At this point in time, has the autopsy report changed your view of Zimmerman's guilt?

[Stinky The Clown]

The autopsy reports on Trayvon Martin and the doctor's reports on George Zimmerman seem to be paiting a different picture of what may have happened that awful night.

No trial has occurred. No jurors have voted. No lawyers have made or refuted a case. But that doesn't stop people from holding opinions.

Has yours changed?

[marybourg]

1. No.

[ScreamingMeemie]

2. The doctor was his family doctor so... I throw out anything that he says, in light of the pictures

we have from that night. No, if anything, I am more convinced he's a murderer. If he was truly a "victim" he would have immediately sought medical attention at the ER.

[slackmaster]

3. I decided a long time ago that Zimmerman's actions were morally wrong. I am still undecided...

...on whether or not he's guilty of a crime. Only a court of law can do that. The autopsy results come as no surprise and make no difference to me.

Trayvon Martin should not have died. Zimmerman initiated the episode that led to the shooting. Zimmerman is responsible for the death.

[EOTE]

4. Hell no.

God only knows who initiated that fight, but Trayvon was the only one who had a legitimate reason to initiate a fight. Zimmerman is an evil fuck and I truly hope he spends a good chunk of his life in prison so he can think about what his fucked up vigilante lifestyle has brought about.

[ananda]

5. No

nt

[K.T.M.]

6. No!

He executed that small child!
He is guilty, he will be found guilty and any evidence is either faked or outright lies.

I do not need any so called "evidence" to disprove what I already know.

[dkf]

16. The small child was over 6 feet tall.

I guess it is true that no evidence will change your mind.

[Mariana]

36. I believe the poster was being sarcastic. nt.

[obamanut2012]

77. Yes

[NoGOPZone]

83. and has been shown the door.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=284689&sub=trans

FWIW, I also thought the sarcasm was obvious.

[Chemisse]

99. I didn't realize it was sarcasm - thought it was hyperbole.

Luckily others noted it and acted.

[obamanut2012]

78. Welcome to DU

[DJ13]

7. No

He still left his vehicle to initiate the confrontation.

And...... if Zimmerman had those kinds of wounds the police would have required him to visit the ER as SOP just to protect themselves from potential liability.

I think his day after doctor visit is BS.

[Remmah2]

8. Is that a loaded question? nt

nt

[Stinky The Clown]

9. No. But I knew that is how some would see it.

What caused *you* to ask the question?

[Remmah2]

19. Makes me wonder what has happened to our justice system.

Both sides of the case had their verdicts in the first day the shit went down.

The science and the investigation experts have to go where they go. Mega media hype going on.

Has my opinion changed? NO, because I've seen no trial or formal evidence.

Justice without due process is just a lynching.

[LACarMan]

29. What does nt mean

I see that you included it on both the reply title and the message text. Is it some sort of code?

[Remmah2]

35. Same as NTXT nt

nt

[Stinky The Clown]

37. Heh, why would you think that answered his/her question?

How much more effort would be involved in giving a one sentence answer?

eom

[Remmah2]

159. What's the problem? nt

nt

[LACarMan]

175. So nt means no text?

I think I get it, but, why post "nt" in the text box as well?

[Remmah2]

177. Sometimes the message-text box has to have a minimum input. So...

End of the reply-title "nt" or NTXT is put, along with the place holder in the message box.

[Chemisse]

101. I remember a few years ago when I asked that very same question.

Someone kindly answered me.

It made me feel warm and welcome when people responded that way to my newbie questions. It's little things like that that make the world a better place.

[EOTE]

103. In case you haven't received a decent reply as of yet...

It means "no text". It's usually included in just the title of the reply if there's no text in the body of the message. It helps people know that they need not look at the body of the message because the title has everything in it.

Welcome to DU, by the way.

[Chemisse]

104. It means there is no message in the body of the post,

Just the subject line. (I think it stands for 'no text'). It's a nicety that prevents people from having to click into the post just to see there is no text in it - a minor annoyance.

[treestar]

10. No. You don't shoot someone for punching you in the nose

If that is indeed what happened. It will be very difficult to re-construct what actually happened.

[slackmaster]

14. Actually, you can shoot someone for punching you in the nose. What you CAN'T do is pick a fight,

...then shoot the person when you are losing the fight you started.

Any blow to the head can be fatal, or cause a traumatic brain injury. But you can't claim self-defense for using deadly force in a fight that you initiated.

[uponit7771]

24. You no doubt do NOT shoot someone while being punched in the nose on the ground

[slackmaster]

47. It seems to me it would be very difficult to do so

But it might be justifiable. IMO it all hinges on how the physical confrontation started, i.e. how it made the transition from something that was not a physical struggle into an actual fight.

[stevenleser]

132. And not from an 'intermediate distance" nt

[alarimer]

154. He was shot from intermediate range, not up close.

So Zimmerman was probably not being punched at the time he shot the kid. He was a few feet away at least.

[slackmaster]

161. You are mistaken about what intermediate range means in this context. Google some definitions.

You'll find that the term means not in direct physical contact, but close enough that the skin of the victim has powder burns, embedded powder residue, or the term "powder tattooing."

That could be anywhere from a fraction of an inch to multiple feet, but not any specific range of distance because of variations in ballistics among different calibers, loads, and the characteristics of the weapon used.

All that finding tells us is that the muzzle of the gun was not touching Trayvon's body when the gun was fired.

[TheWraith]

94. Just to expound on what you said...

You can shoot someone for punching you in the nose if that punch is part of an attack that is reasonably expected to end in beating, rape, or death. While theoretically any unshielded punch to the head can be fatal, the odds of a SINGLE punch being so are extremely low. Although I'm sure you know this, I'm just elaborating for those who might misinterpret you.

[treestar]

109. Getting punched in the nose is not fatal

So it wouldn't be deadly force. A reasonable person would not believe they are going to be killed because somebody punched them in the hose.

[slackmaster]

160. I disagree completely. Any blow to the head can be fatal, or cause a person to fall and receive...

...a fatal injury on hitting the ground.

Any violent physical attack justifies use of greater force in response, as long as the purpose of the response is to STOP the attack. You can't legally decide to KILL someone in response to the person breaking your nose. That would be murder, but can certainly use whatever force you have available to STOP the person from hitting you again.

[B2G]

11. I haven't made up my mind yet

I'll wait to hear all of the evidence on both sides.

[badtoworse]

12. I haven't either.

[nenagh]

13. Perhaps a better question would be, George Zimmerman is on medication which can be used for ADHD..

What side effects of the medication did Zimmerman exhibit.. Apparently he had trouble sleeping, because he was prescribed Temazepam. (apparently)

Was Zimmeman possibly more anxious, more paranoid after using the medication..

We see that Zimmerman lost weight ... from his original mug shot.... was this a side effect of the medication he was on?

Was Zimmerman impulsive? etc

[NoGOPZone]

15. I havent seen the actual report anywhere online

and the press accounts aren't helping. "Injuries to his knuckles" that is being reported on many sources is a lot different than a "quarter inch wound on his left ring finger below the knuckle" at least one source is saying. The reported "intermediate range" firing doesn't help much either. That says more about what was found in and around the wound and on the body and clothing rather than specifying an exact distance. Also, the autopsy wouldn't provide any evidence of Zimmerman's injuries. So to answer your question as asked, at this point in time it hasn't changed.

[Bluerthanblue]

17. no, the facts remain the same.

Trayvon Martin is dead as a result of a gunshot wound to the chest. A small abrasion on his ring finger doesn't support the claim that he had inflicted serious harm to another using his fists.

George Zimmerman was in good health when escorted to the Sanford Police Dept. as seen on the video, and was not transported for any real injuries that occurred before the killing. Whatever injuries that he had were superficial and not deemed worthy of medical attention at a hospital or other medical facility by medical technicians at the scene.

[RZM]

18. My view of what happened hasn't changed since the very beginning

I believe that a physical confrontation occurred and that during course of this altercation Zimmerman produced his gun and shot Trayvon. I don't know whether that constitutes murder/manslaughter or what.

[ZombieHorde]

20. Between the police's poor job investagating the scene, and the media sensationalizing the story,

I personally think withholding judgement is wise. This story has seemed weird to me since the beginning, and it continues to seem weird to me.

[Iggo]

21. Nope.

[Lugnut]

22. No.

Right from the beginning of the situation that unfolded Zimmerman was wrong. He was told to not pursue Trayvon and he did anyway. I'm not buying the day after medical report either.

[uponit7771]

23. ****THE REPORT IS FALSE, NO INJURIES TO KNUCKES IT WAS SMALL CUT ON FINGER*****

I posed this on PJ and here...

http://www.politicaljack.com/forums/showthread.php?25251-Trayvon-Martin-shot-at-quot-intermediate-range-quot-had-small-abrasion-on-finger-below-Knuckl

[Solomon]

30. Unfortunately, that small cut on the finger is more than enough to

convict Trayvon.

[uponit7771]

34. Yeap, some will look for any reason to justify ZMans actions

[dwilso40641]

25. No

[brooklynite]

26. His injuries aren't the relevant point...

Zimmerman confronted an innocent man with no authority to do so. Thanks to the Florida Legislature, Treyvon Martin had every right to stand HIS ground.

[uponit7771]

27. +1

[renate]

91. exactly! I don't see that point made often enough

Is it disputed that Zimmerman was following Martin? (I don't think so, since both Trayvon's girlfriend and the EMS operator knew this.)

So even if Zimmerman was hurt at the scene--which I'm not particularly inclined to believe since Zimmerman strikes me as a coward who was just trying to cover his tracks--Trayvon had every right to stand his ground when he was approached by a stranger with a gun and defend himself however he needed to.

Zimmerman's injuries are just a distraction.

[Chemisse]

105. That is so true.

All the rest is just being released to muddy the waters; I hope it is all inadmissible in court.

[deutsey]

28. No. My opinion is that Zimmerman never should've left his car

Other than a fatal gunshot to Trayvon's chest, I don't know what happened during the confrontation.

However, the fatal gunshot probably wouldn't have happened if Zimmerman had remained in his car until the police arrived.

[mac56]

32. Especially since the police dispatcher told him to back off and stand down.

[uponit7771]

43. +1

[dkf]

31. I still don't know enough to come to any conclusion.

I want to know what the ballistics tell us about who was where when the shot was fired.

On the other hand I am not sure what could convince me beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not in fear of his life when he fired the gun.

[cthulu2016]

33. **Reasonable** fear of his life

This is not, in the law, a state of mind determination, it is a reasonability determination.

The legal standard is whether a hypothetical "reasonable person" would have been in fear of his life in the same circumstances.

[HangOnKids]

45. Strange You say You Don't Know Enough To Come To A Conclusion

Then conclude, "I am not sure what could convince me beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not in fear of his life when he fired the gun." It is obvious you have made up your mind but you just don't have the guts to say it.

[metalbot]

63. I don't read it that way at all

We're supposed to assume that people are innocent until they are proven guilty. That's the way our legal system works.

Shouldn't we hold ourselves to the same standards? It isn't Zimmerman's job to prove himself innocent. It's someone else's job to prove that he's not.

[B2G]

66. We don't need no stinkin' legal system

[HangOnKids]

69. Wow Can You Paint My BackYard Fence With That Broad Brush?

Don't bother replying, I need to go organize my frozen vegetables in the freezer, and quite honestly that is way more interesting than chatting with you.

[B2G]

73. I wasn't chatting with you to begin with

But do have fun.

[HangOnKids]

67. Fine And Dandy

But that is NOT what the poster I replied to said. Read their post again. Carefully this time.

[treestar]

110. Self defense is an affirmative defense, though

Some states put a burden of prove on the defendant for that. It is established that Zimmerman killed Martin, and there does not seem to be any reasonable doubt about that - Zimmerman may admit it. The case then turns to the issue of self defense, where the defendant would have to prove by some standard that self defense applied. It wouldn't be the prosecution's duty to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that self defense does not apply.

[BronxBoy]

56. LOL.....N/T

[HangOnKids]

58. Bow Down To Pithy Greatness!

[noiretextatique]

61. and what, exactly was he afraid of: the hoodie? the skittles? or the skin color?

someone who is "afraid" doesn't follow a person and get out of his car to engage him. the "fear" excuse is only he is using because he knows it resonates with white americans who also have irrational "fears" of young, black men.

[frylock]

86. he was so scared he got out of his truck to pursue martin..

is that what you're saying? because if i'm in that much fear for my life, then i stay in my truck and wait for the police, as he was instructed to do.

[yardwork]

122. So if Trayvon had shot and killed Zimmerman, you would be ok with that too?

I mean, it's clear from the phone recordings that Trayvon was in fear of his life. By your reasoning, he would have been justified in shooting and killing Zimmerman, who was following him. Right?

[dkf]

131. If they had been fighting over the gun and he shot Zimmerman...

And If that falls into self defense or SYG then yes.

[yardwork]

135. What if there was no fighting over the gun? What if Trayvon had had a gun and shot Zimmerman?

Suppose everything had happened exactly the same way EXCEPT that Trayvon had had a gun too, and he pulled it out and shot Zimmerman because he felt threatened?

Wouldn't that be equally ok under SYG?

[dkf]

139. If Zimmerman was over Martin and pounding on him then yes I would consider

Self defense or SYG. Why wouldn't I?

[yardwork]

140. That's not what I'm saying. I'm asking you to reverse the people and keep everything else the same.

Upthread you said that you are convinced that Zimmerman was in fear of his life. Don't you think that Trayvon was also in fear of his life? Zimmerman was following him. Zimmerman admits that in his own 911 call.

SYG says to me that Trayvon would have been justified in turning around and shooting Zimmerman just because he felt threatened. Isn't that what you're saying about Zimmerman - that he was justified in shooting Trayvon just because he felt threatened?

[dkf]

143. If he felt threatened while being beaten up then yes.

Or if Zimmerman had pulled the gun on him.

[yardwork]

144. What if he was not being beaten up and didn't have a gun pulled on him? Still ok?

[dkf]

158. He had to have been reasonably in fear of his life.

Give me a scenario that qualifies and I could say yes.

But being followed doesn't qualify.

[yardwork]

166. If being followed doesn't qualify, then how was Zimmerman in fear of his life?

[Travelman]

168. At least according to his story it's because he was getting his head bashed in

That's a bit different from being followed.


Assuming that his story is correct, of course, but just standing in his shoes for a moment, this seems to be his basis for his claim of self defense.

[yardwork]

170. But you stated that you were certain that Zimmerman was in fear of his life.

Now you're saying, "assuming his story is correct" - which many witnesses dispute.

So are you saying that if it is shown that Zimmerman in fact was not getting his head bashed in, you would no longer feel that he was in fear of his life?

[Travelman]

174. I did?

Where did I say that? I don't seem to find any of my posts that say any such thing.

[Skip Intro]

134. Neither do I.

Lot of conjecture all over the place, but I've seen nothing that disproves Zimmerman's claim that Martin attacked him physically - threw the first punch. I've seen nothing that disproves Zimmerman's claim that Martin was on top of him, slamming his head into the concrete. I've seen nothing to disprove Zimmerman's claim that he was in fear for his life.

I simply have not seen enough proof, one way or the other, to conclude what really happened that night. This has been my position from the beginning. I simply don't know. (Neither does anyone else on this board, but that doesn't mean you won't be slammed for saying it).

[Vattel]

151. That sums up my point of view as well. Nicely said.

[fascisthunter]

150. to the right.... to the right....

every time

[jp11]

38. No.

I doubt we'll ever know the truth of what Trayvon saw/thought and what George said/did when he confronted Trayvon.

If some stranger said something racist/derogatory to me and I had seen him following me or I saw a gun I might not 'roll the dice' and see if all he wanted was to rob or beat me. I *might* try charging him before he could draw that gun. I'm not saying that is what happened I'm saying I don't know. I wouldn't blame Trayvon in the least if he 'attacked' this person who followed him and could have been a skin head, gang member, robber, murderer, etc.

I don't know what happened or under what circumstances but you don't get to stalk someone, confront them and kill them then go home without doing time. George had no business stalking that young man or confronting him let alone shooting him AFTER he got in Trayvon's face. IF he had left the young man alone Trayvon would be alive and George could go on being a timebomb waiting to go off in some other person's face ignoring the police, stalking people and carrying a gun while on 'neighborhood watch' neither staying in his neighborhood or just watching.

[blm]

41. What we DO know is that Trayvon was scared of the adult stranger that had been following him and

said so to his girlfriend right before Zimmerman approached him.

[Solomon]

93. That's what gets me. We know what both states of mind were before the crap went

down. But apparently a lot of folk are in denial. Don't want to admit that. They say things like, "there's no tape recording of the conversation between the girl and Trayvon", as though her testimony is not evidence. I think it's pretty clera from the police tape what Zimmerman's frame of mind was. Somehow, in between Trayvon being afraid and trying to get away, he decided to turn around and stalk Zimmerman. Really boggles the mind.

[Lilyeye]

115. Exactly.

[blm]

39. No. I say a gun shouldn't end a fight - especially a fight where a teen was standing his ground

against the adult stranger who had been following him. The teen had only his fists. The adult stranger who approached him had the responsibility to act like a responsible adult, a responsible neighborhood watch person, and a responsible gun owner.

BTW - who teaches their child to ACCEPT whatever an adult stranger has in mind for them? Who teaches their child that if they try and fight off an adult stranger then that adult has every right to shoot you and even that they deserve to be shot?

[NoPasaran]

40. Not at all

I haven't seen the evidence that will be introduced in court, to tell the truth I haven't been following the case all that closely. All I'm really sure of is that none of this would have happened had George Zimmerman followed the instructions of the police and not confronted Trayvon Martin.

[sinkingfeeling]

42. Not at all. Confirms what I've thought. It will be interesting to see if

there is any collaborating witnesses to the family doctor's report.

[GreenStormCloud]

60. Yes. An eyewitness was on TV the very next day after the shooting.

The witness lived directly across the street and said that Zimmerman was on his back getting beaten. The witness went inside to phone 911, heard a shot, and saw the guy who had been on top was now on the ground.

I don't have the link handy. I will try to find it and post it.

[noiretextatique]

64. and another witness disputes that wtinesses' claims

the white, female neighbor who the police pretty much ignored until she went to the media. and then there is the latina neighborhood who backups up this witness.

[GreenStormCloud]

90. Here is the link:

[Hassin Bin Sober]

157. Wow. I hadn't seen that. Martin was on top beating Zimmerman?

That's a whole different story.

[noiretextatique]

65. my nose is broken, but i don't seek medical attention

i go to the "family doctor" after the incident, not to the emergency room. not...at....all...credible.

[cthulu2016]

72. WTF?

The average broken nose receives no treatment at all, let alone in a hospital.

[noiretextatique]

80. then why bring it up? i guess he's using it as an excuse for murder

and "proof" that it was justifiable because he was "injured" is right. if the injury was so minor...then is it even an issue?

[pscot]

46. Yes

The water has gotten a lot muddier. I doubt that a jury will convict Zimmerman of murder. I was all for hanging him. I'm a little less certain now.

[vaberella]

87. Why? The autopsy shows the boy has a cut on his finger.

His ring finger and it wasn't even a cut. It was an abrasion. How in the hell does that coincide with a punch to the face and slamming of head onto cement. Please, tell me, how muddied the waters are?

[pscot]

146. You need 12 jurors to agree it was murder

Muddy water = reasonable doubt. In the hands of a good lawyer, that = acquital. I'll be surprised if he's convicted of murder. They may try to plea bargain.

[Ganja Ninja]

48. No.

Just because there was a fight doesn't prove Zimmerman acted in self defense or that deadly force was necessary.

[barbtries]

49. no.

in my opinion Trayvon Martin was murdered. so far, it looks as if the prosecutor agrees with me, except in a matter of degree.

[Courtesy Flush]

50. The 911 call indicates Zimmerman brought the fight to Trayvon.

Zimmerman was at a safe distance, chose to confront Martin, was advised against it by police, and proceded anyway.

He started a fight, and the new information hints that he may have been losing that fight, and used a gun. Not self defense.

[ieoeja]

51. No. I always believed that Trayvon hit him, and that Zimmerman was still a murderer.

We know from Zimmerman's MySpace postings that he is a former gangster who was involved in violent activities and that he conspired with his fellow gangsters to have his activities covered up.

We know that he attacked a police officer, and that his father the Judge was able to cover that up.

We know that Zimmerman was fired as a bouncer for being too violent.

We know that Trayvon was minding his own business before Zimmerman initiated the encounter.

The fact that he boasted about previous coverups, that his father was even able to coverup his beating of a police officer, anything that comes out now to show him in a good light better have some ironclad dating to it. Otherwise any rational person would have to dismiss it out of hand.

And even if you accept that everything happened exactly as he described it, he has yet to explain how he killed a man in self defense a hundred yards from where he and all his witnesses claim the fight happened. By his words alone he got his ass kicked then hunted Trayvon down and shot him. That is murder.

[Lilyeye]

118. Where can I see those myspace postings?

I've seen Trayvon's postings, but I haven't seen Zimmerman's stuff. I ask because people are always bring up Trayvon's past, but ignore Zimmerman.

[jwirr]

52. No

[Meiko]

54. I have my own opinions

like everyone else but I want to see the trail and have a chance to hear the evidence. Let the system do it's job.

[HangOnKids]

59. The Trail Of What?

Breadcrumbs?

[marlakay]

55. Pictures don't lie

And he walked one hour after into police station like nothing was wrong with him, nose looked fine, head etc.

And if I was on jury, the fact Zimmerman was told to stop following him and he still did, I would charge him. Not sure with what level, but I definitely would charge him.

If he had listened to that 911 operator Trayvon would still be alive and that a fact!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

57. No. Zimmerman's story still makes no sense to me.

Fact is, Zimmerman got out of the car, which is suspect in its own right especially since he had been expressly advised not to. We would then have to believe that an unarmed Trayvon went up to Zimmerman and started wailing on him randomly and out of the blue, and then and only then did Zimmerman "stand his ground", pull out his gun and shoot Trayvon dead.

Why would Trayvon randomly go up to a stranger randomly and start attacking him? It belies logic. We're talking about a 17 year old kid with no criminal record, nothing worse than a school suspension to his name, and a strong family system. It makes zero sense.

I don't know what happened. I wasn't there that fateful night. But unless one is mentally disturbed, they don't go up to random strangers and attack them out of the blue.

[noiretextatique]

62. the bastard is guilty as sin

but i doubt he will be convicted in the "justus" system. even some "liberals" are buying his "i was scared of the black boogeyman" bullshit "defense."

[coalition_unwilling]

68. The autopsy report has not changed my view much, which is that

I'm withholding judgment until the evidence is presented and testimony given and cross-x'ed.

[bowens43]

70. he was carrying a gun

he used it to kill someone. that IMO is premeditated murder. period.

[MineralMan]

71. My opinion is really irrelevant.

I'm waiting for the jury's decision. I have only second-hand information and that is limited.

[RebelOne]

74. No, I still think the shooting was unjustified. n/t

[99Forever]

75. Not in the least.

It's perfectly clear who initiated the deadly confrontation and it wasn't the person going about his LEGAL business armed with a package of Skittles and a can of tea.

[obamanut2012]

76. Confirmed my thoughts -- only two wounds on Travyon

The GSW to his chest, and a 1/6-1/4" abrasion to his left ring finger. That's it. Doesn't sound like someone who punched the hell out of someone. Boxers and MMA fighters wrap their hands and wear gloves for a reason.

[Life Long Dem]

79. I'll wait for the prosecutions case and the evidence they offer.

And I'll read the reports myself. I know how the media can spin things.

[alp227]

81. NYT just had an article deterring missteps by the police in investigating the case

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101628526

[WI_DEM]

82. No!! What the hell was Zimmerman doing harrassing somebody who was just walking

in his posh neighborhood? He (Zimmerman) brought this on by confronting Trayvon and Trayvon held his ground. I don't think any of the reports are conclusive that I've seen and prove anything. All I know is an unarmed kid is dead.

[frylock]

84. nope

[mwooldri]

85. Yes. It's cemented it.

Basically Zimmerman is in the wrong. He needs locking up.

[JI7]

88. i haven't heard of any new info that changes anything. Zimmerman is still a murdering thug

[NCTraveler]

89. I have no clue if he is guilty or not.

Morally bankrupt.....absolutley. There is still more to come. Many were certain that he was shot in the back due to.....well pretty much nothing but their own imagination. Now others do not believe a doctor. A doctor with no reason to lie. At least no reason has been shown. As I said, there is more to come. Laws don't always fall in line with morals.

[MissMarple]

92. No.

[Butterbean]

95. Uh, no. The kid was defending himself from a guy who was stalking him.

[lunatica]

96. No. One had a gun and followed the other until one of them was dead

The other was pretty much minding his own business on his way home and threatened no one.

[Starry Messenger]

97. No.

His guilt starts for me when he gets out of his car to follow Trayvon. If he hadn't been trying to play Junior G-man, none of this would have occurred. Who follows someone holding a gun, that they don't even know??? Even if you did know them or recognize them, WTF would you be doing??? This isn't the action of a normal, innocent person, it's someone with a sick fantasy life and no sense of consequences.

[Chemisse]

98. No. He was stalked.

He may have fought back or the doctor report may be bogus, but either way, Zimmerman had no right to kill the young man, even under the Florida self-defense law. You can't stalk someone then cry self-defense when the victim defends HIMself.

And who the heck cares if he was high on pot? Last I heard, being high was not punishable by death, and it certainly does not make him more likely to be violent - quite the contrary!

[lynne]

100. I have never been sure of his guilt or innocence -

- so my answer is NO. I'm still not sure. This has been tried in the media and in forums, initially without a shred of evidence one way or the other. My life experience tells me that things are not always what they initially seem and every bit of information that has come forth seems to verify that.

I'm willing to wait for the trial and just hope that there can be a fair one given that the media has already tried this case.

[RedSpartan]

102. No, it only strenthens my view of what I think happened.

Last edited Thu May 17, 2012, 06:48 PM - Edit history (1)

Zimmerman stalked a young kid because he was black.

Travon felt threatened by the man stalking him for no reason. He tried to briskly get away. Zimmerman gave chase.

Travon stood his ground and defended himself from the stalker.

Zimmerman retaliated with deadly force.

The irony here, I think, is that BOTH men felt threatened and BOTH men "stood their ground." But it was Travon who did so first.

In the end, it is Zimmerman who, against the orders of the emergency responders, caused the situtation that led to Travon's death. For that he is, at the absolute least, morally culpable.

[opihimoimoi]

107. No....How can Zimmer plead SYG defense when clearly heard just before the shot "HELP ME"

Twas Trevon asking for HELP.....

That Zimmer guy is not foolin me

[lynne]

112. Treyvon's father said voice on tape calling for help was not his son -

- according to recent ABC news report. Link below. 3rd paragraph.

The report states that documents indicate it was Zimmerman who can be heard calling for help 14 times on the recording.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-documents-released-shooting-george-zimmerman/story?id=16371852#.T7WCpEVikf7

[yardwork]

119. No it doesn't. Read the 4th paragraph where Trayvon's father says that he recognized his son's voice

But Tracy Martin, Trayvon's father, claims that is not true. The Martin family lawyer Ben Crump told ABC News that Tracy Martin initially listened to a distorted version of the 911 calls and said he could not identify the voice. But when he listened to a second tape that had been "cleaned," "He immediately broke down in tears because he knew it was his son calling for help," Crump said.

[lynne]

123. Thank you, I see that now -

- that must be an update to the article as that's a huge paragraph and I sure don't think I would have missed it.

[yardwork]

128. That information has been published in news reports for months now.

Trayvon's father recognized his son's voice.

[Kingofalldems]

106. If he had carried mace instead of a gun.....

That kid would be alive.

[slackmaster]

108. I suspect Zimmerman would have ended up with a can of Mace up his ass

You never know what a stoned person is going to do.

[Kingofalldems]

164. Makes no sense

Who says he was stoned? Ever been maced?

[CokeMachine]

111. Nope -- I'll wait for all of the evidence and then make up my mind. nt

[Nevernose]

113. Those details seem irrelevant to me

Those details seem largely irrelevant to me. The important details seem to be that a grown man followed a child in his car, and when that child ran away, he got his gun, got out of the car, and chased him. That's what makes it murder.

[madokie]

114. Yup I think he's more guilty now than I did and I always thought he was guilty

Trying too hard to change history to be innocent if you ask me.

[appleannie1]

116. No. Trayvon had as much right to defend himself as Zimmy claims to have.

[kudzu22]

117. I'm leaning toward the belief that Zimmerman will walk

By no means do I think Martin deserved to die, but I think Zimmerman's defense has enough evidence to present a case for self-defense. The prosecution would have to have evidence that Zimmerman started the fight, and I don't think they have that. Just following the guy won't be good enough to count for "initiating the conflict". They'd have to establish that he brandished the weapon or threw the first punch, and I don't think they have that.

Any eyewitnesses could, of course, change all of that. So my official opinion remains in limbo pending release of all the evidence at trial.

[yardwork]

120. No. I am certain that Zimmerman stalked and killed a young man because of racial profiling.

[Throd]

121. No. I still have no idea what really happened that night.

[Cleita]

124. Nope. I still believe Trayvon is the victim here and any post-mortem attempts

to smear him doesn't change that. And it will be up to judge and jury to determine guilt here, not us.

[underpants]

125. Not sure of guilt but the whole issue was with how the police handled it

AND it exposed an severely divided community

[mulsh]

126. what autopsy? all I've seen so far is third person PR.

if any one has a PDF of the autoposy please post a link.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

127. I got fucking PISSED when MSNBC posted that on Facebook last night

My reply indicated that.

[bigwillq]

129. No

I believe he should still be convicted of killing Trayvon Martin.
He was told not to pursue Martin. He didn't listen and killed a young man. He deserves to go to jail to pay for his crime.

[-..__...]

130. No... because from the start, I never had an opinion on his guilt or innocence.

However... based on what's been released so far (by the courts), seems to back-up his account of the events.

I'll still withhold any opinion of guilt or innocence until all the testimony/facts/evidence are released.

[mvd]

133. I still think Zimmerman was the aggressor and should be..

held accountable in Trayvon's death. Just what he is guilty of will be determined at the trial.

[tokenlib]

136. No! Zimmerman was the instigator and aggressor..

That is the critical issue. What happened after Zimmerman started "stalking" and following is of no consequence. I dont care if Treyvon pissed in Zimmerman's face--Zimmerman stuck his neck out after being told not to.

[TBF]

137. No - white adult male stalks kid

who knows who threw the first punch? As far as I'm concerned the kid had a right to defend himself. Zimmerman stalked and killed an unarmed black child.

[Zax2me]

145. I think his mom is Hispanic.

[TBF]

156. And that negates an adult stalking a child and murdering him? OK .....

[Baitball Blogger]

138. No. Zimmerman was in predatory mode from the moment he began following Trayvon in his SUV.

[grok]

141. If one switches around genders and races maybe it's clearer

lets say both were female. one was young and strong. one was older and long out of high school and out of shape. the latter is black, chubby and a "security guard" for the HOA.

say the security guard followed a young "suspicious" white girl. is following a crime? is nosin around a crime? probably neither.

the black security guard shoots the white young girl after being thrown on the ground and seriously bruised.

now decide.

[Daalalou]

148. I'll bite

But I have to revise it first to include the known facts (many of which you left out):

lets say both were female. one was young and strong. The other was older, but still pretty young, only a decade out of high school and had lost a lot of weight in the last several years and appeared to have started working out. the latter is black, physically fit and a "self-appointed neighborhood watchperson" for the HOA. The two are probably closely matched physically, with the younger one a few inches taller, but the older one about 25-50 lbs heavier. (Note: autopsy reports Trayvon at 71 inches, which is 5'11", NOT 6'2, and 153 lbs; reports on Zimmerman have his height at 5'8" or 5'9", and weight between 180 and 200).

say the security guard followed a young "suspicious" white girl, in violation of neighborhood watch procedures and against advice of the 911 dispatcher. Not a crime, but against advice of two entities versed in legal procedure.

the black "self-appointed neighborhood watchperson" shoots the white young girl after a scuffle occurs between them; no witnesses saw how it began so who initiated the confrontation is unclear. At one point the black "self-appointed neighborhood watchperson" is on the ground with the younger woman on top, according to at least one witness. After the shooting, the black woman is bleeding from the nose and back of the head, but EMT's determine that the wounds are minor and the woman refuses to go to the hospital. While she claims that the younger woman punched her and repeatedly bashed her head against the sidewalk, her own injuries don't seem serious enough to support that claim, raising suspicion among police investigators. In addition, the white woman has a 1/4" abrasion on her left ring finger as her only injury besides the gunshot wound, which is contrary to the quantity and types of hand wounds someone usually sustains when they are punching and bashing someone.

======================================

After all that? I'd find the black woman's story pretty suspicious.

[grok]

155. That sound's about right.

Can't quibble with anything you say though I would add one appears to have successfully initiated physical contact and the other successfully concluded it. Unlikely that both were the same otherwise all injuries would most likely been have been one sided.

Suspicion seems sensible and is unlikely to ever be resolved unless someone confesses.

[Dawson Leery]

142. No. Mr. Martin had every right to defend himself from Zimmerman.

George Zimmerman had no right to go after Trayvon Martin.

[Zax2me]

147. Guess the pictures of injuries were doctored.

and the witnesses, cops and doctors are in some sort of....racist conspiracy.
Damn it all! Grr!

[uponit7771]

153. No bruises consistant with fight on Martins fist and you STILL want to defend ZMan?

TIA

[belcffub]

163. a little info on bruising

Bruising on the skin occurs when the blood vessels are broken by some form of hard and forceful contact with the skin, usually by a blunt object. The shape of the bruise can often reveal which direction the blow was received from and the colour of the bruise can indicate how long ago the injury occurred. As bruising heals, it goes red-purple, to brown, to green and finally to yellow. Bruising is not an accurate way of deciding how the victim met their fate, as interpreting bruising is different in every person, due to the fact that people bruise at different rates and bruising continues for a short while after death. Strangulation around the neck also leaves significant bruising. The hands, cords and ropes usually leave a distinct mark around the neck in the shape of the pattern on the strangling agent. If the strangling agent is very soft material, it may leave little or no marks, but the dissection of the neck area is able to show tissue bruising beneath the skin.

[noiretextatique]

162. how do explain the pictures taken at the police station

which do not support the supposed "injuries" zimmerman claimed later?

[felix_numinous]

149. There is no way this story can be

Last edited Thu May 17, 2012, 10:02 PM - Edit history (1)

twisted around to make it right for a guy to shoot and kill a 17 year old unarmed kid.

I wasn't there--but stalking a kid and wanting to verify having to kill him because he defended himself is still wrong--even if he was smoking a joint right there, even if he was a Bruce Lee.

[alarimer]

152. Nope. A kid is still dead.

And there is no doubt on earth that Zimmerman did it.

[MurrayDelph]

165. Nope. The additional information is all chaff

when I sat on a jury trial for a murder case, the argument of "self-defense" was attempted, but then as now, the ultimate question was:

Did the defendant have the opportunity to avoid the confrontation?

In both that case and this one, the defendant CAUSED the confrontation, which meant that he willfully caused the death.


The difference between the cases seem to come down to:

1. The trial I sat in on was in California, not Florida

2. We were lucky-enough to have a jury of people willing to look at the actual facts of the case and not the smoke being blown.

[Quixote1818]

167. No Zimmerman ran after Martin. Martin was probabbly scared out of his mind. nt

[virginia mountainman]

169. Yes... it has ....No way will he be convicted of 2nd Degree Murder...

Reading the reports, witness statements and such. The initial investigators where correct, the crime he should have been charged with is MANSLAUGHTER. What Zimmerman did, is a perfect fit for that crime, NOT Murder...

In short, I will tell you what I believe happened that night.... Two IDIOTS met in the dark. Zimmerman, was out "acting like a cop, and tried to stop a criminal, in his eyes" and Martin, decided to "Woop his ass".... And idiots being idiots escalation ensued, until Zimmerman who was getting his ass soundly kicked made a very bad decision, and shot his attacker.

Zimmerman cannot claim self defense, because his hands are NOT clean, he perused and verbally accosted Martin, than Martin attacked Zimmerman. But it is not Murder, by a long shot. And because of double jeopardy, Once he beats the Murder rap, it will be OVER....

I don't think Zimmerman set out to shoot anyone, but panicked when he was getting his ass kicked. But still he was part of the problem, so he will not get protection under Stand Your Ground....After all your not standing it, when your perusing and yelling at someone.

Zimmerman was an idiot, for being a hyper aggressive "neighborhood watch Capt" out confronting people instead of being a good witness and calling the cops. And Martin, was an idiot for deciding to start throwing punches at some dumbass loud mouth in a dark street.

My very REAL concern now is, that so much inflammatory and flat out WRONG things has been reported in the press that we are seeing completely Innocent people attacked and severely beaten in the name of Trayvon Martin. What about those people, whos only crime will be simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time?? It is already happening now, even here in Virginia, a few weeks ago, a large group of people attacked some reporters from the Virginia Pilot Newspaper, and "Do it for Trayvon" seemed to be the battle cry... How about when Zimmerman is ACQUITTED of the crime he is charged with?

I think MSM should be held accountable when Innocent people are killed because of their slanted reporting of this whole issue.

How many people will die, or be beaten because of their misleading reporting?

[arely staircase]

171. what, that he smoked some pot in the past thirty days and seems to have stood his ground

as per florida law - nope, not a bit.

[Riley18]

172. No

[magical thyme]

173. no.

Zimmerman chased Martin and ran him down.

Martin had every right to stand his ground and defend himself. He did not use lethal or even excessive force.

Zimmerman did not need lethal force to stand his ground and defend himself:
He could have stayed in his vehicle.
He could have followed Martin to see where he was headed, but kept a safe distance back.
When Martin asked him why he was following him, he could have identified himself as the neighborhood watch captain and nicely asked Martin where he was headed, in a non-threatening manner.
When Martin was clearly winning the ensuing fight, he could have stopped yelling for help and instead yelled that he had a gun.
He could have pulled out the gun and aimed, but left the safety on and not pulled the trigger.
If he still needed to shoot, he was at point blank range. He did not have to shoot Martin in the heart.

When the police tried to file manslaughter charges, they stated unequivocally that Zimmerman could have avoided killing Martin by either staying in his vehicle or by politely identifying himself.

Nothing in the evidence contradicts the above points.

[TorchTheWitch]

176. Not at all

Zimmerman still chased after Trayvon and confronted him. His getting some minor injuries in the process is his own damn fault and was already known from the beginning. You don't get to chase someone down, pick a fight with them and when they defend themselves from you, and when you find yourself getting mildly injured you don't get to kill the person and then claim self-defense. Zimmerman was the instigator, and the instigator doesn't get to hide behind self-defense when they kill the object of their instigation. It was solely Zimmerman's threatening actions that caused his own minor injuries and the death of an innocent and terrified kid. He has no legal or moral defense claim.

[crayfish]

178. No. I still think his guilt should and will be decided by a jury.

...