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gobears10

(310 posts)
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 01:47 AM Sep 2015

What are your thoughts on "trans-exclusionary" radical feminism?

Last edited Sat Sep 5, 2015, 07:46 AM - Edit history (7)

First and foremost, I identity as a feminist and a champion of women's rights. I do subscribe to the idea that in many, many areas there are both subtle and blatant undercurrents of sexism and misogyny in America. We should be talking about discrimination on the basis of gender by government, by society, culturally, by companies, etc. Feminism, as I define it (a movement to make women equal to men), and as it's historically been done, is something I absolutely support a progressive. There is not equality, and there should be. I applaud feminists who are fighting for equality.

The U.S. Republican Party continues to implement and promote misogynistic policies, denying women the right to decide when and whether to have a child. In various states, Republicans have dismantled the reproductive rights of women through over-regulating abortion clinics, invasive transvaginal ultrasound procedures, and banning abortions after 20 weeks, even in cases of rape or incest. Social conservatives have a powerful political lobby that seeks to restrict birth control coverage and access, and shames women for using contraception. Through promoting "abstinence only" sex-ed, and through implementing a "Scarlet Letter" law in Florida, social conservatives support returning women's sexual freedom to strict patriarchal control in the name of religion. Moreover, on both the state federal levels, Republicans support defunding Planned Parenthood, jeopardizing the ability of women (especially poor women of color) to access affordable birth control, cancer screenings, pregnancy testing and counseling, testing and treatment for STDs, comprehensive sex education, and safely administered abortions.

We need to end body shaming and unrealistic images of women in our media and society. We need to combat eating disorders that affect women due to unrealistic standards in society. We need to end the religious-based oppression of women. We need to dismantle traditional gender roles for all genders (women, men, transgender individuals, other people outside the gender binary). We need equal pay for equal work, and we need to address the aggregate pay gap by encouraging more women to go into STEM if they want to. Too many women are underrepresented in higher-paying professions. We need to encourage men to become caregivers too. We need paid maternity and paternity leave. We need to end slut shaming. We need to crack down on sexual assault and domestic violence, and stop victim blaming. We need to end modern day slavery in the form of human sex trafficking. We need to stop the socially conservative shaming of single and working mothers.

We also need to adopt an inter-sectional perspective and interrogate how race, class, sexual orientation, gender-identity, religion, immigration status, ethnicity, disability status, and other aspects of one's identity collectively determine life outcomes. We have to ensure that feminism and social justice overall isn't centered around the interests and needs of straight, heterosexual, white middle class women in America.

However, while I am a proud liberal and progressive feminist, I am wary about some radical feminists. I'm going to be skeptical of the goals of radical feminists, questioning both their intentions and whether their methods are actually the best to achieve their goals. Extreme, fundamentalist feminists are doing more harm than good in my view. Reasonable feminists who are on the side of logic and reason have to defend themselves from militant, fanatic feminists who are saying illogical, inflammatory, hateful, and ridiculous things. We can't ignore them or give them a free pass, because people are paying attention to them too, and they hurt women's rights far more than help it. Extremist feminists enable horrible misogynists, MRAs, and other right-wing douchebags to denounce or dismiss feminism as a whole, even in cases where there's serious structural misogyny.

For example, I found this interview with a radical feminist to be quite ridiculous. Here's the full link: http://www.radfemcollective.org/news/2015/8/29/an-interview-with-julie-bindel

Here are an excerpt:

It won’t, not unless men get their act together, have their power taken from them and behave themselves. I mean, I would actually put them all in some kind of camp where they can all drive around in quad bikes, or bicycles, or white vans. I would give them a choice of vehicles to drive around with, give them no porn, they wouldn’t be able to fight – we would have wardens, of course! Women who want to see their sons or male loved ones would be able to go and visit, or take them out like a library book, and then bring them back.

I hope heterosexuality doesn’t survive, actually. I would like to see a truce on heterosexuality. I would like an amnesty on heterosexuality until we have sorted ourselves out. Because under patriarchy it’s shit.

And I am sick of hearing from individual women that their men are all right. Those men have been shored up by the advantages of patriarchy and they are complacent, they are not stopping other men from being shit.

I would love to see a women’s liberation that results in women turning away from men and saying: “when you come back as human beings, then we might look again...

On the one hand you have got utter idiots like Laurie Penny who are simply coming out with the stuff that she does because she knows that the groups she is supporting, that are pro-trans, pro-sex work, and pro- other anti-women nonsense, are run by very high profile, powerful libertarian men.”


She's also extremely transphobic, being part of a branch of radical feminism called "trans-exclusionary" radical feminism. This strand of radical feminism is characterized by transphobia, especially transmisogyny, and hostility to the third wave of feminism. They believe that the only "real women" are those born with a vagina and XX chromosomes. They wish to completely enforce the classic gender binary, supporting gender essentialism. Sex worker exclusionary radical feminism (also known as SWERF) is yet another offshoot of radical feminism, one that opposes women's participation in pornography and prostitution.

It's a disgusting, horrible worldview, and pro-equality intersectional feminists who want to uplift trans folk and sex workers shouldn't stand for this nonsense. TERFs (and SWERFs) are a tiny subset of feminism, but an unduly influential one: legislators seeking feminist input will often get an academic TERF, who will then get transphobia into law. They are, in short, a hate group that by no means represents mainstream feminism, and I don't view them as progressive or liberal. Anyone who throws trans people under the bus and doesn't adopt an intersectional perspective isn't my ally. I'm with the pro-equality feminists.
43 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
What are your thoughts on "trans-exclusionary" radical feminism? (Original Post) gobears10 Sep 2015 OP
I like that camp idea... hunter Sep 2015 #1
you're joking right? gobears10 Sep 2015 #2
Kind of sounds like fun. smirkymonkey Sep 2015 #8
I'll take the bicycle jberryhill Sep 2015 #28
What I think is that the only time I *ever* see this TDale313 Sep 2015 #3
I agree. gobears10 Sep 2015 #5
+1 demmiblue Sep 2015 #7
I think this particular "radical feminist" deserves criticism gobears10 Sep 2015 #11
They usually rec their own threads as well. nt RandiFan1290 Sep 2015 #15
do you support transphobia? gobears10 Sep 2015 #16
CSB RandiFan1290 Sep 2015 #17
And reply to you several times in order to goad you to reply back. demmiblue Sep 2015 #24
shame on you, gobears10 Sep 2015 #19
Your slip is showing. Squinch Sep 2015 #35
Totally agree with you. Gormy Cuss Sep 2015 #31
*nods* Starry Messenger Sep 2015 #34
This is what comes to mind too. DanTex Sep 2015 #38
What surprised me is the date. I was thinking 1975, not 2015 eridani Sep 2015 #4
yeah i agree... gobears10 Sep 2015 #6
Oh no, I'm experiencing PATSD (Post AverageJoe90 Traumatic Stress Disorder) betsuni Sep 2015 #9
tbh it must be contagious, I'm feeling it too. n/t seaglass Sep 2015 #18
You Better Believe It! nt msanthrope Sep 2015 #21
Indeed. Quite transparent, this one. NuclearDem Sep 2015 #25
Lulz. Yep. n/t demmiblue Sep 2015 #43
I say let them vent all they want. bemildred Sep 2015 #10
I would agree... gobears10 Sep 2015 #12
Well they are losing that argument, and I don't have to do what they say either. bemildred Sep 2015 #13
I support feminism Shankapotomus Sep 2015 #14
your conflation of anti-pornography activism with opposition to transgender rights is sad ploy zazen Sep 2015 #20
you're completely wrong... gobears10 Sep 2015 #22
Almost all feminists are sex positive feminists. prayin4rain Sep 2015 #32
also you're wrong gobears10 Sep 2015 #23
Andrea Dworkin was profoundly mentally ill. hifiguy Sep 2015 #37
yeah, whatever--"second wave feminists" is code for "old women we discard" zazen Sep 2015 #39
My opinion of self-described "radical feminists" hifiguy Sep 2015 #42
I am sick of waking up each morning in a world where people 'on my side' make exploitative use of Bluenorthwest Sep 2015 #26
! Warren Stupidity Sep 2015 #27
Not on OP, but I stand with my trans brothers and sisters. ladyVet Sep 2015 #30
Why Transgender People Are Being Murdered at a Historic Rate Zorra Sep 2015 #29
plus, 3 women/day are murdered by intimate partners in US n/t zazen Sep 2015 #40
*spits* MisterP Sep 2015 #33
I think she sounds like a nutcase Marrah_G Sep 2015 #36
I think I've gotten old. That one's new to me Tom Rinaldo Sep 2015 #41

hunter

(38,309 posts)
1. I like that camp idea...
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 02:11 AM
Sep 2015

...play with your motor toys and don't bother the rest of us until you grow up.

Hell, forget the wardens. Unlimited porn, free beer, fight all they like. A testosterone fueled party every day.

Some might never leave.

Good!




 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
28. I'll take the bicycle
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 10:15 AM
Sep 2015

not sure what I would do with a van, but the bicycle sounds fun. Do I have to work?

TDale313

(7,820 posts)
3. What I think is that the only time I *ever* see this
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 02:25 AM
Sep 2015

type of thing brought up is by someone hoping to take a swipe at feminists/feminism. Trot out the most extreme thing they can find (often proceded by "I'm ok with feminism, but...&quot and see if anyone will take the bait of actually trying to defend it, or if it will force people to loudly proclaim "Oh no, I'm not *that* kind of feminist"

gobears10

(310 posts)
5. I agree.
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 02:26 AM
Sep 2015

I'm a strong and proud feminist though, and feminism is absolutely necessary. But I do think the left should call out the crazies on our own side though. But yeah, people who solely bring up this stuff to dismiss feminism or women's rights as a whole, like asshole MRAs or right-wingers are absolutely pathetic pieces of excrement.

demmiblue

(36,837 posts)
7. +1
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 04:00 AM
Sep 2015

People like that always set off my MRAdar. Though, they are usually obvious well before they start tossing around 'rad fems'. It is weird how they don't realize that women can sense the little clues they throw out.

gobears10

(310 posts)
11. I think this particular "radical feminist" deserves criticism
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 07:21 AM
Sep 2015

She's extremely transphobic, being part of a branch of radical feminism called "trans-exclusionary" radical feminism. This strand of radical feminism is characterized by transphobia, especially transmisogyny, and hostility to the third wave of feminism. They believe that the only "real women" are those born with a vagina and XX chromosomes. They wish to completely enforce the classic gender binary, supporting gender essentialism. Sex worker exclusionary radical feminism (also known as SWERF) is yet another offshoot of radical feminism, one that opposes women's participation in pornography and prostitution.

It's a disgusting, horrible worldview, and pro-equality intersectional feminists who want to uplift trans folk shouldn't stand for this nonsense.

gobears10

(310 posts)
16. do you support transphobia?
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 07:43 AM
Sep 2015

I don't. I think trans women are fully fledged women, and gender identity =/= biological sex. gender dysphoria is real and it exists. too many trans people face hate from individuals and institutions from a daily basis, and I'm not going to stand up for anyone who misgenders them, invalidates their experiences, by denying cisgender privilege, and other horrible stuff. I'm disgusted at your comments.

gobears10

(310 posts)
19. shame on you,
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 07:51 AM
Sep 2015

I'm extremely ashamed and disappointed of you, that you're not willing to stand up for trans folk in the face of horrible transphobia. That you're not being critical enough, and you're derailing the conversation. I would recommend looking up "microagressions" if you are unaware of what they are, and how they can be triggering to some folk. Pathetic.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
31. Totally agree with you.
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 10:34 AM
Sep 2015

It's tiresome. It reminds of the same "concern" when 2nd wavers became prominent that feminism was a secret lesbian recruiting ploy.
There is no "but" needed after the statement "I'm a feminist."

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
38. This is what comes to mind too.
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 01:28 PM
Sep 2015

Find some crazy thing that some feminist has said and use it to put other feminists on the defensive.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
4. What surprised me is the date. I was thinking 1975, not 2015
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 02:25 AM
Sep 2015

That tendency was called 'separatism' back then, and it never had much traction outside of people who were mainly interested in winning the mimeograph wars. These days, it's probably Twitter and Facebook wars.

betsuni

(25,449 posts)
9. Oh no, I'm experiencing PATSD (Post AverageJoe90 Traumatic Stress Disorder)
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 06:58 AM
Sep 2015

I don't feel very well, somebody get me a cold towel and an aspirin.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
10. I say let them vent all they want.
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 07:19 AM
Sep 2015

They have some good points to make and we should all listen to them.

gobears10

(310 posts)
12. I would agree...
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 07:24 AM
Sep 2015

but transphobia and transmisogyny is not okay at all, especially when the suicide rate for transgenders is so staggeringly high. people who claim to be "radical feminists" but then throw trans people under the bus are not my allies.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
13. Well they are losing that argument, and I don't have to do what they say either.
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 07:32 AM
Sep 2015

All movements have their purists, their extremist loons and utopians.

One thing I like about the internet is that it is just FULL of people who claim to be the opposite of what they obviously are, and claim to be doing the opposite of what they are obviously doing, so it's the perfect place for people to say things they don't mean.

And I think it is wrong to try to shut people up because they are not being reasonable at the moment, as long as they don't start acting out or making threats.

I've read some feminist authors, and I always find them illuminating even though some of them are a lot more reasonable then others,

Shankapotomus

(4,840 posts)
14. I support feminism
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 07:35 AM
Sep 2015

I just don't like it when any group adopts the corrupt ethos of their main opponents, admittedly as a defense from them, and then turns it on liberals and progressives just because they are the gender or race or orientation of their primary political and social opponents on the right side of the political spectrum.

zazen

(2,978 posts)
20. your conflation of anti-pornography activism with opposition to transgender rights is sad ploy
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 07:52 AM
Sep 2015

So the late Andrea Dworkin is "disgusting and horrible?" Are you a teenager? You remind me of my daughter's friends who've suddenly discovered the feminist club and throwing around new terminology.

There is a long, nuanced, rich history of attempts to provide civil remedies to people coerced into pornography--beginning with protection against revenge porn 30 years before it showed up with cell phones and the Internet--and building an apparently still radical understanding that sex discrimination as currently expressed in the West has a little bit to do with a multi-billion dollar industry in which predominantly those with vaginas and XX chromosomes are trussed up, double penetrated, face simulated drownings, real beatings, real electric shocks, choked with penises, smothered with feces, etc. Oh yeah, and those who aren't underage are typically battered, addicted, or suffer from childhood CPTSD before "participating" in this empowering lifestyle.

In addition to the straight out women-hating in "legal" pornography we have dozens of racist tropes to which orgasms are conditioned. Asian females hang passively from trees, like in the photos of the Penthouse that the child murderer here in Chapel Hill had in 1985 when he kidnapped and hanged a little Asian girl from a tree at Finley Golf Course. African American women crawl on all fours in plantation settings.

Do we have a multi-billion dollar industry where white folks ejaculate to photos of African Americans being beaten and lynched? If so, is that just natural? Would those of us who expressed concern be "exclusionary anti-racists" who "opposed" their "participation" in their own degradation?

We won't get into the number of children from across the globe who are trafficked into making internet-available porn that transcend any regulation as to age or safety.

It is really, really sad to me, but not surprising given their woman-hating tactics in the 70s, 80s and 90s, that the pro-pornography camps have enlisted the cause of transgender rights as a means to continue to vilify those of us who question the conditioning of orgasms to hate, torture, and murder.

And also very sad that women who benefit from decades of feminist work throw their feminist forebears under the bus, then come here and misappropriate Patricia Williams (a big supporter of MacKinnon, btw) and her concept of intersectionality to defend this conflation.

The fact that women can be conditioned against their own interests to see sexually tortured females as some expression of freedom reminds me that Republicans who vote against their own economic interests have nothing on the capacity of self-delusion on the left.



gobears10

(310 posts)
22. you're completely wrong...
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 08:01 AM
Sep 2015

Sex worker exclusionary radical feminists rightfully criticize the objectification and exploitation of women within pornography and the sex industry, as well as the violence and abuse that sex workers frequently suffer.[ But predictably, they go overboard and dump on sex-workers who chose their profession freely, as opposed to because of human trafficking. This hostility to voluntary sex work is known as whorephobia, or slut-shaming. It is you who is the one who needs to brush up on modern, intersectional feminism.

I don't agree with sex-negative feminists who argue that sex work/prostitution/pornography is inherently degrading and exploitative to women. I think that for some people, it can be an absolutely legitimate choice. Yes, sex trafficking is definitely a major problem, and women in poverty or with a history of abuse are vulnerable to exploitation. But I don't think the solution is to stop all sex work. To me, the solution is to decriminalize the sex industry, legalize the buying and selling sex between consenting adults, and properly regulating prostitution. If we destigmatize sex work, and bring the industry out of the shadows and into the regular economy, we can protect sex workers' rights while focusing specifically on eliminating child and sex trafficking. And sex workers also themselves can be indispensable allies in combating exploitative trafficking.

I'm a sex-positive feminist.

Prostitution is always going to happen, so to me, it makes perfect sense to allow consenting adults to do what they want while regulating the practice. Pimps and brothels that prohibit one-on-one access between their employees and law enforcement agencies would have their licenses revoked and would be put under investigation for trafficking. Human traffickers would be jailed, put on the sex offender registry, and would face harsh sentences. Sex workers themselves would freely be able to contact law enforcement for protection without fearing arrest. Pimps and brothels would also be required to submit their employee records with proof of STD testing. Self-employed sex workers must also get a valid license from the state and meet this requirement. And in order to get a license, sex workers would undergo a background check to ensure that they weren't trafficked into the profession. All forms of prostitution would also be required by law to make use of condoms, dental dams, and contraception when appropriate, and brothels in violation of the law would have their licenses revoked. And there should be special tax incentives for sex workers to set up brothels as worker-owned cooperatives.

Legalizing prostitution would generate tax revenue that could pay for enforcing various regulations on the sex industry. It could also lead to a healthier view of sex as it would become destigmatized and more readily available to members of society. Moreover, it could help lower income and wealth inequality, poverty, and upward immobility for poor women of color. At the end of the day though, I think America should be a free country, and adults should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies, even if other people don't like it or disapprove. Live and let live. I'm pro-liberty unless what you are doing is inherently hurting yourself or other people, and I don't think that's the case with sex work.

prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
32. Almost all feminists are sex positive feminists.
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 11:23 AM
Sep 2015

Almost all feminists love men and enjoy sex. Almost all feminists are concerned about how to protect sex workers. Many feminists are ALSO concerned that a large number of sex workers are coerced into the line of work through childhood abuse. Many feminists are ALSO concerned about how viewing women and "barely legal" girls as sex objects and commodities contributes to the amount of violence and abuse against women and girls in our society and across the globe.

An extremely low number of feminists are not supportive of transgendered persons. You may have found the ONLY one, actually.

The view that you are espousing as feminism is a movement created and paid for by sex industry profiteers. It simply says what most average males on the street would say about the sex industry and slaps a label of feminism on it. That's it. Really. Ask the men you know their opinion on prostitution and they will tell you essentially exactly what you wrote.

Average joe intellectualism is a sad trap of modern life. There's nothing wrong with living your life and holding average opinions, but have enough awareness to know when you're being sold a line by profiteers.

Not everything a woman does or thinks every second of the day is feminism. I do not think wearing high heels and make up is a feminist act, yet, I do both almost every day. I'm a feminist but not everything I do or think is a feminist act. Work in the sex industry. Live your life however you want. ...just don't call it feminism.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
37. Andrea Dworkin was profoundly mentally ill.
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 01:16 PM
Sep 2015

She was not a "philosopher." Her colleague Catherine MacKinnon was, and probably still is, a Stalinist in sheep's clothing. I had first hand experience dealing with that crowd when I was in college. They were totalitarian to the core. More later when I am not posting on a phone.

zazen

(2,978 posts)
39. yeah, whatever--"second wave feminists" is code for "old women we discard"
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 03:08 PM
Sep 2015

I dealt with "that crowd" in college too. I see it rather differently.

People here are not arguing in good faith. I'm done. Have a nice day.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
42. My opinion of self-described "radical feminists"
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 03:35 PM
Sep 2015

was cemented when MacKinnon and Dworkin were trying to ram through their crazy ordinance in Minneapolis, my hometown. MacKinnon was using some research by a professor named Donnerstein IIRC to back up her kook claims. The City Council brought in Donnerstein to testify.

When Donnerstein said that MacKinnon was abusing, twisting and misrepresenting his research, MacKinnon literally told him to sit down and shut up. SHE would tell the professor what his intentions and hypotheses were and what his research REALLY meant. When Donnerstein tried to speak up, MacKinnon's little zombies shouted him down. That is totalitarianism in its purest form.

That kind of towering arrogance, sheer assholism and disespect for science showed the real face of that bunch of self-identified "radical feminists." Like the religous fundies, whom they so closely resemble, facts are not only optional, they don't exist. All that's necessary is to believe something is so, evidence to the contrary be damned.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
26. I am sick of waking up each morning in a world where people 'on my side' make exploitative use of
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 09:37 AM
Sep 2015

trans and gay people to make points that really have nothing to do with us. A bigot is a bigot, so those who are bigoted against trans persons are bigots, the lingo they wrap the bigotry up in is irrelevant.


But I long for the morning when I wake up and see OPs by DU straight people that say 'We stand with our trans brothers and sisters!!!!' or 'The LGBT community deserves our thanks!' Instead what we get is 'gays used to be unsavory' and 'what about trans exclusive feminists' and 'We Stand with the Anti Gay Pope'.
I think at times this board is comprised of Kim Davis Democrats.

Imagine the OP that said 'LGBT community really knows how to make change happen'.

Would it be so hard to just be supportive during the rough bits?

ladyVet

(1,587 posts)
30. Not on OP, but I stand with my trans brothers and sisters.
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 10:22 AM
Sep 2015

I thank the LGBT community for all they've done for equality and acceptance, as I do our brothers and sisters who are not Caucasians.

I know the fight was and is a hard one. Often dangerous, and full of people who would rather see them dead than acknowledge them as human beings.

You aren't the only one who wonders about some members of this forum, either. Some things I see posted by people who claim to be Democrats (not to mention Christians) still shock me, and I've been around the block a few times and have seen some crazy shit.

Oh, and I guess I should mention that I'm a strong feminist, going back more than 40 years, and I accept transgender women. Well, transgender people in general, really.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
29. Why Transgender People Are Being Murdered at a Historic Rate
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 10:19 AM
Sep 2015

snip---
“These are all characteristics of people in the United States who are more susceptible to violence,” says the Center’s Mara Keisling, “of people who are more marginalized economically and educationally, people who end up having a bullseye on their back.”

The legal victories and increased media coverage of LGBT people in recent months has been largely positive for the community, experts like Keisling say. More people feel comfortable coming out, giving others the chance to meet and befriend someone who is transgender or gay, building the personal relationships that activists say are often the foundation for acceptance.
snip---
Minter says that the murder rate, as well as the chronic harassment many transgender people face, is best tackled through better education and more community-based programs, like those white stickers in Brooklyn windows that create networks of support among people who walk the same streets each day. Hate crime legislation is helpful in sending a message about the value of lives, he says, but it’s not going to solve the problem.

“We all have a responsibility to stop this violence,” he says, “and that means if you see a transgender person being harassed, we all have an obligation to speak up, to do something.”

http://time.com/3999348/transgender-murders-2015/

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
33. *spits*
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 12:35 PM
Sep 2015

their influence on policy--especially in Britain and Canada--has allowed a lot of transwomen and gays to be raped and murdered by setting the agenda towards Caribbean countries and asylum policy towards that area, especially the Anglophone islands (independence is pretty nominal even for Jamaica); they even reinforce the rhetoric that they're not "true women"

all for the sake of some self-referential academese

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
41. I think I've gotten old. That one's new to me
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 03:26 PM
Sep 2015

I'm a straight male who remembers being supportive of the lesbian separatist movement (pro women excluding men from private space if they desired that in order to feel well and at peace) but I don't know if I could recognize the cutting edge anymore if it stabbed me. No comment on the actual substance because I don't have time for a real read right now, but that's my first reaction...

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