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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFrontal Lobotomy: Zombies Created by One of Medicine’s Greatest Mistakes
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/frontal-lobotomy-zombies-created-by-one-of-medicines-greatest-mistakes/#more-38810"Its not clear who first quipped Id rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy, but its not just a joke. Almost anything would be preferable to a frontal lobotomy. It was a barbarous procedure with catastrophic consequences, and yet it was once widely accepted and even earned a Portuguese doctor a Nobel Prize. In the annals of medical history, it stands out as one of medicines biggest mistakes and an example of how disastrously things can go wrong when a treatment is put into widespread use before it has been adequately tested.
A new book by Janet Sternburg, White Matter: A Memoir of Family and Medicine, puts a human face on the suffering of mentally ill patients and their families, and helps us understand why they agreed to lobotomies. It is the affecting story of how her relatives made the difficult but misinformed decision to lobotomize two of her mothers five siblings, one for schizophrenia and the other for depression, and the consequences of that decision.
She says even as a child I had a slight awareness, compounded from fear and pity, that something wrong had been done, that it couldnt be right for people to be this way, expressionless and indifferent to anything around them. As an adult, she questioned how good, kind people like her aunts could have done this to their siblings, and how they could have authorized a lobotomy on a second family member after they had seen its effects on the first. She did extensive research, interviewed family members, and tried to understand what had happened. She was shocked when her one surviving aunt denied that Sternburgs uncle was ever mentally ill, claiming the other sisters had lied about him when they had told the author he had tried to kill people, and that he would have grown out of it if they hadnt insisted on the surgery. The family was dysfunctional; other members had mental health problems, and there was animosity between the sisters. What had really happened? The truth proved elusive.
As best the author could piece the story together, her uncle Bennie developed schizophrenia as a teenager and became a danger to his family, attacking his sisters with knives and anything else that might serve as a weapon. He was properly diagnosed, but every time he was locked up in an asylum, his mother literally howled in protest at the conditions, rescued him, and took him home until the next time he tried to kill someone and had to be locked up again. His sisters lived in fear.
..."
A great bit on a book that looks like a definite must read.
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)before it has been adequately tested"
(cough) GMOs (cough)
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Apparently, you are saying GMOs have not been adequately tested.
Well, if that's true, then we've got much bigger problems, because plants from other seed development technologies have barely been tested at all, and we don't even know what genes were changed in the process using those technologies.
In other words, ycherry picking a quote, and then attempting to attach it to a preconceived notion tends to get you nowhere.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)If this was a new technique, supported by peer review, what you'd be posting...
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Presumptions are easy to make, but they seldom hold up in the light of day.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)until it wasn't. Which is a reminder of the evolving, mutable, nature of science.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)..., as if they are the same, shows that you don't understand the nature of science.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)With that rationale, I wonder if you understand the nature of anything.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)I live in the real world. You choose to live in a world of preconceptions, where one liners hold meaning that just doesn't exist in reality.
How many preconceptions are you going to offer up?
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)as yours follow mine.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)And they do remind me of one of the classic anti-GMO claims. Of course, when one looks at the full picture, it's the anti-GMO movement that, well...
Anti-GMO activists are the ones practicing tobacco science.
http://fafdl.org/blog/2015/05/19/anti-gmo-activists-are-the-ones-practicing-tobacco-science/
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)with those of the 21st century, are you?
Because that would be really, really dumb if you were.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)and the smug, lazy, certainty of the established. Listen, can you hear them? HuckleB3015 and NuclearDem3015, lecturing how dumb it would be to compare the scientific capabilities of the 22nd century with those of the (primitive) 21st century...
Thanks for the deep thought, Jack Handey.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Frontal lobotomies would not be accepted as good practice in the 21st century because not only have we developed more effective methods of treating mental illness, but we have the technology and tools to precisely understand how removing an entire section of brain would affect the person.
So, this bogus argument about frontal lobotomies--a technique developed before the age of computers, scanning equipment, and a mapped brain--being somehow analogous to the use of recombinant DNA--a technique developed during the age of computers, a mapped human genome, and very precise models--is ludicrous.
It's like justifying concern over heart surgery because bloodletting was a common treatment at one time.
(Oh, and 3015 is in the 31st century, not 22nd)
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)it's not examining and analyzing other people's tests, hypotheses, and experiments.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)but mostly we get "stfu woobat, the current consensus is unassailable".
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)I think we got that a long time ago.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Try it sometime.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)That's how I learned that my previous anti-GMO viewpoint was nonsense, for example.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)that means it's possible you'll learn your current viewpoint is nonsense too.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)And I'm good with it, if you do.
I have a feeling it's going to be a long wait, winky smile, or not.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)That's why so many people have died and have developed all sorts of reactions to them.
.
.
.
Oh, wait. No they haven't. But don't let reality stand in the way of a bad quip.
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)although I do wonder about the ones that generate their own Bt based pesticide. What I wonder about are the questions that are left unasked - about the use of GMOs and the effects on modern agricultural techniques and the general environment. Science in wonderful, I literally owe my life to medical progress several times over. But, Science doesn't always spot the unintended consequences.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Hybrid breeding and other conventional methods produces proteins that aren't found in the parent varietals. Unlike GMO, conventional breeding techniques have produced products that have made people sick, and the reason for that has very little to do with the method used and far more to do with adequate testing. If anything conventional methods are more prone to more risk because they move around many genes rather than just one. As far as Bt goes, most plants already do produce their own pesticides, so it's not as if this is something new.
The problem those who point their finger at GMO have is they invent impossible standards of risk mitigation that don't exist outside of GMO. So the question isn't is GMO completely without risk. What the question should be is GMO riskier than the alternative, and I'm pretty sure the answer to that is no.
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)"Hybrid breeding and other conventional methods produces proteins that aren't found in the parent varietals"
Hybrid breeding can not introduce characteristics that were not present in the parent stock (albeit sometimes the information on the genes is hidden for example, two brown eyed parents having blue eyed offspring). Hybrid breeding does allow the recombination of traits already present in the parent stock. Also, selective breeding, by using seeds only from plants with desirable traits, can produce a plant that consistently shows those traits. (for example - Burpee's white marigold) These methods are very much hit or miss, requiring the planting of thousands of plants to improve the chances of producing plants with the preferred combination of characteristics.
" As far as Bt goes, most plants already do produce their own pesticides, so it's not as if this is something new. "
Plants do produce their own pesticides,and recent discoveries have shown that plants actually communicate with each other to warn of infestations. However, the production of pesticides by the plants often results in a plant that is harmful to humans (Milkweed)
At the same time, doesn't this argument boil down to "It's natural, so it must be OK"?
Farmers using sustainable agricultural methods do use Bt, but only when there is an infestation that is out of control. Otherwise, populations of noxious insects are held in check by beneficial insects, and a certain amount of crop loss is accepted as part of this system. Again, just because Bt is natural doesn't mean it is exempt from the same life cycle seen with man made pesticides. Continuous widespread use of Bt will wipe out all the insects susceptible to Bt, leaving the resistant insects to breed a population that is Bt resistant. Thus, the use of GMO techniques to produce a "natural" pesticide will make that pesticide ineffective.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Hybrid breeding quite often produces offspring which are sterile which is most certainly a trait that doesn't exist in either parent. This is just one example of many which demonstrates the fallacy of your assertion, not that it matters much because I didn't say traits, I said proteins. New proteins can and are introduced by hybrid breeding that are NOT present in the parent plants. If you don't understand this concept, you should ask relevant questions rather than going off on some tangent which not only doesn't contradict what I wrote, but is demonstrably wrong.
How do you think this is relevant to a conversation about engineering pesticide attributes into plants? And no, it doesn't boil down to any appeal to nature. It boils down to engineering pesticide qualities in plants is not that much different than what happens with any alternative, which was kind of the whole point of my previous reply and was clearly stated as such.
All use of pesticides can and often does lead to resistance regardless of how "sustainable" you think alternative methods are. Farmers who use GMO also use resistance management techniques, and in fact they are required to do so by the EPA just like any conventional farmer. The difference is with so-called "sustainable" alternatives, once pesticide resistance does happen, it is much more difficult to mitigate or reverse. In the case of GMO, they can reengineer the proteins involved which has already happened with some Bt crops to great effect. So rather than pointing out a weakness in GMO, you've actually pointed out one of its strengths compared to the alternative.
Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)She had developed a situational depression following the death of her mother, whom she had been a caregiver for. She ended up getting away with "just" electroshock, when my grandfather put his foot down with the "doctor" and refused to allow the lobotomy. Only good thing he ever did as her husband.
Still too much barbarity taking place under the aegis of psychiatry.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)Joe and Rose Kennedy did this to one of their daughters and then sent her off to an institution, in Wisconsin I think. (Out of sight, out of mind.)
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)I was born in the town in Wisconsin where she lived. It was a union town (and, yeah, was is the reality), but I don't think the Kennedys got much support there, after that, no matter how much money Joe gave to St. Coletta's.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)And her mother did after Joe died. He never visited. The family did bring her to some gatherings after Joe died, as well. It's reported that Jean, Eunice, Patricia, and Ted were with her when she passed in 2005.
Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)after Joe had a stroke 20 years later. She was never visited by a single family member during that entire 20 year period, including Joe, the one who did it to her.
I guess in he mindset of the era, it was better than her embarrassing her family by getting pregnant, or some such scandal.
An incredibly sad story. I've got one of the new books on pre-order, to be delivered to my Kindle on October 6.
Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)from birth, as in, what were thought to be good obstetrical practices. The nurse apparently spent two hours shoving her head back up the birth canal to prevent her from being born before the OB could get their to collect his delivery fee. The most likely reason for the developmental disabilities that she had prior to the lobotomy.
Nurses tried to do something similar to my mother in 1964, when she had my brother in a large New Jersey hospital, and he was threatening to arrive before the doctor could get there, so this notion was in vogue for quite a long time period.
It makes me wonder what current "good ideas" in medicine will one day be looked on with astonishment and horror. Or maybe we've finally got it all "perfect" now.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)What will we think of drugging people if/when therapudic solutions to mental health issues replace drugs?
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)Last edited Wed Sep 16, 2015, 06:59 PM - Edit history (2)
Do you have a link to the Kennedy story?
Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)There are a couple of new biographies of Rosemary coming out in the next few weeks. I just pre-ordered Rosemary: The Hidden Kennedy Daughter to be delivered to my Kindle on October 6th. I expect it will go into a good deal of detail on the circumstances of her birth.
The other book about to be released is The Missing Kennedy: Rosemary Kennedy and the Secret Bonds of Four Women
Good thing that her story is finally being told, IMHO.
vankuria
(904 posts)Joe Kennedy had Rosemary lobotomized without the family's knowledge, even his wife's, he wanted her out of the way as he feared she would bring bad publicity to his son's rising political careers. As someone who worked with the developmentally disabled, the descriptions I've read about Rosemary before the procedure, she was very high functioning, could read and write but a bit difficult to control. Well Joe made sure she'd be controlled, after the surgery she was completely disabled, barely able to move her limbs and only able to say a few words.
Poor Rosemary was institutionalized the rest of her life and Joe Kennedy insisted she be kept out of public view. Once he died that changed and her family rallied around her, brought her home for visits, etc.
appalachiablue
(41,123 posts)was high functioning and social as you say and a lovely and lively child and young woman as seen in photos. According to some authors the story is that she became puzzled at the time when her sisters and brothers were dating and courting (who wouldn't) and began to have some attraction to fellows. Joe Sr. and others knew 'what that would lead to' and so her future was brutally altered.
vankuria
(904 posts)Joe was afraid she'd get pregnant, there'd be a huge scandal, the family's political destiny would be ruined, so he found a quick "fix". He was willing to sacrifice his daughter who wasn't perfect for his son's political careers. What a truly shameful legacy! Years later the Kennedy siblings tried to make up for this by starting Special Olympics and supporting causes for the developmentally disabled. Nothing could really make up for what the father did to his poor daughter.
Just an aside, Rosemary is quite beautiful, may-be the nicest looking Kennedy daughter.
LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)appalachiablue
(41,123 posts)of her own relatives who were subjected to this barbaric practice to sell books for money. This is highly offensive and decimates any interest in my view.
Ichigo Kurosaki
(167 posts)TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)"I'd rather have a free bottle in front of me than a prefrontal lobotomy."
TYY
Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)By a man who was lobotomized at the age of twelve, basically for the crime of being in a disfunctional family with a stepmother who hated him, and who made him into the family scapegoat, and having a weak willed father who was unwilling to protect him.
A truly horrific read, and yes, I have some kind of morbid interests.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)He is a neurosurgical pioneer: the first neurosurgeon to give a lobotomy to himself.