General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPretty odd that on 9/11 a FREAK accident sends a BIN LADEN crane crashing through the holiest mosque
in the world, in the holiest Islamic site in the world, during a FREAK electrical storm. That's right the effing crane is owned by the Bin Laden's.
Hmmm. Seems like, whatever god is the real god, isn't too happy with the fact ISIS asshats and those who fund them are committing atrocities in it's name. Just sayin.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3231117/At-62-people-dead-crane-collapses-Grand-Mosque-Mecca.html
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)Statistics was bound to catch up sooner or later
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)rec for irony
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)Be interesting to see what the folks in Mecca are saying.
amazing co-incidence if not.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)Even suggesting that is beyond the pale given that ISIS wouldn't need much encouragement to blow up St Peters or Notre Dame or any other cultural gem in retaliation.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)so lump them in there too.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)We can make lightning strike an object at will? Damn... we are gods, all must bow before us
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Good luck finding a crane owned by anybody else in a prominent site in the area.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Retrograde
(10,133 posts)the original Bin Laden - father of Osama and many, many more - got his start as a construction contractor and went on to build one of the largest construction companies in the Middle East if not the world. That's where the family money comes from. Mr. Retrograde, who spent more time than he cared to in Saudi Arabia, says he saw Bin Laden equipment everywhere.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)The Binladen Group is the second largest construction company ON THE PLANET (only Vinci in France is bigger), and the largest in Saudi Arabia. They're also the primary construction company used by the Saudi government because Mohammed bin Laden (Osama's dad) was personal friends with Aziz al Saud (the founder of Saudi Arabia) and the Binladen Group played that friendship into a deal that gives them exclusive control of all construction in and around Mecca.
If there's a major construction accident in Saudi Arabia, there is a nearly 100% chance that the Bin Laden family is connected to it in some way.
jfern
(5,204 posts)Oh wait....
LuvNewcastle
(16,844 posts)in action. A lot of them are just queers who get caught or admit to being queer.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It is the seat of the faith for ALL sects--not just sunni.
And the Bin Ladins do all the construction for the KSA royal family. Usama's father started the company--the rogue son never had too much to do with it, but he shares the name.
What is odd is the coincidence of the date and the "family name" of the construction company.
Oddly enough, the construction that was already done (the tawaf bridges to accommodate the increased crowds that come for hajj) stopped a lot of the crane from falling on the people below. It broke the fall.
Hajj is soon, in less than two weeks--they are going to have to work like mad to get the place ready--and it's not like they can move the venue; the hajj has to take place in that spot, in that place.
Warpy
(111,249 posts)I just hope they aren't allowed to act on it.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)case how could such a freak event be interpreted other than Allah smoting his worshipers?
Warpy
(111,249 posts)and why would any god wait 14 years to unleash it? Or unleash it on random people?
That never stopped conspiracy nuts, of course.
They never seem to realize that this is just sad.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)The Great Flood drowned random people. Since when has the Abrahamic deity been rational?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)There is a whole story in the OT about someone, I think it's LOt, negotiating with God if 100 people in those cities were found to be good people, then 50, then 10 and even that many good people couldn't be found, so the cities were destroyed.
so if you believe what is written there, good folks weren't sacrificed, there were no good folks there.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)What about the Flood? There the angry diety just Noah and kin. No other good people worth saving? No children were saving?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)out at 50 and got down to 10. Not even 10 righteous people could be found in the whole city of Sodom. http://biblehub.com/genesis/18-23.htm
Now the flood, that's another story.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)On the Grand Canyon Facebook page, they highlighted shell fossils found in the area, and of course scads of morons were claiming it was from Noah's flood 4,000 years ago.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Most believers would, at this point, wallow into the allegory morass as an explanation for the routine depiction of the angry bloody Yahweh.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)What happened in Sodom and Gomorrah, and I remember the way it was taught to me.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)When dealing with mythology, anything goes. You can make it up to suit your message/propaganda.
kdmorris
(5,649 posts)Lot sent his daughters out to be raped by a crowd rather than let this angel be taken.
How the fuck does that make him a good person? Why was he randomly saved?
The point was that it was random. Capricious. How many other cities in that day were the same way and didn't get destroyed? Why did Lot get to live when he let his teenage virgin daughters be gang-raped?
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)So they could get him drunk and rape him later?
I'm just guessing tho'.....
kdmorris
(5,649 posts)God always has a plan!!!
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Imagine a city with not one 'good' person in it. Im-fucking-possible.
Then again, this god you're referring to judged every man woman and child, plus animals, planet-wide in the flood story, right?
Apparently this god never heard of the axiom; 'if you meet one asshole, he's an asshole, but if everyone you meet seems like an asshole, YOU'RE the asshole.'
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)How can you have a city full of evil people and no pregnant women or women who have recently given birth. Isn't being "evil" in these cities having too much sex, which certainly results in pregnancies.
And good point on your referenced axiom.
truebrit71
(20,805 posts)...should be taken with a large pillar of salt...yes?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)rusty fender
(3,428 posts)it is the Christian God, then it is him, his son and the Holy Ghost
But you are right: logic never stopped the conspiracy nuts from flailing away.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)phylny
(8,379 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Never knew that, how strange indeed.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)When I google for it, what comes up is Jame Mosque of Yazd. So no clue.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)according to news.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Masjid al-Haram
The world is a mixture of strange occurrences and outright irony.
DustyJoe
(849 posts)the crane missed the sacred magic black box
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)I wish they'd let someone study it - I think they have in the past but our tech is better now. I'd like to know more about it. Or maybe I am off my rocker.
MADem
(135,425 posts)This is a pretty thorough description/history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)The nature of the Black Stone has been much debated. It has been described variously as basalt stone, an agate, a piece of natural glass or most popularly a stony meteorite. Paul Partsch, the curator of the Austro-Hungarian imperial collection of minerals, published the first comprehensive history of the Black Stone in 1857 in which he favoured a meteoritic origin for the Stone.[39] Robert Dietz and John McHone proposed in 1974 that the Black Stone was actually an agate, judging from its physical attributes and a report by an Arab geologist that the Stone contained clearly discernible diffusion banding characteristic of agates.[2]
A significant clue to its nature is provided by an account of the Stone's recovery in 951 AD after it had been stolen 21 years earlier; according to a chronicler, the Stone was identified by its ability to float in water. If this account is accurate, it would rule out the Black Stone being an agate, a basalt lava or a stony meteorite, though it would be compatible with it being glass or pumice.[5]
Elsebeth Thomsen of the University of Copenhagen proposed a different hypothesis in 1980. She suggested that the Black Stone may be a glass fragment or impactite from the impact of a fragmented meteorite that fell some 6,000 years ago at Wabar,[40] a site in the Rub' al Khali desert 1,100 km east of Mecca. The craters at Wabar are notable for the presence of blocks of silica glass, fused by the heat of the impact and impregnated with beads of a nickel-iron alloy from the meteorite (most of which was destroyed in the impact). Some of the glass blocks are made of shiny black glass, with a white or yellow interior and gas-filled hollows, which allow them to float on water.[5] Although scientists did not become aware of the Wabar craters until 1932, they were located near a caravan route from Oman and were very likely known to the inhabitants of the desert. The wider area was certainly well-known; in ancient Arabic poetry, Wabar or Ubar (also known as "Iram of the Pillars" was the site of a fabulous city that was destroyed by fire from the heavens because of the wickedness of its king. If the estimated age of the crater is accurate, it would have been well within the period of human habitation in Arabia and the impact itself may have been witnessed.[5]A recent (2004) scientific analysis of the Wabar site suggests that the impact event happened much more recently than first thought and might have occurred only within the last 200300 years.[41]
The meteoritic hypothesis is now viewed by geologists as doubtful. The British Natural History Museum suggests that it may be a pseudometeorite, in other words a terrestrial rock mistakenly attributed to a meteoritic origin.
Still no one seems to know for sure what it's composition is, shame.
MADem
(135,425 posts)(they all fought about who would get to stick it in the corner), so the story goes, and Muhamad set the stone.
There is a Persian image of Muhamad doing just this (from back when people weren't so squeamish about 'graven images' you see). That's himself at the center:
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,308 posts)tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Response to Rex (Reply #16)
A HERETIC I AM This message was self-deleted by its author.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It is the holiest site in Islam, where the ka'aba is sited, where Ibrahim (aka Abraham) ostensibly declared that there is but one God as opposed to assorted Gods.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Thank goodness so many people caught that!
MADem
(135,425 posts)guardians of the Holy Places, but so long as the House of Saud holds sway in KSA, that is not going to happen.
Rex
(65,616 posts)life is stranger than fiction imo.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The Bin Ladins build everything for the House of Saud. They have been in business for decades, and their name is associated with construction in KSA. They don't associate that "bad apple" with the rest of the family. Their claim to fame isn't "that guy" -- it's all of the fancy construction they have done down the years.
They have expanded the Grand Mosque, built the bridges so more people can do tawaf, and they even built an airconditioned tunnel so people can do the run back and forth between Safa and Marwah. All of this makes hajj more efficient--and hajj is a HUGE (say it like Trump!) moneymaker for KSA. HUGE!!! Also, it cements the status of the KSA as the center of Islam, and of the House of Saud as the anointed guardians of the Holy Places. It's a really, really big deal, which is why they over-do, over-decorate, and over-air-condition everything.
The Royal Family like lots of buildings. They overbuild, IMO.
As I said, many in KSA will regard this accident as a martyrdom that saved many more--maybe even thousands--that might have been killed had the accident happened two weeks from now when the place would have been PACKED. I'll bet they're checking and re-checking every fricken crane in the immediate region right about now.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)who it is written have smote innocent people all the time for the sins of others.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)god is upset with ISIS and funders so is killing other people.
If that is not what you mean, please clarify, since it is the POV of your OP.
YabaDabaNoDinoNo
(460 posts)NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)LuvNewcastle
(16,844 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)termed as synchronicity.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Historic NY
(37,449 posts)Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)to anyone, but it does give one pause.
I wish we would call them ISIL, even though I forget to do so myself, because Isis was cool, and I have a friend with a doggie with that name ( a gorgeous wolf hybrid) and that pup told me she is very offended to be associated in any way with humans as savage as those evil people.
K&R
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I was juror #7, looks like juror #2 and I were temporarily sharing the same brain.
On Fri Sep 11, 2015, 08:45 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Pretty odd that on 9/11 a FREAK accident sends a BIN LADEN crane crashing through the holiest mosque
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027162168
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
I'm sorry but there is absolutely NO REASON WHATSOEVER we should rejoice in the fact that 62 people died today in that crane crash. It just makes DUers look as bad as teabaggers when they get all gleeful about things like Jimmy Carter having brain cancer. Absolutely disgusting!!!
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Sep 11, 2015, 08:50 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see no rejoicing, simply a statement pointing out irony.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: To the alerter: I don't see glee and rejoicing in this post.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think the op is a bit over the top but it isn't offending me enough to hide it. Seems to me whatever responses come along will address it properly. We are supposed to be a discussion site, after all.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Poster did not seem like he was rejoicing, just noting an ironic occurrence.
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)and the biblical proportions of the event (temple destroyed, freak lightening zigzagging down from the heavens.)
Very grateful to you and all the other jurors who saw that nothing in the OP that suggests rejoicing over a tragic loss of lives.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)Islam does not == ISIL or 'terrorism' or Bin Laden.
Your post is shameful and isn't worthy of even a right wing fundie discussion board.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)The event was indisputably ironic. Pointing out ironies is hardly an indication of prejudice.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)but I don't get the 'irony'. Can you explain?
107 people died at the mosque. What does that have to do with ISIL?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,308 posts)No, you're not "pointing out ironies", you're claiming this was divine retribution:
"Seems like, whatever god is the real god, isn't too happy with the fact ISIS asshats and those who fund them are committing atrocities in it's name. Just sayin. "
If the retribution happens to some Muslims in the Grand Mosque in Mecca - who are pretty much drawn from all Muslims in the world - then you are equating Muslims in general with ISIS. And you think your deity does too.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)Abrahamic faiths and natural disaster is one way that gets accomplished. It is the POV of believers not mine. You impose your rationality on a deity not known for rationality. What is rational about a supposedly merciful deity dishing out divine punishment either in this life or the next?
snip
II. Natural Disasters or Divine Punishment?
Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad
The Review of Religions, January 1994
....according to the Holy Quran, the laws of nature can be deployed, under Divine Will, to reward or punish man.
snip
...How terrible then was My chastisement and My warning! We sent against them a furious wind, for a long period of time of un-ending ill-luck, which tore people away as though they were trunks of uprooted and hollow palm trees.' [54:19-21]
snip
...Thy Lord then let fall on them the whip(*) of punishment. Surely thy Lord is on the watch. [89:14-15]
snip
... Allah (enveloped) it in hunger and fear (which clothed it like) a garment because of what they used to do.' [16:113]
https://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000037.html
muriel_volestrangler
(101,308 posts)OK, your OP is bullshit. If you found someone saying this was about ISIS, then you should have pointed that out, rather than making it up. It's not 'ironic' when it's only in your head. So far, we see that it's only in your head that the victims are associated with ISIS.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)and the facts are indeed ironic. You may want to familiarize yourself with the term tongue- in- cheek as that is where my tongue was planted and fyi the god I had foremost in mind was the despised Goddess Bel whose magnificent and ancient temple was recently blasted to smithereens.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,308 posts)You're not doing that 'tongue-in-cheek'. You are saying "these Muslims are all the same to me, and I'll make a joke about a hundred of them dying, because of what ISIS did".
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)Furthermore you clearly do not understand the concept of tongue-in-cheek.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,308 posts)Wow, you're getting worse and worse.
I understand the concept of tongue-in-cheek. I just know it's not appropriate when over 100 people died.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)blame is to be placed on the Bin Laden company, the site managers or the operator will you accuse him of ignoring the victims? If someone posts about the corrupt and irrational justice system in SA but doesn't mention the victims will you accuse him of ignoring the victims.
There are difference aspects to every news story, the most important is the tragic loss of lives but there is more to every story. That there is such a strange irony to this story is a fact, not an important fact in the great scheme of things, but nevertheless part of the story.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,308 posts)This is why your OP and posts have been so appalling. You've taken the whole thing as 'funny', based on the ownership of the construction company.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)it would be imo out of place to remark about the victims. And as I already stated the concept of divine retribution via natural occurrences is a part of Islam in fact it is an aspect of most primitive faiths. It is a concept I find abhorrent and ludicrous. Since it is an intrinsic part of Islam it's not beyond the pale to wonder if this event would be an instance of it.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,308 posts)That's offensive. You may be so clueless that you still don't realise that, after all this conversation, but it is. You manage to recognise a problem about being 'out of place', but that doesn't mean you get to talk about the event and pretend it isn't about the dead.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)That you want to see this solely in terms of lives lost is fine but there are other aspects to this story and my narrowly focusing on one aspect without reference to the victims is not beyond the pale.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,308 posts)in order, you're saying, to have something to be offended by, and to make jokes about. The 'aspect' you focus on is not part of what happened.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)the words written. Can you explain your interpretation?
Matariki
(18,775 posts)The OP appears to be making the point that someone's 'real' god (not sure what that means - is it some sort of Allah vs American Jesus or something?) is punishing members of the mosque (with death and destruction) on 9/11 because they are somehow related to terrorists, or related to Bin Laden, or supporting ISIL.
It doesn't read that way to you? What do you think the OP is saying or trying to say?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)and if you think the Universe isn't made of discord and chaos, you're not paying attention.
ryan_cats
(2,061 posts)YabaDabaNoDinoNo
(460 posts)crane while they are praying to him. So it was meant to be or as they say in that part of the world it is Allah's Will.
I personally say oh well shit happens and mostly likely that shit being something wrong with the set up and or operation of it or massive failure of a structural component of the crane.
Now not being one who believes in the omnipotent god or any god for that matter I got to admit it is pretty funny to see the god being wasting a bunch of his supporters
Yeah, yeah, yeah tragedy and all that but one has got to admit it is funny.
There is always humor in everything.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Verrrry interesting.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)as it was on the 11th.
To suggest otherwise demonstrates nothing but ignorance and superstitious thought, and places one one the same level as Pat Robertson, et al.
snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)the anniversary of the invasion of Iraq would be the equivalent of this and such an occurrence would be odd. You may want to acquaint yourself with the concept of tongue-in-cheek because your reading that one sentence literally is beyond absurd.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)I guess ol' God was trying to send a message! That's the only conclusion I can draw!
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/2-churches-burned-down-at-easter-begin-rebuilding-at-christmas-1.2884355
MADem
(135,425 posts)If you compared "two churches" to two community mosques, you'd have a point.
But you need to compare a crane crashing into the Vatican to find anything approaching equivalency, here.
And the Vatican is not even a mandatory site of pilgrimage for 1.6 billion people--the Grand Mosque--and specifically, the ka'aba, IS.
That pilgrimage starts in two weeks. If this had happened on 25 Sep, many, many more would have died.
The take-away will be that the new construction of the tawaf bridges (that broke the fall of the crane) not only spared the ka'aba, but it also spared many of the worshippers in the mosque for Friday prayer. Also, because this happened now, and not when the masjid was packed (and it does get PACKED) with people doing the rituals of the hajj, this tragedy now will be seen as having spared many more people. The 100+ people who died will be seen as martyrs to those making hajj this year.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)I don't buy any of this religious bullshit, and I get sick of people saying "this happened because God thinks X" or "God is taking revenge" or some other nonsensical justifications for manmade and natural disasters.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's not about what "you" buy, the point here is that Mecca is the religious center for one point six BILLION with a B Muslims, similar to (but not quite like) the Vatican being the seat of faith for Roman Catholics. They are going to have an approach to this that will be colored by their religiosity. That can't be dismissed.
Those Muslims "do buy" this "religious bullshit," and they will regard this event as an indicator of divine mercy, not as "God taking revenge," because the hajj is due to start on the 25th, and had this happened at that time and not now, and the place been packed, as many as a thousand or more might have died (had this happened at hajj with a stampede following the crane falling, it could have been thousands killed/wounded).
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)whether or not it is on their side: "Hmmm. Seems like, whatever god is the real god, isn't too happy with the fact ISIS asshats and those who fund them are committing atrocities in it's name. Just sayin."
That is just moronic. It's just as moronic as suggesting a church would be burned down at Easter time for some divine reason. The sarcasm was to make the point.
And, yeah, of course I get that millions of Muslims will interpret this accident in some way. It's pretty sad that some will think that good ol' Allah was merciful for only slaughtering 107 of them. It's like when the good ol' Christian God wipes out a town with a tornado, and then the few survivors fall all over themselves to praise the deity for sparing them for some special reason. That's the height of narcissism, especially in a universe of 100 billion galaxies.
As someone participating on a discussion board, I am free to post my own opinion, emphasis on my own, that the Abrahamic religions are nonsensical mythologies, and that interpretations of "God's/Allah's will" as a punishment/reward system are putridly idiotic.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Of course you are ... free to post my own opinion, emphasis on my own, that the Abrahamic religions are nonsensical mythologies blah blah blah.... so no need to be so hot-breathed and defensive. No one is 'stopping you' from doing that .... but I didn't get any of that from your post.
What I got from your post is that you were comparing two piddling little churches in the middle of nowhere to the center of religious life for one point six billion devout people.
Apples and oranges, you see--or perhaps raisins to watermelons.
Your comparison was just terribly flawed.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)So what if two churches are different than a mosque? It's pretty obvious that I was saying that pointing a finger and saying "God is displeased and is taking it out on a religious building" is stupid in any context.
But, hey, sorry to ruin your day with my terribly worded post. I hope you can continue on today...
MADem
(135,425 posts)point."
Your comment wasn't obvious at all. In fact, it highlighted your paucity of understanding as to the significance of this event in Mecca.
You didn't ruin my day, but judging by your pique, I fear I may have discombobulated yours.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)really ... it's kinda bizarre.
But, hey, have a good day. My day is fine, except that I have to work in between DU breaks.
MADem
(135,425 posts)You have a good day as well, then!
deathrind
(1,786 posts)At a construction site, no more, no less. They happen quite frequently.
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)How so?
Ironic, yes. Odd, no.
Like Lawrence Krauss says (paraphrasing) "The universe is very old and very big and amazing coincidences happen all the time."
tblue37
(65,336 posts)for devastating natural disasters.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Not nearly as odd as thinking an all-powerful, omnipotent being would kill over a hundred random people because of ISIS. If he were really motivated to do something about the killing in the Middle East, surely we would be better served if he put forth the effort and smote those who are actually doing the killing.
ProfessorGAC
(65,001 posts)Sheesh! Lighten up folks.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)It's also pretty odd that we resort to post hoc ergo prompter hoc arguments for lack of anything better.
I'd always figured that if that particular fallacy is the best position I can offer, I should stay quiet rather than appearing as an irrational and under-educated person.
Just sayin.