The prosecutor charged Zimmerman with Second Degree Murder

[cthulu2016]

The prosecutor reviewed all the evidence available to her and charged Zimmerman with second degree murder. She has a much clearer picture of the entirety of the evidence than I do so I accept that there is a theory of the case where the evidence is consistent with second degree murder.

Second degree is a big charge. Even if Zimmerman were charged with first degree murder he would not be likely to receive the death penalty so there's not much difference between first and second degree. I believe you can get life in prison without parole for second degree murder.

Personally, I am content with the charge and the evidence without having to make up evidence, disregard evidence, make up laws or disregard laws. I took the time to really study the Florida SYG statute, out of curiosity. It offers no obvious defense for Zimmerman. Much of the physical evidence is consistent with Zimmerman's story, but that is typical. When someone makes up a story it is usually crafted to fit the facts as well as possible.

There is no case where all evidence is damning or where all evidence is exculpatory. The prosecutor did not find that the balance of the evidence in support of Zimmerman's story was sufficient. We know this because she charged him with second degree murder.

On the other hand, we know there are some things the prosecutor is not likely to do. For instance, she will not claim that there was no altercation. She will not be introducing security camera footage for the purpose of saying that Zimmerman was uninjured because security camera footage really sucks and there are photographs of the same injuries taken before the security camera footage and after the security camera footage.

It would be utterly absurd for the prosecution to claim there were no injuries. Whatever injuries there are, however, do not fatally contradict a theory of second degree murder, in the prosecution's view. We know this because Zimmerman was charged with second degree murder.

Rather than getting fanciful with the thing, I accept that the evidence is whatever the evidence is and that the evidence does not need to be eliminated or wished away because it is not facially exculpatory. None of the evidence, even if it contradicts what somebody assumed or theorized on the internet, negates a theory of second degree murder

And we know the evidence is not facially exculpatory because Zimmerman was charged with second degree murder.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

1. So you don't not think a prosecutor ever over charges?

Lawyers of all political stripes described the charging document as weak and questionable.

The evidence that was most recently released IMO considerably helps a defense of justification and negates any hope of a 2nd degree murder conviction. At this point I see a manslaughter conviction at best, more likely a hung jury. There is no doubt that Zimmerman morally own the death of Martin but I was more confident about a conviction previously.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. The case has become more of a Rohrschach test than anything else.

[cthulu2016]

4. Overcharging is commonplace

That is why I kept referring to a theory of the case. I am comfortable that nothing in the evidence is a slam-dunk negation of a theory of second degree murder.

That doesn't mean the prosecutor has a rock solid case for second degree. But there is a baseline representation to the court that you intend to prove the elements of a crime with some good-faith reasonable expectation of success. So she has an argument to make, even after seeing all the evidence we have and much more.

If there was a piece of evidence that just blew second degree out of the water we wouldn't see the charge made... particularly in what is, for her, now such a high profile and scrutinized case.

That is why I do not understand the vogue of denouncing all evidence that could be helpful to Zimmerman in any way as obviously false.

None of it, however helpful to Zimmerman it is or is not, is a slam-dunk demonstration of innocence.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. While there is obviously much more to come a couple of the witness statements

IMO could easily result in a juror or two holding out for innocent. I realize there is much more to come, but right now the roller coaster is in a valley.

[sabrina 1]

15. I feel the exact opposite to you since the evidence has been published. I feel more

convinced now of a conviction than I did before. The evidence of the girlfriend totally contradicts Zimmerman's story and proves Trayvon was not the aggressor but was trying to get away from a dangerous stalker. His state of mind is made clear by her testimony, plus it is clear that Zimmerman approached HIM, that Zimmerman initiated the entire altercation and that Trayvon was correct to fear this dangerous individual, correct to feel threatened and even more correct considering that, to try to defend himself. Zimmerman's injuries are evidence of a teenager trying to save his own life, nothing more.

The cop's statement also will help the jury understand that Zimmerman's refusal to wait for the police, was the cause of the entire incident and that he intended to make sure Trayvon 'didn't get away'. The cops wanted to arrest Zimmerman and charge him that night, and they were there one minute after the killing.

I think the prosecutor knew what she was doing. She took time before her decision to charge Zimmerman and has far more information than we do.

I don't know where you or whoever it was who said her charges were weak, got that. Every criminal expert I heard praised her presentation and stated that she is highly respected in her field.

[monmouth]

2. Is there a link to this information yet?...n/t

[Lurks Often]

5. There is one thing that you may not have considered

I agree that the prosecutor has seen all the evidence, something NO ONE here has seen.

In an ideal world prosecutors would make decisions based strictly on facts, but we don't live in an ideal world. I believe it is entirely possible that the prosecutor filed charges, rightly or wrongly, because of political and public pressure. I think both sides will try and delay this until the publicity around the case subsides.

After going through the PDF file (http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002701192) , absent new information, I believe Zimmerman will be found not guilty of 2nd degree murder and the prosecutor will be lucky to get a manslaughter conviction.

Despite what most on DU think, the case will probably boil down to who initiated physical contact, if that can be proven.

[cthulu2016]

9. I am not suggesting a sure or easy conviction on 2nd degree

Nor am I suggesting that there could not be overcharging here -- consideration of lesser included offenses is automatic in Florida so there is little incentive to not undercharge.

Just that the evidence is consistent with some theory of second degree, and is thus not facially exculpatory. (And thus need not be alleged to be faked in order to maintain a belief in Zimmerman's guilt.)

[longship]

6. Thanks for this thread!

It lays down what I was thinking.

I've stayed away from these threads up to now. But you've put some logic into it.

IANAL, but your argument seems sound to me. But, from what I've read in the media and here at DU I think this case has some issues that is going to make it a nightmare for any prosecutor. You've helped me understand the issues. But it seems to be a tangled mess, to me.

Thanks.

BTW, are you a lawyer? (you don't have to answer that. )

[cthulu2016]

16. I take the Fifth.

[BlueToTheBone]

8. That is a fair charge.

I hope she puts on a great prosecution.

[HopeHoops]

10. What about the hate crime part?

[cthulu2016]

11. That's federal, I think.

[HopeHoops]

12. If anything, that's what it was. He instigated the confrontation, not TM.

[DearAbby]

13. I believe the prosecutor has a good case

the 911 tapes is the key. Question: why did Zimmerman leave his vehicle?

911 tapes tell us..."They always get away." Zimmerman himself.

That sounds like a man on a mission, to stop "They" from getting away like the others did. Zimmerman will convict himself, with his own words.

It could not be First degree, no premeditation. It is second degree being a crime of opportunity.

[JDPriestly]

14. In the 911 call, Zimmerman describes Trayvon Martin as being suspicious.

He states that Trayvon Martin is running and that he, Zimmerman, is following.

Then Trayvon and Zimmerman meet on a path in back of the houses.

Zimmerman kills Trayvon Martin. There is no doubt about that. He has admitted it.

And Zimmerman claims the protection of the Stand Your Ground law and the defense of self-defense to a charge of (either) 2nd degree homicide (or manslaughter).

The big question will be, assuming as he stated in his 911 call, Zimmerman thought Trayvon Martin was very likely a criminal, and assuming that Zimmerman knew the police were on the way, why did he take it upon himself to follow Trayvon Martin? What was his expectation or intent when he followed the boy?

There is reason to believe that Zimmerman imagined that Trayvon Martin really was a criminal. It is very hard to understand, therefore why Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin unless Zimmerman felt that he and his gun could stop Trayvon Martin's imagined criminal enterprise.

Assuming this view of the facts to be true, it would suggest that Zimmerman planned from the get-go to respond with great force, perhaps deadly force against Trayvon Martin, whom Zimmerman apparently viewed as a crime suspect.

In this interpretation, Zimmerman imagined himself to be a hero stopping a criminal. If this was the case, Zimmerman was not acting in self-defense but as a vigilante of sorts. Also, if this interpretation of the facts is true, Zimmerman attacked an innocent minor based on a false evaluation of the situation.

Normally, if you think someone is dangerous and you know the police are coming, you avoid danger and try not to follow or meet the person. Why Zimmerman followed may indicate whether he had enough intent to justify the 2nd degree charge.

Trayvon Martin was on the phone when Zimmerman was following him, and we know that from the person who was on the phone with him that Trayvon Martin knew he was being followed. Who was afraid? Zimmerman who seemed to be pursuing or following Trayvon Martin? Or Trayvon Martin who was being or felt he was being pursued?

Did the confrontation start with a physical fight, or did it start with the physically aggressive act of a pursuit on foot? Were the two in the same place at the same time merely due to a coincidence or because of Zimmerman's choices and conduct? In that sense, wouldn't Zimmerman be found to have "started" the confrontation regardless of who struck the first blow (which may never be ascertained with certainty).

It could be argued that Zimmerman was following Trayvon Martin because, while he thought Trayvon Martin could be a threat, Zimmerman knew he had a gun and could take care of himself. If that is the jury's view, would Zimmerman be considered to have been seeking a heroic moment? That might be a conclusion a jury could draw from these facts. If so, was Zimmerman really defending himself or looking for a fight?

Another argument might be that Zimmerman was impulsive and aggressive by nature. He was apparently taking a medication for attention deficit disorder and had a record of getting into fights and of physical violence against a girl friend, so this argument could be supported by facts. If so, it might be that Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin and initiated contact out of a criminal impulse.

Let's say that the evidence suggests that Zimmerman caught up with Trayvon Martin and tapped Trayvon Martin on the shoulder or simply grabbed Trayvon Martin somehow or even just reached out and touched him.

Would a jury decide that it was Trayvon Martin who had the right to stand his ground and defend himself? An unwanted touching is an assault. And Trayvon Martin might have been justified in believing that he was under attack.

At this point, we don't know enough about what all the witnesses will say, about what evidence the judge will admit, or what forensic experts will surmise from the facts.

It is clear, however, that Zimmerman established in his first 911 call that Trayvon was running away from the clubhouse area and that at the time of the shooting, the two of them were on a path that Trayvon was taking to get to the house where he was staying. I think it is likely that a jury will determine that Zimmerman chose to follow Trayvon and to place himself in the position in which he had an altercation with Trayvon Martin and ultimately shot Trayvon.

(Was Zimmerman trying to find an address when he met with Trayvon Martin? No. Zimmerman and Trayvon met on a path between and behind the houses. Street addresses are in the fronts of houses on the street side, not behind them.)

I'm not sure that which of the two struck the first blow will be determinative or even material. I think rather that Zimmerman's following Trayvon Martin may be viewed as the beginning of their confrontation. The facts we have before us now suggest that is how both of them understood the events. Zimmerman admitted he was following Trayvon Martin. Apparently a witness states that Trayvon Martin in his dying moments stated that he believed he was being followed.

I have not been able to figure out any other explanation for the fact that the two of them ended up in the same location at the same time when Trayvon Martin was running away from the clubhouse where Zimmerman's truck was parked and from where Zimmerman placed his first call to 911. I doubt that a jury will find any other explanation either.

We don't know all the facts yet, but those we do know support charging Zimmerman with homicide or manslaughter of some sort in my opinion. Whether Zimmerman's lawyer can exclude evidence or explain away the obvious problems in his defense remains to be seen.

Unlike others on this thread, I would expect Zimmerman to arrange a plea bargain once the publicity subsides a bit.

I think that the witnesses' testimony will be believed and that, while the witnesses will as usual contradict each other as to some details, the overall picture will emerge that Zimmerman chose to be in a position in which he could shoot Trayvon Martin, that Zimmerman had a gun and consciously or subconsciously knew he had the gun and therefore felt reasonably safe in meeting up with Trayvon Martin after chasing him.

Even if Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman with a fist, Zimmerman did not need to fear for his life because Zimmerman knew he had a gun. In a sense, carrying a gun outside your home weakens a claim of self-defense against someone who has no gun even in a state with a Stand Your Ground law in my opinion.

Regardless of what happens from here out, this is a terrible tragedy for everyone concerned. Trayvon Martin died at the age of 17. His family will suffer greatly because of what happened.

Trayvon Martin, from what I can tell, made good choices. He ran from someone who was pursuing him. He stayed on the phone with a friend as he ran.

As for Zimmerman, his fate, whether he is convicted or not, is also tragic. His life is ruined. No matter what happens, he will have to live with the fact that he killed an innocent youth. And that guilty knowledge will haunt his life.

Zimmerman made tragically bad choices. First -- he carried a gun. Second he did not stay by his truck. He apparently chose to follow Trayvon.

This case fascinates me because it reminds me of a Greek tragedy. All the characters are essentially good, but one in particular has really tragic flaws that cause a disaster. That is how I see this case.

There may be evidence that Zimmerman racially profiled Trayvon Martin. I'm not dealing with that here, but if that proves to be the case, it is yet another tragic aspect of the situation.

Leave your guns at home, folks. Leave your guns at home. And don't follow what you think is trouble. You might actually be creating trouble where none exists. If you want to be a police officer join a force and go through the training. You have to be disciplined and demonstrate a lot of self-control to be an effective police officer. An impulsive person should not even try.