without saying.

[jberryhill]

33. Okay, so let's talk about their motivation

They are doing this because:

1. Their motivation is to offend people, or

2. Their motivation is to help people.

Tell me what you believe their motivation is.

They do this because they believe their religion is correct.

I no more want them to do this on my behalf after I am dead, than do I want nuns in a convent somewhere praying on my behalf for world peace - which is also a religious ritual purporting to involve me.

For all I know, I have sailed in a ship which, when launched, was blessed by a priest who said, "Bless this vessel and all who sail in her." Okay, given that I sailed in that ship, could you please let me know the correct degree of outrage I should have for having been received the blessing of a priest of a religion in which I do not believe?

[Capt. Obvious]

37. Their motivation - like all religion - is power

They can't get converts so they try to breed their numbers higher.

What way to really claim a huge following of your faith? Baptize dead people.

There's a lot of dead people.

[jberryhill]

38. So....

The individual Mormons who do this stuff are motivated by power and increasing LDS numbers?

I doubt that.

[Capt. Obvious]

40. Of course not

Their church is.

But you know that.

[jberryhill]

44. OMG, a church motivated by power and increasing numbers?

Why, I've never heard of such a thing.

[Capt. Obvious]

47. Good on ya

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here but carry on

[jberryhill]

51. Not really trying to "accomplish" anyone

But I'm astounded by the fact that this topic regularly comes up as:

"OMG, the Mormons have a religious practice I find offensive, and they must stop it."

We don't do that to anyone else.

It's like the nutbars who get upset over the kosher symbol on food at the grocery store - "I don't want someone blessing my food in some religion in which I don't believe".

Or maybe if we yell at them enough, they'll change their mind about what their god told them to do.

It's just so silly - on both sides. What the Mormons do is silly. Likewise it is silly to expect someone to change their religious practices because outsiders object to them.

[CreekDog]

121. Yes, many are...they want to have ultimate power in the afterlife and doing lots of proxy baptisms..

is a means to that end.

as i said upthread, some have the best of intentions, some do it for selfish reasons.

one shouldn't think that an adherent of a religion is any more or less motivated to do good for its own sake than someone in any other walk of life.

because religions have their carrots and sticks, and likewise represent the full range of humanity within their membership.

[jberryhill]

123. Yes, but...

Since Mormonism works like an Amway distributorship, they prosper to the extent that their downline distributors do.

[CreekDog]

126. You wrongly assume that people are motivated in the way their religion wants them to be

that is incorrect.

[ZombieHorde]

79. I agree they think they are helping people, but many get offended by it.

Many people are superstitious, and consider Mormons in a poor light, so the idea of Mormons casting spells on their deceased loved one's souls is disturbing.

[jberryhill]

82. Evangelicals get offended by Buddha statutes in Chinese restaurants

There are people who get offended by the kosher certification on food at the grocery store.

What we need to do is to convince more people that believing in their own religion, and practicing their religion the way god told them to do it, is offensive.

The god of the bible in whom most Christians believe, finds every religious practice other than Christianity to be offensive.

That's what religions do - each asserts that others are wrong, and everyone finds it mutually offensive.

The only reason this thing - which is probably among the least bizarre things Mormons believe - is getting regular treatment at DU is because Mitt Romney is a Mormon and we are supposed to (a) get offended and (b) transfer this sense indignation to Mitt Romney.

We are not supposed to do that in relation to Harry Reid, for reasons I still can't figure out. But when he became Senate Majority Leader, I don't recall seeing a bunch of "ZOMG, Mormon baptism!" threads.

Mormonism is a whole lot of weird, as are most religious beliefs. What's fun about Mormonism is that non-Mormons who believe in some other religion expect others to think it is in some sense "weirder than we are". I think Scientologists win the contest hands down. I still think John Travolta did a great job in _Swordfish_.

Romney is a dangerous sociopath. The fact that he is an adherent of some bizarre church is probably the least weird and scary thing about him.

[CreekDog]

119. their motivation is for the Millenium, to get credit for doing "temple work"

which helps them get to their highest level of "heaven" which allows them to rule their own world.

there may be altruism involved, but the theology offers lots of carrots for those who do this "work".

the most charitable thing i can say about the motivations are that there are good people in the Mormon faith who want others to have all that they are seeking and believe through temple work they are helping others have that opportunity.

but that depends upon the person, not the religion. big difference.

[jberryhill]

122. I'm still pissed that Green Stamps went out of business

I almost had enough for a snazzy duffle bag.

[BrownianNotion]

4. Hardly news

They've been doing this for years. I remember hearing about a group of them going to Russia or somewhere, digging out records of past dead people from public city records and posthumously baptizing all of them with no one's permission.

Their view is that no one can be admitted to heaven if not baptized, so they do nonbelievers the "favor" of baptizing them just so that they won't be excluded.

Just ignore them. Nothing you can do to prevent it, anymore than you can prevent someone from praying for you if you're a none christian.

[jwirr]

5. As was my parents and everyone who is deceased and related to me. If you have a family tree or

you are famous enough to have someone do your family tree they posthumously baptize everyone in your tree if they are linked to them. ie. If I trace my tree back to a Mormon's relative they then consider my related and all my ancestors are fair game for their own trees. I suspect that most of us have someone in our ancestory that has been baptized posthumously.

[riderinthestorm]

6. So disrespectful. I'm an atheist so this practice holds no importance but to believers its grotesque

disrespect.

Its shameful the Mormon church has no mechanism in place to stop this shit in this technological day and age. Jews have been at the forefront in objecting to this practice (Anne Frank regularly gets baptized) but honestly its just plain bad manners.

[jberryhill]

34. Which of the following is disrespectful

Please identify the disrespectful action among these alternatives:

I believe I can do something which will be of value to you in what I believe is the afterlife, so I:

(a) do it, in the belief that it will help you, or

(b) don't do, in the belief you will suffer if I don't.

You are saying that I "disrespect" you if I allow you to suffer, while I know and believe that I can do something to assist you.

In what way is it "disrespect" to choose (a) over (b)?

[riderinthestorm]

49. Believers tend to have extremely strong opinions on what happens to them in the afterlife

The Mormon baptism disrespects a believer's own personal choices they made for themselves. In essence they are "forcing" their beliefs into the zone of the non-Mormon, both the living (the family members who find out about it posthumously) and the dead (if you believe the dead have any consciousness after death).

Now I don't believe in any of that but many do, strongly.

Furthermore to make a similar analogy, the right wing believes that by outlawing abortion they are "helping" women and "helping" the unborn. Its usually motivated by similarly strongly held religious beliefs. They also take actions to force their beliefs into the zone of others who don't believe the same way they do. To say it's disrespectful on their part is simplistic but still accurate.

Religious people believe a lot of things that theoretically will "help" non-believers but that doesn't mean it's right for them to proceed. Persistent proselytizing after they've been told to stop is another way believers disrespect a person's wishes. They just keep coming back because they don't want you, the unbeliever, to "suffer" in hell. They truly believe you just simply don't understand the stakes and if they can just keep at it, you'll ultimately "get" it and they can "help" save you.

[jberryhill]

56. Obviously they DON'T have strong opinions about the afterlife

Any non-Mormon with "strong opinions" about the afterlife knows that what the Mormons are doing here is of zero consequence to anyone.

The "ask" here is, "Will you Mormons please stop believing your religion. It offends me."

We don't do that to anyone else.

[riderinthestorm]

59. Nope, we're asking them to stop performing this action. And we surely do that all the time.

They can believe all they want but once they cross over and take action upon someone else's family (even when they've been told to desist), then it becomes trouble. We tell pro-lifers to take their beliefs and shove them....

[jberryhill]

65. "We tell pro-lifers to take their beliefs and shove them"

Bad analogy.

So, you are saying that if a woman chooses to get an abortion, she should not be able to do so if the rest of her family objects.

Because that's the other side of the analogy you just made.

Now, can you please tell me how to get the priests, ministers, and rabbis to quit praying over my dad in the veterans cemetery?

[riderinthestorm]

70. Ask the ministers who knows, maybe they'll stop. That's all this is, is asking.

Last edited Mon May 14, 2012, 01:24 PM - Edit history (1)

The Mormons have agreed to stop (until they are secretly discovered to keep doing it). If you ask the ministers to stop and they agree to stop, and then they secretly do, then I'll say the same things about them - its disrespectful of your wishes. If your dead dad was an atheist who specifically did NOT want to be posthumously prayed over (like Ann Romney's dad specifically did NOT want to be posthumously baptized but they did it anyway) and they did it anyway, its even more disrespectful even as it harms him not one whit.

Pro-lifers in this country are slowly forcing their beliefs onto the population. They are certainly "objecting" to any woman getting an abortion and are taking direct actions to try to stop people doing it. Gawd told them to do this. But we then also tell them that they cannot dictate their religious beliefs on the rest of us. When they step over the legal line, we are allowed to call them on it. We most certainly can and do tell people what they can or cannot do with their faith as it relates to others.

[jberryhill]

108. Tell the Hindus to quit claiming that everyone reincarnates

If you ask a Hindu, they'll tell you what happened to Obama's mother, but nobody gets upset by that.

They did it to Anne Frank, too!

Rotten Hindus.

[riderinthestorm]

110. Since Hindus don't posthumously try to baptize anyone Hindu

I think it's safe to say that they are free from criticism on this score. They are taking no action on bringing anyone to their faith, nor are they taking any actions to bring anyone to their faith posthumously. Since they don't do that nobody's had to ask them to STOP being asses about their beliefs in the afterlife.

Only Mormons do this so they are the focus of attention for the moment since they just targeted Obama's dead atheist mother for a baptism.

[jberryhill]

113. That's right, they don't

But that's only because they believe that everyone is subject to Hindu principles, whether they are Hindu or not.

That's even more arrogant than the Mormons, who at least believe that everyone has a choice in the matter.

It's all in how you look at it.

[HereSince1628]

8. You should know one thing about what Mormons believe about vicarious baptism.

Mormons believe that this ordinance can be accepted or rejected by the deceased person -- whom they actually believe still has an existence complete with the cognitive faculties they enjoyed in their prime of life.

The vicarious baptism is something like an invitation.

Yes, Mormons believe that baptism is essential to a person's status in the afterlife. But, they also believe that the deceased person is free to
reject for all of time and eternity any benefits that might accrue from the vicarious baptism.

If some stranger wanted to sacrifice a rooster in order to save the eternal soul of my deceased grandfather, my reaction would be "huh?" rather than you ### ######### ####### ####### YOU desecrated my dead grandparent!

I am at a loss to understand how this, meaningless IMO, invitational and expressly non-binding ordinance hurts any living person, let alone the dead.

[Kalidurga]

9. Yeah, I can't seem to muster up outrage over this either.

It is a silly practice. It means absolutely nothing. It isn't like coverting someone after they are dead, is going to change the life they lived in anyway shape or form. Any way this is one of the least noxious things about Willard if he ever did any after death converting.

[riderinthestorm]

10. Except of course, they've been explicitly asked to STOP this. Many times. Over and over.

So clearly it matters to some.

You'd think they'd take it seriously enough to stop doing this shit.

[HereSince1628]

25. I really doubt the LDS will stop performing vicarious baptisms.

The temple ordinances are central to their belief about requirements for a good afterlife. Public outcry about the vicarious baptism of the dead has happened periodically since the religion was established and they've never stopped the practice. Where 50 years ago there were less than a dozen mormon temples now there are 137 with dozens more planned.

Right or wrong in any one elses opinin, that pattern suggests mormons will expand it rather than stop.

[jberryhill]

35. No dead person has asked them to stop

Please identify the followers of any religion who have discontinued believing what their religion tells them to believe, because non-believers have told them to stop believing it.

[Capt. Obvious]

48. How many dead people have you baptized?

You seem to be quite the supporter of this practice.

That is really creepy.

[jberryhill]

52. None

I think Mormonism is utter bullshit, and Joseph Smith was a successful con artist.

They believe this crap, and I don't see where it is anyone else's business to tell them what they are supposed to believe.

What's amusing to me is your simple-minded assumption that because I don't have a problem with Mormons practicing their religion, that I must be one. You are probably one of those people who only supports free speech with which you agree.

[riderinthestorm]

58. Its not the believing part that's the problem, is the action part of doing this that's trouble

They are taking actions against families of these dead folks even when they have been asked explicitly to stop.

My mom kept taking my children to church when they were visiting her. I asked her nicely more than once to stop but she thinks she's "saving" them from eternal damnation. She thinks she's helping.

The action is disrespectful in the least and I have no trouble telling her that her beliefs AND actions are wrong and stop inflicting them on my family.

[jberryhill]

61. They are not doing a GD thing against "families of these dead folks"

In fact, nobody is supposed to know what they do in their temples in the first place.

You can certainly control who has custody of your children. But we generally tend to think of religion in this country as a matter of individual choice in which other family members don't get a vote (again, setting aside minors).

It is a religious practice of theirs. Your problem is not what they "believe", but that they exercise their religious beliefs as they see fit, in a manner which does not interfere with the rights of any person at all.

You are perfectly comfortable with the majority of Christians who believe that Jews and everyone else goes to hell, because faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.

So, while you are comfortable with the idea of run-of-the-mill Christians being comfortable with most everyone else suffering eternal damnation, you take exception to one group which believes they can do something about that. Okay. It's all madness, but how you pick and choose which one is offensive, is kind of odd.

[riderinthestorm]

67. Their genealogy is not a state secret. Mormon and ex-members routinely disclose wrong doing

on the part of their leadership.

And this isn't a vote or anything else. Non-Mormon family members have asked the Mormon church to stop taking this action on dead family member. The Mormon church says it will and then they don't.

If someone is pissing on your father's grave all the time and you ask them to stop, they say they will, and then they don't, well it's disrespectful of your wishes even as it doesn't harm your dead dad at all. Pissing on your dad's grave doesn't cause any harm, hell the guy may think its helpful to your flowers on the grave. See, he's a big believer in fertilizer and he's really HELPING....

Still doesn't make it right.

[jberryhill]

71. "Still doesn't make it right"

Nothing makes any of their religious beliefs or practices "right".

I'd like Christians to stop saying that dead members of my family went to hell. I find that much more offensive.

I'd like Jews to stop saying they are "God's chosen people" and that members of my family are, consequently, not.

How do I get these people to stop doing these things?

[riderinthestorm]

74. The Mormons themselves agreed to stop it.

They haven't. That's both dishonest and disrespectful.

They were asked. They said they'd stop. They haven't. Its dishonest and disrespectful.

Nobody can make them stop. Theoretically if they were honorable people who truly lived the principles of their faith they'd abide by the promises they made.

They haven't which reflects on them and allows me the opportunity to criticize them.

You can ask the Christians to stop telling your family they are going to hell. And if they agree to stop, and then renege, then you too will have the opportunity to call them both dishonest and disrespectful if you so desire.

[jberryhill]

76. "if they were honorable people who truly lived the principles of their faith"

Clearly, their faith does not require them to keep promises made to people of other faiths.

That's not unique to Mormons either.

Here's the thing, you are applying values from other belief systems and expecting them to apply those external values to their own belief system.

They have a guy in Salt Lake City who can talk to god, and to whom god talks. That pretty much trumps any promise that any human representative of the church can make to anyone.

What god says to them is subject to change, too. God told them to quit the polygamy thing, and god also told them when it was okay to let black folks fully participate in the church.

I wouldn't expect anyone who gets memos from a god who changes his mind to be able to keep a promise made to me.

I also don't trust people whose faith informs them that they are eternally forgiven, no matter what shit they do.

You can't trust *anyone* who has an omnipotent invisible friend to keep their word on a person-to-person basis, because whatever they conclude from that relationship is going to trump anything they may have promised to mere people.

On issues for which their god has not expressly spoken, Mormons are free to apply whatever their conscience dictates, and there is nobody else in the church who can make a promise to do or not do anything on their behalf.

[riderinthestorm]

84. That's fine. I agree with this post 110%. But then I get to call them dishonest

and disrespectful and all those other adjectives that others have used on this thread.

And you are free to try to defend their actions all you like.

Discussion boards are great that way.

[jberryhill]

87. Well, here's the interesting thing

I keep a Ouija board handy for just such circumstances, and a few minutes ago, your dead great-grandmother told me to tell you to quit complaining about this, because she did indeed change her mind and decide to become a Mormon.

So, you have no basis for complaining here.

[riderinthestorm]

91. Since my dead great grandmother is nothing more than wormfood in another land

and not any kind of supernatural being, I know you are also lying.

This is fun Honestly, I'm an atheist so this is all an academic exercise for me. It interests me as all bizarre religious rites interest me. I just think when religions cross over the line to interfere with the others, even supernaturally, and especially when they've agreed to stop, its kinda shitty.

[jberryhill]

95. That's not what she told me

But the "especially when they've agreed to stop" thing is a manifestation of a common error that non-Mormons have about how authority works in the Mormon church.

I assure you that no Mormon who is engaging in this practice has agreed to stop doing it.

The Romney family continued practicing polygamy after "they agreed to stop". Have you noticed that this does not affect any of their statuses as Mormons in good standing?

That observation alone should inform your mistaken view that Mormon church leaders can make some kind of promise to non-Mormons which is binding on all Mormons.

They can't.

Incidentally, your great grandmother had a number of other things to say. If you sent me $10, I will tell you.

Oh, and, she told me to tell you to stop arguing with me. That's a freebie.

[riderinthestorm]

100. The LDS church isn't the only church with disobedient followers

The Catholic Church has tons of people who use birth control or get abortions even with direct orders from gawd's representative on earth.

The LDS church has its president and it's 12 apostles who govern the church. They DO have the power to issue directives, excommunicate etc. They are a reasonable facsimile to the Pope and the Vatican (like Salt Lake City). They can make promises etc etc. But even that doesn't matter since in every religion you have those who don't adhere to what the governing body may want everyone to do. I get that.

So you have disobedient members of the flock who do shitty things and it reflects badly on the church. Dog bites man. Water is wet.

None of that changes my position that they're acting disrespectfully.

[riderinthestorm]

50. Living family members have asked them to stop. That should be more than sufficient. nt

[jberryhill]

54. Yeah, so?

Living family members have asked any number of religions not to preach to their other living family members, let alone dead ones.

How is it "sufficient" for living non-Mormons to make Mormons stop acting in accordance with their belief they are helping dead people.

So, on Memorial Day, when I go to visit my father in a veterans cemetery, I get to stand up and object when they have a Catholic priest ask for blessings on the people buried there?

They have an interfaith service at that cemetery every year. Representatives of a variety of religions are going to bother their gods to bless my dad.

Please tell me the appropriate way to get them - the Baptists, Catholics, Jews, and the lot of them - to stop doing that.

But, let's put aside dead people for a minute, and talk about living people. If a Muslim converts to Christianity because he changed his mind in response to hearing some preacher, does the rest of that Muslim's family get a vote?

[riderinthestorm]

63. You can ask them to stop. Period.

And in your analogy of a convert, I presume that the Muslim family would have a LOT to say about it just as the Non-Mormons are articulating their objections.

That's all this is Jerry. The Mormon's have been asked to stop and they don't. Its disrespectful in that context.

That they've said they'll stop this nonsense and then they renege and they persist? Well that's a whole other level of wrong imho.

[jberryhill]

66. Christians asked Jews to stop practicing their religion for hundreds of years

...to no effect.

Might as well try to keep the sun from coming up than asking people to stop doing something they believe god told them to do.

They've got a god telling them "Do X" and a bunch of non-believers telling them "Don't do X". Which one do you think is going to win?

[riderinthestorm]

69. In essence, the Mormons are being asked to stop proselytizing

and it's something they've already agreed to stop doing.

That's hardly akin to asking them to stop practicing THEIR ENTIRE FUCKING RELIGION.

[jberryhill]

72. They think their god told them to do it

Asking someone to stop doing something which their god told them to do, and which has zero material consequences to anyone else, is arrogant and disrespectful. Period.

[riderinthestorm]

75. They AGREED themselves to stop it.

What part of that are you not comprehending?

They agreed to stop it themselves. Then they persisted in secret. It's both dishonest AND disrespectful.

My mom thinks Gawd says my children should be in church on Sunday am. Your grave caretaker thinks Gawd wants him to piss on your dad's grave to fertilize the flowers. Neither one of those two things makes one whit of difference to either my children's afterlife or your dead dad. But if they keep doing it after you've asked them to stop, and they agreed to stop, is both dishonest and disrespectful.

You (or I) can take further action, or not. Barack Obama can take further action against the Mormon church to stop the proselytizing (posthumous baptism of his dead mom) if he so desires (I have no idea if he has or not). One thing's for sure however, the Jews for example have asked the Mormons to stop, the Mormons have agreed, and yet they keep doing it to Jews.

[jberryhill]

77. Who is this "THEY"

You don't understand that, absent a specific instruction by god received by the prophet, there is nobody in the Mormon church who can promise anything on behalf of everyone else in the church.

Again, you seem to think they have some equivalent of the Pope who, yes, can indeed infallibly and authoritatively speak for the entire Catholic church.

Mormonism doesn't work that way. Each male Mormon is on his way to becoming a god of his own.

Absent a specific revelation from their god, as received by their prophet, what they do is a matter of individual conscience.

People who receive instructions from god can't keep promises. Because if their god tells them to do X, then it doesn't matter what they told anyone else they would or would not do.

Their god never told them to stop doing it, and they are going to keep doing it until such time as their god tells them to stop. In the meantime, you betcha, they are going to say just about anything to mollify their human critics.

[riderinthestorm]

89. The Mormon church leadership agreed to it.

I have no idea if their gawd told them to stop as well. It doesn't matter imho since its all bullshit nonsense anyway. The only thing that's relevant to this discussion is that they "the amorphous Mormon church leadership" were asked to stop doing this, they directed their members to stop, they agreed to stop, and then they reneged. If one of their members transgresses official church policy they are usually excommunicated. Clearly that isn't happening so I presume we can agree they are lying liars.

So if they are lying liars, which we both agree is truth, then I'm not sure why you think there's any problem with anyone calling them "disrespectful" (which is probably amongst the mildest of criticisms you can lay at their feet for this). I'm pretty sure I remember you are a lawyer so perhaps you simply get off on arguing for the hell of it. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

I saw your argument upthread about why anyone would care NOW instead of when Harry Reid, a fellow Mormon, was installed as Senate leader. I'm guessing its because we're now talking several degrees of power difference between Harry Reid's position and the POTUS. I'd also stipulate that its an issue because this happens to be President Obama's mother who was an avowed atheist - performing religious voodoo over the POTUS' dead atheist mom seems more newsworthy?

[jberryhill]

93. Again, you do not understand how authority works in their church

The Mormon church leadership can say a lot of things that are not binding on anyone else in Mormonism.

It's probably a good bet that those church leaders who said they'd stop doing it, aren't doing it anymore.

You know, the Romney family left Utah and went to Mexico to practice polygamy, when the LDS leadership in Utah received their revelation on that subject - which is not as definitive as people think it is.

Upon their return to the US, did the Romney family have to become Mormons again? No. They never stopped being Mormons in good standing, even though they had continued to practice something the leadership said to quit doing.

You think that because some particular Mormon leaders have said something, that other Mormons are supposed to find it binding on them. Mormonism doesn't work that way, and it is another example of how you expect Mormons to behave in ways that other groups behave, instead of behaving according to the way that they actually believe.

[riderinthestorm]

137. Sure they can enforce it, they can excommunicate members.

They have enforcement mechanisms to ensure compliance with their religious policies.

Now whether they do that for something like this is another matter (and a telling one at that) but I presume they quietly let this stuff slide.

[jwirr]

73. I once sat in on a discussion of this idea at a genealogy society gathering. We were talking about

how the other parts of the church felt about it. I listened for a while and then stated that I did not care what they did as they had no power over the dead anyhow. Needless to say the Mormons members were not happy with me. But if you buy into their ideas then it has some power over you not the dead. I rejected it and am not in the least worried about what they are doing behind closed doors.

[HereSince1628]

88. Yes I get that completely. I don't think most people "get" why mormons do baptism for the dead.

Mormon belief is constructed in a manner that solves a number of peculiar fringe theological issues among church goers in early 1800's America.

There are two major camps of christians relative to baptism. Some think baptism isn't essential as everyone is saved by the grace of God's acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus. Others believe that baptism, and good works are absolutely essential to receiving heavenly rewards in the afterlife. Mormonism grew out of this later category of belief as if on steroids.

Moreover (and this is quite important to grasping the problem), Mormons believe that only their priesthoods had (and have) the proper lines of authority in the eyes of god to perform truly religious rituals like baptism. The absolutism of that position creates a theological problem.

What about people who were born before the truth was restored by Joe Smith? Logic and a look at a map would suggest that millions of people born in places where the restored truth hadn't yet been delivered and who died without a mormon baptism. Considered strictly without proper baptism they were going to be blocked from heavenly gifts. Banning such people from heaven because they were born in the wrong place and time isn't fair at all!!! The book of Mormon's story about Jesus preaching in America after his resurrection and the temple ordinance of vicarious baptism of the dead are both solutions to this peculiar problem. It's a problem other christians sects don't seem to be concerned with at all.

But for Mormons its one of the biggest of the big problems to be solved by the one 'true' church. Consequently, Mormons look at vicarious baptism for the dead as an act of charity done in the name of christ. The vicarious baptisms enable those who could not otherwise experience the joys of being in the presence of the godhead in the afterlife.

So, as you say if a person doesn't accept the authority of the LDS to do these things, then these ritualsa re, as you say, truly meaningless with little power to offend--it's mostly something weird and not a little bit creepy about an otherwise clean cut group of Postum drinkers.

On the other hand if you belong to a faith tradition that believes that the LDS are the devil's agents or have some sort of corrupting magical power to harm your ancestors, then this is something that must be fought vigorously.

Historically, public awareness and concern about vicarious baptism comes and goes. We seem to be in a period of waxing concern.

[cynatnite]

13. They do this shit all the time...

The Mormon church does next to nothing to discourage it, either. They'll say just enough to get people off their backs, but behind the scenes they're giving approval for this.

I was told this by a member of that church when we lived in Idaho.

[SoutherDem]

14. What a dilemma for FOX

How do you attack Obama for his mother being posthumously baptized Mormon which we all know is a cult while supporting Romney who is a Mormon which of course isn't a cult.

I am sure they will work it out someway.

[Raine]

15. I really think their intentions are good, afterall they are only trying to ensure that the person

goes to heaven. I know some find it insulting but the Mormons according to what they believe are helping the person into paradise.

[cali]

21. well that's nice, but believe it or not, there are people it seriously offends and they've

been asked not to do it. To keep doing something that is theologically offensive to quite a few, is indeed arrogant- even if it doesn't bother you.

[jberryhill]

36. And believers of religion X often find religion Y to be offensive

Why should anyone stop practicing their religion because other people find their religious beliefs to be offensive?

My father is buried in a US veterans cemetery. On a regular basis, believers of various religions conduct ceremonies there. If a group of (insert Wiccan, Catholics, Jews, or whatever) performs a ceremony there and invokes the blessings of their faith upon all those buried in that cemetery, what should I do to stop them?

[cali]

39. I'd contest that this is hardly a vital part of practicing their religion- or they wouldn't

have said they'd stop it.

[jberryhill]

43. It's not up to anyone outside of a religion to tell believers what is "vital" or not

They've said they would stop it as a public relations matter.

In point of fact, outside of the temples, nobody is supposed to know what they are doing in there.

[cali]

45. hello? Mormon leaders have said it, dearie.

[jberryhill]

46. I am not your "dearie", got that?

And while I understand that it gives you a rush of condescending pride to use forms of address like that, please stop.

Read what I wrote. Do you see the phrase "public relations"? I'm certain I wrote it, and it shows up on my screen. Perhaps you should have yours checked.

Mormon leaders will not tell anyone Jack Shit about the weird crap that they do inside their temples. And that is also an official position.

Incidentally, I just gave all of your dead ancestors a noogie in the afterlife. Deal with it.

[LadyHawkAZ]

81. A bit testy, aren't we?

Here's a thought: I do not want a band of loonies- anywhere, for any reason!- using my name to pad their membership rolls after I die. I don't care what magic-sky-god beliefs they hold that say it's OK; I don't want it to happen, any more than I want someone using my name to vote Republican after I die. My grandmother was emphatically not Mormon; I don't want them padding their rolls with her name either. I don't know what your problem is with this, exactly- for some reason you seem to feel that since it's part of their faith, it's totally OK for them to disrespect the faith (or lack of faith) of everyone else. And lie about it for public relations. As long as they hide the ceremony in a temple where the public can't see.

No. If my name or any of my family are on their rolls, it's a lie. We aren't/weren't Mormons and I don't want them using us to give their "faith" the appearance of legitimacy. I do not give a crap if it's part of their "faith". Their right to their faith stops where the faith of others begins.

It's not that difficult to understand. Really. It has nothing to do with being told what to believe, and everything to do with not being able to force that "belief" on anyone else. Or their descendants.

[jberryhill]

83. Yes, but....

When you die, and find out that you were wrong all along, and that Mormons are correct, then what do you plan to do about it?

Can you please tell me how it is you determined that your notion of the afterlife is any more correct than the Mormons? Can you share this inside information with the rest of us?

[LadyHawkAZ]

97. Ah, so THAT'S why you're so testy

What part of "What I believe is not the business of the LDS Church and I refuse to have my name or my non-mormon relative's names padding out their member rolls, now or at any other time" was unclear to you?

[jberryhill]

101. Okay, fine, but...

...what happens if you change your mind after you are dead?

Have you never changed your mind?

And how do you make a religious decision on the part of your dead relatives? Is it your decision to make?

It strikes me that you seem equally invested in telling your dead relatives what to do as the Mormons are.

And, I didn't ask your dead great grandmother to talk to me through my Ouija board, either. But... there we are.

[LadyHawkAZ]

103. Fine...

I just spoke to my late gramma Howell and my late aunt Martha. They both told me that a) Mormons are 100% wrong about everything and need to cease baptising members posthumously and b) you may not post in this thread on penalty of being reincarnated as a Colorado River toad.

Prove me wrong.

[jberryhill]

104. Ribbit

[LadyHawkAZ]

106. See?

I was RIGHT about the Mormons!

Lick.

[4th law of robotics]

42. People who do this and people who get offended when it is done

remind me of kids in the play ground arguing over cooties.

[eShirl]

32. Most busybody do-gooders have the opinion they are helping.

I'm more of the "I've got my beeswax, you've got yours" persuasion.

[HiPointDem]

16. Everyone is. They do it to all dead people, past & present.

[JDPriestly]

17. My grandfather married a Mormon. Big mistake! She apparently tried to make Mormons of us all.

Or so I've been told.

Well, anyway, I'm definitely not a Mormon no matter what magic words or whatever have been said in my absence.

The Mormons can't convert enough people through tidy suits, short haircuts, persuasion and charm, so they put our names on some sort of conversion list they have. It's kinda' cute, if you ask me, but I hardly think it means much.

[Posteritatis]

18. I'm pretty sure I've been posthumously baptised by them and I'm not even dead yet. (nt)

[MrSlayer]

19. Suppose they pissed on her grave.

Suppose they pissed on it and damned her to Hell. Would it make a single bit of difference in the grand scheme of things? Of course not. Wishing someone ill on their "journey" is equally as meaningful as wishing someone to experience your version of salvation. That is to say, not at all.

The truly outrageous thing about this is that any part of it is being taken seriously or given credence. Anyone of any religion could have done the same thing and it would be just as ludicrous.

[cali]

24. In the grand scheme of things it could make a difference

wars have been started over less.

the point is that it offends people and they've been asked to stop.

[IDemo]

23. Somebody should begin prehumously baptizing Mormons into different religions

Because it's no big deal and they shouldn't take offense, right?

[GoCubsGo]

28. Bill Maher un-baptized Romney's father-in-law

I would love to see some actual ordained minister or priest do that. And, maybe un-baptize a Mormons while he/she is at it. If they wanted to be a real asshole, they could start with Joseph Smith.

[KansDem]

102. Bill Maher does an un-baptism of the dead

[Harmony Blue]

27. If you were to compare the Church of Ladder Day Saints to Eastern Orthodox Christianity

the differences are like night an day. o.O

[lynne]

29. Why is this news? Been going on for years -

- they've probably baptized your Grandma and Great-Grandma, too. Only difference is you don't know it.

[TBF]

78. Because something has been "going on for years" does not

make it the right thing to do. And, just because some people know that they do this doesn't mean it's wide-spread knowledge.

[eShirl]

30. Just assume they do it to everyone who dies.

[4th law of robotics]

41. They do this to a lot of people

meh. It makes them happy (I guess) and there's no harm in it. As religious nuttery goes this is pretty benign.

[siligut]

53. Yes, all it does really is show a total lack of respect for people and their religions. nt

[4th law of robotics]

55. Religious people tend to only respect their own religious beliefs

nothing new.

Really I don't see why people get bothered by this. The whole thing is so juvenile (you have cooties! Nu-uh I took my cootie shot I'm safe! Well I will give you super-cooties can beat the cootie-vaccination! And so on . . . )

[siligut]

64. People have the right to their beliefs

And Mormons can't seem to keep that to themselves. They watch the obits and then prey on people who have lost a relative.

They go door to door spreading a story that has been proven to be false, they are trained specifically to manipulate people into joining with their "milk before the meat" approach and love bombing.

Baptism for the dead is just another example of how Mormons demonstrate their belief that they are the only right religion.

Admit it, they use cult methods.

[4th law of robotics]

114. I just don't see waving your arms around and chanting some dead guys name as "preying on them"

Weird, sure. Intolerant, yep. But you aren't causing any real harm. It's all make-believe anyway.

Baptism for the dead is just another example of how Mormons demonstrate their belief that they are the only right religion.

As opposed to every other religion ever?

Admit it, they use cult methods.

So does Apple.

[jberryhill]

115. "So does Apple"

And the now-Mormon Steve Jobs is down with that.

[4th law of robotics]

116. Actually, isn't Buddhism kinda the same thing?

They believe everyone reincarnates whether you were a Buddhist in life or not. So . . . they pretty much believe you're stuck with their religion even in death.

But no one seems too upset by that.

[jberryhill]

117. It's even worse

Mormons offer the dead a choice.

Buddhists don't.

[jberryhill]

57. Okay, so when Christians say "Believe in Christ or go to Hell"

They do so out of great "respect" for people of other religious persuasions?

I got some news for you. The gods of most religions don't have a lot of respect for other religions.

[siligut]

60. Most Christians don't go door to door telling people they will go to hell

And while most Christian churches preach/believe they are on the right path, they don't believe they can interfere with what others believe. Baptism for the dead is an in-your-face practice.

And seriously, the excuse that everyone does it is a pretty poor one, for anyone to use.

[jberryhill]

62. Mormons don't do this door to door either

In fact, ALL of their temple ceremonies are secret, and not even supposed to be discussed outside of the temple.

You can't get further away from "in your face" than that.

The ONLY reason this becomes an issue is because some people are going to take irrational offense at this irrational Mormon practice, so there are those who make it their business to engage in what would be theft of trade secrets in the commercial context, to "expose" on whose behalf they've been doing this nonsense.

If it was up to the Mormons - we wouldn't even hear about it.

Your assertion that this is an "in your face" sort of thing is ridiculous. Mormons don't even like to talk about it, and it is non-Mormons who make it their business to publicize it.

[siligut]

68. They have been asked to stop

Baptism for the dead is not secret. The blood oaths and the putting on of satan's apron, that is what is kept secret. Of course they don't like to talk about it, it is weird.

It shows arrogant disrespect, plain and simple.

[jberryhill]

85. Muslims in NYC, TN, and elsewhere have been asked to stop doing things too

It's what America is all about - asking people to stop doing religious shit we don't like.

[siligut]

90. Back to the "everybody is doing it" meme?

I have already said that doesn't work. And I don't know what the Muslims are doing? Are they disrespecting the religion of others?

[jberryhill]

92. Yes, they are

Are you seriously going to tell me that you managed to miss the whole "Muslims should be sensitive to others" thing in connection with the "9/11 Victory Mosque"?

That was the argument there:

"We're not saying that Muslims can't practice their religion, but they should show some consideration for the feelings of people who don't want them to do it in lower Manhattan."

Many here at DU did and do agree with that: The fact that Muslims would build a religious/community center in lower Manhattan demonstrates their lack of concern for the feelings of others, and is arrogant and disrespectful.

You want to know another thing Muslims do? They deny the Trinity. Many Christians find that disrespectful of their belief in the Trinity.

Christianity itself can be simply summed up as - "Jews don't understand their own religion". It is incredibly disrespectful for Christians to say that Jesus was the prophesied Jewish Messiah, when Jews don't believe that. Christians need to show some respect and stop saying that stuff.

Jews, on the other hand, say they are "God's chosen people" meaning nobody else is. That is disrespectful of everyone else.

You really haven't thought about how much "disrespect and arrogance" is running around on the loose here.

[siligut]

94. It is so not the same thing

Muslims were expressing their religion, not saying that they wanted to force people to be Muslims. I don't know about the business of BFTD just being an opportunity to convert, seriously just I think it is an occult ritual and an indicator of Mormon disregard for the religion of others.

You are determined to say that it is OK because other people do it, you believe that, I don't.

[jberryhill]

96. Where does the "force" thing come in?

The Mormons believe that dead people on whose behalf can accept or reject the baptism performed on their behalf.

How is that "forcing" anyone to do anything?

If a Baptist invites you to their church, then are they "forcing" you to do something? No. You can say "thanks, but no thanks".

But you must not have been around DU during the "Ground Zero Mosque" discussion. Many DUers are positively outraged by it.

Oh, and the people upset by the "Ground Zero Mosque" are upset precisely because they believe it is disrespectful to the family members who had loved ones die on 9/11.

It is exactly the same well of "respect our dead family members" from which the anger at the "Ground Zero Mosque" arises.

[siligut]

98. From the tactics used on people while alive . . .

I doubt that Mormons are more considerate of them when they are dead. I said respect the religion of others. It shows disrespect for the religion of others, the religion of living people.

[jberryhill]

99. And what tactics are those?

Going door to door, handing them a book, and asking if they'd like to read it?

Do you object to political canvassing because it does not respect the political beliefs of others?

By what principle is any religion supposed to respect any other religion? If members of some religion say "Our religion is correct, and all other ones are wrong" is that "disrespectful"? Because Mormons are hardly unique in that regard.

[CreekDog]

124. I do object to it where it is dishonest

and unfortunately, though the young people who do most Missionary work are well-intended, even idealistic about it, the troubling stuff is saved until later.

but that said, i think that's the case with almost every religion --the main difference is that unlike other religions, there are lots of prohibitions to make Mormons fear revealing things that a prospective member might want to know about. mainstream religions may not advertise their least appealing parts, but most of it is not an enforced secret.

[jberryhill]

127. That's a larger structural issue

...about the "secret stuff" or the "milk before meat" maxim of Mormon teaching.

(and you probably know their "sacred, not secret" maxim)

It's true that Mormonism is in the minority of groups which maintain confidential truths. This puts them in with Scientology, the Masons (albeit not a religion per se, but the model for Mormon practice), and various orders and fraternities which operate in other "disclosed" religions.

But in relation to proxy baptism, their rationale is pretty clear, and simply boils down to a religion asserting "we think our religion is correct" more than some kind of snub. Asking people not to believe their religion is correct strikes me as an odd thing to ask anyone.

Born-again Christians are confident in the knowledge that non-believers suffer eternal death, hell or various species of undesirable afterlife outcome. I find their smug satisfaction with that state of affairs to be more offensive, on a strictly human level, than a group which believes they can improve matters for dead unbelievers.

As pointed out above, it solves a problem which other Christian groups dance around - namely, "what about people who weren't geographically or temporally able to know about what they were supposed to believe". Granted, it solves this problem in a way that other people find creepy, but that's only because they are refusing to look at the practice from the perspective of Mormons themselves. So, therefore, they take it as some sort of intentional insult for Mormons, again, to believe that their religion is correct.

I don't know how you politely ask someone, "Excuse me, but could you please stop behaving as if you believe your religion is true" without such a request itself being considered offensive.

[CreekDog]

129. Don't mistake my criticism of Mormonism for defending evangelical Christianity

My criticism is twofold:

1) if some belief is odious, one should be free to say so...being a "religion" should not be a shield/defense of intolerance
2) when joining any religion with secret theology, one should be aware that they may find out things which are troubling, but upon threat, you will be expected to keep secret forever.

[jberryhill]

130. Good points

One is certainly free to assert that the belief of any religious group is odious.

I just find it odd that proxy baptism is frequently argued to be somehow "more odious" than the Christian belief that non-Christians are eternally damned with no recourse. Mormonism, at least, can be said to be more flexible in that regard.

And that includes every Holocaust victim. In the orthodox Christian view, they went right from suffering in the camps to suffering in the afterlife. Otherwise, Christianity can shut down right now as having no eternal benefit to offer.

[CreekDog]

125. Oh? What happens if you're an ex-Mormon and you say what happens in the temple?

you think you won't get told some version of you're going to hell?

do you think your neighbors (if you live in a Mormon are) won't ostracize you or be told to avoid you?

it's not all happy, happy, be nice to people commercials.

there is a dark side. and yes, the dark side is in other religions, but the secrecy is not in most mainstream ones.

[jberryhill]

128. Not having been a Mormon, nor being one, I'm not entirely sure

I had heard that the symbolic throat and stomach cutting was dropped from updated endowment rituals a few years back, but of course my only knowledge of that would be hearsay.

Naturally, religions which are a "take it or leave it" proposition do not have the same manipulative power that "believe this or bad stuff happens" has, but you'll go to hell upon excommunication from a lot of Christian religions.

And of course some Muslim cultural groups are better at that kind of enforcement than Mormons could hope to be.

If there is to be had a "deep dark secret" withheld from pew fodder in Evangelical/Born-Again types of groups, it is the surprising number of their own ministers of moderately high intelligence who have come to the point where they no longer believe their professed doctrines are important, but are at a point in life where they have no other occupation upon which to fall back, or keep preaching in an effort to convince themselves. And by "surprising", I mean "large".

I believe I had mentioned to you in the past that I had the misfortune of living in Logan for a stint due to employment reasons many years ago, so I did take a keen interest in "what's up with these people?"

On edit: I shouldn't say "misfortune". Logan, Utah was at that time a quite beautiful place to live. Socially... umm... a little odd. I was subject to a variety of subtle, yet clearly discernible incidents of discrimination as well.

[CreekDog]

131. I was wondering how you knew that stuff --not common knowledge

but living in Utah is like taking upper division courses in Mormon theology.

and your point about how many longtime ministers don't believe it anymore --it wouldn't surprise me.

in a recent interview of Anna Quindlen, she kind of really summed up what I hadn't put into words myself when she said that:

she left because of the political and social conservatism of the Catholic church and then when asked if she missed it, said that actually she did not. because she basically had heard it all and there was a point where she stopped hearing anything new.

for me it's a little like that with Christianity. i'm tired of defending parts of it that i can't justify to myself and i'm tired of defending myself (or hiding myself) amidst a Christian community that has grown so conservative over the years that it is simply unpleasant to be in these settings for me any longer. and even though i was only in evangelical settings for a little while, the Left Behind BS, the Billy and Franklin Graham nonsense, the political conservatism, the resentment of science and scholarship has proliferated beyond the evangelical settings (even some Catholics read or follow such BS) and at some point, just became too much for me.

and though my previous church was very progressive, the damage was already done and even being there was a reminder of all the crap i heard, even back to the Mormons in Provo, that when i took a break last summer, i was surprised to find that i didn't miss it --perhaps am even happier being without it than i'd ever imagined.

[MineralMan]

105. Yes, but does anyone think it actually means anything?

That seems to me to be a pertinent question. As an atheist, I'd just laugh if someone baptized me in absentia. How would that possibly affect Obama's mother? It's silliness.

[jberryhill]

107. The Hindus reincarnated her, but nobody seems to mind

[MineralMan]

109. Karma, Dharma, Shmarma.

If I don't believe it, let them do whatever they wish with my "immortal soul." Who cares?

Whatever gives them a charge, I suppose.

[riderinthestorm]

111. Actually the Hindus didn't reincarnate her. Obama's mother's reincarnation fate is/was in her own

hands in their view. Her destiny depended on the balance of her actions in this life. Nobody decides on reincarnation except the person involved.

[jberryhill]

112. So they go around saying that Christians aren't going to Heaven

That's just so disrespectful and arrogant of them.

[riderinthestorm]

133. HIndus don't say or do anything to Christians (or other believers of other faiths).

They don't perform baptisms or proselytize. They don't say one word about any of that. I presume the most it comes up in the US is when Ravi asks Bob if he wants to go golfing on Sunday and Bob says he's headed to the 1st Baptist Church for services. Or Bob asks Ravi if he wants to come over for a mid-day picnic on Saturday and Ravi answers he's headed to the Hindu temple for a festival.

Then both of them understand that each of the other is doomed without a word being exchanged or any kind of baptism being performed. There's no direct disrespectful action being taken on either part.

The Mormons however are taking a direct action even when they've been asked to stop. And even as it's official church policy for this shit to never happen.

I'm an equal opportunity religious critic. They're all ridiculous beliefs akin to believing in Santa or Zeus imho. But this thread is dealing with purposefully disrespectful Mormon actions however much you want to make this an all inclusive religious slam fest.

[jberryhill]

136. I'll pray for you

[riderinthestorm]

138. .

Peace out

[cherokeeprogressive]

132. Just don't laugh if you're baptized

post mortem. That would be fucking creepy.

[MineralMan]

134. Really. That would be creepy.

Really creepy.