How do we convince fewer people to teach at the college/university level?

[Recursion]

Clearly too many people want to do this right now, to the extent that those who get to are often on SNAP. How do we get fewer people to want to be professors?

[rug]

1. The beter question is how do we get universities to pay teachers what they're worth.

[abelenkpe]

2. +1000 nt

[redstatebluegirl]

4. No kidding!

The problem at our University is the constant hiring of Vice Presidents, Associate Provosts etc. One College on our campus has less than 600 students, a Dean, two Associate Deans, a Development person a Marketing person and three clerical staff. Pretty soon there will be more staff than students.

It isn't faculty that are the problem. Faculty are teaching more and more courses, and larger ones so they don't have to replace retiring faculty members. Pressure on Science and Engineering faculty to bring in federal grants at a time when the NIH and NSF have been cut to bits by the Republicans in Congress, is causing people to look at industry as an option. Of course the administration want the grants so they can take 40 percent to pay all the administration they are hiring, not to give raises to the faculty.

Higher ed needs and enema and it needs to start at the top, faculty should not be taking the brunt of the hatred of higher ed.

[crazylikafox]

15. Thank you. Well said.

[hifiguy]

20. The corporatization of the university

is what is to blame here. Not the faculty.

As you point out, duplicative and unnecessary administrators are multiplying like rabbits and have been for twenty-plus years.

[Recursion]

6. That's very simple: reduce the number of people willing to do it

It's not difficult.

[LanternWaste]

10. I imagine it depends on one's priorities-- an educated populace, or fewer teachers on SNAP

I imagine it depends on one's priorities-- an educated populace, or fewer teachers on SNAP teaching fewer people. Though it has been illustrated in western European countries that both may be addressed.

[Recursion]

50. Western Europe strictly limits who can go to college

In Germany I think it's the top 9% of students.

So, yeah, they found a way to limit it, and that's the pool professors cone from.

[cheapdate]

53. Both statements can't be true.

Either : "In Germany...it's the top 9% of students",

Or : "Today, some two million young people study in Germany. In 2009 the ratio of school leavers entering higher education was 43.3 percent." (http://www.tatsachen-ueber-deutschland.de - education and research, the diversity of the tertiary educational system.)

I think at least one of those is wrong.

[Recursion]

55. That counts their trade school system

Which is huge

[cheapdate]

56. It says under 'Technical universities and universities of the applied sciences"

that, "...Almost a third of all students in Germany attend a FH, or a so-called vocational academy as it is known in some German states – these collaborate closely with corporations."

So, a third of 43% still leaves almost 30% in traditional universities?

[Recursion]

58. Apparently it's changed since I lived there

http://www.german-way.com/history-and-culture/education/

It went from 10% to 30%, and is now suffering from some of the same problems US universities have. Austria has crept up from 10% to 20% now too.

[cheapdate]

59. A good friend of mine lived there in the 1990s.

One of the things he remarked on was the education and intelligence of the people he met. He said he could walk into a pub or sit down at a cafe and have an educated conversation with just about anyone he met -- be they bus drivers or machine designers.

[Recursion]

60. 65% of Americans go to college; about 30% graduate

30% of Germans start college, and about 25% graduate. But their high schools are much better, so you do end up having a very educated population there.

[Nevernose]

77. That's not true anymore in Germany

College is free, for everyone, even foreigners. Not as many people choose to go to college in Germany, though, because one can make a good living working as a store clerk or factory worker. There isn't some official government cut off at nine percent.

[yeoman6987]

52. Don't get a job as an adjunct

When you begin research, research, research...get published and go from associate to full professor. Of course tenure is needed. I am at a university and on the tenure committee. Amazed at professors who do the bare minimum and then wonder why they are passed over and have to leave at their 7th year. Get involved in the university too. Guarantee you won't be on SNAP! Our lowest professors make 99K. Our highest make around 175K. We phased out a adjuncts. Our Dean hates them. It has been a blessing.

[a la izquierda]

67. You mustn't be in liberal arts

We have not ONE faculty member in our department- at a major research university- making remotely close to $175K. And I started about $40K south of what your "lowest" professors make. Departments are not equal, as I'm sure you know.

Don't get a job as an adjunct? Right. I'm certain it's that easy. This dismissive attitude towards adjuncts by senior faculty is quite disgusting. I'm on the tenure track, my book will be out next year (in my 4th year).

[yeoman6987]

73. Sounds like you are on your way. I really wish more were like you

Many professors think they are entitled to tenure....nope! Not a chance. I am very not part of a liberal arts university. The closet major that is fluffy is political science. Most are useful majors in engineering and math. Our graduates don't end up at McDonald's or on SNAP.

[Adrahil]

80. Fluffy?

Liberal arts are the cornerstone of a university education... And that comes from an engineer. A university without steing liberal arts is a glorified trade school.

[yeoman6987]

81. Liberal arts are a choice that students make

But they cannot complain after the fact that they are not making enough money and need assistance. Everyone has a choice in what to major in. My school is hardly a trade school, but even trades schools turn out well equipped students who become plumbers, electricians, ect. Majoring in english lit although nice results in what job for the vast majority at graduation? We're just talking reality which is tough I know.

[Adrahil]

83. Bah... you miss the point.

Like I said... I'm an engineer, and I appreciate practical, professional degrees.

But the point of getting an English Lit degree isn't just to learn about English Lit. It's about learning to be a critical thinker. Universities are not just about learning a job-specific skill, like being an engineer, but about learning how to THINK. Specifically, how to think critically. And yeah, English Lit, properly taught, is EXCELLENT for that.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to struggle in order to get engineers working for me to right something coherent enough to even be worth sending to the tech writers. In my experience, many engineers are so disdainful of the liberal arts, that they really do have trouble expressing themselves unambiguously, or understanding basic things like rhetorical logical fallacies. Many of them could stand a few more lit and philosophy classes.

English Lit forms a great foundation for a professional degree (like law school, or an MBA). The same can be said for many undergraduate liberal arts degrees.

The COO of my company was an English major.

I agree that students to actually think about what they want to do upon graduation. No one is going to hire someone with a BA to deconstruct a 19th century novel. But those skills, and theoretical frameworks can be applied in many jobs. So yeah, English majors (and other liberal arts graduates) have to do some career planning which is less straight forward than, say, an engineer. But even some hard science majors need to be thinking about their plans upon graduation. Many of those fields require an advanced degree for realistic employment opportunities.

[yeoman6987]

84. I actually agree with you

And I really don't care what people major in but the point is those majoring in some majors are crying because they are making minimum wage at McDonald's and on assistance. Point is don't boo hoo because your major doesn't afford you the life you thought....you picked it!

[Adrahil]

86. That's completely fair.

I don't have TOO much sympathy for someone who gets a BA with no thought about what they are going to do. Too many people think of college as a jobs training program, but it really isn't that straight forward. It does take some thought and planning.

I do also get frustrated with folks going off to college with no idea about what they want to do for a living. They really do need to be thinking about it and have a plan. It doesn;t mean the plan can;t change, but the "I don't knows" are just looking for trouble, IMO.

[yeoman6987]

87. So true

I admire the students in Austrailia who get to take the year off. I forgot what they call it but most take the year. I think it would help tremendously here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. I think college loans should go through the same due diligence as mortgages.

Loans that are unlikely to be repaid should be denied. A student loan should be serviceable under the normal pay expected in jobs available to that degree program.

[Recursion]

8. So, my most conservative friends love that one

(That's not a dig, btw, there's a great argument for that from the left; I just mean that there's possibly the political momentum to do this one.)

I like it too. If the spigot of Federal money were shut off, colleges would have to start thinking about costs. Does Boston University really need a Lazy River?

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. I think college is hugely exploitive.

It exploits teens naivety and the anxieties of them and their parents.

We might not like it at the time, but when a bank tells you that you can't have a mortgage, they're generally doing you a favor.

[Recursion]

12. The notion that an 18 yo can realistically sign on to 100K of debt is simply absurd

In any other context a judge would laugh it out of the courtroom.

[tblue37]

85. Of debt NOT DISCHARGEABLE in bankruptcy! nt

[Recursion]

88. That's another thing: if it's non-dischargeable, it's not *actually* debt, it's equity (nt)

[hunter]

30. Yeah. Like that will work.

Selling bad debt is a major industry in the U.S.A..

[lumberjack_jeff]

40. With student loan default rates as high as they are

The only reason that interest rates are affordable is because the debt isn't dischargeable in bankruptcy.

There are a finite number of levers to pull. If we want affordable college, at decent interest rates, that are subject to normal bankruptcy, then the bank will want "collateral" in the form of future earnings.

[MichMan]

36. Not the same

You mean with credit checks, income verification, and money down? Good way to make sure that poor folks and POC never get a chance to move up.

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. No, I mean "likely to be repaid".

Students are not likely to have good credit, nor are they likely to have money down and current income.

But the lender is underwriting something of value: the income that the education will generate.

An overpriced, economically valueless degree program isn't an investment, it's a lifestyle purchase.

[MichMan]

41. Except you don't know

In theory I agree with you that the easy availability of government backed loans doesn't hold lenders accountable. It does make sense to only lend to those who are a good risk to pay it back.

However, people drop out , they change majors, they go for 4 years but never get enough credits for a degree. Just because someone declares they are majoring in something doesn't mean squat.

Hell, I majored for 2 years pre Veterinary, changed to Microbiology and then never took one class in it; ended up graduating in Mech. Engineering several years later.

I just think that as soon as lenders turn down loans to students taking the "wrong" majors, they would find themselves losing lawsuits for discrimination. I can already imagine the threads that would be posted in DU that lender 'X" wouldn't loan money to people studying Gender Studies or Ethnic Studies, but would for someone studying Business. They would be accused of favoring Wall Street and being racist and sexist etc.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. The opposite of "discriminate" is indiscriminate.

Last edited Sat Sep 19, 2015, 12:54 AM - Edit history (1)

It's what lenders do.

People identified by their desire for an esoteric major of study aren't a protected class. Denying them a loan isn't discrimination so much as it is a public service.

[backscatter712]

70. And then nobody gets an education.

We already have problems with living in a nation of morons. Let's not make that problem worse, eh?

I think I like the Bernie Sanders plan better: Have the .gov fund all higher education, make it free for students. And ideally fund it enough that professors and instructors can make a decent living.

[lumberjack_jeff]

75. Is 12 years of public education inadequate? Perhaps.

Maybe 18 year olds aren't ready to be grownups yet. I think it's a reasonable conversation to have.

... but entitlement and insecurity being what they are, it simply raises the bar of what constitutes enough college education to get that out-of-the-weather job from 4 years to 6.

Two years of free community college makes a masters degree the new bachelor's.

Here's an interesting article I just stumbled upon.

http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/367/1589/704.abstract?sid=5fc88e56-8a71-4a9b-be8d-ad3fa88c631e

It turns out that researchers tested the IQs of individuals and then tested those same individuals in groups of five.

Our results suggest that individuals express diminished cognitive capacity in small groups, an effect that is exacerbated by perceived lower status within the group and correlated with specific neurobehavioural responses.

People are stupider in groups, so therefore the average group is stupider than the average individual.

Here's an alternate idea: instead of making college free, let's make textbooks free.

[hunter]

5. Observing the ignorance of the general population...

... we need more teachers at all levels.

Taking into account the difficulty of the work, kindergarten and middle school teachers ought to be paid the most, but other teachers, including college teachers ought to be paid well.

I also believe education ought to be free for life. People who are working in jobs damaging to the natural environment and the human spirit, and people who are mere consumer-worker cogs in this international economy, really ought to be doing something else.

[Cal Carpenter]

7. LOL. How do we convince fewer people to wash dishes?

Clearly too many people want to do this right now, to the exten that those who get to are often on SNAP. How do we get fewer people to want to be dishwashers?

[Recursion]

9. Well, if higher wages for dishwashers was a social priority, that would be a valid question

As it is, the adjuncts who make shit wages are happy to let dishwashers make even less.

[eppur_se_muova]

13. Is there one iota of evidence for that last statement ?

People who are suffering do not necessarily find reassurance to know that others are suffering more. Liberals should be pushing for fair wages for all. If dishwashers get bumped up to higher wages, it shouldn't be resented by those in other professions.

[Recursion]

14. Sure. Compare the number of articles about adjuncts on SNAP with the number of articles

about dishwashers on SNAP.

[Bluenorthwest]

16. I frequently see articles about people with full time jobs, often at Walmart or Fast Food, who need

benefits to survive. More than I do about 'adjuncts on SNAP' but not as many as I see about white punks on dope.
If you do a search on the terms 'walmart employees on food stamps' or 'McDonald's employees on food stamps' you will find many pieces. Two fast food links as example:

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/mcdonalds-employee-helpline-shows-workers-food-stamps/story?id=20668024

52 Percent of Fast Food Workers Need Government Assistance to Make Ends Meet
http://www.eater.com/2015/4/13/8403905/52-percent-fast-food-workers-public-assistance-food-stamps-study

[Recursion]

17. Well the question here was "dishwashers"

Who as far as I can tell make very roughly as much as adjuncts.

[LanternWaste]

33. I see the desire to avoid the contextually relevant is still a strength of yours.

I see the desire to avoid the contextually relevant is still a strength of yours.

[Rex]

24. The concern is as fake as the problem, which does not exist.

A reduction in educators is a republican mainstay, funny how the OP supports it too. College professors on SNAP...I have no idea why the OP concern trolls over this but it matches exactly what the GOP worries about to.

Pretty pathetic.

[kiva]

18. Why is that your question?

Seems to me the concern should be how we can get colleges/universities to pay all of their employees a living wage. One step, as someone said above, is to shrink the administration - everyone employed at a college should have to justify their job in terms of how they contribute to the goal of educating students.

[Recursion]

19. A living wage for instructors will mean fewer of them

Zero out the administration budget and the problem remains.

[CreekDog]

38. Obvious is still obvious

I'd say oblivious but that requires the OP to be sincere, just incorrect.

Intentionally incorrect is the former.

[riderinthestorm]

44. They still need the teachers to teach the classes. That need hasn't gone away

the average university or college needs the number of teachers that it has in order to handle the teaching load.

So they can't reduce the number of teachers and still offer a quality product.

What's shameful is that they've gotten away with this horrific treatment of adjuncts for so long.

Unions will help. The universities have to be compelled to pay a living wage because they need the faculty.

[Recursion]

49. The issue is the number of people who are willing to adjunct for less

A college can pay an adjunct so little because for every one there are three people willing to do it for less.

[riderinthestorm]

65. Thats the same situation for fast food workers

and Walmart greeters.

Which hasnt prevented $15/hour movements from rightfully spreading and taking hold across the US.

An educated populace is never a bad thing.

Never.

That education should be free and the minimum wage should be at least $15/hour.

Neither should be impossible for the richest country on earth.

[CreekDog]

21. Add to the pile of obvious

[Gormy Cuss]

22. Increase tuition by one thousand percent annually.

Demand would decline and fewer instructors would be needed. There ya go, a perfect market-based solution.

[Rex]

23. What a really stupid question I would expect a republican to ask.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

25. That's easy - lower the pay, then fewer will want the job.

But that's probably not the answer you're looking for, right?

[Rex]

26. No that is exactly what answer he/she wants.

They want everyone to make little to nothing, just like the OP does living in India. SO they bring in RWing talking points as if we are stupid.

[Recursion]

48. No, that's happened for 20 years now and it hasn't "worked"

Colleges can pay do little because for every adjunct there are two people who would be willing to adjunct for even less.

[kwassa]

27. Simple. Lots of news stories about how poorly colleges pay.

That would do two things: discourage people from the profession, and put pressure on colleges to pay better.

I read an article in the Journal of Higher Education a few years back that was very hard-hitting, going so far as to say that to get a Phd in the humanities was to take a vow of poverty.

[teenagebambam]

31. True that.

I'm teaching the equivalent of a time and 3/4 load, driving 90 minutes each way for the "privilege". I spend approx. 2 hours a night preparing for the next day's classes. That's one of three jobs I have. I MAY clear 20K by the end of the academic year. I tried for a year to get non-academic employment, but no one will hire me for non-academic entry level jobs because my entire resume is teaching at the college level - and they assume I'd be taking a pay cut.

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. Maybe colleges ought to include that article with promotional materials for incoming freshmen. n/t

[JCMach1]

28. How about we change labor laws to even pay adjuncts for actual work put into a course

as opposed to actual hours in the classroom... i.e. it would force administrators to stop thinking like McDonalds...

The problem now isn't so much overabundance of candidates for positions (there has always been a bit of that), but the kind of jobs that are on offer.

Another huge issue is that EVEN most full-time positions are in the same salary range as positions I applied for back in the 1990's.

Universities are starting to collapse right before our eyes... the paradigm is about to shift.

[Rex]

35. Same here, I could not believe how stagnant wages are after decades of progress.

Applying a business model to college, killed it off for more predatory, for-profit private businesses that pretend to be in the higher education field. IMO.

[teenagebambam]

42. The IRS has already determined

that each credit hour of adjunct work is equal to three clock hours. At 28 credit hours, I equal 84 clock hours. That's at one of my three jobs.

[yeoman6987]

54. Why on earth would you chose to be an adjunct?

Get an associate professor job and move up. Are you published? Start getting published. Do some outside research. Tenure is not easy but it can and has been done numerous times. It doesn't make sense that you are an adjunct! None at all.

[JCMach1]

29. A short history lesson on Higher-Ed hiring...

Many of us who went into graduate schools in the late 1980's and early 1990's were lured by tales of baby boomer retirement in the ranks.

That retirement never happened and a lot of the hiring that was done in the period had baby boomer administrators hiring people that though and looked like themselves (i.e. MORE BOOMERS). For various reasons (including economic) many of those professors who were 'supposed' to retire hold and have held on as long as possible.

Now, since the 1980's more and more administrators have been forced to apply business models to higher education (if you have worked in an institution, or have been an administrator you know what I mean)... Now, we have more than 60% of instructors as adjuncts who are paid on an outdated system that pays by the hour for work. Full-time professors are not paid like that, why should adjuncts? Don't give me the research bs excuse... just exclude that and figure what a full-load of teaching would be and how it would be compensated under a full-time employees salary level. Even at the bottom rung, salaries would at least approach a living wage that way.

One institution I applied for here in Florida (which will remain nameless)..., if you did the math including travel expenses, time spent preparing and grading, etc,,, the salary worked out to less than $5 per hour.

So yes, my generation of scholars royally got screwed over in a big way.

[teenagebambam]

32. One of the places I teach

has reacted to ACA by cutting all adjunct hours off at 3/4 time so they don't have to offer them benefits. The result is that the adjuncts who were ALMOST making a living (by teaching double loads and more) now have had to quit or take multiple jobs. The college has had to cut offerings because there aren't enough qualified people to hire. This is coming across the board as colleges realize they are not in compliance with ACA by relying on overworked adjuncts who get no benefits....

[JCMach1]

34. I was lucky enough to work overseas for most of the last 15yrs...

coming back here has been a rude awakening...

[davidpdx]

47. I have a friend who did the same

(though not quite as long as you were overseas) and she's already talking about returning overseas.

[tammywammy]

37. The problem is states are decreasing funding

That's led to increases in tuition, but tuition hasn't increased enough to cover decent pay for professors. In turn universities have increased the number of adjuncts, so they'll still have enough professors to teach the number of classes they need to provide.

The solution is states need to increase funding into advanced education, reversing the trend to slash it. That will lower tuition cost and allow for more professors instead of adjuncts. And if this requires increases in taxes, like it would in Texas, then so be it.

[Snobblevitch]

43. One of the huge problems with higher education

is there are too many college professors earning too much salary teaching too few classes.

[a la izquierda]

69. Not in the humanities or arts/sciences, which generally have the most students at universities.

And you do realize (actually clearly you don't) that our jobs are just a little more than teaching? I work 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I make $54K at a major research institution.

Probably want to investigate a little before you discuss something you obviously know nothing about.

[davidpdx]

46. The problem is not with trying to convince people to not be academics

it is with the entire outdated model of the university system that still relies on brick and mortar schools as its backbone and funding that has been drastically cut over the past two decades. If anything we need to be sending more people to college if they want, not necessarily for graduate degrees, but for specialized degrees in areas where there are needs. Many of those could be done with an associate's or bachelor's degree. The three major problems are cost, time, and access.

That is exactly why online schools are thriving right now. They have lower overhead, allow students to take classes when they want, and can be accessed through the internet.

Disclaimer: Yes, I am an academic. I teach outside the United States and have a doctorate.

[PatrickforO]

51. There aren't too many professors. There are too many adjuncts, because

postsecondary institutions have changed their business model. They no longer have tenured professors, only people they give maybe 2 classes to teach. This is part of the right wing plan to restore 'academic freedom,' because the right has been bitching for years about how the lefist/Marxists have become entrenched in positions of power in college.

Their solution? To make it so adjuncts are very frightened of exercising any academic freedom or else they won't get that second or third section and they will have to go on food stamps.

[CreekDog]

57. ZERO recommends

you probably still can't find a single reason why people think you're wrong.

[cheapdate]

61. "Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too" - Judge Smails

[Recursion]

62. They get paid much more than adjuncts

Working construction was probably the highest paying job I ever had (though I did have a forklift license, in fairness).

[cheapdate]

63. It varies a lot....

geographically, by sector, by industry, by trade, union/non-union, etc.

A lot of construction work here in Tennessee doesn't pay all that well. Some does, especially union work. And the practice of large, general contractors hiring people as "temps" is becoming more common.

[Recursion]

64. Oy. Adjunct ditch digging

Even back then I should have clarified that the hourly wage was the highest I ever had; the hours weren't reliable, though.

[backscatter712]

68. The old "ditch digger" just used his muscles and a shovel.

Now days, they operate a backhoe, and that requires training and skill, and earns a bigger paycheck.

[YoungDemCA]

71. The better question is how do we reduce inequality within the profession

The pay distribution of professors mirrors that of many other professions these days: a relatively small number of higher-paid professors, and a larger - and growing - number of lower-salary, non-tenured professors (or assistant/adjunct professors or "lecturers&quot whose jobs have few benefits.

That's the way of the world these days. Quite unfortunately, IMHO. This is why we need a much stronger public safety net and potentially, a significant restructuring/revamping of the capitalist economy.

[greatlaurel]

72. Divide and conquer. Complain about the professors, but not GOP defunding of public education? Why?

The GOP defunded public universities starting with Reagan. The defunding has spread from California to the rest of the states. The states need to fund their public universities at the rate the universities were funded before Reagan. This would drive down tuition increase attendance and stop the debt crisis for future students.

Let us stop worrying about what people make and start worrying about the GOP dismantling all public infrastructure.

Let us stop promoting the GOP tactic of divide and conquer.

[yeoman6987]

74. Before we do that, let's discuss the university endowment!

Holy cow. Every student could go free just on those. Certainly pay the professors better.

[greatlaurel]

76. Another divide and conquer post. Good GOP talking point. Thanks for pointing it out for us.

Do most public institutions have endowments that would pay for student tuition in perpetuity. I don't think so.

Good right wing talking point though. Keep waving those shiny things to keep people from seeing the real reason for university costs going up. The GOP want to destroy public education for all everyone.

[chervilant]

78. Thank goodness for trash thread

(and my IL).

[Orsino]

79. We're doing it.

The devaluation of all labor took a while to catch on in academia, but it's happening.

[moondust]

82. More should want to be coaches.

Priorities!