The LGBT community used to be thought by many

[MannyGoldstein]

Last edited Fri Sep 4, 2015, 04:18 PM - Edit history (4)

to be composed of unsavory people. People with a mental illness. People you'd never let near your kids. Then, over the past 30 years, they became tolerable, then they became just folks. Of course, they've always been just folks; only perceptions have changed. The irrational haters were wrong, and still are.

Same-sex marriage was unthinkable. Now it is law.

A black President could never be elected in my lifetime. I'm still alive, and here we are.

Long-established realities can become what were we thinkings? faster than most of us remember.

And it will be that way with Democratic Socialism, I think. Socialism has been a scary word, but people will quickly realize that Democratic Socialism isn't a religious issue; it may be the only way to save our planet and to provide decent lives for all its inhabitants.

Thanks, Bernie, for teaching this class.

[PatrickforO]

1. Yes! Thank you Bernie.

The US should have become a Democratic Socialist nation many years ago. We almost got there with the New Deal, but not quite.

[Bluenorthwest]

2. We were not unsavory, we were libled and slandered and mischaracterized

by bigoted, dishonest straight people. It was not us who were unsavory, it was the bigoted liars who were unsavory and it is the same today. It has not changed.

[csziggy]

5. I was about to post an objection to the characterization in the OP

People in the LGBT community were harassed and persecuted, marginalized unless they hid who they really were. That in itself could cause emotional and mental problems but those problems were not and are not inherent in the community.

To compare the systemic abuse of LGBT people to the mis-characterization of a political philosophy is bizarre and unsavory.

[DonCoquixote]

28. mark the words "used to be thought by many"

key words "thought by many", as in,

just like world was thought by many to be flat, we know that those who thought that way were dead wrong.

Manny is not making a slur here, because he is saying the people who thought those things about LGBT people have been PROVEN WRONG.

Which means people who think those things about LGBT might as well be treated like those who think Ships can fall off the edge of the earth.

[MineralMan]

30. That's not how it read until just a few minutes ago. Here's

the original title, with one minor fix:

"The LGBT community used to be composed of unsavory people"

Different, huh?

[DonCoquixote]

32. ok,

I was not there for that part...

[MannyGoldstein]

35. And again...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7140848

[Bluenorthwest]

63. Manny edited the OP. Manny never acknowledged my post about the original text either.

Instead he edited it and attacked again. Good game you guys have running here. Like Jr High.

[MannyGoldstein]

70. Because the original text was fine for people

with even moderate reading comprehension skills. As was written downthread:

"anyone with a post 8th grade reading comprehension level can see the OP was using a rhetorical device to show how attitudes have changed"

[yardwork]

72. Gay people used as a rhetorical device. We don't need your exploitation.

Anyone with minimal political skills would recognize that pissing off members of your base is a dumb strategy.

[MannyGoldstein]

80. Please look up "rhetorical device" in the dictionary

and revisit your use of that phrase. It's difficult to argue with non sequiturs.

[Smarmie Doofus]

79. Good grief it's fine.

The lengths to which some people will go to hide behind and USE ( YES, *USE*) their historical marginalization....to change the subject is beginning to make me sick.

Only Jews can have an opinion about the Holocaust.
Only AA s can have an opinion about slavery and racism.
Only LGBT's can have an opinion about homophobia.


I am so sick of this whiny, whimpering, dishonest, manipulative bullshit.

For the record, I'm LGBT and you can use me as a "rhetorical device" any friggin' time you please. AND you are entitled to have an opinion on the topic.... EVEN IF YOU'RE STRAIGHT!

Just make a good argument. (Which you almost always do.)

[Hassin Bin Sober]

86. thank you

This thread has now reached ludicrous speed.

http://m.

[hifiguy]

3. Yep.

Bernie was decades in front of the curve.

[MineralMan]

4. I think AutoCorrect has scrambled your post title.

Either that or you left out some word. As it is, it's pretty ugly, really, and doesn't make grammatical sense. You might take another look at your wording and consider a change.

[MannyGoldstein]

6. Missing a word.

Added a clarification sentence as well.

[Bluenorthwest]

7. Manny, people used to say the world was flat. The world was not flat.

The world was not flat, then later round. Gay people were not unsavory, straight people were lying bigots who were careless with their words. Your OP title is a fucking lie.

[MannyGoldstein]

12. I think the meaning is clear, in context. But

do you know what *was* a lie"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6182955
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6193133

Still awaiting an apology.

[Bluenorthwest]

19. The meaning is clear, you are intentionally insulting LGBT people.

Clear as a bell and not the first time for it either speaking of context.

[MineralMan]

8. I believe you made it worse, actually.

But, oh well...I won't suggest any other changes.

[MannyGoldstein]

13. I expected that you would. nt

[yardwork]

9. This is the kind of support that irritates people and drives them away.

In an effort to encourage people to vote for Bernie Sanders, your post is a gratuitous slam on gay people. And the irony and cognitive dissonance of your use of the phrase "used to be" seems to be lost on you, at the end of a week when a county clerk is making international news and is jailed for refusing to serve gay people.

Let me boil this down to as a simple request. Please don't mention gay people anymore. At all. Really. We will survive your lack of notice.

[joshcryer]

18. I didn't see it that way at first.

But rereading the post you're absolutely right. *sigh*

It's embarrassing. If you're in the Sanders bubble (and I am) you sort of miss stuff like that.

[yardwork]

40. Thank you for understanding.

I really appreciate it. I mean that. I am actually in tears, and that is rare. This really upset me.

[merrily]

45. Really?

[PeaceNikki]

23. Yeah. It's pretty gross.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

26. Bullshit. You don't speak for all gay people.

I read the first iteration of this OP and understood it wasn't a slam against me and other gay people. The edit makes it perfectly clear what the point of those examples are. And the edit wasn't needed - except to shut up partisan bickering with people who have axes to grind that have nothing to do with this post.

I don't know what your deal is, but there are a few people in this thread playing intentionally obtuse and it is disgusting.

Furthermore, one of them has the unmitigated gall to come in this thread, finger wagging, when HE was one of those people spreading that slander about gay people - and not that long ago.

[yardwork]

37. Neither do you.

I think that I made my meaning very clear. I find the OP to be personally offensive. Others do as well. You can yell at us and call us names and accuse us of not acting in good faith when we express our feelings, and all that does is make me even less likely to support your candidate.

That's how politics works.

[Bluenorthwest]

65. I support Sanders and the OP pissed me off too. Unsavory. It gets tiresome.

Sanders supporters and Democrats in general here in Oregon just do not go in for the bully methods that are so totally beloved by the East Coast Straights. This OP would have been asked to leave the room after saying gay people used to be unsavory at a Bernie meeting here. This whole 'cast bait for minorities' routine would be rejected.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

68. The person you are responding to has admitted down thread she didn't believe the op was slamming us.

Give it a rest already.

It's obvious from the links in this thread you have a history with the op.

Does it bother you one eensy teensy bit you are standing shoulder to shoulder with the ONE DUer who used to actually SAY, about gay people, what you are alleging of the OP? Not a little bit?

I've never seen you pass up an opportunity to call out the person who called gay people pedophiles on another site - not that long ago - And he meant it.

Now here we are in a thread that anyone with a post 8th grade reading comprehension level can see the OP was using a rhetorical device to show how attitudes have changed, for the better, on several issues including anti-gay stereotypes... And you ignore the big flaming ironic elephant in the room.

Why is that?

This thread is a disgusting display of partisan bickering and vile smears. All for the sake of petty grudges.

Sickening.

[yardwork]

71. What the fuck? I "admitted" nothing of the sort.

I agree wholeheartedly with Bluenorthwest's response to me. Again, you don't get to speak for all us gay folk. Nor do you get to put words in my mouth.

The OP absolutely is a slam on gay people imo. We're being exploited here.

Sanders has been accused of being insensitive to minority groups and women. Ya'll might want to check your mics.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

84. you should tell that to yourself down thread

"I get that the OP wasn't saying that gay people were actually unsavory. "

[marym625]

44. +1

Well said

[rhett o rick]

53. Thank you for speaking up. I don't see this as a slam against the gay community at all.

Funny how those offended all seem to be those that don't like Manny.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

54. Yep. Ridiculous.

Anyone with a post eighth grade education could see what was meant by the initial op and subsequent edits.

A disgusting display of intentional obtuseness for sake of a smear job of an opponent. All over petty primary bickering.

Not to mention throwing in with a former free republic member who DID say those things. And meant them. And not too long ago. Big fat fucking irony mixed in with an unlimited amount of gall.

[Tipperary]

85. I read the first iteration too and I agree

with you. It seems some just want to make a point. I do think the op could have been worded better however, which would have avoided this silliness.

[Marr]

36. You don't speak for gays.

Please don't be offended on my behalf, especially when it's so damned self serving. I knew what Manny meant and I'm sure you did, too.

[yardwork]

38. His meaning us crystal clear to me.

As a gay person, my feelings don't matter. It's perfectly ok to use me as a political football to score points. Got it.

[marym625]

43. WOW

I'm not the least bit offended. And "using us as a political football" is so far out there it's ridiculous.

What is untrue in this post? What is offensive? The answer is to both is, nothing.

[JTFrog]

46. "What is untrue in this post?"

Well up until his very last edit he basically stated as fact that: "The LGBT community used to be composed unsavory people."

When first called on it, he says, oh, forgot a word and changed it to: "The LGBT community used to be composed of unsavory people."

It took him five or six attempts to finally change it to: "used to be thought by many" even after it was pointed out how offensive his post was.

Why the fuck he is using gays in this manner to begin with is what should really be talked about. The analogy is absurd and offensive.

[marym625]

50. Again, wow.

There was never any doubt what was meant and it was never an insult to the LGBT community. Anyone that can read knows that.

The complaints against the post are just more Manny hating.

[Bluenorthwest]

66. I dare you to play 'Mad Libs' with the original title that set some of us off. Do you know the game?

In 'Mad Libs' a phrase is presented, then key words are removed and other words are put in their place for humorous or revealing results. So we take the original title of this OP:
"The LGBT community used to be composed unsavory people."

And we remove 'LGBT'
""The _____ community used to be composed unsavory people."

Now we insert other nouns in place of 'LGBT' and read it back to see how it sounds. Try the nouns 'Jewish' and 'African American' in place of LGBT. Now try 'Republican'. Now try 'Muslim'.

Now for extra points, you need to go find your black neighbor and read that line back to her 'The African American community used to be composed of unsavory people.' Do that, tell me how it plays out and we can discuss this further.

[yardwork]

73. Sanders is having some problems with African Americans and women.

I can see why. There's a tone deafness among his campaigners that is becoming increasingly problematic.

[PotatoChip]

89. I disagree, and here is why...

Over-representation in the polling of upper middle class and/or financially comfortable, college educated, middle class, women. Among this demographic of women, including some senior citizens, this is the demographic most consistently polled regarding political candidates and issues. And not by just a little bit...

Most polling firms are supplied with databases of demographic groups (in this case, women) who are the most likely to vote. If you've ever been polled by a reputable polling firm, you will likely remember getting the standard disclaimer, along with the words, "We are contacting likely voters for the upcoming xyz election". As someone having been contacted, you are probably in the 'likely voter' category already; but firms will often even confirm it by asking if you have voted in various past elections.

The point here is that these databases are disproportionately made up of consistent voters, (unless driven otherwise, which is rare). Therefore, financially insecure middle class, lower middle class, and poor women of all races who are sporadic* voters at best, rarely end up as part of the polling sample.

But these financially insecure, mostly unaccounted for potential voters, including huge numbers of millennials-- many of whom are not even 'on the books', make up a very high number of Bernie Sanders' base supporters. While disproportionately unaccounted for in the polls, huge numbers will indeed vote, if boosted with a little help (ie rides to the polls, help with registrations, etc). Heck, if their enthusiasm continues on this way, they may not only take on their own initiative, but help others too.



*http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/01/why-are-the-poor-and-minorities-less-likely-to-vote/282896/

[marym625]

75. I have a better game. let's play Read The Post.

It's simple. Even this post shouldn't be "tldr" for anyone here. You click on the post, then you read the entire thing.

There is absolutely no way that anyone could believe that "what were we thinking" doesn't clearly mean that the thought that we are unsavory, is ridiculous.

I'll explain further for you. At one time, what was believed by many, is that we were unsavory people. For the majority of the country, not that long ago, that was a true statement. And that now, the majority of the country knows that was archaic, horrible and wrong. Hence the "what were we thinking." It's obvious that Manny is saying that Democratic Socialist are now thought of as unsavory. True as it is that people are not born with political affiliations, it's also true that the religious right is lumping their ridiculous, outdated, bullshit rhetoric on the LGBT community and Democratic Socialists.

I don't have to play your game. Whether you like it or not, I'm part of the LGBT community. And I also understand the concept of headlines.

You just like to try and stir up problems. I'll never forget your replying to a good, thoughtful post trying to keep peace here. Acrimony. That is how you replied to it. With anger and hyperbole. You have a chip on your shoulder that shows in almost every reply. It's really kind of sad.

[Puglover]

83. +1000

[rhett o rick]

55. Meanings are never crystal clear except to those that want to make an issue. nm

[Starry Messenger]

48. ((hugs)

This place. wtf.

[madinmaryland]

49. I'm trying to figure out the actual intention of the OP, because it really seems

like a rambling word salad.

I just don't see what the point of it is. All of the things he mentions have nothing to do with Bernie Sanders.

[JTFrog]

52. + infinity. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

10. The straight community used to be full of far more liars even than it has today.

Those liars called LGBT people unsavory. Some of them still take joy in repeating those old school attacks. As we can see here today.

[MannyGoldstein]

15. Speaking of lies...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7140658

[Bluenorthwest]

16. Why don't you tell me in words what you think I lied about, you craven link poster?

I have never lied. You keep making that claim, but the title of this OP is yet another lie to blast at LGBT people. Straight people called us unsavory falsely. You repeat that we were unsavory. Then you call me a liar.
I'm not the only person telling you this. You should listen. You do not seem to get it.

[MannyGoldstein]

21. Any English speaker who clicks on the provided links can see

just what happened.

[joshcryer]

22. Long day?

[Bluenorthwest]

25. That link goes to a post of your calling me a liar, it's a big circle of you calling me names.

I will assume you are incapable of putting your grievance into words as requested. You keep calling me a liar but you refuse to name the lie. Now you are doing it in a post in which you claim LGBT people used to be unsavory just because your straight community said so. Fuck that. Stand up and clearly say what you actually mean or just stop with the sputtering and bullshit. I thought it was 'Boston strong' not Boston craven simpering'.

[MannyGoldstein]

33. For the link- or logic-impaired:

1. I wrote a post titled Burning people to death. Didn't Christians do that a few years back?

2. A bunch of the usual suspects viciously attacked me for writing that; for no apparent reason, the attacks essentially ceased once President Obama said basically the same thing that I did. Hmmm

3. You, in particular, responded to my piece with a post, titled Nope, witch burnings happened many years ago. Words have meanings. 'Few' has an actual definition. You continued on with things like Yep, there were witch burnings hundreds of years ago, but that's not 'a few years back'. Words have actual meanings which are important, words are the raw material used to make laws which are then used to oppress others... And ranted on about how awful I was for having lied about the timing of the witch burnings.

4. In a subsequent post, you accused me of having used the word "few" improperly for really, really awful reasons: Personally I took issue with your wording and with the history you were skipping

5. I responded to your post (as others had responded to some of your other posts) by demonstrating that "Christians" burning people alive who are thought to be witches has, in fact, happened in the past few years: Six years ago isn't a few? This had been carried on national network news.

You were wrong. You had been told you were wrong by others, e.g., More like a year and a half ago. Yet you persisted in using a lie to attack me in a most disgusting and disingenuous way.

And have never offered a mea culpa of any sort.

And that's the facts. And if they ain't I await your corrections.

[Bluenorthwest]

62. So I took issue with a historic allusion and the words 'a few'. Very sorry, how unsavory of me.

You sure are touchy for a person who has no problem typing 'gay people used to be unsavory' and shit.

This OP as you originally wrote it was harmful, aggressive and mean. You created it to bait LGBT persons.
So 'a few' people on DU are so deeply biased against LGBT and so self important that it is nothing but endless delight to toy with them. It is sauce for the gander. Not that you are one of them, oh no, of course not. You are super progressive and a great, towering leader of liberal thought in America, it's all about you Manny, it is all about you.
Happy now?

[MannyGoldstein]

69. "Took issue" doesn't quite capture the thing.

It's like saying that the Bush Administration "took issue" with Saddam Hussein. It's technically true, but nonsense.

You accused me of horrific stuff, based on sheer nonsense. You don't even dispute the facts as I've laid them out.

As to this OP, in its original or any other form... as has been pointed out in this thread, by other members of the LGBT community, your accusations are more nonsense, merely taking things out of context in order to launch yet another disgusting attack against me.

[MannyGoldstein]

56. Cat got your tongue?

I'm still waiting for your apology.

[msanthrope]

59. PWI, Manny? nt

[joshcryer]

11. The silly thing about the "socialism" bit...

...is that Sanders is basically ahead of most other politicians and more in line with Americans policy-wise. Politicians tend to lag behind the American population by a bit, and they're constantly having to "evolve" their positions. Sanders doesn't need to pretty much on all issues (I think marijuana is one where he's on the fence but that'll change).

[Bluenorthwest]

14. You need to stick to exploiting your own stuff and leave LGBT people out of it.

Make a post about how Reagan voters used to be unsavory or wealthy Bostonian straights being such shits. Use that which is yours to use.

[Chitown Kev]

17. *facepalm*

Well...sure, I guess, the LGBT community has had some "unsavory people." and it still does.

The problem was (and still is in some circles) that being LGBT was unsavory, by default.

Whereas socialism or democratic socialism was a political ideology and a choice...big difference, trust me.

[geek tragedy]

20. this really 'belongs' in GD: Primaries--

to the extent it belongs at DU at all.

[Rex]

24. So are you saying America lives and dies by how it is perceived and not reality?

I'll buy that for a dollar.

[marym625]

27. K&R!

I'm not sure why anyone thinks you're insulting the LGBT community. I understand the post, agree with it and am not offended.

Just the usual "Manny posted, let's bitch" me thinks

[MannyGoldstein]

34. If you're going to post the previous title, then shouldn't you also post

the rest of the post as it read previously?

I mean, you wouldn't want to people to think that you're purposely taking things out of context just to attack me, would you?

[yardwork]

39. His edits haven't touched the reason I'm offended.

The point I made up thread is that it is offensive to drag gay people into this comparison at all. I get that the OP wasn't saying that gay people were actually unsavory. However, his OP - all versions of it - are insensitive. I find it to be hurtful. It's not a good week, watching the bible thumpers call us abominations again, on and on. An elected official would rather go to jail than damn her soul for serving gay people like me. That's hurtful. And then this insensitive OP.

[Puglover]

82. Offensive to you and one other gay poster in this thread.

The other is actually attacking Manny with someone that wrote vile shit for years about us on Free Republic. And on the day DOMA was over turned penned a disgusting OP something about now being able to marry a tomato. Or some such garbage. And you were in that thread so I am sure you remember it.

Joining you are a whole bunch of Manny haters that were screaming at us for being horrified at Rick Warren delivering Obama's invocation who are now suddenly "offended". Bullshit.

For the record I am "meh" towards Manny. Some good stuff some not so good.


But you do not speak for all of the LGTB posters on this site. Certainly not me.

So enjoy your offense. But it is obvious what he meant.

[marym625]

91. +1000 back at you!

[H2O Man]

31. Beautiful!

Thank you.

Recommended!

[Dont call me Shirley]

41. Let's all say it together DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM works for all. Put an end to Corporate/Oligarch rule!

[merrily]

42. Until certain DUers began attacking Sanders for allegedly being socialist, I had not looked into

Democratic Socialism. Once I did, I saw that it is mostly about social programs like Social Security, Medicare, Head Start, etc. That kind of program is fine with me. So is every such program on which Bernie is running, like investing in education more than in prisons. I have come to realize that I am probably a Democratic Socialist.

[Starry Messenger]

47. Bad analogies for $500

The irrational haters still have power and can still make life horrible for LGBT people. There is an epidemic of trans women of color being killed in the US, in addition to the Kentucky situation still unfolding, and the simple fact that people can be fired for being gay in several states. Lots more.

The most useful thing I can think of to say to this hot mess is that it is a mistake to think that the liberal consensus somehow constitutes reality.

And socialism is not an inborn trait that people's lives are shaped by. I know you'll probably try to argue some family of man, we all share stuff, but really, save it. Being a socialist is not like being Black, gay, a woman, or anything else.

[randys1]

51. Pat Robertson reminded people of the good ole days when it was the norm to treat Gays

horribly.

I saw that somewhere today.

[joshcryer]

57. Anyone have MineralMan's jury?

[msanthrope]

58. Yes.....I'd like to see that..nt

[joshcryer]

60. I think the thread is dead.

Oh well, maybe a juror will come back to it when they wake up and respond...

Wait I'll msg him and get him to PM it, will post it later.

[msanthrope]

61. Dead? It's got that gefilte fish smell to it for sure. nt

[joshcryer]

81. Here it is.

On Fri Sep 4, 2015, 04:59 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

That's better, Manny. Finally, you made an edit that
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7140764

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This is a pretty disgusting and deceitful tactic. He's so upset about this post, he is re-posting the worst, when taken out of context, part for no other reason to slander the op.. I know some people get their jollies derailing threads by people they dislike. But reposting that bs and using lgbt people as a cudgel, especially by this well known ex-homophobe, is beyond the pale and over the top.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Sep 4, 2015, 05:29 PM, and voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't feel that the poster intended to be intentionally hurtful. Subsequent comments in the thread seem to provide a balance of opinions that allow members to discuss their point of view on that matter. My apologies if I just dong get it.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is a ridiculous Alert and if they thinks this helps BS supporters they could not be more wrong. Actually I think this BS supporter is actually a Troll. Say hello to your boss Karl. ajfr - I would rather be serving on a jury for the OP because he really is a an old homophob.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is an unwarranted cheap shot.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Well said by the alerter.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No way am I going to vote hide on this.

[msanthrope]

87. let me see if I have this correctly......

one chooses to accurately post what another one has posted. but because they did not take into account the many hours after edits one is hidden....

[Bobbie Jo]

88. Geeze

What a manipulative alert.

Seriously, THAT was the post hidden in this mess?? That was actually one of the LEAST offensive posts in this trainwreck of a thread.

[msanthrope]

90. Thin-skinned. nt

[treestar]

64. this Kim Davis situation sure is interesting

DU is really interested and hasn't been talking about Bernie much.

[yardwork]

74. That's interesting, isn't it?

When in doubt, exploit minorities. I'm becoming less and less impressed with the Sanders campaign.

[randome]

67. "...people will quickly realize..." And you base this on...?

How quickly do you expect the GOP to die out? I agree that change is inevitable but you offer nothing concrete to support your main point.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[olddots]

76. socialism to me is about not worshipping idols or saints .

Ots about people realizing we are people even when we all want to be kings and queens .

[Smarmie Doofus]

78. It really IS a teaching mission more than anything else.

Win or lose.... the Sanders campaign is a quantum leap forward in terms of the level of political and economic discussion.

Without him, we have only the same, stale, trite cliches... coming from BOTH major parties.