Why one naturopath quit after watching her peers treat cancer patients

[HuckleB]

http://www.vox.com/2015/9/2/9248713/britt-hermes

"You don't often hear about people transitioning from alternative healing to science-based medicine or vice versa. That's what makes someone like Dr. Oz — a highly credentialed surgeon who also believes in "energy healing" — so interesting. It's also why, when I stumbled across Britt Hermes's blog — Confessions of a Naturopathic Doctor — I was immediately hooked.

Hermes studied naturopathy, a type of alternative medicine focused on "natural" treatments like herbs and homeopathy, at Bastyr University in Kenmore, Washington. She then practiced for three years in Washington and Arizona — all while becoming increasingly disillusioned with her chosen profession.

"Naturopathic medicine is not what I was led to believe," she wrote on her blog. "I discovered that the profession functions as a system of indoctrination based on discredited ideas about health and medicine, full of anti-science rhetoric with many ineffective and dangerous practices."

Last year, Hermes left naturopathy behind and enrolled in a Master of Science program in Germany. On her blog, she's been myth-busting alternative medicine, and writing about everything from the gaps in regulation to what it's like to find cancer in a patient as a young ND.

..."


--------------------------------------------------


A good interview, indeed. This ought to concern us all. This is just not a tenable situation.

[HuckleB]

1. Meanwhile, things are only getting worse in Oregon.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/medicine-in-the-magic-kingdom-of-cascadia/

[PasadenaTrudy]

2. I have a friend

who insists that the reason perimenopause was a breeze for her, was that she went to an acupuncturist regularly. She also ended up in the ER a couple years ago when she took a hot bath with some Chinese herbs and had a bad reaction. Sigh....

[Matariki]

3. Acupuncture is recognized and used in main stream medicine.

It's used at the hospital I'm employed by. It's not a panacea but it is effective for some things. It's good to be informed before making blanket statements.

http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/acupuncture-goes-mainstream

[HuckleB]

8. Just because it is used, doesn't make it effective. It's an elaborate placebo.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/can-we-finally-just-say-that-acupuncture-is-nothing-more-than-an-elaborate-placebo/

We should all be very concerned that bad propaganda is leading to unworthy practices being pushed upon the public. We know too much to fall for this stuff. And yet we're allowing it, blindly. This takes up valuable health care resources that should not be wasted so carelessly.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/kings-of-quackademia-georgetown/

Also, read the link in post 1 above. It shows the very real problems with this issue on the ground, in Oregon.

[adigal]

13. My son had severe asthma for 7 years

It went away two weeks after we started with acupuncture.

Call it a placebo all you want, we call it a Lifesaver.

[HuckleB]

15. Asthma disappears over time for many kids.

Correlation is not causation, and there is no plausible mechanism for acupuncture to treat something like asthma. If your acupuncturist actually claimed to be able to do so, that person's lack of ethics are astounding.

[adigal]

37. It disappeared in two weeks...seriously. After about 7 years.

So their claims were accurate.

And I'm not one to go to an acupuncturist if I had cancer. But we tried everything else with my son, including the best hospitals and pulmonologists in NYC. And two weeks of acupuncture - gone.

[Orrex]

72. What's hilarious about acupuncture...

is that its proponents always say that they tried everything else and consulted all the experts first, and their miraculous cure took place only after getting jabbed by an acupuncturist.

For all the miraculous healing powers of this dubious modern art, it's amazing that it has never been experimentally shown to be valid outside of possible amelioration of pain or other effects largely indistinguishable from placebo.

You controlled and recorded all of the other variables, of course? The child's age? Environment? Season? Diet? Level of activity? Level of stress? Amount of sleep? Interactions with animals? Interactions with household products? The impact of previous conventional treatments?

It's entirely possible and far more likely that your son benefited from a range of treatments and changes to environmental factors, which you attribute to the effect of his acupuncture. This is a common perception, and in fact it's the basis for the entire alternative medicine industry--the knowledge that people will praise the alt-med treatment in preference to the environmental change or the actual medical treatment that produced the cure.


I'm glad that your son feels better, but your perception is not sufficient to prove the validity of acupuncture. Sorry.

[J_J_]

19. that is awesome

no way is that a coincidence

Americans have a lot to learn about health care and alternative treatments from other cultures.

It's not as if we have the greatest health care on earth, maybe we should try to open our minds a bit, might learn something....

[HuckleB]

22. Of course! Any correlation, no matter how ridiculous is not coincidence!

WOW!

[J_J_]

26. what is ridiculous is thinking that the asthma spontaneously dissappeared

the exact same time her son went to accupuncture

[HuckleB]

28. It didn't.

And the fact that you believe an anonymous Internet anecdote that has no support in science is quite telling.

Yes:

PS: http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/childhood-asthma/expert-answers/outgrow-asthma/faq-20058116

[adigal]

38. Two weeks after we started acupuncture, he asthma disappeared and never came back

And everyone can laugh all the want. My son never had another asthma attack, and he had severe asthma.

Now, why it went away?? I can't tell you specifically. Perhaps it had to do with stress, as his asthma had him very stressed, which makes it worse, and round and round. The acupuncture definitely lessened his stress, so that may be it.

[HuckleB]

68. Again, there is no scientific basis for acupuncture helping asthma, or anything else.

It is an elaborate placebo. The plural of anecdote is not data. I understand why you believe what you do, as I used buy into such anecdotes, and even provide them. I finally learned how this works, however. And that's not it.

[LadyHawkAZ]

71. Both my brothers had childhood asthma

Two weeks after my mom did absolutely nothing extra at all, their asthma disappeared and never came back. Childhood asthma does that. No acupuncture, homeopathy, laying on of hands, reiki symbols, Chinese herbs, chiropractic care, drinking extra water, or anything else was required.

Tell you what though. I have adult onset asthma. I'll be happy to test the acupuncture-cures-asthma theory for anyone willing to pay for my sessions.

[HassleCat]

76. Correlation

I remember one time, I went into the kitchen and turned on the light. I was sick instantly, and had to vomit in the kitchen sink. Needless to say, I don't turn on the lights anymore.

[adigal]

39. People can laugh, but my son's very severe asthma went away

and never came back.

I think the acupuncture lessened his stress, and that helped the asthma. He was always stressed over not being able to breathe.

[HuckleB]

75. No one is laughing.

The fact that a useless treatment can be pushed upon the public in such an insidious manner is not laughable.

[adigal]

78. It certainly wasn't useless to us. Hey, do you see that air over there???

No? Must be that it doesn't exist cause you can't see it.

That's how ignorant you sound.

[HuckleB]

79. The plural of anecdote is not data. Correlation is not causation.

I am not one who sounds ignorant. You've been given a great deal of evidence that shows why your belief is erroneous. I used to believe in similar things, myself. I get it. You might try to challenge yourself. It's very helpful to improving life.


https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/anecdotes-cheaper-by-the-dozen/

and...

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/puncturing-the-acupuncture-myth/

and you've been given much more information. why ignore it?

[Matariki]

20. Are you a doctor?

Are you a research scientist?

I didn't think so.

[HuckleB]

21. So you can't respond to the content of my post.

I am qualified to the hilt, but I do not use that. Evidence is what matters, not qualifications.

Now, can you prove that such treatments are valid with an actual consensus of science?

What is your reason for believing in the big money over science here? I thought we were supposed to follow the money. Hmm.

[Matariki]

23. It's not worth it.

Not worth the effort. You don't know what you're talking about. Finding one link to support your biased ignorance means nothing and I don't have the time or inclination to argue with you. Which doesn't mean you are right or know what you're talking about.

[HuckleB]

24. LOL!

In other words, you know that you can't support alt med practices with a true consensus of science.

Come on! It's ok to be honest. I am. I used to buy into the con, and then I looked at the actual evidence. It's ok to find yourself wrong. I try to do so every day. So, if you can prove me wrong, do so.

In this matter, we both know that's not likely, so you post a rant that attacks me instead of offering support for your claims.

[Matariki]

29. It's *not* the concensus of science. You don't know what you're talking about

And it's not my job to educate you.

Here's a link to John Hopkins Medicine. You know, an actual medical reasearch foundation.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/healthlibrary/conditions/complementary_and_alternative_medicine/acupuncture_85,P00171/

"Studies have shown that acupuncture is effective for certain conditions."

How does acupuncture affect the body?

Acupuncture points are believed to stimulate the central nervous system. This, in turn, releases chemicals into the muscles, spinal cord, and brain. These biochemical changes may stimulate the body's natural healing abilities and promote physical and emotional well-being.

National Institutes of Health (NIH) studies have shown that acupuncture is an effective treatment alone or in combination with conventional therapies to treat the following:

Nausea caused by surgical anesthesia and cancer chemotherapy

Dental pain after surgery

Addiction

Headaches

Menstrual cramps

Tennis elbow

Fibromyalgia

Myofascial pain

Osteoarthritis

Low back pain

Carpal tunnel syndrome

Asthma

It may also help with stroke rehabilitation.

[HuckleB]

30. In other words, you haven't read anything I've posted.

Quackademic medicine is a big problem, even at places like Hopkins.

Do you know the logical fallacy you are utilizing? Please name it, so I can understand your level of understanding.

This is a real problem for real medicine, and I DO UNDERSTAND IT TO THE FULLEST DEGREE. I also understand that you are Googling to find things that support your preconceptions. Nothing new about that. It doesn't mean your preconceptions are valid. We will rue this era in medicine.


https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/university-of-toronto-coddles-quackery/

http://www.dcscience.net/2013/05/30/acupuncture-is-a-theatrical-placebo-the-end-of-a-myth/

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/kings-of-quackademia-georgetown/

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/26/quackademic-medicine-tightens-its-hold-on-the-cleveland-clinic/

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

[Act_of_Reparation]

34. People don't understand that medical doctors are generally not scientists...

... in the strictest sense of the word. Most have education in the basic biochemical processes relevant to the clinical profession, but unless a student opts for an MD/PhD (and who has the time or the money for that these days) they are not required to publish new knowledge. They are no more familiar with experimentation than the billers who file their insurance claims.

[HuckleB]

35. People don't undersant MDs have ten times the education and clinical experiaece...

,,, if alt med scumbags.

Stop pushing scam artists. It's unethical.

[Act_of_Reparation]

36. Not sure what you're getting at.

Part of the problem is that may of the people pushing bullshit alt medicine are MD's. People believe Dr. Oz, for example, because they assume his medical degree confers some kind of scientific expertise.

[HuckleB]

80. Yes, some of them are, but the people fighting quackery also tend to be MDs.

As well as nurses, PTs, etc... people who have to talk to their patients from a basis of honest science.

[Act_of_Reparation]

84. Without a doubt.

I am not saying doctors don't know anything about science. I am saying that a medical degree does not necessarily confer scientific expertise, which is why you will sometimes find people from ostensibly reputable medical institutions - like Johns Hopkins - peddling woo.

[adigal]

40. Yes, Johns Hopkins is a quack hospital because HuckleB told me so on the internets

You are what you are accusing others of - being ignorant.

[HuckleB]

81. Johns Hopkins is utilizing unproven quack treatments.

That's a fact. It has nothing to do with me.

How is that so hard to understand?

[adigal]

41. HuckleB says that John Hopkins practices quack medicine, so it must be true

I always believe anonymous people on the intertubes.

[HuckleB]

69. If John Hopkins is using quack alt med that is not supported by science...

then it's practicing quack medicine. It has nothing to do with me.

[pnwmom]

45. The Seattle Cancer Care Alliance (including the University of Washington,

Children's Hospital, and Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center) says that acupuncture can help relieve pain and nausea in some patients. (Nothing relieves it in all patients.)

Here's an example.

http://www.seattlecca.org/diseases/neuroblastoma-medicine.cfm

[GoneOffShore]

65. Trying to cure anything with acupuncture is like trying to cook a steak

By putting it in a room and havin a succession of people walk in and breath on it.

[REP]

4. I credit it to good genes and not buying the hype

My perimenopause was so unnoticeable I had to have tests to see if I'd finally reached menopause or not (I've had an endometrial ablation, so the #1 clue had been absent for years). I do get a little acupuncture from my cats, though ...

[SheilaT]

32. Acupuncture from my cats!

That must account for my wonderful health!

I will remember to use that phrase in the future.

[Rex]

5. If this is such a disgraced and fake profession, then why is it taught at a university?

I think I see the biggest problem, you can get a degree in it.

[HuckleB]

6. This is the biggest problem.

We have people taking student loans to become "educated" and work in "professions" that are not valid based on the science in question. How did we let this happen?

And, yeah, it's also becoming even more ridiculous, as legitimate medical schools allow quack practices into the curriculum. It all comes to down to making money, and that's not what we should be focused on in our health care system. Or so I would hope.

[Rex]

7. I don't know, but it disturbs me deeply. Maybe this is partly due to the fact the PTB let

places like Liberty University become an acclaimed college? We've let hocus pocus fields of study, get treated along the same lines of Zoology or Biology. A black eye to higher schools of learning imo.

[HuckleB]

10. Indeed. We have a broken university system.

I've seen acupuncturists actually spend time deriding their six figure loans. It's astounding to me.

[Rex]

11. Also I think part of it is the for-profit schools that turn out students with useless degrees.

The system is broken no doubt.

[HuckleB]

70. Exactly.

[pnwmom]

46. Bastyr is such a "disgraced and fake" university that the NIH funds research studies

there and the University of Washington's medical school conducts studies with it.

[Rex]

49. NIH funds thousands of colleges, nice try.

They get 500,000 in funds, John Hopskins gets around 600 million. But please do go on with your bad self.

[pnwmom]

51. Here is a list of Bastyr research studies, including some funded by the NIH

and at least one conducted jointly with the University of Washington. (I say at least one because I only looked at the first page of the listings.)

[beam me up scottie]

52. Someone has to go sit in the corner for 24 hours:

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Sun Sep 6, 2015, 09:58 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

NIH funds thousands of colleges, nice try.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7143885

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"please do go on with your bad self" is a personal insult in reply to a non-confrontational post.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Sep 6, 2015, 10:05 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: seems like a very mild insult. hardly worth a hide.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "please do go on with your bad self" isn't that bad, bad alert.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Get some thicker skin...this is mild compaired to some I have seen from people who never seem to get a hide.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There was no reason for an alert on this post.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh ffs. Go on with your bad self alerter and stop wasting our time with bullshit alerts.

[Rex]

53. I was supposed to knot no what the NIH does for a living.

Thanks! I've written some horrible replies and yet THIS gets alerted on. I am embarrassed that at one time I thought Dr. Oz was an actual doctor. Things we learn over the years. Hard to just look past the evidence.

[beam me up scottie]

54. At one time he was an actual doctor. Then he got greedy and went off the deep end.

Good on you for calling out the NIH studies = medical community's approval meme.

[Rex]

56. It would indicate NIH just cares about many fields of study. The not all eggs in one basket approach

That doesn't mean it has anything to do with medical peer reviewed literature, I've learned that one over the years. They could give a grant to study how the film Ghostbusters took paranormal into the mainstream mass consumer psyche. Nose hair length during human growth. Balloons and You. I bet NiMH studies a wide array of phenomina...still doesn't excuse a placebo as a cure-all. Nothing does, it is gibberish in a bottle.

Who ya gonna call!? John Hopkins!

[beam me up scottie]

57. LOL! I ain't afraid of no woo!

[Rex]

58. LOL! Well done!

[SidDithers]

9. DU rec...

Bastyr University. LOL.

Sid

[FrodosPet]

12. Homeopathic A&E

[HuckleB]

27. I love that bit!

It's funny that it always reminds me of the night I hung out at a neighborhood brewpub, and there was a table of Naturopaths nearby. The clinic where they work is across from my kid's dentist. When Portland, Oregon decided to keep fluoridation out of its public health practices via the vote, that clinic posted No On Fluoridation signs clearly aimed at the dental clinic. The signs were not visible from the traffic, but aimed across at the dentist.

Somehow, these goofballs sat there, joking about how others find them to be quacks.

SHEESH.

[adigal]

14. If I had a chronic serious illness, I would definitely use some

Natural healing modalities: acupuncture. Reiki, herbs. We have been sold such a bill of goods by the pharmacies and medical community and have wandered so far from our natural lives, that we no longer even realize many medicines are made of herbs.

[HuckleB]

16. Just because some medicines are made from herbs, doesn't make them all valid.

Reiki is purely magical thinking. Herbs that are actually helpful, have been proven to be helpful. Those that are not, are sold by the alt med community. It's an ugly scam. Acupuncture had plausibility, but it has not panned out. Modern acupuncture, in fact, is really a bizarre hoax.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/puncturing-the-acupuncture-myth/

No one is happy with the pharmaceutical industry. Least of all MDs, NPs, etc... That does not make the alt med scams ok.

[Act_of_Reparation]

17. I admire your patience.

But experience teaches me these people are beyond help. They are liberalism's answer to climate change deniers; their denial is such an intrinsic part of their identity that they will not give it up for mere facts and evidence.

[HuckleB]

18. I wish I was more patient. I'd probably have fewer posts deleted, if that were the case.

Still, Cheers!

[HuckleB]

25. BTW, DU needs more posters to stand up for science based evidence.

It's too easy to be cowed by ugly admonitions, but it's important for the progressive movement to be based in science.

[PasadenaTrudy]

31. I'm trying! n/t

[kcr]

59. Woo supporters tend to be more vocal it seems.

But I do think there are a lot more of us. It just gets tiring doing battle with them all the time. I think there are always many of us reading and supporting. We're always here in spirit.

[adigal]

44. My son had severe asthma. We took him to the best pulmonologists in NYC

We were told to take him to acupuncture by a friend whose son's asthma got better with acupuncture. We took him to acupuncture. Within 2 weeks, 4 visits, his asthma went away and never came back.

I didn't believe it myself, but it really was cured. I don't understand why people are so threatened by alternative treatments when the "real" treatments didn't work, as they didn't with my son, who was on the nebulizer twice a day and always on steroids. So you know what? Don't believe me. I don't care. But I would hate for you to discourage other people with asthma to shun acupuncture, so that is why I responded to your very rude and ignorant post.

Acupuncture did work for my son.End of discussion.

[Act_of_Reparation]

60. The problems with your story have already been examined at length.

Yet you're still here... spouting the same nonsense... illustrating my point precisely.

[adigal]

42. Wow!! Really?? I was going to go out and eat some Oleander!!!!

Duh.

[Logical]

43. Then I suggest you reject all modern medicine! Good luck! nt

[GoneOffShore]

50. "Alternative "Medicine" has either been proven not to work

Or not been proven to work." Tim Minchin

Alternative medicine that works is medicine.

And no, naturopathic 'medicine' is NFM.

Though I still do take aspirin, made from the bark of the willow tree, although I'm highly unlikely to go out and chew on the tree.

Acupuncture - studies have shown(links posted by someone else in this little discourse) that randomly sticking needles has the same placebo effect.

TCM - just a nice cup of tea flavored with potpourri with the occasional fatal side effect and the elimination of rhinos, tigers and other endangered species.

Reiki - waving one's hands about with less effect than playing the Therimin.

[longship]

55. Well, for the Therimin, we still have Pamelia Kurstin.

Not sure if she does Reiki, though.
Or, the monumentally idiotic "therapeutic touch" (which by the way includes no touching).

But mainstream jazz played by a Therimin virtuoso is pretty damned good shit which BTW also requires no touching. However, if one watches and listens to her TED talk, and one understands the science, one realizes why Therimins work and why Reiki and Therapeutic Touch do not.

Enjoy!

[GoneOffShore]

62. Didn't mean to denigrate the Therimin or its players.

Perhaps my analogy was poor.

[longship]

63. Nor did I take it that way.

So, no prob.

I hope you clicked through to the vid. Kurstin is fucking amazing. Her jazz string bass line technique is her invention and is by itself astounding.

[GoneOffShore]

66. I'll be watching it.

Any jazz interests me.

[HuckleB]

33. Thanks for the kick, one of the four people I put on ignore.

Awesome!

[edhopper]

47. thanks HuckleB

Keep lighting that candle.

[pintobean]

48. .

[loyalsister]

61. I have a sister into this crap

She goes on anti-corporate rants, and uses the talking point about how medicines aren't made to cure you, the goal is to make people sicker so that they have to buy more medicine.

I told her that it's no secret that meds often prolong life and people naturally don't always tolerate them well or even if they do respond at first, it doesn't mean they're cured. Medicine never claims to be an exact science.

I also pointed out that the herbs and supplements she takes are produces, sold, and marketed by a corporation somewhere.

[ismnotwasm]

64. No it isn't tenable

I work in transplant and we occationally get a fulminant liver failure case from misuse of naturopathic meds. I'm not "against" naturopathy, I just don't like the ridiculous claims that go along with them. If a cup of camomile tea helps you relax-cool. If you think milk thistle is "protecting" your liver adequately--not only not cool, but dangerous bullshit.

My husband has Multiple Sclerosis--one of the diseases population that snake-oil salesmen love to target. Needless to say perhaps, I am not amused by it, I am furious.

[underahedgerow]

67. My best friend is a qualified Chiropractor. Got her degree in the standard 7 years. She says

chiropractic solves nothing for people. But they like it, they believe it helps, so she continues on with her patients.

She's kind of a rocket scientist, a bit of a genius. If this is her observation, I trust her findings.

I went the chiropractic route for over 20 years to address chronic sciatica and back pain. We never did find the genuine source of the ongoing problems, but what I found is that when I had an episode, I could get the chiropractic treatment and the pain would ease up within about 4-7 days. Since I haven't been in about 10 years, I find the pain subsides in less than a week. (get it?)

On occasion I manage to severely strain my lower back and end up with a lot of impingement through my left buttock. I found a gal who does the most vicious deep tissue massage with immediate relief, and that clears it up in 2 days/2 sessions with a couple of follow up sessions in the week.

I also find that I just have to work and walk through the pain. The pain doesn't keep me from actually doing anything, but it does tire me out. But I still get in the garden, shift the heavy stuff, carry the crap, hike the stairs and do what I do, in spite of the pain. I can't let it own me!

[GoneOffShore]

73. And for another take on the nonsense, the eminently sensible and funny Dara O'Briain

[HuckleB]

74. Such a fantastic piece!

[Marr]

77. I'm always amazed at how much support for medical quackery there is at DU...

...and I've often wondered if it has something to do with having a general, anti-authority sort of mindset. If your first instinct is always to suspect the status quo/established authorities, then so-called 'alternative medicine' might have an appeal.

[CanSocDem]

82. On the other hand...

[LostOne4Ever]

83. One of the bigger dangers of these quacks is that they often act as if they were real physicians. nt