Pope Francis To Allow Priests To Forgive Women Who Had Abortions

[kpete]

Pope Francis will give all priests discretion to formally forgive women who have had abortions and seek absolution during the Roman Catholic Church's upcoming Holy Year, in the Argentine pontiff's latest move towards a more open and inclusive church.

by the Vatican on Tuesday, Francis described the "existential and moral ordeal" faced by women who have terminated pregnancies and said he had "met so many women who bear in their heart the scar of this agonizing and painful decision."

In church teaching, abortion is such a grave sin that those who procure or perform it incur an automatic excommunication.

It can usually only be formally forgiven by the chief confessor of a diocese -- known by the Italian term "penitenziere" -- or a Christian missionary, Vatican spokesman Father Ciro Benedettini said.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pope-francis-to-allow-priests-to-forgive-women-who-had-abortions_55e5817fe4b0aec9f35462e9

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

1. Well, that's big of him...

[snooper2]

23. Perfect response LOL- I can't wait till less than 10% of the population follows mythology

Probably won't happen in my lifetime but hopefully for my daughter

[Arugula Latte]

35. I'll second that emotion.

[Le Taz Hot]

36. Oh, you are SO much more genteel

that I was about to be. I'll go with your response.

[Liberal_in_LA]

82. lol.

[PeaceNikki]

2. The idea that women are in need absolution for reproductive choice is disgusting.

What other medical decisions require "forgiveness" from the RCC?

[LostOne4Ever]

90. THIS! nt

[Blue_Adept]

3. an important step for bringing the church into the 21st century

Institutions like this rarely make huge leaps forward and radically alter their positions. It takes time.

Glad to see that they're continuing to change and move forward in some ways, especially for the men and women who have this as an important part of their life. Being able to get forgiveness from an institution that is crucial to their sense of self is a positive thing.

But I'm sure we'll have plenty of people crapping all over it.

[Ron Green]

4. I agree; these positive steps by Pope Francis are not taken cynically,

but the snarky responses already in this thread provide cynicism enough for all.

[Blue_Adept]

5. Yep

And I say all of this as an atheist. I left the church a long, long time ago. But I understand the importance of it and to the people involved. I totally get the "oh, here's another man telling women it's okay" angle, but there's this empathy thing that has to be taken into account as well to understand why men and women that are involved in abortion situations that are of the faith will take this seriously and mean so much to them.

It's an area where we can "cross the aisle" and potentially bring a few more over to our side.

[kpete]

9. Blue_Adept

I often start to reply to my own threads and then delete, because words are not my best tool.


You summed up best what my thoughts are:

I left the church a long, long time ago. But I understand the importance of it and to the people involved.



I have family and friends who will be uplifted by this.

peace,
kp

[Blue_Adept]

15. Same here

Friends and family with situations that involve this that will end up feeling better in the long run.

And it eases some of the "wedge" issue aspect as well, because some will feel like that if there's forgiveness within the church then it's something that they can ease their own position on as well and "evolve".

[Bluenorthwest]

26. I saw your post about guns cost lives that do not need to be lost. I offer you these facts:

The RCC opposes all contraception, so it teaches members not to use condoms. In Africa the Church teaches that condoms spread HIV. In Africa each month, more than 100,000 people die of AIDS.
Millions and millions of people could be saved by simple honest presentation of health science facts by the authorities of that Church instead of the toxic lies they tell. 3,300 + just today will die.

It's not all that uplifting really.

[hunter]

28. I live in a community that is Catholic.

The Church is part of everyday life. Hate the Church all you like, but what you are doing is like telling people they shouldn't eat Chinese food or wear clothing made of mixed fibers, well, because... because what?

I'm a blatant heretic, maybe a hypocrite, but the Church is what it is, just as secular government is. I find secular government in the U.S.A. to be far more regressive and oppressive than the Church.

This decision by the Pope is going to bring comfort and peace to many people who live by an ethical framework that's different than yours. This is progress for an institution that is massive and slow to change.

[PeaceNikki]

29. WHAT?!??! Can you expand on this part, please?

"I find secular government in the U.S.A. to be far more regressive and oppressive than the Church."

How EXACTLY?

That's one of the craziest things I have read on DU.

[hunter]

40. The Church can't make me pay for an aircraft carrier named U.S.S. George H.W. Bush.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_George_H.W._Bush

That's just one example.

Here in my own community people are more likely to pay attention to me speaking from a Catholic perspective than some fundamentalist yahoo elected to the school board is, whether I speak from a Catholic perspective or an entirely secular perspective.

I may be an unusual case. My wife and I are both children of strongly matriarchal families. Our parents had many children traditional Catholic style, but then they stopped having kids and started using birth control. They were very open about that.

My mom used to drive around with a "Choose Life" license plate frame. She'd tell us that when she married she was imaging a family of at least nine kids...



My mom also told us if we had any babies, accidental or otherwise, to bring them home. I think that's why me and my siblings didn't have children until we were married and had established are own households. There were simply too many children in my parent's house. I learned to change diapers as a child... yech.

I've said in other threads about religion that teaching a child to accept authority and punishment, and the other side of that toxic coin, shame and guilt as something normal, as something a part of ordinary daily life, that is where parents go wrong, whether or not the family ethics are based on religion or some secular understanding of society.

As a parent "Because I said so!" is only a card you play when your child is in immediate danger, and you still have to explain later.

I hold any "authority" to the same standard.

Our own kids were raised 100% Catholic in a city that is majority Catholic. Unlike some, we never had to drag them to Mass, etc., because as parents we never demanded any rigid conformity from them, and no sort of question was ever out-of-bounds.

My own upbringing was a little different. We ended up Quaker because my mom's the sort who would argue about God with the Pope, even with God Himself. Unlike some churches, the Quakers didn't exclude her, she could say what she thought, people would listen respectfully, and the Meeting would move on. There was no "Authority" for her to argue with. I've seen my mom argue with priests and bishops and other religious leaders and it's not pretty.

[PeaceNikki]

41. Make you pay? Gosh, that's privilege. And a far cry from proving your RIDICULOUS claim.

I find your statement ridiculous and offensive.

"...government in the U.S.A. to be far more regressive and oppressive than the Church."

Really? Pennies of your tax dollars paying for a fucking aircraft carrier named after an asshole is "far more regressive" than women's autonomy? Or gay rights? Or... science?

Dollars tithed to the church are directly contributing to fighting against those progressive ideas. Directly.

What the ever-living FUCK!?!?

[hunter]

46. If you think I tithe as Mormons or Fundamentalists do, you are mistaken.

[PeaceNikki]

47. I didn't say "you", I said "Dollars tithed".

[hunter]

49. Against my will, I "tithed" for war in Iraq.

My church opposed that.

[PeaceNikki]

50. That doesn't make the US government "far more regressive than the RCC"

And it's still one of the most ridiculous things I've read here on DU. And I've read a lot of ridiculous things here.

[hunter]

52. You're not a dead body in Iraq.

Your kids are not suffering horrible birth defects from all that depleted uranium and lead and gawd knows what else the U.S.A. shot all over Iraq.

This U.S.A. is a sad pathetic nation that allowed Darth Cheney and his meat puppet President to rule.

I don't remember choosing to be born in California, I don't remember choosing to be born into a community where religion was an important aspect of daily life. I didn't vote for any Reagan or Bush.

How about you?

[Bluenorthwest]

55. That brings us back to the millions of dead in Africa who were told by your Church that condoms

are a sin and would make them sick. 100,000+ dead each and every month in Africa from AIDS. That's how this conversation started, I pointed that out and your response was to criticize me and praise your Church without bothering to comment on the facts I presented.

[SidDithers]

58. Additionally, the Catholic Church in Rwanda was complicit in the genocide of the Tutsis...

Tutsis would be hiding out in Catholic Churches, and the Priest would turn them over to the Hutus.

Catholic priest Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka has been convicted of genocide by Rwanda, but the good priest being sheltered by the Catholic Church in France.

Africa and the RCC have a bad history.

Sid

[Bluenorthwest]

62. Francis fans do not want to talk about Africa at all.

Mention AIDS deaths and condoms and they say 'You hate the Church'. They won't even acknowledge Africa. '

[hunter]

65. And? Here we are.

What are you doing about Africa? What leverage do you have?

[Bluenorthwest]

122. What leverage do you have on Iraq and aircraft carriers? Why can't you speak to what I said?

I have been involved in fighting AIDS in Africa since before the US government was involved there. Decades during which the RCC has told Africans not to use condoms. Why do you not take issue with that? 100,000 dead each and every month, for decades. That number, high as it is, is a great improvement as secular education makes inroads against the lies taught by the churches and the RCC in particular.

91% of the world's HIV infected children live in Sub Saharan Africa. 71% of all global deaths from HIV/AIDS are the deaths of African people.

You know who has leverage in Africa, hunter? Pope Francis and his Bishops. But they use it for ill result. In the past I had a small amount of influence in some places in Africa, yes I did, and I used it to the greatest extent possible. But I'm not a person of standing like Francis is. He could save massive amounts of human life with a few words. If I could do that, I would have done so many years and millions of deaths ago. He can, so he should without delay.

[Arugula Latte]

37. How is the secular government far more regressive and oppressive than the Church?

Could you please give us some examples?

Also, are you looking positively on the church because it has been in the forefront of fighting for gay rights and women's rights?

[hunter]

45. The Church has never stopped anyone in my family or among my friends from marrying.

They're just not married in the Catholic Church. (I am.)

Many years ago, before gay marriage was even a realistic political issue, one of my ex-girlfriends married a woman. Their marriage was not recognized by the secular state, but it was recognized by another church and my ex also had the money to hire fierce lawyers to defend their marriage, which was especially important once they had children. My ex's Orthodox mom eventually accepted the marriage and enjoyed a good relationship with her grandkids and their two moms. In my wife's family there is a similar relationship, with children, and amazingly enough they are raising their kids Catholic. (That wouldn't really be possible in some places. The Church is not monolithic. Liberal places get liberal priests, conservative places get conservative priests, and regressive places get regressive priests.)

So in these marriages the secular state really was more oppressive than the church.

I believe marriage is a human right. That's just one reason I fly my rainbow flag on DU.

My wife and I were very active fighting Proposition 8 here in California. Everyone in our parish knew it, which caused us some extreme friction with the more conservative Catholics in our family, but not so much in church itself. I did get an interesting reply to a letter of mine from the Bishop, but our family wasn't kicked out of the Church, as had once happened when I was a kid and the church we were attending responded to my mom's dissent by posting some big men at the door specifically to keep my mom out. (The story gets worse...)

All I got for my dissent was a polite letter.

I think I was much more effective as an activist within the Church than as an outsider. I've had less success as an entirely secular activist in various issues.

[Bluenorthwest]

53. How nice for you. Is your community capable of responding to what is said to them instead of making

up lots of bullshit like claiming I hate your Church? What I posted is fact. Your response was off topic and personal.
Any chance of you commenting on what I actually said? Or are the facts too much to deal with?

[hunter]

104. I'm very familiar with all the "facts."

What sort of practical problem solving have you accomplished?

Humans by nature are irrational creatures. Every community has it's own irrationality, my own largely Catholic community, and even among the ideologically pure atheists and rationalists.

In a fight between my mom and the Pope, or Penn and Teller, Randi, Jesus Christ, or Saint Peter at the Pearly Gates...

... well, I never want to see that. I've witnessed cat fights between my mom and Catholic Bishops. Girls are mean.

My mom is quick to fight with God, Jesus, authorities, and many commonly accepted realities and social norms. As a kid my family left Franco's Spain in the middle of the night after my mom got into a heavy argument with one of Franco's plain clothes men. My dad couldn't sleep that night so he woke us all up and we left for France. My dad protects his wife and his family.

In my youth I was often a feral human, but never so much as my mom or dad. My mom's parents were both crazy. During World War II my mom's "daycare" providers were prostitutes. Nice ladies with many boyfriends. My mom was always adored and never abused. My dad was the child of an autistic spectrum rocket scientist and a mom and aunt who had run away to glamorous Hollywood as teens. My "good" grandma died too young, but her party-girl sister lived more than a century, still partying to her very last day. My great aunt was almost a survivor of the great San Francisco Earthquake, but she never considered herself such because she was out of town that day visiting relatives, and she didn't return home until things had settled down a bit. Their family home did not fall down or burn. It still stands. My great aunt's younger sister, my grandma, was born in San Francisco too, after the earthquake.

My mom and dad currently live in a rain forest, drinking and bathing in rainwater that falls on their roof, buying food from local farmers. I've not visited them yet because I can't afford the passage. They are both artists. In his working life my dad was mostly union. His pension hasn't been stolen. As a kid I stood on picket lines, and stapled paper signs to sticks.

Artists and pacifists can be extremely dangerous. My mom's mom was dangerous for more simple reasons. My grandma had to be removed from the home she fully owned by police and paramedics officially declared a danger to herself and others. It was a fight that lasted hours. These days I think the police would have simply shot her dead.

Honestly the only thing my grandma ever understood was hot metal, horny sailors, dogs, cattle, and horses. She was a "Rosie the Riveter" shipyard welder and party girl by night during World War II and she wasn't sent home from work when the war ended because she was too skilled with hot metal, and maybe because she knew too much. She retired with a good pension.

Nevertheless my grandma was insane. Me and my siblings used to wonder why adults would treat her like she was sane, even after she'd been kicked out of "assisted living" places. My parents would keep her in the "master bedroom" with her evil cat until nobody could stand her any more and they found her another place to live. Then the evil cat kept the master bedroom to herself, until my grandma inevitably returned.

I've only got a quarter of my mom's mom insanity in my genes, and a quarter of my dad's rocket scientist dad in my genes.

I'm not bragging. Often it was hell. I dreaded holidays as a kid, especially Christmas. My best childhood Christmas memory was having the Hong Kong Flu.

What's your story?

[Blue_Adept]

30. I have no idea what post of mine you're referencing

[Bluenorthwest]

57. It was addressed to the OP, not to you. My point is that if we care about sensless wastes of human

life by gun, we also need to care about all other human life being important.

[onehandle]

24. Another good step towards progress.

And it will piss off the radical minority here in the U.S. that think they represent all American Catholics.

[hifiguy]

27. Agreed all around. Turning around an institution like the RCC

is like raising the Titanic with a tweezers. This is not an insignificant step.

And this has no effect on non-Catholics so why get in a huff about it?

[Blue_Adept]

31. There's the secular segment that's just against anything that the church does

Again, complete atheist here myself.

But unless the church is utterly and completely destroyed and religion removed in the old "RIGHT EFFIN NOW!" mentality, nothing that's done is good or worthwhile. They'll point to all sorts of other things, related or not, as to why it doesn't matter.

I prefer to praise the good that's being done and continue to work to change hearts and minds on the other elements. Spewing fire gets very little accomplished. Which is also why I rarely post around here since the fire part is what gets people.

[hifiguy]

32. I've been an atheist going on 40 years.

No time for religion whatsoever but if it is gonna be around, the more humane the better. It's a small step but one in the right direction. All things considered, pope Frank is on the right side of the two biggest crises facing the planet: pirate capitalism and climate change. That's a good thing in my book.

If Naomi Klein can make common cause with him, why not the rest of us on the left? She's one of the best we have.

[PeaceNikki]

33. pssssh. To borrow from another DUer

"So let me get this straight.

Please correct me if I'm wrong because I don't keep up with Catholic doctrine, but murder can be forgiven, right? Individuals who have killed, perhaps multiple times, and are convicted of murder, spending time in prison, can confess their sins, be forgiven, and be admitted into heaven, correct? However, women who have had abortions, who have done nothing illegal, cannot confess their "sins", cannot be admitted into heaven, and cannot be forgiven unless the pope grants a super-special 50-year jubilee exemption? Fuck. That."

Don't expect us to cheer on little fucking patronizing misogynist pats on the head to women. I will continue to voice my opinion on how this is damaging. It propagates a general societal perception that women's medical decisions should be judged moral or immoral by anyone. I won't cheer this on and I will point out the harm that the RCC does with these ridiculous PR moves.

[Major Nikon]

109. The reason why the Pope is making this step is because Catholics are voting with their feet

So the reality is the church is entering the 21st century kicking and screaming.

A real step in the right direction would be the RCC begging forgiveness for making women 2nd class citizens for the last 20 centuries.

[Arugula Latte]

111. That will never happen. Their entire schtick is Men = good. Women = icky/unclean/sinning/inhuman.

[Warren Stupidity]

115. the RCC has written of western europe and north america

their growth market is africa asia and latin america. They really don't care what we think about their misogyny and homophobia.

[dembotoz]

6. Understand this is big but it still pisses me off

[Lars39]

7. Oh, fuck him.

[SidDithers]

8. Will priests be providing forgiveness for all medical procedures?...

Or just the ones involving lady parts?

Can I get absolution for my vasectomy?



Sid

[PeaceNikki]

10. Also note that is still at the discretion of the priest.

I imagine many will opt out.

[Arugula Latte]

39. I'm sure all the RCC clergy (men, of course) who have raped children are already forgiven.

Last edited Tue Sep 1, 2015, 04:59 PM - Edit history (1)

Isn't that convenient for them?

[Xyzse]

11. Sad as it is, since the current position as it stands is much worse...

I will consider it a small positive step, that would hopefully build up to more.

[LWolf]

12. This is a big step

that I never thought I'd hear...not even from Francis.

And yes, it's a strong and clear example of sanctioned misogyny, that religion should promote the idea that women NEED forgiveness. We don't.

Still, I'll celebrate this step forward, because faith is also a choice, and women who want to practice their faith shouldn't be excommunicated for their private choices.

This Pope is taking steps that will be rippling down through his church for a long time to come. If that church became a true vessel for the life of their Jesus, instead of for theocratic and political power, the planet would be a better place.

[CTyankee]

13. he seems to be talking only about women who "bear a scar in their heart" over this decision.

He is right that it is an existential and moral situation (not an "ordeal" for every woman). What about the women that do not bear a scar but find a sense of relief that the availability of safe, legal abortion gives them? Can only women who bear a scar in their heart be forgiven?

It seems to me that he is inching toward recognition at least that women have moral agency around this kind of a decision, which is why her decision should be her moral choice, made in exercise of her moral agency as a human being. If he can stay on that track he might some day stumble on the truth.

[bigwillq]

14. Women do not need forgiveness from anyone

For the choices they've made in their lives regarding their bodies.

[Blue_Adept]

17. Correct, they don't need it

but some of them want. So it's a good thing that they can now get it from a place and organization that they place value with.

[bigwillq]

18. I can agree with that (nt)

[MellowDem]

21. Except it's not good...

All it shows is that a certain powerful church was able to convince them of their need to view themselves in such a degraded way, and that said church, which thrives off of misogyny, still holds power over them.

Only religious privilege would allow progressives to think of this as "good".

[PeaceNikki]

22. mmm hmm

It's maddening

[hunter]

51. What kind of "power" does the Church really have here in the U.S.A.?

Probably less than Bill Gates or dead Jedi angel Steve Jobs.

I'm a Linux guy. Fuck Apple. Fuck Microsoft.

What computer operating system are you using?

[MellowDem]

56. Depends on the person...

For people raised in, and often indoctrinated into, the Church, and who believe fervently in its teachings, the Church will have some psychological power, cultural power, even socioeconomic power. The more a person relies on the Church for their identity, for their morality, for their community, and for even financial help, the more power it can have over their lives.

Quite a few people never leave the Church because it would be too inconvenient to do so, the costs would outweigh the benefits, etc. etc., even if they don't believe.

Any organization that pushes misogynsitc shaming, and then makes it easier for women to obtain "forgiveness" from the organization more readily for their "sins", shouldn't be applauded. But religion has so much power and privilege that even progressives applaud the Pope for the equivalent of an abusive spouse saying they will accept the abused's apologies for misdeeds from 7 to 9 instead of 7 to 8.

To an outsider, it's really fucked up.

[Bluenorthwest]

59. You seem to focus exclusively on the US and affluent Americans.

That's interesting.

[hunter]

76. What "power" does the Church have over you?

I'd hazard this guess that it's more than it has over me.

I was taught first and foremost to live by my own conscience, and I believe it's a pretty good conscience, thoroughly tainted by religion, yes, but this is the U.S.A., most all of us are.

Religion is fading away quickest in places like Northern Europe and the U.K. where all the kids my age suffered state religious services in school.

Curious that.

The very worst aspects of religion, any religion, thrive among the ignorant.

The same is true for any other ideology.

Living life well is not a trivial pursuit with simple answers.

The simple answers are usually incorrect.

[kwassa]

88. Great post.

[PeaceNikki]

60. Ever hear of Prop 8? Personhood amendments?

Nearly every Republican politician who invokes faith?

[Feron]

64. A lot more than you think..

The RCC has been buying up hospitals and medical facilities across the U.S.. And they do impose their theology onto their patients regardless of the patient's creed.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/26/1197184/-Why-I-Refuse-to-Be-Taken-to-a-Catholic-Hospital-And-Why-Other-Women-Should-Too

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication_of_Margaret_McBride

When I'm seeing a medical professional, I want health care based on science and not theology.

[PeaceNikki]

67. Plus this.

Thank you, important point.

[LuvNewcastle]

16. I think they ought to give ice cream

to all women who have abortions. Those women are doing their part to help save the planet. Having an abortion is like installing a solar panel.

[Starry Messenger]

19. That was awesome. Thank you.

[kpete]

20. wow

interesting way of thinking
outside the box

i would like chocolate chip mint please


and peace,
kp

[JTFrog]

25. He can fuck right off.

And I do not forgive him or any other religious fuckers who pretend they care about life yet have no problem making women suffer or die because of their archaic bullshit.

[CharlotteVale]

34. [phone]

[Arugula Latte]

38. It will be a happy day when all the women of the world just tell the Vatican to go fuck itself.

[demmiblue]

42. Me, too.

We have our share of the knuckle-dragger types here, sadly.

This was posted in the DU Religion group a while back:

At least it was hidden... I guess (not a newb, but a long time poster). Should have culminated in a ppr, imo.

[el_bryanto]

61. So do you think you should be PPRd for reproducing that offensive image in GD? nt

[demmiblue]

69. Good Dog, are you that obtuse?

Nothing like a good old fashioned witch hunt.

[el_bryanto]

70. I'm just asking - it's a pretty hateful image.

Particularly with the suggestion that atheists eat babies - so why did you choose to post it here? Aren't you concerned that some members of DU might find it offensive?

Bryant

[demmiblue]

75. Um, duh.

Are you saying DUers, particularly women DUers (atheist or not), shouldn't know what is going on in the sub-groups of a popular Democratic site? Do you find that the posting of sexist religionist drivel in the sub-groups is not pertinent to the discussion? Wow!

[el_bryanto]

80. Ah - so when you mentioned a witch hunt earlier you weren't opposed

You just wanted to make sure it was aimed at the right witches, eh?

Bryant

[demmiblue]

81. Lol! You can champion the conservative viewpoint all you want... I will not.

You are most welcome to the last word in this conversation, to fall on your sword and defend the indefensible.

[el_bryanto]

84. That's a filthy lie; I don't champion conservative view points.

[Warren Stupidity]

114. well you do believe that homosexuals have to go to hell.

unless of course you've given up on that firmly held belief.

[el_bryanto]

116. Please link me to a post where I have said that. nt

[rug]

87. You haven't a clue who made that, do you?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2010/04/09/if-only-there-were-atheist-barbies/

Jen is a feminist atheist.

Why don't you just educate yourself before popping off?

[Orrex]

43. Pope Forgives Molested Children

May 22, 2002

Meet the new pope...

[SidDithers]

48. Brilliant...

Sid

[WinkyDink]

44. Look, if you don't believe, you don't. We'll all find out too soon.

[Arugula Latte]

85. Likely not.

The most plausible scenario is that we die, our brain shuts down, and that's it. We never "find out" because there's nothing to find out.

[Solly Mack]

54. Papal patronization propagating the precept of power and control over women.

Fuck that patronizing, paternalistic attitude.

There, there bad girl. Big Daddy still loves you. All is forgiven. Until the next Big Daddy says otherwise.

Women made to feel guilty for being human. For making choices that best serve their lives. Only to be called names and shunned. Now that same power that heaped the guilt on women, that made them feel like pieces of dirt wants to pretend that offering up forgiveness for something that isn't wrong or bad or immoral is somehow an act of kindness - when it is really nothing more than the same old control through guilt and shame.

I'll love you until you disappoint me by disobeying me - and then only after making you feel like a piece of garbage, clamoring to win my approval back, will I forgive you. Until you disobey me again. Rinse. Lather. Repeat.

Why the fuck would I celebrate women being caught in such an abusive cycle?

[beam me up scottie]

63. ^^^This^^^

Women are suffering and dying all over the world because of the policies of the RCC.

And he's going to forgive us?

[Solly Mack]

66. Something about produce and reptiles that cause good women to go bad.

[beam me up scottie]

68. It's all Eve's fault.

They knew exactly what they were doing when they blamed women for ruining paradise.

[Solly Mack]

71. Damn, Eve. Stepping out of line that way.

Uppity woman.

Didn't she know the fate of the world was riding on her shoulders?

[beam me up scottie]

72. And every woman who ever experienced the agonizing pain of child birth has her to thank.

Don't blame God for cursing you, it's all Eve's fault for being human.

“We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.”

-Gene Roddenberry

[Solly Mack]

74. Great quote.

[PeaceNikki]

73. Jezebel Spirit!!!

Jezebel is the bossy, bold and dominating woman who thinks SHE ‘wears the pants’ in the family. In the Bible account, things ended badly for her: “’Throw her down’Jehu said. So they threw her down and some of her blood spattered the wall and the horses as they trampled her underfoot."

[Solly Mack]

77. Don't leave out the part about dogs eating her flesh.

Wouldn't want people to think she got off lightly.

[PeaceNikki]

78. Amen, sister. Good catch.

[Solly Mack]

86. The year long “Jubilee of Mercy” (his words, not mine) begins December 8th. We better hurry!

During the upcoming “Jubilee of Mercy” year, he wrote, all priests would be empowered to “absolve the sin of abortion” for those who seek forgiveness with “a contrite heart.” The Mercy Year starts Dec. 8.

Wouldn't want to miss out on all that condescension!

[Arugula Latte]

83. Exactly. This corrupt, grifting, murderous institution has caused women untold suffering

for centuries, and now they're throwing a bone to women for doing something they shouldn't have to apologize for.

Sickening.

[LWolf]

100. Nice alliteration.

It's a step forward, not backward.

It's true that there are miles and miles to go before reaching the light, but it's a step forward.

[Solly Mack]

101. If you say so.

[foo_bar]

107. it's an interesting case study for incrementalism

I think of the RCC as the world's oldest corporation (and one of the richest, but they're no Apple in the evangelism department either), so this seems like a membership drive at first glance... I mean they've never been choosy about their subscription base, excommunication notwithstanding, but you're supposed to feel really, really bad about yourself so you'll part with your dough, so this befits the tradition of periodic promotions for the salvation business ("As soon as money in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory's fire springs.&quot

So it's hard to get worked up about slow "reform" of an institution that systematically redistributes wealth from (often poor) adherents to a slick gilded behemoth when that reform means they're grudgingly accepting more sinners' money in exchange for the absolution of imagined transgressions. It's really a protection/extortion racket when you think about it, it's like you better pay up or else, we wouldn't want anything bad to happen to you.

[Glassunion]

79. Fark nailed it...

Are you a woman who had an abortion? Well, don't miss out on this special offer. For a limited time only, the Catholic Church will be offering forgiveness for your sin. So don't delay, confess today!

[rug]

91. Abortion, or helping someone procure one, incurs an automatic excommunication in the Catholic Church

That means women and men.

Anyone excommunicated (abortion is only one of several actions that results in automatic excommunication), who chooses to return, traditionally needed to go through the bishop of the diocese, or his delegate.

This action makes return available through any priest. It is far from a bad thing or a PR stunt. It is a good thing.

It should surprise no one that the Catholic Church considers abortion a very serious matter.

Don't like it? Don't get baptized.

[PeaceNikki]

92. Or... We can voice our opposition over such a barbaric policy.

USA! USA!

It's notable that the Wonder Pope still puts this at the discretion of the priest. I predict many in the US will opt out of this joyous event. It's also notable that there are no other medical decisions which result in excommunication.

For those interested:

In the 1983 Code of Canon Law (CIC) eight other sins carry the penalty of automatic excommunication: apostasy, heresy, schism (CIC 1364:1), violating the sacred species (CIC 1367), physically attacking the pope (CIC 1370:1), sacramentally absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin (CIC 1378:1), consecrating a bishop without authorization (CIC 1382), and directly violating the seal of confession (1388:1).

[rug]

94. You can voice anything you want. Make sure you know what you're talking abot.

Why don't you start with a thread about automatic excommunication for physically attacking the Pope?

[PeaceNikki]

96. Why don't you start one about how a priest raping a child

won't get you kicked out of the club?

[SidDithers]

98. Yeah. Strange set of priorities, there...

Diddle an altar boy - get sent to a different parish.

Turn Tutsis over to the Hutus, to be systematically murdered in Rwanda - get transferred to France.

Have an abortion - EXCOMMUNICATION!!



Sid

[rug]

99. Be my guest. I love debnking bullshit.

[Humanist_Activist]

105. So tell me, does child molestation lead to an automatic excommunication? n/t

[rug]

117. As you know, no. Neither does adultery, same sex relationships or anything but a handful of acts.

Let's see if you know why.

[hunter]

121. My mom is the sort who could be excommunicated for physically attacking a Pope.

Fortunately she's never met a Pope. But she's made herself very unwelcome in other churches.

And then she was Quaker. Quakers are pacifists.

Many people in my family, including myself, are pacifists of necessity. The Berserker genes are strong in us. Some of us talk to God.

My grandma, the older she got the more likely she was to attack anyone, which is why she had to be removed from the home she owned as a danger to herself and others, and why she'd get kicked out of nursing homes, and other "extended care" facilities, even those who'd claimed they were experts dealing with very difficult old people.

My grandma was a nasty old bag lady with two good union pensions, both her's and my grandfather's, Social Security, Medicare, a house she owned, no debt. Imagine an Irish Catholic or European Jewish matriarch gone entirely feral in the American wilderness.

My mom's family were non-Mormons in the heart of Mormon territory. The original matriarch of my own X-chromosome had fled European war as a mail order bride to Salt Lake City. But she didn't like sharing a husband so she ran off with a cute U.S. Government surveyor and they established a homestead that is still remote, down long gravel roads, occasionally inaccessible entirely in the winter from ordinary civilization. Church on Sunday or any other Sabbath day was rarely a realistic option. It was something you did on the side bringing the cattle to market. Baptisms, marriages, and all the rest.

The night of my Big Catholic Wedding I was a little bit worried about my mom, and a lot more worried about my grandma who had bitten cops and survived. But my mom and her mom were charming.

It was the last time my grandma participated in a big religious celebration and she was smiling like the lunatic she was the entire day.

[SidDithers]

93. Oh, so it's a device to help the church boost membership...

Well, when you put it that way...



Sid

[rug]

95. Do you have trouble reading words as written, Sid?

Or is simply more comforting to masticate and regurgitate them?



rug

[MellowDem]

102. I wonder how many Catholics choose to get baptized...

Hmm...

[rug]

103. 38,042 in the U.S. last year.

http://cara.georgetown.edu/caraservices/requestedchurchstats.html

You're welcome.

[MellowDem]

118. And 775,000 infant or minor baptisms...

Last year. So 5 percent of all baptisms last year were of adults, the rest were children, the vast majority infants. And they'll all be counted as Catholic until they die. Seems immoral to me.

I'd be embarrassed to associate myself with a belief system that relies so heavily on the indoctrination of children for their numbers. Kinda undermines the legitimacy of the beliefs if they're resorting to those tactics.

Good news is, the number of baptisms has been dropping significantly. People aren't indoctrinating their children as much. Good for them.

[rug]

119. 79.7 million self-identified Catholics.

Up 5.1 million from the previous year.

I'd be embarrassed to say that represents a decline.

[MellowDem]

120. The decline is in baptisms...

And the increase is due to immigration, and still they're declining as a share of the population.

And the 5.1 million increase is over 4 years, and again, only 38,000 are adults that decided to join, that's a shameful number.

Again, when is it moral to count members of a belief system in this way? Isn't it fundamentally dishonest?

[ananda]

97. -allow- ??

Like it's up to him, and women need forgiveness??

There is a huge ick factor there... and a complete
disconnect from the fact that women are fully
human, just as valuable as he is, and capable
of realizing that they do not need permission to
make their own decisions nor anyone's forgiveness.

[840high]

106. This Catholic agrees with you.

[Arugula Latte]

110. So why be a Catholic and put up with this bullshit?

Why enable this ridiculous patriarchal institution?

You're a progressive ... You can just walk away.

That's what I'd do, anyway.

[840high]

112. I did walk away - found myself

missing my church and went back. I'm a very relaxed Catholic.

[Skittles]

108. it is disgusting misogynistic garbage

and shame on DUers who see this as "progress"

[Warren Stupidity]

113. they have to admit that they are awful murderesses and beg for forgiveness

and it is only for this one year, after that back to the pit of fire.

Sorry but this sort of change is bullshit.