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pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)
Response to DemocraticWing (Original post)
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DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)I thought I got that across in my post. Breaking apart the wealthy oligarchy is one of many important goals of the Left.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)In its present form, so do I. But just because you oppose it doesn't mean you're actually...well...hurting it. The social brigading method was created for one purpose - to make certain that small groups of accepted (read: bought) 'enforcers' and their heaps and heaps of followers remain in power by having the ability to (effectively) 'murder' a person in a social sense.
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)They intersect with capitalism, but cannot be fought with the exact same toolbag. Defeating one will not defeat the other, etc.
Trotsky talked a lot about this.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)You got your plug in, you managed to drop in a consensus cracker (and a good one, too!), your phraseology is nice and neutral. Even more telling, you completely ignored the bulk of my last comment. Since I spend enough time on forums to know your style now, I'll bid you farewell. Enjoy your assignment.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I like the way Tumblr puts it:
https://www.tumblr.com/policy/en/privacy
"Yahoo owns us and we share."
Some corporate giant uses you as its product, and it's a prominent component of some sort of manifesto cum ultimatum for social justice?
Sticks out like a sore thumb.
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)It's literally a social media website. Like Twitter or Facebook. People use it for their own means, but some people use it more than others. Why it's the centerpiece of attacks on "SJWs" is apparently due to the population who uses it. I see it as something that exists, presumably for the use of others, but feel my post should respond to the rhetorical boogeyman it plays the role of for many people.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)I'm very serious about this. Most of the issues you claim to care about are simply too complex and nuanced to be discussed in Tweets and memes. Reductive exploitation of those issues is not at all the same as activism advancing those issues.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)People who claim their free speech is being shut down when asked to operate with some sensitivity are the ones who are fascist.
No one is stopping them from speaking, they just don't like the fact that they are now judged on what they say by the people they weigh in with opinions about, with no experience that would give them standing to speak from.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)You must have a really interesting dictionary.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Answer carefully.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)...but I don't do commands well. I'll answer however, and whenever, and in whatever manner, I so desire.
Which, in this case, is simply to walk away and leave you to your...ponderings.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)You are still speaking however, so whining about censorship and oppression is based on nonfactual emotion.
Amishman
(5,553 posts)If someone is being told they cannot say/display something or are told they should be punished for saying/displaying something, then yes I would call that an attempt at censorship.
If someone is told they are wrong or even insulted (called an idiot, bigot, etc), then I don't see censorship.
But I think in the heat of them moment, some go for the former response instead of the latter.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)An internet discussion could lead to saying someone shouldn't say this or that, but that is still not censorship, which deals with actually stopping speech.
RKP5637
(67,084 posts)of people are losing out on a better life. Some, IMO, don't even get it! OWS tried, but the SOS is back again IMO!!!
Egnever
(21,506 posts)What scares me is your generations seeming inability to brush off things that don't agree with your world view or worse to be devastated by something said near you that you find offensive.
It's the perception that your generation has been so coddled that every time they hear something they don't like they go into a bout of depression or feel the need to lash out at society in general.
In all of human history there has been "racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, ableism, classism, poverty, and capitalism"
there is no reason to think any of it will disappear any time soon. That doesn't mean I think we or you should accept the the current state of where things are. On the contrary I think you should continue to fight to try to improve the world.
I don't subscribe to the idea of PC , I do subscribe to the idea of you choosing to speak out against viewpoints you disagree with. I might think what you believe is nonsense or I might agree with you completely, either way it should not be a mortal wound that sends you into fits of apoplexy.
I have at the same time a lot of hope for your generation and a lot of dread. Mostly hope.
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)It would be a generalization of young people to say that we're all like that. I'm not sure my generation is any more vulnerable or unable to deal with disagreement than the rest.
artislife
(9,497 posts)You would recognize some of the same sentiment they dumped on us Xers. And the boomers got it from the Silents...so it is cyclical but the older you get, the more you forget and turn into the dismissive ones.
I have great hope for your generation. I think there are a lot of good people who have a live and let live motto about others as long as they do no harm and I believe you are smart enough to change this world for the better.
TM99
(8,352 posts)and psychological research does suggest that your generation does.
If you are genuinely interested, I would be glad to send you book recommendations and links on this topic.
Being a social justice activist is one thing. Being young and idealistic is one thing. Being a 'social justice warrior' is not the same thing.
SJW predominantly occurs online in social media or if in the 'real world' social media group-think is brought to bear. Young people are not as educated as previous generations (hell a recent article on SAT scores shows that downward trend). Excessive social media usage has been shown to increase narcissistic behaviors in general. These include the idea that your world view is the only world view. Your feelings are the only ones that matter. No one should ever use words or phrases that might offend you or cause you distress.
Young people today are sadly being coddled. They are also being allowed to fall into victimhood. Two excellent articles on this topic were recently presented here on DU. I can link them if you did not read them.
Your generation has also been taught a new way of speaking about activism. It is Post New Left speech versus the New Left speech of previous generations. I have shared about this previously in my other posts. Post New Left ideology is far more antagonistic, aggressive, and divisive than the consciousness raising alliance building of New Leftist ideology. That has consequences some of them quite negative.
Now with that analysis and criticism aside, hell yes I support your activism. I have been an activist in one shape or form since my teen years from anti-nuke and AIDS activism in the 1980's to LGBT civil and marriage rights and the environment in the 1990's to anti-war in the 2000's. You can be activist without policing language as strictly as some of your generation do. You can be an activist without burning bridges to your allies as some of your generation do. You can be an activist without having yourself coddled and constantly ego-stroked as some of your generation do. I can also support your activism and criticize some of the tactics used. It was done to my generation so that we would learn. Don't let the narcissism of your generation close yourself off to criticism that might help rather than harm you.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)I'm much older, 67, and I tend to find the word "queer" to be offensive. But that I suppose mostly gives away my age. If you, or anyone like you, embraces that word, then I'll honor it.
And even if I don't like the word, and even if I'm not comfortable with some of the activism, I am only reflecting my age and station in life. I really do have several good friends who are gay, and I've long been astonished that anyone cares very much about anyone else's sexuality. The world does change.
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)I understand the reservations about "queer." I think it's being reclaimed, but I also know why it is difficult to see it as such. More than a few times people have called me queer as an insult.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)for the clarification.
Please know that the world embraces you if they are liberal. Liberals do not discriminate, we are here for each other and even for people who dislike liberal thinking.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)My grandmother who was born in Ireland in about 1885, used the word "queer" to mean odd. As in, "That's queer," is something she would say in response to something she found peculiar.
I have noticed that word has been reclaimed (a truly wonderful way to put it) by the younger generation. What I find interesting about getting older is how I can notice such changes. I find I can accept that things are very different from the way they used to be, and even if I don't particularly like such changes, I can understand that the world has moved on.
All of you young'uns will someday understand.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)"We're here, we're queer....get used to it!" Was perhaps the definitive chant of the ACT UP/Queer Nation activists. Who called themselves Queer Nation.
Houston, 1991 'We're here, we're queer'
DC, 2009, here again, queer again:
The OP is a bit behind the times I was ahead of. The word 'Queer' was reclaimed under duress for and delivered to the OP's generation as a love offering from his elders. May he wear it with pride and with awareness.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)That was my best guess
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)It makes it easy to identify Gamergaters, Redpillers, and bigots and misogynists of all stripes. Helps me maintain my ignore list.
Prism
(5,815 posts)But I reject outright the culture described here:
http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2014/11/everything-problematic/
I don't believe in limiting speech - especially not on college campuses.
I'm not super fond of dogmatism no matter what the source.
I reject cheap tactics like saying, "I don't feel safe," when a speaker with whom one disagrees with appears on campus.
I reject a Kafka-like system of universities prosecuting men outside of the law and without proper due process.
I laugh at the notion that "classism" is meaningfully addressed in the SJW world - half the SJWs I've experienced both online and personally operate from a place of class privilege. Just look at DU to see how social justice has been twisted to attack economic justice. There's an investment in pretending economic injustice isn't important, and not a good or honest one.
Other than that, go nuts. Be "different" and otherkin and talk about white tears, and construct all the little rules that are intended to design the first self-aware Internet Ideology, where the only rules are "We can insult whoever we want. You can't say boo to us."
It's an immature ideology, with no rhyme or reason, filled to the brim with hypocrisy, an utter lack of self-awareness, and no real knowledge or studied discourse.
I'm fine with young people who are into it. We all go through that phase. I was a crazy militant left-wing queer atheist in my late teens and early twenties.
It's the middle aged people who subscribe who scare me. They should know better.
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)And in fact I think most people who tagged with the label aren't either. I have a lot of very simple, albeit left-wing, beliefs. I believe that nobody should live in poverty while the rich live in opulence. I believe everybody has a right to go to school, to be fed, to receive healthcare. I believe that racism, sexism, transphobia, and homophobia are built into the very institutions which our government and society is built on, and we must eliminate those injustices where they exist.
I'm not talking about the handful of people who want to blather on about otherkin. Bash them all you want (although, seems like a powerless non-entity to focus much energy on) but I don't like everybody who cares about social justice issues being lumped in with the same group as a means of attack.
Prism
(5,815 posts)But I don't share much in common with SJW tactics.
Look at it this way. If we were having this conversation on the Right, my reply would be, "I'm conservative, but I'm not one of those Tea Party asshats."
Same principle. I'm a social and economic justice liberal, but I am not an SJW bully.
That ideology right now has a big, big problem with bullying. And the trick with bullying is that people who feel righteous will always reject being called bullies - they lack the self-awareness to understand their own actions and motivations. They believe they are on the side of angels, and so there is no excess too great. That's a theme in history. The righteous often fail to recognize when they cross lines and become something ugly. The impulse isn't limited to Left or Right, religious or atheist, black or white, gay or straight. It devolves into dualism, "There are two ways of thinking: our way and the wrong way. And the wrong way must be eliminated."
No, no thank you. As a gay man, I've spent my life too often on the other side of that equation. I'll not inflict that on others now that I'm in a place with a bit more power and privilege than we had years ago.
You say..."I laugh at the notion that "classism" is meaningfully addressed in the SJW world - half the SJWs I've experienced both online and personally operate from a place of class privilege. Just look at DU to see how social justice has been twisted to attack economic justice. There's an investment in pretending economic injustice isn't important, and not a good or honest one."
This is spot on and a huge problem in my opinion. Identity politics without class analysis has many running around in circles without any true solutions to address the FULL inequality that is the result of capitalist social relations.
Skittles
(153,107 posts)but may I ask, is there a resurgence of the word "queer"? It seems to be making a comeback. (Yes, I am up there in age).
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)It's something of a catch-all term for all of the LGBTQ community, but queer also works for people who are uncomfortable specifically identifying as singularly gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc. There's also genderqueer, which is a bit different, but a similar idea for gender.
My understanding is that some sections of the community started using queer in the 80s, but it's caught on to some extent with my generation. I think it's that we've been exposed to things like queer theory and "Queer as Folk" for long enough that the word's reclaimed meaning is the first thing that comes to mind before the slur for a lot of people.
Skittles
(153,107 posts)
for example, I have always detested people who claim black usage of the N word is no different than white usage
probably the same applies to the word "queer"
now if we could just reclaim the "L" word: LIBERAL
my best to you
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)and Queer Nation took the name Queer. This is history you should know. It is easy to look up ACT UP archives and history and teach yourself.
The phrase 'Queer As Folk' is used for the TV show which came from the UK. The phrase is a regional colloquialism 'There's nowt as queer as folk' which means 'there's nothing as strange as people'. The title has a wry double meaning which suggests that queer folk are no less strange that other folk, for there's nowt so queer as folk....
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)I think that has a major role as well, definitely. Activists in the 80s and early 90s paved the way for so, so much, sadly out of necessity when under threat. For me personally, the Queer Nation manifesto really helped me come to terms with what it mean to be queer. This was several years ago, but I still go back and read it again.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Last edited Wed Sep 16, 2015, 05:40 AM - Edit history (1)
which is far from admirable. It achieves nothing. "Calling out" people? That is not a contribution in life. That's armchair-quarterbackism raised to pretentious heights.
The politics of victimization agenda as pushed today is a bogus scam ploy to psychologically control others through threats of group bullying, and it's over as far as credibility from me is concerned. My perception is that more and more people are arriving at the same conclusion.
Any ills that exist can be taken on without any need to invent a doctrine that creates a double standard society, supposedly to oppose a double standard. Nonsense is still nonsense, no matter how good a cause it claims to serve. Irrationality is never a good thing.
I don't like mobs, even when they claim to be friendly, even when they claim to be good. That isn't how it goes in my experience. I value an individual who can think independently, without being directed by fad propaganda. Lots of those individual thinkers put together make a legitimate movement as opposed to a mob. There is a difference. A big difference.
Trying to dominate others is never admirable. The way to go is to voluntarily win people over with better ideas. Trying to force people to your side is cheating. Cheating is immoral and doesn't lead to any moral outcomes.
And President Obama agrees, isn't that interesting:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027170083
Oneironaut
(5,479 posts)Most of the participants don't even care about the issue they're participating in - they're operating under the false assumption that what they're doing is "activism." Organizing trolling attacks against people for sharing an opinion is the exact opposite.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from any consequences of speech. Say what you want, and be prepared for pushback if you're a jerk. People complain about "internet mobs, but really they're just the 21st century version of sit-ins.
I have never understood why people are bothered by trigger warnings. It doesn't stop people from saying anything. It allows people to say what they want to say, while giving those people who might be triggered by it a heads up so they're prepared. They can avoid it if possible and they want to, but if they can't avoid it, they can at least brace themselves.
I don't believe college students should be able to avoid reading books they are bothered by in classes. On your own time, you can read what you want, but when you're assigned something, you read it. If you think the book is horrible and wrong, go blog about it or something. Add to the conversation, but you still have to read the books you're assigned, IMO.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Will you settle for annoying and pedantic? Even on the points where we agree?
And as for the socialism shtick: All that will do is turn the executives at Goldman Sachs from capitalists to commissars. The greedy power-mongers will always crave money and power. You cannot change that because you cannot change them. All you can do is centralize power under government authority so that they cannot be challenged in the marketplace or the ballot box.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)of LGBT (especially transgender) humanity and equality thrown in.
That's a compliment.
Your grandparents might have written something similar when they were your age.
Can't help it though. I absolutely detest the word queer, and am always sad to see it resurrected. It was an extremely popular and common slur among mean, hateful bullies when I was growing up, and to me, and I suspect to other LGBT of my generation, it is one of the most hurtful and offensive words in the English language.
melman
(7,681 posts)Get over yourself.
kpete
(71,957 posts)i LOVED your post
especially what you say about POLITICAL CORRECTNESS
We SHOULD be called out when we use words that hurt or mislead
The Bogeyman has been exposed
peace,
kp
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)and pretend they don't matter in how it's all perceived and that they are a minority who doesn't represent you or re movement when in fact they, even if a minority, have some of the biggest impact.
Yes, students on campus are using the trigger warning thing to try and censure speech on campus and even in the classroom. You can't segregate than from the whole issue on the debate on trigger warnings. It doesn't matter if that's not your intent, that's where the movement is going and has gone- so that's what it is.
Hell, some schools have been telling students to dial 911 if they hear speech that makes them uncomfortable. Not for a crime, but just for "bias speech" that they don't like. That's insanity, and it's SJW speech police taking it too far. Sure, that's probably not your intent, but when that's a real effect of the movement you can't ignore it.
You can't just write off the very real impact when the SJW takes things to an absurd level and gets attention- because if it's your intent or not that is the real-world impact and guess what- outcomes matter more than intent. Your movement gets judged on the impact they have, including when the absurd players have an impact.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)you do not scare me.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)...and acted like Klingons.
"RESPECT MY QUEERDOM, OR I WILL CARVE YOU WITH MY BAT'LETH AND WEAR YOUR SKIN AS A COAT!"
"TODAY IS A GOOD DAY TO BE TRIGGERED"
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)See? Free speech is upheld!
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)upaloopa
(11,417 posts)I welcome social activists. One thing we had back then was that popular music supported our ideals. It tied us together.
Blue_Adept
(6,393 posts)And having pretty much all of mainstream music "locked up" on the corporate side and so easily shut down if you went too far (ala dasiy chicks), it was disheartening. Even as millions and millions hit the streets, there was no unifying music to bring people further together against the war.
Social media is what's tying things together this time, along with some very sharp humor that can be shared very quickly and galvanize a situation.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)
ryan_cats
(2,061 posts)Blue_Adept
(6,393 posts)Though I'm in my early 40's, I do find it amusing. I work with kids on a regular basis, have kids of my own, and have been tech savvy since running BBS' at 300bps back in the early 80's. So I've always been on the bleeding edge of tech and services like the social media side.
DU is very old school in many ways. It has not grown with the times and the audience has not either - which is good in some ways because experience is needed and wisdom of elders is important (to have and to be challenged).
But DU is hugely insular and many members simply unaware of what else is out there and how things are changing at a pace that never happened when they were younger.
Tumblr, even after being bought by Yahoo, is still one of the best places to really engage. Social media engagement in general leads to a lot of real world engagement, contrary to the beliefs of the Elders.
So, you don't scare me. Because you're pretty much like my own daughters (one gay, one straight) with a wide range of things to say and to push back against in a way that me and my generation never could for a whole host of reasons.
Go forth and change the world. There are a lot of us quietly supporting and nurturing you - and have for years in small and subtle ways.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)and your cohorts who have given yourselves the title, Thought Police.
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)I don't want to police anybody's thoughts. If people want to spew racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. in public, then I hope they do so we can all see who the assholes are.
Calling them assholes, of course, does not threaten their free speech. Yet many people think it does for some reason. I quite seriously do not understand this line of thinking.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)everyone's thoughts. At least to the extent of expelling ANYONE who challenges dominant liberal orthodoxy.
I consider myself as liberal as Bernie, but he understands (like FDR did, interestingly) that plenty of people are going to absolutely HATE him. They will hate him and call him out publicly.
His response: "I welcome their hatred." Translation: 'It's a free country; anyone can say or think anything they want (with literally a handful of exceptions, as regards speech). Go ahead and say it. You'll still lose, whether you come around or not.'
Anyway, I admire your energy and dedication, and wish you well. I was probably a lot like you when I was young. Cheers. 
Throd
(7,208 posts)However some are boring or annoying. It's OK. Many people are when they are young. Fight for your ideals, but remember that social media is most often better suited for the mob, rather than nuance.