Check in - Christian and proud. Sick and tired of these idiots who give us a bad name

[LynneSin]

Old Testament was our faith's history. It also prophesied the coming of the new Messiah (aka Jesus)

New Testament was really two sections:
- Gospel: The actually story of Jesus including the teachings that he gave to his followers that really should be the basis of our faith.
- The rest of the New Testament which is how our faith was spread after Jesus died and was resurrected. Most of this section include letters and writing from Paul which somehow he gets elevated to almost another Messiah in the Christian faith but technically he really was nobody. He was just one of hundreds of people inspired by Jesus who helped spread the faith and honestly, the very first Christian Fundie.


You'll find two types of Christians out there.

You'll find people like me who stick with what Jesus said. I mean his name was Jesus Christ, our faith is named after him and you'll find that the message that Jesus preached was not filled with anything but love, acceptance, tolerance and peace. If our country lived by the words of Jesus there would be no wars, there would be no hungry children and there would be no homeless. We wouldn't have people denying rights to people who want to marry simply because the couple in question were the same sex. And we wouldn't have 'preachers' scamming on the poor to become filthy rich. None of that is in the Gospel. Heck Jesus wasn't even a fan of organized religion and technically he wasn't even a Christian himself. Personally I see people who call themselves Atheists and ascribe to other faiths who show better Christian values than some so-called Christians out there. Calling oneself a 'Christian' then treating people like shit doesn't make you a better person. I'd rather hang out with people who are non-Christians and treat others with kindness and equality than hang out with the likes of the Duggars or Pat Robertson or that idiot lady in Kentucky.

And for those of you who think it's just a silly book or made of fairy tales. Maybe it is. But I still believe that Jesus was someone who was a part of this world who tried to make this world a better place who tried to teach people that those old testament laws were bullshit. Perfect example - when Jesus was asked to throw the first stone at a woman who was accused of Adultery (common practiced based on the laws of Leviticus). Jesus said 'he who is without sin let them cast the first stone'. This is why I pretty much scream bullshit to all those rules in Leviticus - that book is not an 'All you can eat buffet' where you pick the ones you can use to make your life a happy place. They are stupid and not to be used in any part of the Christian Faith.

I am proud I am a Christian but I fight back against the abuse of my faith with these idiots out there that ignore the Gospel and do batshit crazy things in the name of my religion. But there are good Christians out there and good Christians here at DU too!

[Oneironaut]

1. What I find funny is people say that the Bible is God's

word, and must be followed or else, but cherry pick from it. It must be be weird living with that kind of cognitive dissonance. For example: Getting a divorce, but thinking homosexuality dooms you to hell.

[LynneSin]

4. But then why would God have bother sending us Jesus

The whole point was God was the bastard in the old testament and the faith was one of these cruel laws with archaic style punishments. Jesus was suppose to be the New Covenant - if you read the Gospels there are several times where he was asked about Old Testament laws and outside of the 10 Commandments (which let's face it those are common sense ones like no lying, killing, stealing) he pretty much doesn't talk about any of them. Instead he talks about not judging others and to love one another and treating others with respect.

The bible was created about 300 years after the death of Jesus and sometimes I think they included the writings of Paul because in the end Jesus was a bit too radical of a change and Paul kinda looped people back in with 'Well you still need to go to Church and be organized and obedient'. There are some amazing Gnostic Gospels out there that show a very radical change from the way it use to be done in the Old Testament that the Nicene Council just couldn't include or it really would have just wrecked organized religion as we know it.

[KamaAina]

37. Or getting three divorces

[Stargazer99]

2. thank you for explaining exactly how I feel

I've never put it in words like you did but I clarifies to me how I see it.

[ryan_cats]

3. Have you read the Bible?

Have you read the Bible?

You'll find people like me who stick with what Jesus said. I mean his name was Jesus Christ, our faith is named after him and you'll find that the message that Jesus preached was not filled with anything but love, acceptance, tolerance and peace.

I'm sure the moneychangers enjoyed Jesus's tolerance.

The rest of the New Testament which is how our faith was spread after Jesus died and was resurrected. Most of this section include letters and writing from Paul which somehow he gets elevated to almost another Messiah in the Christian faith but technically he really was nobody.

Ever hear of or read of the road to Damascus?

[LynneSin]

7. My answers

Moneychangers - what they were doing in the Church offended Jesus. Technically the moneychangers were the bankers. Tolerance has its time and place but standing up to people doing wrong is never a bad thing. Standing up to a couple who want to marry who happen to be the same sex - that is intolerance. Standing up to people doing something non-church like in the a church I think Jesus had room to do something about that.

As for the Road to Damascus remember this - everyone had their own path to discovering Christianity that was 'eye-opening'. Paul was needed by the Nicene Council (the people who assembled the bible) because Jesus' message was too radical for Organized Religion. They didn't want people to leave the Church and feel they could be independent and worship God but to still rely heavily on attending Church and remaining faithful to the laws decreed upon them by Church Elders. Paul's message fit perfect for Organized Religion. Personally I find Paul annoying and the basis of too much fundamentalism in this country. He is everything wrong with the Christian faith today. Paul was never prophesied like Jesus, he never met Jesus and he never met the disciples. He was nothing more than one of the hundreds that wrote about his experiences with the Christian faith that happened to be selected for the bible. Sometimes when I read about what Jesus said about anti-Christs in the Gospels, I think Paul is a perfect candidate for one because even Paul once stated he was a Messiah.

[hunter]

87. My mom finds Paul much more than "annoying," and is outspoken about it.

When I was a kid discussions about religion, within our family, or within any Christian community our family hadn't yet been expelled from, were fraught with danger.

My mom is the sort of person who always says what she thinks to anyone. She'd argue with the Pope. She'll argue with God.

Many of her ancestors had landed in the U.S. "Wild West" because they were pacifists and heretics escaping Europe and the U.S. Civil War. They ended up being non-Mormons in what became Mormon territory. My mom's dad, went so far as to be a Conscientious Objector during World War II. They gave him a choice: prison or building Liberty and Victory ships. He was a welder, he built ships. He also got beaten by the police for protesting the Japanese internment.

I live in a very matriarchal family. My great grandmas were Wild West fierce. The men in our family respect the religion of their wives.

Starting school I was a Jehovah's Witness. My mom was fiercely rebelling against the Catholic Church at the time, she'd once wanted to be a nun, but an encounter with a leering, smoking, drinking priest turned her away from that path. She met my dad, they married, and had lots of kids.

Being the kid who sat out the Pledge added to my aura of weirdness. My fourth grade teacher went so far as to use me as an example of religious freedom in the U.S.A.. I think she meant well, but all those eyes on me, I had to run away.

My mom got kicked out of the Jehovah's Witnesses for her outspoken participation in politics, and then we were Quaker. Quakers could listen respectfully to my mom and then move on without fireworks.

I live in a liberal Catholic Community. Our Parish was strongly against the war in Iraq and is very strongly supportive of immigrant's civil rights. My wife and I raised our kids Catholic and I don't feel bad about that. As adults our kids are the same sort of heretics as everyone in our family because they were never taught to respect certain sorts of "authority" or to passively accept any kind of punishment, either real, or as a threat.

"Questioning authority" in our family has never been a sin.

[LynneSin]

88. I'd argue with the Pope but was more with the last one

I actually like this Pope, he's probably one of the most progressive popes ever to be out there. I find myself identifying more with Pope Francis than with any other Catholic authority figure EVER.

Paul is an anti-christ who contradicts Jesus and the bane of all our Christian issues today. He is the Messiah that the Fundies worship - not Jesus. That's my two cents and I'm sticking with it.

[pnwmom]

77. We know what Paul was supposed to have said about Damascus -- not what Jesus said. n/t

[el_bryanto]

5. I am a Christian but think this would be better posted in the Religion Forum. nt

[LynneSin]

8. Once in a blue moon I want people to see this

We get ripped to shreds when idiots like that Clerk pull stunts like that.

We need to be heard. Those idiots are nothing more that the Christian Isis. Sure they are vocal but they are NOT the mainstay of our faith.

[shenmue]

6. Here

Does anybody care what the OP asked for, or are you just going to flame-throw with everything you don't like about religion anyway?

There are liberals who have faith, and we are allowed to talk about it.

[Agschmid]

10. Kick.

[11 Bravo]

11. I'm in. (Now I just hope I don't go to Hell for ...

agreeing with a Philadelphia Eagles fan. Surely that must be some kind of a sin!)

[LynneSin]

13. Hey as long as you aren't a Cowboys fan we're good

[11 Bravo]

24. It's worse than that. I'm a Skins fan.

Dear Lord, please bring back Jack Kent Cooke and somehow convince Jerry Jones to sell the dog-ass Dallas Cowboys to Daniel Snyder.

[LynneSin]

25. Like I said, as long as you aren't a Cowboys fan we're good

because even Skins fans are better than Cowboy fans.

Because in the end Giants fans, Eagles fans and Skins fans we all have one thing in common - we all hate the Cowboys more than anyone else in the our own division!

[jwirr]

12. Agreed. I often find myself agreeing with non-Christians

on this board because they are totally correct if they are talking about the rw fundies and their ideas.

And I realize that most here understand that there are liberal Christians so I take the "Christian" and other insults with a grain of salt knowing that it is the rw fundies they are talking about.

I kind of look at the idea of arguing as an issue of the separation of Church and State. The issue here on DU is not what I personally believe but what I want from government.

Occasionally I do post my own interpretation of my faith when someone like Pat Buchannan and Ted Cruz try to push their ideas. My reason is not to convert but to show how they have taken a centuries old religion and changed it into a hate and profits message for the 1%.

[LynneSin]

15. People like Ted Cruz and Pat Buchannon use the bible for selfish purposes

and for prophet. They abandoned Jesus a long time ago.

I think that's a big reason for the use of that Leviticus verse about Homosexuality which from what I read technically was about Baal False Idol worship and nothing to do with homosexuality.

I have always been the first to admit I wasn't the most accepting of the LGBTQ community but I also admit I grew up in rural Pennsylvania where there was much ignorance in these areas. And that's the thing - it was ignorance. I think the issue at hand was what Gays and Lesbians were actually doing and when you think about it - it was so UNNATURAL' I mean men doing THAT to each other - ewwwwwww!!! ( ). If you are a straight person raised all of your life in the church expecting one day to be married and have babies to be told that men can do that to each other, it can seem kinda gross. And I think there is a big focus on that which is why these so-called Christians turn to the bible - they cannot wrap their heads around what they find utterly repulsive.

Maybe at one point I felt the same way.

Then I realized something. Straight people they aren't all about the missionary position day in and day out. And honestly, why are we even caring what people are doing in the bedroom, why is it my business what people do behind closed doors? It's private business no matter what the sexual orientation is of the couple - are they consenting adults? If so then I should be minding my own beeswax!

In the end this whole thing about the same sex marriage - to the homophobic person they are still trying to get a grip on what the couple is doing in the bedroom. They can't get over it, they are repulsed and they will use the bible to justify their repulsion. But for the rest of us who actually know how to think, we've evolve past allowing a book to tell us how to think, we realize it's not about what goes on in a bedroom but it's about two people in love. And in the end if two people are in love that the most important thing in the world.

I've maybe been lucky to have been in love once in my lifetime and I hope maybe I'll find it again. But when two people can find love, why should anyone deny those two consenting adults the right to form a lifetime commitment together so they can share that love. Progressive people see marriage equality about love and commitment and I think that is what Jesus taught us too!

[jwirr]

20. I was lucky enough to have grown up poor. Judging

others did not come easy for me even if someone tried to teach me to do it.

And many issues in our rural area were just not talked about even in church. I am darn glad it was that way. Not a lot of preconceived ideas when I finally went to college.

[DFW]

14. I have no problem with proud Christians

As long as THEY have no problem with people who are just as proud not to be.

The word "faith" means you BELIEVE something. No argument there.

It's when they KNOW something, and all other beliefs are therefore wrong, that I have a problem.

[LynneSin]

16. I know non-Christians with strong faith than so-called Christians out there

Just because one might say 'I'm not a Christian' doesn't mean one isn't following the lessons that Jesus has taught us in the bible.

When you read the 'Red Letters' of the Gospels - the words that Jesus spoke - those are the words of a man who taught us to be compassionate towards others. And remember this is a guy who was never a Christian, that religion came about 50 years after his death.

Faith and Religion can be to very different things - I usually avoid the religious types like the plague because they tend to cherry pick random bible verses to justify their hate. I stick with the Gospels so I can justify why I want to be a more compassionate, care person who tries to be tolerant towards other. But just like Jesus was with the Moneychangers in the Church - I also have my limits too.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. It's fun to pretend it is 'those others' but it is a fact that DU loves the Pope, who is also

opposed to marriage equality and who also takes political action against it. Oh, those terrible Duggars, they are not like 'real Christians'. Well while Josh Duggar was working for Tony Perkins at FRC, FRC and Perkins were invited guests of the Vatican at a 3 day conference against marriage equality in Rome, organized by the Vatican and starring keynote speaker and DU poster boy Pope Francis.
So Francis is good and Duggars are bad, but Francis invites Duggar's boss to plot how to best oppose marriage equality which is what Duggar's job with the Pope's pal is about.

DU and the faith community have not really made up their minds. When they see the full tilt low brow like Davis, they know it is bad. But dressed up like Francis and speaking in translated liturgical language they do not recognize the very same brand of bigotry and intolerance. They recognize Duggar, but not not his bosses or their powerful allies.

[closeupready]

23. DU loves the Pope, hates Muslims, and thinks as long as it's "just one prayer"

it's okay to be homophobic.

[KamaAina]

38. DU hates Muslims?

O rly?

[closeupready]

39. From what I've seen, yes.

[LynneSin]

74. Well someone posted it so it must be true

I think the rest of us know better!

[RobertEarl]

18. Peace, Sister

Jesus was a socialist, homeless man who survived from the goodness of others. And killed by the hand of the establishment.

[snooper2]

19. So are you supposed to kill your neighbor for working on Sunday or not?

[jwirr]

22. Only if he is mowing the lawn at 7 in the morning!

[LynneSin]

26. Or running the f*)#$)% leaf blower

That's in my newly updated bible!

[Scootaloo]

28. You are not responsible for your co-religionists

Anyone who holds that you are is an asshole and should be ignored with thoroughness and aplomb.

I don't share your religion, LynneSin, but I do share your sentiments

[LynneSin]

34. I don't ask you to share my religion because to me religion is a personal choice

and thus I don't force you to live your life according to my religious choices because again how you live is your personal choice.

[Sunlei]

31. This is my measure of who's a real follower of their God/Religion or not.

“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

[Arugula Latte]

41. You don't need religion for that.

[Sunlei]

43. You're right,Religion doesn't matter. Bonus is, the golden rule is in the Christians' bible.

[Ilsa]

76. If I'm not mistaken, a paraphrasing of The Golden Rule is

a part of a dozen or more religions. Personally, I think it's stated most eloquently in Christian Bibles.

Count me in with this "out" crowd. It's been a long journey for me, but where I am feeling happier is with a community of believers.

[xmas74]

32. I'm in.

I don't always agree with my church but I do my best to simply love my neighbors. Some days are better than others.

[sarisataka]

33. It's hard to remember

All of those Old Testament rules. I like that Jesus simplified it for me

Matthew 22:36-40New International Version (NIV)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Since He is telling me how to act, I can allow the same to others. You have a different belief, or none, fine that is your choice.
As for my neighbor, I don't see any qualifiers. Staight, gay, white, black, brown, native, immigrant... Nope none of those exceptions. Therefore everyone must be my neighbor.

That's easy, I like easy.

[steve2470]

35. There is a huge difference between the Christian Left and the Christian Right

The Christian Left focuses only on what Jesus actually* said and preached, and is non-controlling and nonjudgmental. The Christian Right, of course, is totally the opposite and focuses way too much on the Old Testament. IMHO most of the Old Testament is just wrong. The Christian Left focuses much more on poverty and social justice issues, and the Christian Right conveniently glosses over those.

It took me too many years to realize I could be a very liberal Christian instead of a Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, etc. In my area, the right wingers are very vocal and numerous.

I'm happy to be a very liberal Christian, but faith should be kept out of the public sphere. You'll never catch me advocating the imposition of my beliefs on others.


*- according to the Bible. Yes, I know there is a huge debate about this, which I don't care to engage in.

[Staph]

36. I'm in.

The Jesus that I have learned about from reading the New Testament is a loving, accepting man who hung out with the unacceptables of his time -- the poor, the sick, a bunch of fisherman who walked off the job to follow him, a woman with mental issues, an adulterer, a Roman tax farmer -- it goes on and on. He pushed back against the fundamentalists of his time -- the money changers in the temple were there to change your cash into the "right" money so that you could buy your religious sacrifices with proper currency.

Jesus followed the Ten Commandments -- and ignored Leviticus.

Most of the fundamentalists that I've listened to are Old Testament christians or Paulists. Those who attend my church (and others I know who are liberal Christians) believe that we should care for others (whatever their religion), those who are hungry or homeless or sick or in need of someone who will listen.

Don't tar us with the fundamentalist brush.

[steve2470]

42. +1 nt

[Rex]

40. I am glad to hear this, more Christians like yourself need to stand up and be heard.

If you ever want the perception of Christianity to step out of the Dark Ages, you will have to stand up and speak up. Stop letting these fundies control your religion and the airwaves with their hatefest news 24/7.

They've completely warped the meaning of the Bible and Christ and it is up to those of true faith to change that. Otherwise people will always heep scorn on the religion due to they only know of people such as Pat and Bakker that run the hatefest gauntlet.

No matter what anyone will say, the Bible is one of the most important pieces of literature in Western Civilization. How it's history continues to unfold is up to people like you. Or people like Robertson. Barf.

Goodluck.

[Nye Bevan]

44. I'm more of a Jimmy Carter Christian than a Kim Davis Christian (nt)

[LynneSin]

75. We need more Jimmy Carters in this world

probably one of the best Christians out there who would rather do good works the to say a bunch of judgemental words.

[hamsterjill]

45. Checking in. Right there with you.

Christian and proud, but ashamed of the way some have hijacked the message of peace and forgiveness and turned it into hate and greed.

For me, I've simply never felt it necessary to try to force my beliefs onto anyone else. Even if I were trying to convert someone, I'm smart enough to understand that anyone is going to react negatively to being FORCED to do anything.

Live and let live.

[Liberal Jesus Freak]

46. Thank you Lynne!

It's good to know that there are people who get it...even democrats can have faith My husband attended Morehead State University in Rowan County. My parents are from Eastern Kentucky. We KNOW these types of folks and we're not them. Thank you for a thoughtful and loving essay

[LanternWaste]

47. To be honest, I don't think I'd be a Democrat if I were not Christian.

To be honest, I don't think I'd be a Democrat if I were not Christian. It was specifically the teachings of my church that compelled me to invest in politics as an adult; and looking at the two platforms though a Christian lens gave me only one viable and valid choice.

[LiberalAndProud]

53. Funny.

I am aware of many atheists who became more politically liberal after surrendering their supernatural beliefs. The excuse, "Because God said so," can only be compelling if you are religious.

I used to be a liberal Christian. I found I didn't leave my thirst for justice behind when I abandoned those beliefs.

[LanternWaste]

55. The journeys we make as individuals may often be quite singular and rather unique

The journeys of both inward and outward discoveries we make as individuals may often be quite singular and rather unique, regardless of what we abandon or embrace.

[LiberalAndProud]

56. That is very true, and I think that our religious liberties are very precious.

But I will never fail to point out that the very nature of Christian values is the subject of great debate among the various flavors of Christian. I tend to think that in the case of liberal Christianity, moral values inform the religion rather more than the reverse.

[Skittles]

57. you don't need religion to think or do the right thing

not at ALL

[mnhtnbb]

68. Amen to that!

[Logical]

58. So you use your religion to decide to be democrat, and they use it and decided to be republican. nt

[J_J_]

48. Thank you for writing this

The fundies continual 'praying in public' and taking hypocrisy to new levels was exactly the opposite of Jesus' teachings

[LynneSin]

49. I see them as more Paulists than Christians

Matthew 6:5-6

That's what I think about Public Praying

[phylny]

50. Checking in!

I'm a bleeding heart liberal Christian who lives in a very red, very fundamentalist, evangelical part of Virginia. It's a challenge being lumped in with people who are intolerant and hateful, as many of my neighbors are.

[Warpy]

51. Two of my favorite people online are Christians who know their bibles

particularly well. One is Methodist and the other is Baptist. Both spend a lot of their time picking fundy zealots to pieces and rubbing their noses in what's left. I can't overstate the importance of Christians taking these cretins who have stolen the name to justify their bigotry to task.

I can call them out on their bigotry, greed, and overall nastiness. However, to be effective, it takes a fellow Christian to call them out on their blasphemy.

[J_J_]

54. yes [phone]

" I can't overstate the importance of Christians taking these cretins who have stolen the name to justify their bigotry to task."

Rather than bash Christians or Christianity, people need to expose their hypocrisy.

It would be a much nicer world if the phony republican Christians actually read and followed the Bible.

[El Supremo]

52. Pride is a sin.

I'm just a miserable sinner. Not proud of my Christianity but motivated by it.

Oh, "Christ" is a title not a surname. I prefer the older expression "Jesus The Christ".

[MuttLikeMe]

59. Fellow believer here, saying "Amen"!

[Warren Stupidity]

60. They are not "abusing your faith" any more than you are abusing theirs.

The intolerant authoritarian side of christianity is just as credible as the tolerant communitarian side. For every interpretation of the dubious ancient texts you can bring forth to "prove" your's is the true christianity, they can counter with an equally valid interpretation of the same texts to prove that theirs is the true christianity. They think you are ignoring the gospel and doing batshit crazy things in the name of their religion.

[Logical]

61. Good points. There are 100s of religions. All made up stuff. nt

[mnhtnbb]

69. There are 100's of religions. Precisely. There are 100's of Christian denominations

all emphasizing different things.

It would be impossible to accommodate the beliefs of everyone when performing
a secular job. So quite obviously the answer is to let people believe whatever
they choose, but when it comes time to do the government job--where law rules,
not any personal interpretation of a religious document--the law must be followed.
If you can't follow the law because of your personal religious views, then get
another job where you can.

End of story.

[rug]

62. That's like saying fans of Nickelback are as credible as their critics.

[Humanist_Activist]

94. Actually that's an excellent analogy, there is no objective standard, its...

purely subjective.

[PeaceNikki]

91. This ^

[brer cat]

63. Well said, LynneSin.

I am comfortable with my faith. I have nothing in common with fundamentalists of any religion, and wish that others could recognize that we are not all cut from the same cloth.

[AlinPA]

64. I probably have paid too much attention to the nutcase "Christians" and their leaders because

I have just about given up on religion and my church altogether.

[lunamagica]

65. K&R. Geat Post.eom

[Aristus]

66. Christian, and......

...Liberal till I DIE!...

[Maeve]

67. Hiya, Lynne

I've reached the point of calling myself Post-Christian. I still believe many of the things Jesus taught--love, not judging (okay, that's hard!), treating people fairly and equally (God sends the rain on the just and unjust alike)...but I also realize that I'm not sick and get tired of people insisting I have the drink their medicine. As Carlin said, (sort of) if you need the lifts in your shoes to walk straight, that's fine; but don't try to nail them to MY feet.

When I screw up, I believe I can be forgiven, so I don't wallow in self-pity and misery. That's self-destructive. I go on and try to do better. And I try to let others live and love as they see fit as long as they aren't hurting themselves or others in this life--let God sort the next life out. But I can't call myself Christian anymore. The brand is too damaged.

[mnhtnbb]

70. I am probably pretty close to the same place.

There was a time in my life--a lot of years, actually--when I faithfully attended church. I even
sang in several church choirs. I was much more attracted to the concepts of social justice, helping
the poor, standing up for those without power, working for peace, and so on. I did not like the
way women were devalued in many Christian organizations. I certainly did not like any of the
fundamentalist types hijacking the name of "Christian" to support their bigotry, misogyny, and racism.

About 15 years ago--when we moved to Chapel Hill--I gave up going to church. I just didn't want
to have any more to do with the patriarchal structure. Maeve, I like your line "The brand is too damaged."
Nicely put.

On edit: I have two women friends locally who are ministers: one is Methodist and the other is an Episcopalian
priest. They both are terrific at taking down the arguments fundamentalists resort to in trying to rationalize
their prejudices and hate.

[Maeve]

71. I have friends who are good Christians, too

And family members who attend churches that constantly bear false witness against Obama, gays, liberals...I sang in the choir, I even taught religion classes. I was a convert with a convert's zeal. Until the emphasis was switched from God's love to man's hate and I no longer felt welcome. Leaving was a hard, painful choice, but staying would have shriveled my soul.
Thanks for sharing. Sometimes being churchless still feels lonely.

[LynneSin]

73. My church is the world around me

actually there are some good churches out there that stick with the message of love and not hate. You might fight a new one to call home!

[mcar]

72. Very well stated

Thank you LynneSin.

[pnwmom]

78. Did you know that Thomas Jefferson created his own version of the Christian Bible,

snipping out only those parts that he thought could be attributed to Jesus and leaving the rest?

Probably a lot of us do that, some more consciously than others.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/how-thomas-jefferson-created-his-own-bible-5659505/?no-ist

Thomas Jefferson, together with several of his fellow founding fathers, was influenced by the principles of deism, a construct that envisioned a supreme being as a sort of watchmaker who had created the world but no longer intervened directly in daily life. A product of the Age of Enlightenment, Jefferson was keenly interested in science and the perplexing theological questions it raised. Although the author of the Declaration of Independence was one of the great champions of religious freedom, his belief system was sufficiently out of the mainstream that opponents in the 1800 presidential election labeled him a “howling Atheist.”

In fact, Jefferson was devoted to the teachings of Jesus Christ. But he didn’t always agree with how they were interpreted by biblical sources, including the writers of the four Gospels, whom he considered to be untrustworthy correspondents. So Jefferson created his own gospel by taking a sharp instrument, perhaps a penknife, to existing copies of the New Testament and pasting up his own account of Christ’s philosophy, distinguishing it from what he called “the corruption of schismatizing followers.”

The second of the two biblical texts he produced is on display through May 28 at the Albert H. Small Documents Gallery of the Smithsonian National Museum of American History (NMAH) after a year of extensive repair and conservation. “Other aspects of his life and work have taken precedence,” says Harry Rubenstein, chair and curator of the NMAH political history division. “But once you know the story behind the book, it’s very Jeffersonian.”

Jefferson produced the 84-page volume in 1820—six years before he died at age 83—bound it in red leather and titled it The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth. He had pored over six copies of the New Testament, in Greek, Latin, French and King James English. “He had a classic education at [the College of] William & Mary,” Rubenstein says, “so he could compare the different translations. He cut out passages with some sort of very sharp blade and, using blank paper, glued down lines from each of the Gospels in four columns, Greek and Latin on one side of the pages, and French and English on the other.”


SNIP

[LostOne4Ever]

79. I know I am going to get a ton of shit for this...but I have a question

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]If I posted a thread and said:[/font]

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"] "If our country lived by [font size=5 color=crimson face=papyrus]rejecting religion[/font] there would be no wars, there would be no hungry children and there would be no homeless. We wouldn't have people denying rights to people who want to marry simply because the couple in question were the same sex. And we wouldn't have 'preachers' scamming on the poor to become filthy rich."

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Would I get praise for this? Or condemned?

I get that you are trying to be positive. I get that you are wanting to promote liberal Christianity. But I am having a hard time getting past that.[/font]

[trotsky]

90. GREAT point.

Thank you for that. I wonder if anyone will comment.

[raouldukelives]

80. There is nobody trumpeting Leviticus who is a Christian.

Being a Christian means one has accepted Christ. By practicing the old ways one is showing how much of a belief in him they truly have.

There is nobody who profits from the suffering of others, whether by investments or labor, that is a Christian.

It is why the way is considered narrow and rocky. It isn't a cakewalk. The last must be put first. As long as we all did that, being last would start being a lot easier.

I always find the disconnect quite humorous. How one can read they are supposed to pray in private, not appear higher than the lowest stations in public and to not lust after material wealth and then they turn around and defy all of them daily.

It is why most give up. Better to pray to a God who thinks profits from war, environmental destruction of his creation and the subjugation and enslavement of others is hunky dory. Otherwise, being a Christian would be hard.

[whatthehey]

81. Good - now what do you do about them?

Last edited Mon Sep 7, 2015, 12:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Christian extremists speak for your religion because you let them.

They pour their money into huge programs that energize millions to support their wannabe theocracy. Why don't the supposedly far more numerous liberal believers do the same to speak for a kinder gentler faith? Why is Spong buried on page 27 of the low-circulation high end glossies and Robertson blared from the front pages of the mass media and watched by millions? Because the latter put in the effort and the money to make it happen. Is there NO liberal believer with that ability? Seems that way to the outside.

They get free rein to express their nuttery under the name of your religion without vocal criticism because any time anyone on the secular side says "prove it" to their wild ravings, liberal believers jump into immediate lockstep with their loony brothers in faith and turn aghast at the shocking insulting verminous behavior that requires evidence before making a claim (see the poisonous religion forum here).

They get to torture their kids to death by withholding medical care, kill them by perpetuating medieval lunacy like exorcisms, write bestselling books about beating them into submission and sometimes death and turn their wives and daughters into brainless brood mares because Christians use your insurmountable voting supermajority to maintain laws that protect them in the name of "free exercise" even when there is no constitutional protection for such horrors (as evidenced by just one state, far more secular than most, removing religious shield laws - Oregon in 2011. Why hasn't every single liberal church filed amicus briefs to speak up against this? Atheist groups did, but we are few and reviled and marginalized. You rule the nation, but don't want to annoy your supposed "fringe" it seems).

It may seem to you brave and noble to speak up against RW theo-nutbaggery and for "real" Christianity here, but it's not needed here. It's needed in the media when every organization that has a heavy presence for faith is on the far right. It's needed at protests and marches when the hateful bigots come out with their crosses and their bible verses by the thousands and you guys come in one Volvo if at all. It's needed in the political arena when churches poured millions into the homophobic side of Prop 8 and a few bucks on the decent side. They had a non-stop media barrage telling us that God hates gays, you guys managed a couple of meek letters to the editor in the more liberal press.

If liberal believers really cared about improving the vile loathsome reputation of organized Christianity in America, you'd do something to change it. You, supposedly have the numbers. Why let the fascist theocrats hide behind you? Why protect them from the secular criticism and challenges? Why aren't you guys starting the criticism and the challenges where it really matters?

[LynneSin]

82. We're trying. They're better funded but we're trying

That's all I can say.

[kwassa]

83. The media doesn't listen to us. We are entirely too normal.

You yourself believe we don't do it because you haven't seen it.

We do it, but the media doesn't report it, or if it does, gives little play to it. It isn't shocking or controversial enough to be considered news when people act in a normal and compassionate way.

Edit to add example:

http://nationalcouncilofchurches.us/news/archive.php

This will show you what progressive Christians are up to at the National Council of Churches, with various links.

[whatthehey]

85. Did Robertson et al whine about being ignored in the beginning?

No. They started their own media. They made their own reputations. They forced the movers and shakers to pay attention because they proved they had followers who would be reliable voters and donors and volunteers if the powers that be played along. Why don't you?

You seem to think I don't pay attention. This is not true. But what I see in that attention is milquetoast frippery as far as moving the cultural needle, especially compared to the theocrazies. There are two, and only two scenarios.

1) Liberal Christians lack the numbers and cohesion to "take back" Christianity from their fundy brothers in faith, in which case you are wrong and what real Christianity is in the US has become what they say it is.

2) Liberal Christians have the numbers and cohesion but lack the will to reclaim the faith's reputation, in which case why should anyone outside Christianity care about the supposed kinder gentler side if you don't care enough yourselves to make that, not fire and brimstone hate, the faith's public face.

[kwassa]

98. Frankly, I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Your analysis is off.

Nobody owns Christianity, because there is no single agreed definition of what being a Christian is, and there never will be. Many of the fundies don't even consider us Christian in the first place. The very reasons so many Protestant denominations exist is because of these basic disagreements.

The fundies will pay no more attention to us than they will to atheists, quite frankly.

And, the fundamentalist problem is not the responsibility of just liberal Christians to solve. They have no greater responsibility than you do.

[riderinthestorm]

84. I keep wondering why this thread doesn't have hundreds of names, a few thousand views

I'm responsible for at least 10 views as I keep checking this to see who has "checked in".

Is it possible there's really only @ 50 Christians here?

I'm not a Christian so I'm not checking in as one, simply stopping to see whose gathering.

Anyway, a kick for your thread Lynn! You're one of the best of us here and I really like your OP!

[jcboon]

86. Good post-checking in

[trotsky]

89. "people like me who stick with what Jesus said"

You realize that's what the right-wingers claim too, right?

You also realize that "what Jesus said" is painfully open to interpretation - sometimes WILDLY VARYING interpretation, right?

[Humanist_Activist]

93. Not to mention they don't stick to everything Jesus said, that would be...

rather embarrassing or morally questionable, at best.

[trotsky]

95. Yeah, I stick with everything Jesus said.

Except the parts I don't think I should.

That pretty much covers everyone, doesn't it?

[Humanist_Activist]

96. Liberal or Conservative, even Fundamentalists all have selective reading...

as to how and what their God/Jesus/Holy Spirit actually behaves or says in the Bible.

All are cafeteria Christians, hell, if any of them actually tried to behave as Jesus wanted them to, they would be in jail or prison.

[Humanist_Activist]

92. Honestly, Jesus wasn't that good a moral teacher, your highly selective reading of the...

Gospels allow for you to create a character that is your ideal. Obviously there is a lot that Jesus allegedly said that you discard as being...uncomfortable. For example, condemning unbelievers to hell.

Also, a note, its really, really insulting to equate the use of "Christian" with "good". Christian values? Where?

Also, pride goeth before the fall, or something to that effect. I find it really ironic that you embrace one of the so called "Deadly Sins" along with your Christianity.

[st17011864200074656]

97. I would like to hear a liberal Christian response to this concern abouth their religion.

I posted similar thoughts on another thread, but here, hopefully, they will stand a better chance of being addressed.

My issue with Christianity is its core teaching that due to the misdeeds of Adam and Eve, in the beginning, I am, in 2015, cursed to be intrinsically evil and wicked. I have no choice in the matter; they screwed up, and I have to pay the price. The price of course is condemnation to hell for my evilness and wickedness, which makes me a sinner. Christianity teaches me that because I am a sinner,I deserve to go to Hell.

The way to avoid Hell is not to become a better person morally, that's impossible due to my fallen sinful nature, but to cast my wicked and evil deeds onto a perfectly innocent scapegoat, Jesus thus escaping the condemnation that I deserve. As the Bible says, it's the only to get out of the predicament of sin.

I don't believe I deserve Hell, and therefore have no need for Jesus to save me from it; therefore, according to your religion, I'm not only definitely going to Hell, but I deserve to go. Can you see where being proud of a religion that holds those beliefs may strike people as the opposite of love, acceptance, tolerance, and peace?