Thank you Nye Bevan, and more importantly, thank you Skinner.

[Decoy of Fenris]

Thanks to Nye, for starting this ongoing discussion burning across half a dozen threads. Thank you as well for giving me the impetus to examine myself in the mirror and find myself woefully ignorant and inadequate in regards to the many and varied struggles of LGBT people. Finally, thank you for being the catalyst of my (hopefully swift) evolution in regards to the LGBT community.

And a thank you goes to you, Skinner, for being calm and rational enough to understand that we all have failings; some of us wish to correct them, and sometimes, a discussion (flame-war?) like the one currently raging is enough to make an ally out of someone who was otherwise apathetic.


I likely won't stick around for the shit-storm I have no doubt is coming my way for posting this, so I'll just leave on a fairly simple note:

Not everyone is perfect, not everyone sees eye to eye, and not everyone has all the knowledge they should. We all have our flaws, and people like Nye, intentionally trolling or not, let people like myself reflect from time to time, seeing the places in our lives we need to improve upon. For that, I truly am exceptionally thankful.

-Decoy-

[Fumesucker]

1. I was on another site this morning that's also kind of liberal politically

And someone was lamenting the fact that a great many posters there are so quick to take the worst possible meaning from every word others write.

The lament would have fit perfectly here on DU also.

[Zorra]

2. Context is important. It is generally a good idea to take an individual's posting history

into account, in order to more accurately determine the individual's motivations for making a post.

Particularly in the case of vague posts that large numbers of intelligent and perceptive people believe to be offensive.

[HERVEPA]

3. Exactly

[Fumesucker]

11. I'm not here enough any more to really keep track of who posts what

I've had things I've written here jumped on and taken completely out of the context I meant them in, it's practically a sport on the DU.

If there's one thing I've learned being online since 300 baud modems it's that writing what you actually mean clearly and unambiguously is one of the more difficult things in life.

In fact I wrote an OP about it back in February..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026279173

[Decoy of Fenris]

4. That's just the internet in general, I think.

People tend to congregate where they think they share the greatest amount of ideological overlap, so when someone shows up with a differing opinion it inevitably ends up in either a one-sided beatdown or a minor civil war. Very few stop to consider those who lurk, watching and reading and learning (or at least trying to learn.)

[Fumesucker]

7. I know I don't expect to change the mind of another poster, particularly a prolific one

On the other hand the lurker/poster ratio on most boards is pretty high and I'd guess that DU has a quite high ratio because it's so combative here a lot of people simply aren't going to subject themselves to the abuse so freely dispensed on the DU.

[Decoy of Fenris]

9. Agreed on both counts.

Long time posters, especially ones with a posting history as long as Nye's, are very unlikely to change their views on much of anything no matter what evidence or charges are leveled against them. The dialogue they encourage, though, will be read by many and the arguments made in those types of threads can be enough to shift the stances of those who read them. That's why I've been lurking here as long as I have; the shared wisdom and knowledge of the board and its members is fantastic and I've found myself questioning and changing my views on a fair few things since then.

[LanternWaste]

5. It's difficult for a rational mind to find the best possible meaning of intolerance and bigotry.

It's difficult for a rational mind to find the best possible meaning of intolerance and bigotry. Which also perfectly fits DU also, regardless of what we pretend isn't there.

[Rex]

6. Burp, fart, snort.

Fart fart snort snort burp.

-Fart-

[cwydro]

30. Wow, I can actually kind of see you there

on the recliner doing just that.

[Rex]

32. Beans always do that to me!

Pardon!

[Kingofalldems]

8. Honestly, I have no idea of what you are talking about.

[longship]

10. However, one should be judged by ones behavior, not ones opinion.

That is what has gone astray here on DU.

People just do not know how to behave. They act like two year olds. Instead of being adult, they pitch tantrums. Sophomoric behavior solves no problems.

DU sucks these days because of this. And many intelligent DUers are gone because of the childishness here.

[Decoy of Fenris]

12. Granted as a rather broad generalization.

The majority of folks here at DU are civil and well-meaning, but every now and then, someone steps on the wrong toes and that starts an avalanche like the one we're seeing now. It turns into a one-sided black-or-white slugfest without regards to the people in between.

I'm not saying Nye's acting like a stand-up model DU member, but antics like his do have some small merit. As mentioned upthread, discussions like this are where hearts and minds are won and minds are changed; conflict breeds evolution. Those who hold die-hard beliefs, like Nye, will not change their views, but he likely won't win anyone to his cause, either. Contrarily, well-reasoned and well-argued positions (as opposed to knee-jerk reactionary responses) have incredibly transformative properties. DU may often boil over in a flamefest like this, but the discussion that it starts can be valuable beyond measure so long as cooler heads prevail and discussions can stay relatively civil and grounded in reality.

[longship]

14. Again, I judge people by their behavior, not their political opinions.

That is all one can do here. If I agree with somebody who acts like an asshole, than I cannot support them. If I disagree with a person who is willing to discuss things with reason in spite of the disagreement, that is a different matter. I prefer the latter. Honestly, far too many here behave like fucking jerks. That is what has to end if we are going to accomplish anything.

It is really simple. How many old time DU activists do we have to drive off before we realize that we are harming ourselves more than we are helping ourselves?

DU sucks these days! But only because of the overwhelming divisive sophomoric behavior by DUers. For Christ sakes! We have even divided ourselves into sterilized candidate forums! I think the term "Balkanization" comes to mind. And the Goebbels who police those forums will kick out any who dare go against the "party" (at least as seen by the thugs adjudicating the forum rules.)

DU is no longer a political site to help the Democratic Party. It is a war zone where bitter and petty factions can fling poo at each other with no consideration to the consequences.

I say, it would be better if we closed the whole thing down.

I am beginning to hate this place. Too many of my good friends have also left in disgust.

Please consider.

[Decoy of Fenris]

16. Might wanna make that an OP if you have a thick enough skin, mate. You have valid points. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. And some of us are now just ignoring subjects

whole sale.

Subjects that otherwise we are interested on and talk about ELSEWHERE.

[longship]

19. You are one of the stalwarts, Nadine.

One who stands up against it all. Maybe it is your journalism background that enables you to do that. Whatever, I would gladly stand next to you to defend what DU once was, and is sadly no longer.

Before it was something that united all of us. Now it is a multitude of war zones. Bernie forum, Hillary forum, O'Malley forum, and even the Elizabeth Fucking Warren forum (who as much as begged supporters to stop promoting her as a presidential candidate). The Balkanization of DU will be our end. If Skinner, Elad, and EarlG do not see this, we are all doomed.

If the two-year olds fomenting this shit don't see it... Well, one can get the idea.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. And you forget the other forums

But yup and they actually want that.

[longship]

25. You know! I will always have your back, Nadine.

I will gladly stand beside you.


Some folks here deserve respect. No matter.

[randys1]

27. oh brother

[demmiblue]

15. Shite, I was wrong about this post (only seeing the title).

I thought it was a thank you to Nye for, once again, outing himself...

and a huge thank you to Skinner for FINALLY banning him.

Lol! Oh well...

[Decoy of Fenris]

17. Sorry to disappoint. :( n/t

[morningfog]

28. He has been flagged for review. Now is Skinner's chance

To do the right thing. Enough is enough.

[Control-Z]

18. Can you give a reference

or link to what this about please? I'm lost.

[Decoy of Fenris]

20. Posts made in GD recently regarding the rights of transgender people.

There's... I'd guess six or eight threads open and active right now in GD, most centered around Nye Bevan's personal views. I'd rather you come to your own conclusions in regards to the content of his posts rather than have me summarize them, though.

[Control-Z]

21. Thanks! n/t

[Decoy of Fenris]

22. Any time. :) n/t

[yardwork]

24. The threads aren't about your personal views, Nye.

The push polls were started by you to stir shit. And now you're congratulating yourself.

[morningfog]

31. The very definition of a disruptive troll.

Because of one long time bigot, DU is distracted by arguing with a bigot.

[Rex]

35. You mean most people don't thank trolls for making them think critically?

Yeah this thread is about as sad as it gets imo. Me passing wind is more thought provoking.

[morningfog]

26. Unless Skinner finally banned Nye, I got no thanks.

[cwydro]

29. Yes, I posted and agreed in another thread where someone had referenced Skinner's response in ATA.

Of course, I was attacked for it, but that poster seems to have a problem with me anyway.

I think Skinner was right. People can LEARN from all of our discussions. We should not shut down threads we disagree with.

I love DU. I don't believe in jury rigging or alert rigging or whatever it is people want to call it.

I think the system is good. Only thing I miss is when the mods just shut down a flamefest because it was useless.

But the system is good. Imo.

And for god's sake, can we not just be CIVIL with one another??? If you hate a poster, just ignore them.

If you disagree, do it in a mature and thoughtful manner.

[Starry Messenger]

33. No thanks.

[kwassa]

34. So, you are thanking someone for trolling, because it makes you think?

Why don't we just open this place up to every troll imaginable?