The universe just whacked me upside the head with a two-by-four yesterday.

[raccoon]

I posted some time ago about a Sunday school class I used to attend. One day the leader wasn’t there, and the members of the class got onto every right-wing meme you could imagine—only one of which was “everybody ought to learn English. I don’t like ‘press 1 for English, 2 for Spanish.” I never went back.
Well, yesterday I tried again at a difference church. Silly me! I went to a Sunday school class, first time I had ever attended that church. At first the members of the class were nice and welcoming.

Then…they got onto right-wing bullshit. Against socialism. One woman said Obama had ruined the country. I said George Bush ruined the country. The woman said she liked George Bush. She also said she was a Republican. I finally thought, the hell with this, said, “I’m sorry, I’ve got to go.” And left. They asked me to visit again. Yeah, right.

These were both United Methodist churches, but this kind of crap is not limited to that denomination.

It says a lot that I ran into this twice…and yesterday was the first time in at least a year that I had gone to church. It makes me wonder how much of this crap goes on. If people want to believe this stuff, that is their right, but leave it out of church.

Many of our churches have been poisoned by the conservative/Republican/right-wing philosophy. In fact, they apparently perceive this philosophy as part of their church’s doctrine.

Some of you may be thinking that I must be Rip van Winkle not to have known this. My excuses: first, I would have expected this from very conservative denominations, such as Southern Baptists, but not from United Methodists, second, there’s nothing like actually experiencing something.

At least one DUer mentioned some denominations that are said to be more liberal. And they may be, I don’t know.

I am not a real religious person but at least in the red states, that’s the best place to find yourself a community. But it’s not a route I’m going to take any more. Either I’ll go to the local Unitarian church, or if someone can give me a first-hand reference that some church is not like that, I might give it a try. Or just stick to my 12-step groups.

Does anyone think I should talk to the minister about this, if only to tell her I visited, this is what happened, and this is why I'll never go back again? I don’t plan to right now.

[monmouth4]

1. I think Churches should be taxed. Mention this to your minister, see what he/she says...

[raccoon]

3. I think they should be too. nt

[yeoman6987]

16. I don't think any church, group, company, non profit

Or anybody should be tax free.

[tecelote]

27. +1

I don't see how it can be legal. All religions should support our country through taxes like the rest of us.

[hifiguy]

33. "TAX the CHURCHES.

TAX the BUSINESSES OWNED by the CHURCHES."

Frank Zappa

[former9thward]

38. Maybe Zappa should have talked to the IRS before he said that.

Businesses owned by Churches are taxed like any other business.

[peacebird]

2. I would mention it to the minister. People should leave their politics outside the church door and

Their churches outside of the government.

[CTyankee]

4. Are you somewhere in North Carolina?

My niece, a United Methodist Church minister, has a congregation there. I am not a believer and have no religious affiliation whatsoever. I also have a stepdaughter who is a Reform Rabbi. It's kind of weird.

[raccoon]

7. SC. nt

[CTyankee]

8. I don't think she is pro-choice but she is quite nice.

I needed to call her recently and tell her that her dad left some valuable property when he died that she is entitled to inherit. We had a really nice conversation about her dad, my brother. I hadn't seen her since his service.

[SCantiGOP]

14. Try the Unitarian Universalist congregation in Shandon

Extremely liberal. I'm not a believer, but my wife and I still attend on occasion. They were of great help years ago when she was a witness at an execution (she worked for a death penalty defense group and one of her clients asked her to be his witness).

They invite anyone in the audience to come on stage and speak to the group if interested.

The week before the execution was scheduled I went up and announced that I was going to be an accessory to murder the next week, as all of the people in the audience would be. The unanimity of the favorable response really affected both of us.

[csziggy]

19. Most Unitarian Universalist churches are pretty liberal

My husband was raised in one in Panama City, Florida. I'm not sure what churches his parents were raised in when they were growing up in Minneapolis but they joined UU when they moved to Florida. His mother is very liberal, always has been, and the UU church was a great fit for her. (I can't speak for his father, never met him as he died before I met my husband.)

While neither my husband or I follow any religion or church if I wanted a faith based group to associate with, UU would be my choice.

http://www.uua.org/

[CBGLuthier]

5. You might try to find a reconciling methodist church

I am not religious but a friend of mine is involved in this movement which involves being LBGT friendly. If that doesn't increase the chances of it having a more liberal bent then nothing will.

[demmiblue]

9. I think that she may be involved with Unitarian Universalism (Welcoming Congregations).

http://www.uua.org/lgbtq/welcoming/program

[Fred Sanders]

6. The number of Christian sects and cults and denominations and pastors and priests etc. is very

confusing.

How many of them are actually as batshit crazy as Baptists?

The easy one stop litmus test to seperate the batshit crazy from the everyday crazy is evolution.

[Waiting For Everyman]

10. Pentecostal churches are the most right wing.

Last edited Mon Sep 14, 2015, 09:49 AM - Edit history (3)

Because those are the churches where the right wing political framework was originally set up as a base of operations (also the pentecostal doctrine provides a perfect "Trojan horse" vehicle for propagandizing people). It fanned out from there, with people from the pentecostal churches deliberately infiltrating the non-pentecostal churches of all denominations including Catholic (only they use the term "charismatic", same thing).

Pentecostals call non-pentecostal churches "dead", so look for a nice dead church, with no "Holy Spirit" activity: no speaking in tongues, etc. The very traditional churches like the Brethren for instance or Church of the Nazarene are usually good bets. Forget the big churches, they're always Pentecostal or influenced by them. Some of the traditional Lutheran ones are often good too, it just depends on where you are. Call up the pastor and ask if it's a "spirit filled" congregation. If they say yes, it's probably very right wing. The right wing/pentecostal churches are also, unsurprisingly, very anti-rational -- they're into mysticism, not reason.

Hope you find a good one.

p.s. If interested in the background of all this since @1980 when its current form got underway, check out the writing of Frank Schaeffer Jr., for one. His father, Francis Schaeffer was the main "philosopher" of the right-wing church movement, and foundational writer of its ideology. Frank Jr. realized how wrong it was as an adult and defected, and knows quite a bit about it, naturally, to write about. His autobiography is titled Crazy for God: How I Grew Up As One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back (2007). Don't know if he still does, but he used to write essays sometimes for HuffPo too.

[riderinthestorm]

21. Kim Davis, the Rowan Co clerk refusing to issue marriage licenses, is Pentecostal nt

[Waiting For Everyman]

22. That explains a lot.

They're taught not to trust their own thoughts (because Satan gets in your head!). They're really zombies. They only have a hive mind.

[riderinthestorm]

24. And she's a relatively new convert within the past 5yrs, so a zealot as well nt

[jwirr]

29. Excellent post. As to the Lutheran churches you are

right to say it depends on where they are. Traditionally Lutheran churches do not talk politics (with the exception of hunger issues and issues of justice) so you should never have to listen to "I likes" in the church.

But I belonged to a Lutheran church in the north and every year these two women from Texas would visit. I and a friend sat down beside them in a Bible study (which is supposed to be a real BIBLE study) and the women started whispering about Bill Clinton while the rest of us were trying to talk about the Bible verses we were studying. So it really does matter where a church is located.

[Waiting For Everyman]

34. I'll bet the visitors got some interesting looks.

"Frowned upon" in the Lutheran church is literally that. I wonder if the two women ever stopped talking about him, since they were even doing it in a Bible class. He really got under their skin, that's pretty funny!

As a young person I used to think Lutherans were stuffy, but now having seen the other side (life in the pentecostal zone), I appreciate that they aren't swept into every fad that comes along. They just stick to the bare bones and tradition, and I've come to value that more, the older I get.

Another thing I'll say about the Lutherans, they like to eat. They're pretty good cooks too, at least around here.

Thanks, jwirr.

[jwirr]

35. After the study was complete they ladies were not only

frowned on they were called out. They were reminded that the Bible says that we are to speak good of each other .......

And I agree with you The bare bones that fits into a small catechism and tradition. That is what keeps me in this church.

I still cook a lot of our tradition potluck dishes. Foods fit for the gods.

[Waiting For Everyman]

36. Lol!

I'm actually laughing because I know "whereof you speak" -- they do keep people straightened out, don't they? They do it well though, not too much, not too little. At least in the places where I've been.

Another thing I like came to mind, most congregations are very good at singing. They keep the classic hymns too, which I think are so moving (and not bad teaching either, in most of them).

[jwirr]

37. Yes.

[GoneOffShore]

11. Try the UUA if you can find one in your area.

The Unitarians are generally progressives and welcoming.

No doctrinal bullshit - more about 'spiritual' growth.

I'm a lapsed Unitarian and find my Sunday mornings taken up with brunch. Much more fulfilling.

[RKP5637]

18. UUA would be my first choice too. My father was not religious, although we all attended the

local church in town, mostly because I think he felt it looked good for his political career and speeches. That said, he used to take us to the UUA, but it was not local. We only went a few times, but as a very little kid I found it interesting, and there seemed to be no hocus-pocus.

[MindPilot]

12. I reccomend "One Nation Under God" by Kevin Kruse.

It's a history book, but it explains very clearly how Christianity--as it it exists today in America--was created to oppose the New Deal. As you have just discovered it was probably the most successful propaganda campaigns ever.

This atheist suggests that you walk away with no regrets; you will be much happier not spending time and energy looking for what's not there.

[1939]

13. Most of the mainstream Protestant faiths

have been influenced to a greater or lesser degree by Calvinism with its "Protestant work ethic" and its "prosperity is an indications of God's Grace". On the flip side, two of Calvinism's characteristics are universal education and community charity.

[hedda_foil]

15. Here's a little information about liberal churches.

https://transientandpermanent.wordpress.com/2009/08/22/what-are-the-most-liberal-denominations-in-north-america/

<snip >

Unitarian-Universalism arose from the consolidation of two of the most liberal denominations in North America, and continues to push the boundaries of liberalism, to the point that it is arguably no longer a denomination of Christianity but a small liberal religion unto itself. If we thus bracket out the UUs, who is the genuine liberal edge of North American Christianity? Some would argue for the United Church of Christ (the Congregationalists). An argument can be made for the Episcopalians; and we ought to note the historic vote yesterday of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America to allow non-celibate gay ministers. Many other answers are also possible, but then again many are not–it’s unlikely anyone would nominate the Southern Baptists or the Missouri Synod Lutherans.

Of course, the answer is somewhat determined by how we choose to define “liberal.” So what do you think: which are the most liberal denominations in North America today? How do you come to that conclusion? Note that while the emphasis here is on Christianity, it may be legitimate to talk about Judaism and other religions as well.

[lostnfound]

17. but when liberals abandon the churches, churches became (tax-exempt) breeders of extreme right

How many liberals have walked away for the exact same reasons as you?
Many liberals walk away because they become atheist or agnostic or skeptical of institutions. "Conservatives" probably do that much less often.
Now add on the rightward slant problem that is also encouraging liberals to leave, and the church political range gets even more limited.
And you're right - in much of America, "community" equals "church".

[packman]

20. You should live in the Panhandle of Florida

There is NO hint, no shadow, no whisper of separation of politics and religion. When you drive by a major church (Baptist) and see on their billboard outside, "Do Not Vote for the Devil's Party" and have church bulletins that recommend who to vote for in local elections (because they are Christian Conservatives), it makes your head spin.
Hell, the church's a while back did not want to allow liquor to be sold on Sunday so they made it a major point in electing county commissioners - three of the five were backed by the local churches and they now have a majority on decisions for the entire county.

[jwirr]

30. THIS is where the IRS needs to crack down. They are

preaching politics and that is not a tax-exempt church.

Of course my liberal church also deals in politics but a different type. As an example the church has an organization called "Bread for the World" that lobbies for hunger programs. And many of our ministers marched with Dr. King.

I also went to a church where a sermon was based on the line from a song "When will they ever learn" and dealt with the Vietnam War.

So I suppose the question is "what is politics?" when it comes to the IRS.

[deutsey]

23. I left the UMC back in the late '90s

There was a big right-wing evangelical surge in the area I attended church (and I think in the denomination, generally). As a very theologically liberal Christian (with definite left-of-center politics), I felt more and more embattled there and ended up joining the UU congregation down the road.

I've been a UU since, although I still do consider myself something of a theologically liberal Christian. Ironically, I get occasionally annoyed with the harsh anti-Christian attitudes of some UUs. Now I'm leading a small group on Christianity for the UU fellowship I attend and it's something of a good compromise for me.

The United Church of Christ is often very open-minded from what I understand, but each congregation is empowered to govern itself and there are liberal and conservative congregations.

[Hortensis]

25. Perhaps contact the leadership of denominations you are

interested in to discuss this and for recommendations on specific churches. I've read that many churches have backed away from politics because they feel it has been corrupting their ideology and focus.

Also, I personally would stick with denominations that require at least a bachelor's degree in religious studies. I'm not a person of faith, but I've worked with personnel of many churches in the past and visited a number of churches as a guest, and I have seen many self-chosen "spiritual leaders" who couldn't lead themselves through an open door. I've also truly admired and enjoyed visiting some very fine ministries. At very least, a degree requirement might winnow out those unable to understand the tenets of their own religion, or more than the most basic moral issues. There are LOTS of those "ministering" earnestly away out there to rooms full of their earnest victims.

And don't forget, many other people have left congregations taken over by authoritarian hostility and aggression. Many will have found better places to worship. Go find them.

[JustAnotherGen]

26. If you can handle a bunch of busy bodies inviting you to potluck suppers

All the time . . .

Come join us UU's!

[Arugula Latte]

28. Part of it is people who "buy" religious dogma are more easily swayed by propaganda.

Let's just say their reasoning skills are not the best. If you believe Noah took two of every animal on the planet into a big boat, you will believe anything. Fox News' outrage du jours sound more than plausible in comparison.

[Binkie The Clown]

31. Here's the church your looking for.

http://unitedchurchofbacon.org/

[font size=10]Praise Bacon[/font]

Are you tired of religious people being seen as morally superior to atheists? Of religions getting special privileges in the law, because they’re perceived as better than secular non-profit organizations?

As a protest, atheist friends of magician Penn Jillette of Penn & Teller had a fantastic idea in 2010. Let’s start a real, legal church with a funny name, and then demand the same rights as mainstream religions:

We oppose supernatural claims. We are skeptics and atheists. In our religion, we doubt religion.
We fight discrimination. Atheists are not inferior and should not be hated and marginalized.
We raise money for charity and are striving to be the most generous church in the world.
We perform legal weddings, always for free. How joyful!
We expose religious privileges as silly by claiming the same rights for Bacon.
Praise Bacon If you prefer to praise Vegetarian Bacon or Turkey Bacon that is fine!

We now have over 12,000 members from around the world and have performed hundreds of weddings. Join us! Raise your voice in protest, and to Praise Bacon!

[KG]

32. bacon is blaspheme. Ceiling Cat is the way and the light..

[awoke_in_2003]

40. Bacon tastes better than Ceiling Cat

Am I going to hell now?

[Warren DeMontague]

39. hate it when that happens.