General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)yardwork
(61,533 posts)You support transgender people if they have "proven" that they are transgender by having hormone treatments, surgery, and anything else you happen to think essential in order to verify their transgender status. And after they show the correct papers to the bathroom police, they might be allowed to use a public bathroom. As long as some random guy isn't worried about what his daughter will feel about it.
That's what I learned from your little poll thread.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)City Lights
(25,171 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)nt
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Not even a little.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Someone on DU said bigoted things about people different from them?
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)basically children in adult bodies, but around here it is important we try and educate and enlighten those less endowed.
raven mad
(4,940 posts)Glad I missed it!
I wish everyone here could have been at Sandi (nee Alexander, now Sandra) and Barry's wedding - she made a beautiful bride, and her mom, a Methodist minister, married them in an indoor by-the-fireplace wedding. And yes, Sandi wore a beautiful white gown.
She was a disabled Marine (Gulf War I). Barry was (then) Racemaster for the Yukon Quest. Sandi died last year, and I miss her down to my soul.
Ms. Toad
(33,992 posts)and choose to meet your standards of what constitutes a "proper" transgender person (i.e. they choose to outwardly transition by seeking medical assistance, hormones, and/or counseling, and have the financial means to do so.)
If trans* individuals, and the people closest to them, are telling you that your actions are not supportive, that should be a clue that you are not really supportive. Sort of like the boy scout dragging the old woman kicking and screaming back across the street she'd just crossed because he thinks it might be helpful.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)and that would include free transitioning for transgender individuals.
Ms. Toad
(33,992 posts)Aside from which it is incredibly offensive for you to suggest that there should be a third party litmus test for when someone is trans enough not to be a rapist in disguise.
Even if your hope for a single-payer health care system arises AND transition care is covered, no woman (cis or trans) should have to choose to match your definition of what a female body looks like or prove they are a woman to be entitled to use the women's restroom. Some trans individuals choose not to take a single step toward making their bodies match your definition of what a female body looks like and don't want or need counseling. They are every bit as trans as women who undergo hormone blocking prior to puberty, take hormones, have FFS, and/or GRS.
Support for health care and transition support is not the same as supporting trans* individuals. If you truly support trans* individuals, listen to what trans* people, and those who love them, are telling you about whether what you are doing is supportive.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)you are effectively allowing any man to enter any women's restroom at any time (because he can always claim to identify as a female). And I and many other DUers are not willing to allow that.
JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)vagina recognition cameras in all public restroom stalls that we ladies have to flash in order to not have the police come break down the doors?
I'm trying to figure out how you intend to make this NOT happen?
Ms. Toad
(33,992 posts)Bodies vary tremendously, even among individuals designated female at birth. And I have a number of trans* friends who have chosen not to alter their bodies or take hormones. Refusing alteration that is not medically necessary has no more impact on whether they are women (or, in some cases men) than refusing to have a breast implant after a mastectomy does.
Transwomen should not be subjected to harassment and purity checks because of a fearmongering suggestion that posting a "no men allowed" sign will magically keep men who are intent on raping, stalking, etc. out of women's bathrooms. There are laws against raping, stalking, etc. already. Use them.
Not to mention that there are already plenty of purity checks going on now that make going to the bathroom in public places (at a minimum) a burden and (at worst) a place of violence for ciswomen who are gender nonconforming, or even transwomen taking hormones who have had SRS who don't meet traditional standards of female beauty. What you are suggesting creates a license to demand a body check for anyone not deemed feminine enough.
Tree-Hugger
(3,370 posts)Such a suggestion is highly offensive to cis women as well.
How does one prove that a woman is a woman prior to bathroom use?
Tree-Hugger
(3,370 posts)What about biological women who do not look like our culture's definition of feminity? What then? Do they have to prove they are female enough to pee with your approval?
randys1
(16,286 posts)I wish people would grow up and get over all this childishness about the human body.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Just because disease-infested fetid swamps exist does not mean I have to be happy living in not-quite-as-fetid swamp.
randys1
(16,286 posts)people is extreme anger.
Were I to respond "appropriately" to all the racists and homophobic assholes on DU I would be gone instantly.
So I am responding in ways to sort of get my point across but hopefully in a way that I cant be silenced.
dont wanna get banned
I have been warned, i know there is a group trying to do exactly that
so I will not be allowed to confront bigoted homohphobes
Ms. Toad
(33,992 posts)Tree-Hugger
(3,370 posts)City Lights
(25,171 posts)I won't vote in it, so don't go pretending that "50% of DU" agrees with you.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)A great number of people refused to answer, but even beyond that a lot of people answered the other question or "chose not to answer" in opposition to your other ridiculous choices.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)What proof is currently required to enter a public restroom, regardless of who claims to be what?
No proof currently required?
Then you are, by its very definition, holding two demographics to two wholly different standards. There is a word for that...
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)I think you are saying everyone should have to show their genitals to a door guard in order to enter a restroom. Of course those who don't look like a stereotypical female would have to show also, right?
Seriously? WTF.
Tree-Hugger
(3,370 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)HRT, oophorectomy/orchiectomy, yes, GRS, no (for various reasons including loss of sensation and non-functional outcomes, for trans men, and the need to dilate one's neo-vagina for the rest of one's life, for trans women, so it doesn't close up, and a significant number of potential complications like fistulae). The idea that trans people need to have bottom surgery to be accepted is cisnormative nonsense. (NB that surgery is not a requirement for legal change of gender in most of Europe and in some US states.)
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)to feel comfortable in their gender.
who left you in charge in determining how much someone else needs to go through the physical process to determine their gender?
JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)It took a strong male character actor with the chops of Jeff Tambor to get me to see just how real and important this issue is.
I had no real experience or knowledge before watching that other than I knew I supported these folks as I do all minorities and the LGBTQIA community, etc. but watching HANK from The Larry Sanders Show become this person was really something for me, made me see the people behind these stories in a new way.
It is one thing to say we support this or that group of people and like with Black people my support is unconditional and complete, but I have no clue as does any white person what is is to be Black, as I have no clue what it is to be a Woman trapped in a man's body etc.
Tree-Hugger
(3,370 posts)I haven't heard of that series. I am very behind on the entertainment world and am rarely aware of all that's out there in terms of movies and series. I'm going to see if I can view Transparent.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #1)
Post removed
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)and have yet to be threatened by one of this scary 'dudes pretending to be female'. this is a completely made up controversy to justify and existing bigotry
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)With knobs on.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)DU needs to wise up on transgender issues.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)backscatter opened a can of whoop ass on this thread that needed to be opened!
randys1
(16,286 posts)Who whooped which rightwinger pretending to be a liberal on DU and over what?
I can figure out who was whooped but I guess I need a link to the thread where it all started.
JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)That I would have to flash my vagina to a complete stranger when I gotta pee! I mean - either a camera or a human being. Isn't that what would have to happen in this sick WOMEN HATING fantasy.
That's seriously sick and shows a complete total lack of respect for women.
So at this point it's just hatred towards women wrapped up in a REALLY UGLY box.
Everything about it is 'sick'.
Tree-Hugger
(3,370 posts)It's absolutely twisted than an individual would expect women to submit to some sort of test that proves they possess the proper amount of femininity in order to use the bathroom. Who determines which women are chosen to prove credentials? Is it all off us? Do I need to yank out my diva cup to prove I bleed?
What about cis women with short hair, flat chests, and gender neutral clothing? Will they need to submit to some type of pre-potty femininity test in order to pee?
randys1
(16,286 posts)direct approach
Immaturity is at the core of almost all issues.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)What an awful lot of us have been thinking.
Me - I take the -
Ask an honest question approach!
MrScorpio
(73,630 posts)RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)demmiblue
(36,816 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,286 posts)City Lights
(25,171 posts)pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)Among those we've lost, blondeatlast was one of our champions on these issues.
God, I still miss her!
bullwinkle428
(20,628 posts)JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)And our trans extended family loves DU....though won't join no matter how much arm twisting I do .
damnedifIknow
(3,183 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)mmonk
(52,589 posts)TDale313
(7,820 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,311 posts)What I've learned on du is how to be more supportive and respectful.
My first boyfriend once told me - "be kind to transgender people. You think we have it hard? Multiply it times 10"
We used the T-word back then. Not ever thinking about it or knowing any better. That's how our transgender friends we met out and about referred to themselves. Now, out of respect, and a little growing up, we don't use that term.
We learn as we go.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Pity not everyone here does...
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Just got this!
Subject: Human Rights Ordinance
From: pflagsedona@gmail.com
I am proud to report that this evening the Sedona City Council unanimously approved the following Human Rights Ordinance:
"It is declared to be the policy for the citizens of the City of Sedona, Arizona, to be free from discrimination in public accommodations, employment, and housing, and contrary to public policy and unlawful to discriminate against any person on the basis of race, color, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, national origin, marital status, familial status, age, disability, or veteran status, in places of public accommodation, employment, and housing; and contrary to the policy of the City and unlawful for vendors and contractors doing business with the City to discriminate, as set forth in this chapter."
Please be sure to thank them for their careful and thoughtful study and conclusion on this most important issue.
Best Regards,
***********
PFLAG Sedona/Verde Valley
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Last edited Wed Sep 9, 2015, 02:12 PM - Edit history (1)
Wish I were joking, but then again, I probably shouldn't be too surprised either. Is this Donnie McClurkin part deux?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12598612
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I don't think he was only referring to Nye Bevan. It seemed to me that he was making the point that there are many on DU who still don't understand the transgender issue. Posts like the one Nye Bevan posted, however you feel about it, open up a discussion, which is why this board is here - for discussion. Some may benefit from the ensuing education through discussion. That was my take on his comment.
Whether people think Nye Bevan has some ulterior motive for posting his/her threads or not, I just wish posters would not feel the need to be so ugly. "Go f*** yourself" comments simply make the poster saying that look immature and incapable of disagreeing without being utterly disagreeable.
Stupid and counterproductive too because those posts are inevitably hidden. And no, cussing someone out doesn't make one look like a tough guy.
I seldom vote to hide posts when in jury, but I don't hesitate to vote to hide those type posts, no matter who says it or what it's in response to.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)do shit like purposely misgender the transgender, keep bringing up "bathroom security issues" even when the OP and topic had nothing to do with that, call the transgender delusional, etc. When they do that, repeatedly, over periods of months or years, and the posts just slide by because the poster needs to be "educated" rather than disciplined, that is a huge problem.
In fact, I would say that you, personally, are making this board worse and not a welcome place for transgender individuals. Are you proud of that?
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I haven't even commented except very briefly on this subject. I'm a gay woman, and you are very much mistaken if you think I have a problem with transgender folks.
Please show me where I have made transgender folks unwelcome here.
Secondly, I don't keep tabs on "groups of posters" who may be harping on the same subject, so excuse me for not knowing if some "group" has got you all nettled up about something. I rarely remember who responds to me or to whom I respond at any time.
I don't like bullies and I don't like the gang ups that so many here seem to enjoy. I respond to many threads, but have no alliances with anyone.
Accuse me of whatever you want. I find you very rude. I just wish people didn't get so damn hostile to each other all the time here. No one knows how to just respectfully discuss and disagree.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)not likely to vote to hide one of their posts. But if someone drops an f-bomb, that's a cause for a hide? But that person who repeatedly misgenders transgender people, or say they don't want to share a bathroom with them, well they get the benefit of a doubt. Please, don't fake innocence here, if your judgement is that bad, do us all a favor and excuse yourself from the jury pool.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I never said I would not hide a bigoted post, and I have hidden them in the past.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. But you really should take a deep breath.
You're out of line making these false accusations against me. WAY out of line.
Again, SHOW me where I said I would NOT hide a bigoted post? Nope. You won't find it.
All I have said is that I WILL hide posts that are personal attacks, and I'm pretty sure the admins would agree with that policy. Personal attacks make DU suck.
Not sure why you've got such a mad-on with me, but you know nothing about me.
I take jury duty seriously and judge each case on its merits. I don't vote to hide posts from posters I don't care for (looks like you've joined that very short list) just because I don't care for them. And I have voted to hide posts from posters I like if I feel the alert is justified.
You have a nice day now since I know you cannot show me a post from me saying I would not hide a bigoted post. And I don't know what you mean by one of "their" posts because I don't know who "they" are. Perhaps you keep dossiers on posters here.
I don't.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Look at the links I embedded in it, would any of those been worthy of a hide?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026332913
More recently, would posts such as this, or this be worthy of a hide?
cwydro
(51,308 posts)that YOU do not have to answer the one I asked.
You could not find a post where I said I would not hide a bigoted post. All I said is that I WILL hide personal attacks. I don't care if someone "drops an f-bomb" as you so eloquently put it. I DO care when someone attacks another DUer. The attack might not even be profane, but if it is nasty and personal, I will hide it. Most jurors do. Look at the jury results on that one poster who continued to attack another poster. It's not just me who dislikes personal attacks.
I'm not going to sit here clicking on all your links, nor would I judge any post that has not been alerted.
I've kicked your thread quite enough. You've been extremely rude to me for no apparent reason, and you won't apologize for making untrue accusations. So I've no wish to interact with you further.
Yes, it IS possible to disagree politely with bigots. Rosa Parks did it, Martin Luther King Jr. did it, Maya Angelou did it, Lyndon Johnson did it...I could go on. I'm sorry you weren't taught that it is possible to disagree without being nasty.
Reason will triumph in the end, but profanity and nasty personal attacks simply push people away.
Good evening.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)You claim you wouldn't but that's really in the eye of the beholder, people's prejudices color their positions all the time, so I was trying to figure yours out.
kcr
(15,313 posts)"I seldom vote to hide posts when in jury, but I don't hesitate to vote to hide those type posts, no matter who says it or what it's in response to."
I have agree with the poster you're responding to. If you aren't going to hide bigoted posts, but are going to hide the responses to them because you don't think they're civil, that's a problem. I think that's a big part of the problem of the jury system.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)azmom
(5,208 posts)Tree-Hugger
(3,370 posts)Thank God I was raised well. I've never been able to wrap my head around the hatred and exclusion of people based on gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, culture, etc.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)and I'm very excited to be a part of it.
Tree-Hugger
(3,370 posts)Certain posts in these threads remind me of klansmen or white supremicists who say crap like, "we don't hate black people, we just don't want them mixing with whites "
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)language. Its dog-whistle politics, think Cadillac driving welfare queens.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)We don't support transphobia or other such crap.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)but my *ahem* vehement support last night got me a little time out.
Rex
(65,616 posts)that called 11 million dead jews - Foxnews viewers. Sometimes we see such outragous bullshit, we have to step up and say something. Even if it costs us.
libodem
(19,288 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)A great way to solve this is to have family and gender neutral restrooms become the norm.
Skittles
(153,104 posts)YES INDEED
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)Trans people should be allowed a safe place to pee, in the bathroom of any gender they feel comfortable identifying as, whether or not transphobic DUers have checked their pants and papers first.