FU, GZ..."Court docs: Trayvon Martin shooting 'ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman'"

[Amerigo Vespucci]

Court docs: Trayvon Martin shooting 'ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman'

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/17/11748468-court-docs-trayvon-martin-shooting-ultimately-avoidable-by-zimmerman?lite



Prosecutors on Thursday made public a trove of evidence used to justify murder charges against Neighborhood Watch volunteer George Zimmerman, including a police report that concluded "the encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was [font color="red"]ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman[/font]."

The evidence – including 183 pages of documents, witness statements and other material – was released Thursday to news organizations and other requestors by special prosecutor Angela Corey’s office, who has charged the 28-year-old Zimmerman with second-degree murder in the killing of 17-year-old Martin on Feb. 26 in Sanford, Fla. Also included was a document explaining what material was withheld.

An initial review of the evidence, which was provided to Zimmerman’s attorney early this week, uncovers documentation that will be helpful to both prosecutors and the defense.

An autopsy by the Volusia County Medical Examiner on Martin's body found that the teenager was killed by a shot to the heart and that traces of THC -- or tetrahydrocannabinol, the active ingredient in marijuana -- were found in Martin's blood, though below the level that medical studies indicate would have caused "performance impairment."

[Lilyeye]

1. No shit! you morons! That was the entire point all along.

Here are some more pics of him

*had to remove since there was a virus in the link*

Like I said before, he doesn't look that bad for a guy who was getting beat up "MMA style" or for a guy who was one hit away from wearing diapers and being spoon fed for the rest of his life. I've seen minor fights with people walking away looking worse than that.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

3. I count three little pin pricks ON a prick.

Case closed. This lying fuck's life was hardly in danger.

[HiPointDem]

11. FYI: One of those links tried to download something on my computer + unload a popup that

told me my computer had viruses.

My virus scanner caught it: Rogue:JS/FakePAV

[doc03]

18. I got the same and the pop-up won't close out!!!! Going to re-boot

now and run my virus scan!!!

[Lilyeye]

42. I am so sorry! I got the links from a news site. I will remove them.

[kayakjohnny]

2. Wow!

That's all I got.

[underpants]

4. Following something with a gun in reach -- isn't that called "hunting"?

I have no problem with hunting (it keeps deer off the highways and prevents starvation in the herd) but not when it is a person (not on the highway and apparently hungry for a snack).

[belcffub]

5. so the pics show...

two black eyes.... a broken nose... and cuts to the back of his head...

which is what his side was saying all along...

could everything been avoided if he wasn't a moron and got of the car... yup...

but if you are getting beaten at what point do you get to use lethal force to stop the aggressor???

if a witness comes forward and says they saw zimmerman throw the first punch then he's guilty... otherwise not guilty...

[frylock]

6. so martin is not afforded the opportunity to stand his ground?

because that's what looks like may have happened, although i'm not entirely convinced that these injuries weren't self-induced.

[belcffub]

7. um... nope

you can't strike someone because they are following you... or being an asshole

if zimmerman threw the first punch... pushed him... did something then game on... until then no...

if they have a witness that saw zimmerman start the physical aggressions between the two... guilty... otherwise zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt... I just don't see it with what has been shown so far...

[ljm2002]

9. Good grief.

Trayvon Martin was walking in a neighborhood he had every right to be in, as he was staying there with his father at his father's girlfriend's house. He was not causing any trouble and was on his way home. Yet Zimmerman decided he did not belong there, based on the fact that he was a black young man in a hoodie (ooh, scary!). Then Zimmerman decided that he could ignore the advice of the 911 operator, and kept on pursuing Trayvon -- who, again, was doing nothing wrong at the time.

So this guy with a gun was following Trayvon, quite sure within his own mind that Trayvon was "suspicious" -- and that he was going to "get away" like "they all do". It is not yet clear what exactly happened, how exactly an altercation ensued. But it is very clear who the instigator of this tragic episode was, and that is George Zimmerman.

Only one person was armed, and it was not Trayvon Martin. Only one person initiated this tragic incident, and it was not Trayvon Martin.

Furthermore, although there is a hue and cry right now about all the injuries suffered by George Zimmerman -- black eyes, broken nose, cuts on the head -- when you look at the video of him at the police station that evening, there is absolutely no sign of that apart from a couple of very minor-looking scratches on the back of his head. And the reports on Trayvon's hands indicates very minor scratches -- hardly what you would expect if he had been beating the crap out of Zimmerman.

Well we will see what comes out at trial. But in spite of the obvious attempt right now to put Zimmerman's side of the story out there, there continue to be some very real questions about his version of events, IMO.

[fascisthunter]

16. but imagine the pride Zim would have had to swallow after a beat down

I guess a fist fight=death in Florida.

[belcffub]

26. do I really need to post all the fist fights that ended in death

how much of a beat down to I have to take before lethal force is warranted...

[dpibel]

37. No. What you need to post

is the ratio of fistfights to fistfights that ended in death.

See if you can produce that statistic. Because you're suggesting that, if anyone ever dies from blows from fists, then anyone who suffers a blow from a fist is entitled to use lethal force.

What you're suggesting is that one punch is a capital crime.

Can you see where some people might have a problem with that?

[belcffub]

44. I don't need to produce anything

check with law enforcement or a lawyer... if you start punching me and I thought I was in imminent danger of bodily harm I would be totally within my legal rights using a firearm to stop you from punching me... If I was watching you punch and kick someone else repeatedly I would be totally within my legal rights using a firearm to stop the assault....

heck in my home state of New York if I saw you in the commission of a felony I would in my legal rights to use a firearm to stop it... and it has been that way for decades...

[fascisthunter]

63. lol.... oh so now it's fear of dying from a fist fight

yuh... fucking ridiculous.

[arcane1]

19. You're wasting your time

Some people are obsessed with defending Zimmerman at all costs. It's as if the whole world hangs in the balance for them, and I honestly don't know why.

[belcffub]

27. this was my first post on this case...

I waited until it seemed like the preponderance of evidence pointed in one direction... when did you make up you mind...

[belcffub]

29. your post is a good story you should get it published...

but it is just that... you filled in the blanks... and made the narrative...

he instigated the interaction between the two... that does not mean he was the aggressor... just because I walk up to you and ask you what you are doing does not give you the right to attack me... I am not saying that happened... but it is as plausible as your narrative...

[ljm2002]

35. Whatever may have happened when push came to shove...

...one thing we know for certain is that Martin was on his way home, not bothering anyone, not breaking any laws, when Zimmerman tragically decided to ignore the suggestion of the 911 operator that he not follow Martin. Had he made that one choice differently, Martin would not have died that night. This was indeed a completely preventable tragedy. The man who could, and should, have prevented it was Zimmerman.

[belcffub]

36. I agree with you 100%

Zimmerman is an idiot... he could have prevented everything... we pay police to do this... and this should not have happened...

[magical thyme]

62. Zimmerman did not walk up to Martin and ask him what he was doing

He chased him. Martin was running for his life. That is legal assault right there.

He ran Martin down, and Martin only stopped running and "stood his ground" because he was too out of breath to keep running.


A witness saw the chase. Not just walking along, not even just following. Chasing. As in running after him.

A witness heard the beginning of the argument. One voice was domineering and argumentative -- and demanded to know "what are you doing here?" or something to that effect.

A witness (Martin's girlfriend) discussed with him his fear and his running away from a threat.

Do you know what assault and battery is? Assault is the threat of violence. When Zimmerman started chasing Martin, his actions threatened violence. Battery is when you actually start hitting.

Per wiki: Assault and battery is the combination of two violent crimes: assault (the threat of violence) and battery (physical violence).

Note that it does not specify a verbal threat of violence. Actions can threaten as well. And Martin's girlfriend's testimony makes it clear that Martin was afraid. He felt threatened, as any reasonable person would. He had a legal right to stand his ground and defend himself.

Aggression is not synonymous with punching. It does not boil down to who threw the first punch. It boils down to who assaulted who first. Zimmerman's actions of following in his car, and then chasing and running Martin down constituted a threat of violence. They constitute assault. Any reasonable person would have been afraid and felt threatened in such circumstances. Zimmerman assaulted Martin long before anybody punched anybody.

The only question is was Zimmerman afraid for his life? Was there some action he could take, short of killing Martin, to defend himself.

The initial police on the case said yes, he could have avoided killing Martin.
A reasonable person says yes, he could have avoided killing Martin. Nobody forced him to chase and threaten Martin. And once Martin stood his ground and defended himself from assault, Zimmerman still did not need to kill him to escape. At that point, instead of yelling for help he could have easily yelled I have a gun and pulled it out without shooting. All he had to do is pull it out and aim, but not unlock the safety and not pull the trigger. His gun takes almost 4 pounds of force to pull the trigger. He could have even unlocked the safety and not pulled the trigger.

[HiPointDem]

12. He killed the kid after stalking him. How is he innocent? His injuries are a joke. A little tiny

cut on his scalp. Maybe he scraped it with his own fingernail drawing his big, powerful gun.

[belcffub]

30. it was actually a small gun

that is a mouse gun... fits in your pocket...

[dpibel]

38. It appears

to have been able to actually kill things larger than a mouse.

[fascisthunter]

14. you don't know shit... you are making up a hypothetical to support Zim's murder

plain and simple

[belcffub]

34. lock him up or not... it doesn't really affect me

but it seems like everything his side was saying from the beginning... that everyone here was say was total BS... has atleast some truth behind it...

should he have stayed in his car... absolutely... there is no doubt... I can see no reason not to let people who are paid to take those types of risks take them...

but being told we "don't need you to do that" is not forbidding him from following... and once he did if trayvon threw the first punch he zimmerman was within his right to use lethal force to stop the attack... he will walk in the end...

oh and please point to the spot in the post you replied to where I was "making up a hypothetical to support Zim's murder"... i'll be waiting...

[frylock]

40. ffs he was stalking him

[True Earthling]

8. Since when is "on top and throwing punches 'MMA (mixed martial arts) style" standing your ground?

Zimmerman may have been following Trayvon but unless he threatened or attacked Trayvon there is no justification or excuse for Trayvon attacking Zimmerman. From what I've seen so far Zimmerman's version of events sounds credible and now there are witnesses and physical evidence that seem to back him up.

Two police officers reported that when they arrived at the scene of the shooting, Zimmerman seemed to have a battered nose and bloodied face. One wrote that his "facial area was bloodied," and the back of his clothing was soiled with wet grass.

"Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and the back of his head," Officer Ricardo Ayala wrote. Another officer wrote, "I saw that Zimmerman's face was bloodied and it appeared to me that his nose was broken." Witnesses, whose names were redacted from the report, also lent support to Zimmerman's version of what happened.

"He witnesses a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches 'MMA (mixed martial arts) style,'" the police report of the witness said. "He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass."

A second witness described a person on the ground with another straddling him and throwing punches. The man on the bottom was yelling for help, the witness told police. The documents state that Zimmerman can be heard yelling for help 14 times on a 911 call recorded during the fight.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-witnesses-back-george-zimmermans-version/story?id=16371852#.T7WOoutDyx0

[ljm2002]

10. Then again, there was the female witness...

...who said that in spite of her telling the cops that it was Trayvon calling for help, they kept telling her otherwise. In other words, they did not accept her eyewitness account.

For me, the crux of the issue is that Zimmerman could have avoided this whole thing, but he wanted to be a tough guy and stop one of "them" from "getting away" like "they always do". Even if he did get his nose punched, why is the assumption that Zimmerman was justified in "standing his ground" while Martin was not? It seems to me that the young man was doing nothing wrong when he was pursued by an overzealous thug.

Still, I am willing to wait for more facts to come out at trial. To tell the truth, this case would not have blown up at all IMO if the police had not been so quick to accept Zimmerman's word at face value and just shrug and act like hey, it's just a dead black kid, no big. Had they acted more respectfully, had they (for example) done drug tests on the KILLER and not just on the DEAD BLACK KID, then maybe people wouldn't be so up in arms about it.

[TBMASE]

15. Voice analysis has shown it was no trayvon

but Zimmerman calling for help

[ljm2002]

17. Really?

Can you provide a link? I know that has been floated, but I don't remember it being a solid fact. In fact, I seem to recall Trayvon's mother saying she recognized Trayvon's voice as the one calling for help.

We really will have to wait for the evidence as presented at trial. Way too much sound and fury right now, not enough actual factual information.

[ejpoeta]

21. the only thing i had heard was that the voice didn't seem to be

zimmermans. sounded like a younger person. but I don't think they could say definitively.

[Daalalou]

32. The voice experts ruled out Zimmerman.

They look at factors other than just "sounds like a younger person."

However, without a sample of Martin's voice, they couldn't definitively say it was Trayvon screaming.

Here's a link: http://www.mediaite.com/online/its-not-george-zimmerman-screaming-for-help-on-911-tape-audio-experts-tell-orlando-sentinel/

[ejpoeta]

47. actually now that I think about it I think it was either the neighbor who heard the screams

or someone else that made the claim about it sounding younger... not the expert.

[frylock]

57. the voice analysis showed that it was not zimmerman screaming

[arcane1]

20. Martin had every right to defend himself from an armed stalker

How hard is that to understand?

[belcffub]

31. absolutly

Last edited Fri May 18, 2012, 07:15 AM - Edit history (1)

if the armed stalker became aggressive...

now find someone who can show that zimmerman did that... and did not just confront him and ask him what he was doing there... or to tell martin to stay there and wait for the police...

if you can't then zimmerman walks

[dpibel]

39. Really now?

What right does Zimmerman have to order someone to stay there and wait for the police?

[belcffub]

45. none...

and martin would have been within his rights to turn away from zimmerman and walk away... if zimmerman pushed, grabbed, or forced martin to stay his defense goes out the window... now find someone that can prove that... otherwise being innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt he will walk...

[frylock]

41. only an idiot would "stay there and wait for the police" when ordered to by a complete stranger

[Blue_Roses]

52. There is someone....

Trayvon's girlfriend. She was on the phone with him when the phone went dead. She heard some shoving and rustling. I have no doubt Zimmerman pushed him, which set the whole thing in motion.

As for his two black eyes, it appears he has residual dark circles ...not from bruising...

[vaberella]

23. If he did do MMA style he would have far more than just a scratch one knuckle.

Which is what Trayvon Martin's forensics say. It says nothing about massive swollen knuckles on both hands with abrasions. Plus I would assume when grabbing someones head to smash on the pavement...you end up scratching a bit of your own hands too.

[True Earthling]

25. When one is shot dead in the heart - your circulation stops thus no swelling

Have you ever smashed someone's head into the pavement? I haven't either but I can imagine it could be done without abrasions to the hand.

[vaberella]

33. Actually...I have. I was in a fight with a boy when I was in middle school.

You get cuts. Or I did at least. But it wasn't like I grabbed his had and smashed it. I landed on top of him and went down. My palms and hands got scratched up and he got bruises on the back of his head. And from the description Zimmerman gave, I would have expected scratches on the pads of his fingers and on his hands.

[dionysus]

24. LOL, pro anti-weed propaganda, pro zimmerman.. you're not obvious AT ALLLLLLL

[True Earthling]

28. And I'm obviously what?

[LanternWaste]

60. Obvious.

"And I'm obviously what?"

Obvious.

[Lilyeye]

43. Bullshit! I saw the pics of Zimmerman taken at close range in the police department

No way he was beat up MMA style. He looked better than most people I've seen in fist fights. That pic in the OP makes him look much worse than the clear pics. I posted them, but had to remove since there was a pop-up giving people virus.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

49. Why would Trayvon just start wailing at Zimmerman out of the blue?

It makes no sense. None whatsoever.

Talk about the scuffle all you want, but unless Trayvon was some lunatic who liked to randomly attack strangers (which by all accounts is not the case) how on earth does Zimmerman's versions of events sound credible?

[True Earthling]

51. Maybe he didn't like being followed.

Maybe he asked Zimmerman why he was following him and didn't like Zimmerman's answer. If Zimmerman said "I'm following you because you look like a punk who doesn't belong in this neighborhood" - that might have set Trayvon off.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

53. If that was the case....

....I think the more natural reaction of the reasonable human being would try to evade the situation. Let's not forget he was only about 150 feet from home at the point.

But even if his reaction was to fight back to such a remark, it's probably reasonable such a reaction might be because a strange man has approached you and told you that you don't belong and that could be viewed as a threat of violence by Zimmerman, which could be met by reasonably percieved non deadly force (i.e. using one's fists). Even to this point and let's assume Trayvon did throw the first punch as a reaction to a percieved threat, before this was there any indication of a threat from Trayvon that Zimmerman could reasonably draw other than he was a young black male wearing a hoodie?

[frylock]

56. if memory serves, MMA guy peeked briefly out the window..

got scared, and ran upstairs when the shot was fired. so how much did he really see? then you have the kid walking his dog whose mom states that he was coached by the police to state that martin was on top. then there's the female witness that stated that police encouraged her to say it was martin on top when she believes it was martin that was screaming. on top of that, martin's single slight injury to his knuckle doesn't exactly comport with the MMA narrative.

[frylock]

64. MMA witness has recanted..

oh. dear.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-george-zimmerman-key-witnesses-20120522,0,3635603.story?track=rss

[lunatica]

46. Well you sewed that up quite nicely. I guess stalking Trayvon and chasing him down

constitute innocents because the kid used his fists in an aggressive manner while the man was holding a gun. I see your logic.

[belcffub]

55. show me anyone who saw

zimmerman with the gun holding it before the altercation... if that has been released I have not read it anywhere...

trust me I want zimmerman to be guilty... but the evidence that has been released just doesn't support it... he should have stayed in the car... he's a moron... but if martin became violent first the zimmerman had the right to protect himself

[lunatica]

61. And if Zimmerman showed his gun, just showed it, then Trayvon had the right to defend himself

[belcffub]

65. agreed...

now show me some evidence that he did...

[fascisthunter]

13. "Zim, when we take this picture, look Verrry concerned"

Fuck you, fuck the pro-gun carrying nut cases, and the NRA.

[Tejas]

48. "Fuck you, fuck the pro-gun carrying "

Thank you for letting us know how you feel about fellow members who are gun owners.

Funny how you're a "hunter of Fascists", but just like Fascists, you also hate a gun-owning populace.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

50. You know, the Nazis had pieces of flair they made the Jews wear.

[fascisthunter]

54. I don't have a problem with gun owners, just those who want to carry them everywhere

so they can be judge and jury as well as executioner. It's called being against stupid people. And those who like to carry guns are usually fascist in nature because weapons make them feel superior. Carrying guns is for cowardly bullies.

So no, this isn't about ALL gun owners to suit your pathetic attempt at making a point.

[Tejas]

58. well that's the most ignorant excuse I've seen this week

"And those who like to carry guns are usually fascist in nature because weapons make them feel superior."


I carry due to the increasing number of lazy pathetic criminals, er, excuse me, "cowardly bullies" that want to harm me and my loved ones. Enjoy your bitchfest deriding gunowners but at the same time coddling the criminals, maybe some day you'll hate worthless gun-toting criminals just as much.

[vaberella]

22. Who's that dude in that BW picture?...looks like Uncle Festes. n/t

[Tejas]

59. Fester, it's Fester! Now off to the dungeon with you! n/t