Pope Francis Smacks Churches: “If You Don’t Help the Poor and Needy, then Pay Taxes Like a Business”

[damnedifIknow]

With Pope Francis coming to the United States just a little over a week away, he has sent a very clear message to churches that use their tax-exempt status as a way to exploit their property for economic gain. Some churches are refusing to accept refugees into the buildings they own, instead preferring to use it to make money on rentals.

“Some religious orders say, ‘No, now that the convent is empty we are going to make a hotel and we can have guests and support ourselves that way, or make money,'” said Pope Francis. “Well, if that is what you do, then pay taxes! A religious school is tax-exempt because it is religious, but if it is functioning as a hotel, then it should pay taxes just like its neighbor. Otherwise it is not fair business.”

The practice of renting space in religious buildings is very common in Europe. The philosophy behind it, that Pope Francis describes, could very well undermine what many televangelists do in the United States. Rather than practicing their religion, these charlatans run lean businesses and make fat profits. If the church isn’t engaged in the business of the Church, as Pope Francis explained, then it’s time for them to pay their fair share of taxes!

Demonstrating that he follows his own words, the Vatican is taking in two refugee families, who will remain “as long as the Lord wants.”

http://ringoffireradio.com/2015/09/pope-francis-smacks-down-churches-if-you-dont-accept-refugees-then-pay-taxes-like-all-busines/

[LiberalElite]

1. WOW. nt

[Fred Sanders]

2. Sounding more and more like a Godless socialist just before his WH welcome reception on Wedneday.

The man is a paradox.

The GOP and Fox versus the Pope....going to need to order some more popcorn.

[gvstn]

8. I truly believe he is a good man.

But he has to be careful. Someone could slip him a little black pill if he goes too much against the standard rules. The Vatican is a bank afterall.

[coolepairc]

48. I do think he's aware of the possibility

Pope Francis, who was elected in March 2013 said last year: "It's true that anything could happen, but let's face it, at my age I don't have much to lose." He's made other references to the possibility of a short papacy.

[gvstn]

62. Yeah, I remember that.

He just doesn't look that frail to me. Benedict looked more frail (and mean). Francis just looks strong/sturdy and he seems kind. Nothing untoward happening, I'd give Francis ten years as Pope.

[Uncle Joe]

3. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, damnedifIknow.

[BKH70041]

4. Is he asking the Catholic Church in the USA to pay taxes?

Sounds like if the Catholic Churches in America aren't using their property for church related business, he wants them to pay taxes. Couldn't he just order them to either use their property correctly or pony up? I mean, he is the head of the Catholic Church.

I highly doubt the Protestant denominations give a damn what the Pope says, and I wouldn't expect them to.

[damnedifIknow]

5. Do you hear that Joel?

If so, please pass it on to others like yourself.

[BKH70041]

7. I had no idea who that is and had to look it up.

But that illustrates my point. Joel Osteen is a Protestant preacher and could care less what the Pope has to say, as I would expect.

Catholics, on the other hand, are not in the same boat. So maybe the Pope should have his own church lead by example. Let's see if they do, or he's just a bunch of hot air and his own fellow Catholics don't listen to him, either.

[smirkymonkey]

43. It's all these Protestant mega-churches that we need to worry about.

I'm sure they don't care what the Pope has to say, but our tax laws should really change around these types of "churches".

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

50. Some of the right wing Catholics I know are not liking the Popes message

they are not liking it one bit and view him as a communist. Those and other views were instrumental in our decision to leave the Catholic Faith this last year.

[demosincebirth]

70. Why don't you check and see for yourself how many charities the Catholic church runs and supports

throughout the the world and in the U.S. I suggest you start with CRS.

[Babel_17]

32. Maybe it's more like he's the equivalent of an olden day British King ...

Maybe it's more like he's the equivalent of a olden day British King, and with very powerful Lords who owe him limited allegiance.

[msongs]

6. so pope darling when are YOU and YOUR church gonna start paying taxes? hypocrite nt

[struggle4progress]

12. Perhaps you didn't understand the reference "convent" in the quote

[Bluenorthwest]

35. The Archdiocese of NY is the largest non governmental real estate holder in NYC. So....

And this is from Honolulu Archdiocese....Land Asset Management Office
"The Diocesan Real Estate Director serves as:
The Asset Manager for all of the real property owned by the Roman Catholic Church in the State of Hawaii. Interfaces with the designated managing agent and legal counsel to achieve the highest operating value for all investment properties. Includes providing leasing services and lease administration for investment properties."
http://www.catholichawaii.org/diocesan-offices/land-asset-management-office.aspx

So they have a full time employee seeking to get the highest value out of all investment properties. Investment properties are not convents, and they are not intended to feed the poor. They are intended to achieve the highest value possible on invested capital.

Honesty would really help this Pope. He's already a raging anti gay bigot and activist against us, as well as a strident opponent of reproductive rights for women.

Francis does not use Castle Gondolfo, his estate outside of Rome. During WW2 it housed and fed hundreds of refugees at a time, the lands provided food and the buildings provided shelter. Today, Francis gave one family an apartment in the Vatican. That's nice. Gondolfo remains empty, a tourist attraction generating what? Profits.

[struggle4progress]

46. NY allows nonprofit orgs to conduct tax-exempt activities that generate profits, if the profits

are used to support the nonprofit purposes of the orgs

One might expect just about every large nonprofit in NY to take advantage of that

Do you find it offensive whenever any large nonprofit in NY hires a asset manager or do you only find it offensive when the Catholic Church does so?

[Lordquinton]

66. End the religious exemption and let them refile as a non profit

And also prove they are using their budget as claimed, ere is zero accountability on religions.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

57. 2013. Next question.

[MADem]

59. That IS what he is saying to HIS churches. Either help the poor/needy, or pay taxes.

Did you also miss the part about the refugee families in the Vatican?

This admonition is not directed at protestants or muslims--it's aimed at catholic churches.

[LanternWaste]

143. I'd love to know of one merely person who's not a hypocrite. I also love fiction.

I'd love to know of one merely person who's not a hypocrite. I also love fiction.

[Arugula Latte]

9. Oh that is rich ... and I mean rich.

The Vatican:

[Skittles]

10. supreme hypocrisy

unbelievable

[840high]

21. Hey - the Vatican took in

one, 1, uno immigrant family. What a selfless act.

[progressoid]

39. But he is helping the poor.

His Hole...iness is saving them from eternal hell fire and damnation. That ought to be worth a little gold here and there.

[treestar]

82. The Vatican has been there since before the medieval age

It's not like the current Pope is entirely responsible for it.

It's a drop in the bucket compared to what we all could do. It's now also history and architecture, not just religion.

I think this argument is ridiculous and takes away from the fact it is good for a Pope to encourage churches to help care for the poor.

[Arugula Latte]

88. The Vatican is sitting on mountains of gold, real estate & huge amounts of $$.

It should change its name to Grifters R Us -- it's been scamming people and plundering for centuries.

But I do agree with the Pope that churches should be taxed.

[LanternWaste]

144. Precisely how much are they sitting on, and how many mouths will that feed for how many years?

Precisely how much are they sitting on, and how many mouths will that feed for how many years?

Regardless of how convenient it is to focus on one act rather than actions en toto, it's also less valid to do so.

[Arugula Latte]

147. Right. Nobody knows. The Vatican isn't exactly known for its transparency.

The Vatican itself probably has no idea of the vastness of its wealth, as this article points out:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/how-rich-vatican-so-wealthy-it-can-stumble-across-millions-euros-just-tucked-away-1478219

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

11. First mancrush ever!

[roguevalley]

25. no matter what this man does to the most

entrenched monolithic edifice in history it will never be enough and never fast enough. Try turning the Titanic around with a row boat. That is what he's doing. HE also has a conservative element building in the church. I admire and like and respect this man. Sue me.

[Live and Learn]

27. Ditto here. I can't help but like him. nt

[gvstn]

28. He really does to seem to believe in the basics of Catholic teachings.

He may not be able to change the whole Church in his short reign, but he seems to be bringing the Church back to its origins of kindness. (Or at least trying compared to Pope Benedict)

[AngryOldDem]

36. He's just restating what Christ taught. n/t

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

63. He possibly represents a new awakening - just in the nick of time.

[Skittles]

75. newsflash

you can do the right thing without religion - like, not be misogynistic, homophobic, etc., not scam people

[mr blur]

78. Yes, but that's his problem. It makes him repugnant.

Misogynistic, anti-gay, anti-equality, anti-contraception, anti-abortion. He's a hypocritical bigot.

[gvstn]

116. Popes that don't follow dogma, suddenly die.

The man himself seems good. He is trying to introduce change.

Christ, look at Obama, one man can't do it alone if all the others are against change and you.

[Rob H.]

121. "Popes that don't follow dogma, suddenly die."

I'm sorry, what?

[gvstn]

123. Radical Popes get poisoned, or did back in the day.

A Pope can't go too much against Church rules and expect to live. A Pope may be technically just one level down from God but go against the Vatican "Powers that Be" and you get offed. Check out history.

[LostOne4Ever]

124. People from all walks of life got poisoned back in the day...

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Today is not anything like it was back then. Especially given the advances in LGBTQ rights and technology.

Besides, if he is a man of God, he should have faith that his creator will protect him and can do what he feels is right.

And that is ignoring the fact that you can claim conspiracy theories to defend anything or anybody...[/font]

[gvstn]

128. Popes are just people.

Even a Pope knows God isn't going to suddenly reach down and do a miracle.

This guy does not hate anyone, as far as I can sense. The Church may be against LGBT people but Francis, himself, isn't. It will take time to make changes but this guy is at least trying compared to the last several Popes. I'm just not going to hate him even if he can't go all the way and change Church policy on gay rights and love them as our fellow man who should be helped whenever in need. I really wish he would get with it on contraception since every one uses it and it is ridiculous to ignore that fact.

[LostOne4Ever]

129. He IS THE CHURCH and can issue infallable edicts

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]And he has not done one single thing to make even the most minute of changes to Catholic policy on this issue. Or on aborition. Or on something as minor as contraception. NOT ONE THING.

And even before becoming pope he was against Same-Sex marriage and called it the work of the Devil.

http://www.catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-on-abortion-and-homosexual-marriage

And NOW, he has double down in the Philippines

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/pope-francis-suggests-gay-marriage-threatens-traditional-families

Endorsed policies against gay marriage and adoption

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/06/pope-slovakia-referendum_n_6630876.html

In fact he called gay adoption discrimination against children:

http://www.businessinsider.com/pope-francis-comments-on-gay-marriage-and-gay-adoption-2013-3

or his comments on gender theory

http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2015/02/20/pope-francis-gender-theory-doesnt-recognize-order-creation

There is not so much as one shred of evidence that the pope has ever supported gay rights in any way shape or form. None. It is wishful thinking at best, and complete denial at worst. Denial that supports an outright and outspoken bigot against the Women and the LGBTQ community on the LAST site that should ever happen.

People might as well be trying to defend Pat Robertson.[/font]

[gvstn]

132. I hate the way you use the word bigot to discribe Pope Francis.

Maybe I am in denial but I just don't sense any animosity from him towards anyone.

I am a fag. This is true. But I just like the guy and think he is trying to make changes as best he can given certain limitations.

Who else would do better?

[LostOne4Ever]

134. Desmond Tutu? Anyone Liberal who is for women's and gay rights?

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]I liked the pope too at first.

But time and time again I saw him giving lip service to social issue, only to read between the lines and see nothing had changed. I read up about his comments against marriage equality in Argentina, and his calling gay adoption discrimination against children.

How can I read that and not see animosity? As a skeptic/ scientific person who wants to base their opinions on actual evidence and logic how can I say he is SECRETLY for gay rights when there is NO evidence to back that up and quote after quote to show the opposite?

Simply because I want to believe? Sorry that has never worked out for me.

When his actions belie his words. He has done nothing to help the left on these areas, and has done plenty to hurt us. While his words, have been proven to be two-faced and intentionally vague time and time again.

He has done nothing to help the left on these areas, and has done plenty to hurt us, and it infuriates me to see these posts praising him. He and his church are actively hurting people![/font]

[gvstn]

137. Obviously

You hate the Catholic church. More power to you. I have no love of the Church. It has messed me up plenty. I'm just not going to hate on Francis. I think if he had the power he would make great changes to the Church. But a Pope isn't really as powerful as people believe. There are people behind the curtains that actually pull the strings.

I'm just going by my gut but I don't think Francis would ever admonish an actual person that needed to have an abortion or use birth control or a gay AIDS sufferer. If you see that in him than we just have to agree to disagree. It might be all PR but the man just seems kind to me. If I am being naive, so be it. I still like the guy considering he isn't really all powerful.

I really don't want to continue arguing. You don't like him and I do. That is fine. Sorry, for dragging this out too long.

[mr blur]

136. How else would you describe him? Hypocrite?

He heads a rich, misogynistic, homophobic, uncaring organisation. He's Blank Frank, the PR Pope. All things to All Men and no use to anyone. Beneath contempt, really.

[AtheistCrusader]

125. This is spectacularly amusing since the popes minions were major plaintiffs in suing to block

Elements of the ACA bill.

The pope has only doubled down on opposing same sex marriage since taking his new position. Once, saying 'who am I to judge' doesn't mean shit and he hasn't done anything else except thank local churches in Slovakia for opposing SSM in his name, making it his lead-off issue on day two of his visit to the Philippines. Calling adoption by same sex couples a form of discrimination against the child.

Quit covering your eyes and pretending he's something he's not. He's a bigot. He's not biding his time, making micro changes. He believes that bigoted shit himself.

[Lordquinton]

126. No, he's pretty much toeing the same line Benedict did

He just has better PR.

[gvstn]

127. You'll see he will make changes.

He is a much kinder man than Benedict. You can't dispute that if you have two eyes and can look and see.

[LostOne4Ever]

130. I can because I used to be Catholic and he hasn't changed ANYTHING in over two years (nt).

[Lordquinton]

131. He hasn't said anything different from Benedict

And I'm not fond of the "Wait and see" when what I'm watching now is just more of the same. Hates gays, hates women, advises people that hitting children is ok if it's "Not on their face, to preserve dignity" says that violent retribution should be expected when insulting religion.

At best we can be relieved when we're not fighting his organization on an issue, because that's not an ally I'd ever want.

[gvstn]

133. Yup, he is a goddamn hater.

[LostOne4Ever]

135. Tell that to all the people who died because the RCC tells them they can't use contraception

https://www.usaid.gov/sites/default/files/documents/1864/ContraceptivesSave-ImproveLives.pdf

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/04/16/africans-among-the-most-morally-opposed-to-contraception/

[Lordquinton]

138. Yes he is a hater

A gross bigot who uses the poor and disadvantaged, like this man, as a prop to hide the trash they feed to us.

How is this any different from the conservatives in this country that trot out wounded soldiers and say how wonderful and brave they are, standing on stage with them and saluting, then let them go quietly back out onto the street to slowly waste away.

Your attempt to deflect from that by using emotional images is rather insulting.

[gvstn]

140. I am saying one man can't change 1500 years of doctrine in a day.

Or a year or 5 years. If you watch this man on video, I see sincerity. He isn't going to rewrite Catholic doctrine during his reign but if he could I believe he would try. It is not just PR. And I wouldn't call him gross!

[Lordquinton]

148. Exactily what doctrine is he trying to change?

[PeaceNikki]

139. The Catholic Church is killing people.

It truly is time to quit the Catholic Church.

There are lots of exciting possibilities on the horizon for combatting HIV and AIDS. HIV vaccines are around the corner. Unfortunately, the vaccine may not help the millions of Africans condemned to this illness by the Catholic Church’s stance against condoms. This summer Roman Catholic bishops in Kenya went even further, organizing a boycott of polio vaccines. Last year, the church urged Catholic Kenyans to boycott the tetanus vaccine, claiming that it was “a covert means of controlling the country’s population.”

The Catholic Church is killing people. Not by pulling a trigger or wielding a weapon, but by imposing Dark Age ideas on a vulnerable population.

This needs to be stated clearly: The Catholic Church is morally responsible for the deaths of millions of Africans. Those that have not died as a result of imposing this theology, the Church would now like to saddle with polio and tetanus.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/freethoughtnow/were-all-africans-stand-against-hivaids-polio-and-the-catholic-church/

[gvstn]

141. I have no love for the Catholic Church.

I'm just saying this is the most human Pope that I have seen in my lifetime. He genuinely seems to care about people. And yes, contraceptives and condoms should be allowed under Church rules. God doesn't want a bunch of sick and hungry children in this world. ( I'm not really a believer but if there is a God he doesn't want that.)

[PeaceNikki]

142. His church, his bishops are *killing people*

[LanternWaste]

146. I call things "better PR" if I have to make up stuff, too.

I call things "better PR" if I have to make up stuff, too. It's diaphanous enough a term to mean little to the rational mind, yet loaded enough to feel valid to the irrational and biased.

[Lordquinton]

149. He literally hired a PR man straight from FOX news

His views are no different from Benidict's, he just has a nicer tone.

Or are you OK with all the bigotry, encouragement of childabuse, pedophile protection, women hating, history denying that he proudly perpetuates?

[smirkymonkey]

44. +1000

[demosincebirth]

71. You will never win...not here on DU.

[LostOne4Ever]

122. You admire a man who actively fought against gay marriage in Argentina?

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Who actively works against LGBTQ people from being allowed to adopt? Whose church, under his reign, called marriage equality in Ireland a defeat for humanity?

Why would anyone have a problem with that on this site? [/font]

[a kennedy]

33. ha ha, love you Elmer S. E. Dump.......

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

61. 60 years, still 16 at heart. Only YOU define yourself.

[NBachers]

13. Holy . . . Shit!

[Yallow]

14. He Said It

It is a big step in the right direction.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2012/11/facebook-memes-and-the-property-tax/&h=692&w=720&tbnid=naVv05MR3xO_dM:&docid=82YuwHAS8ZtdLM&ei=ftL8VeDlFIvmoATbnbEQ&tbm=isch&ved=0CB8QMygCMAJqFQoTCOCcgZeQgsgCFQsziAod204MAg

[StoneCarver]

53. here's whats's worse...

Pastors, Rabbi's, religious leaders, etc.,
receive a portion, (sometimes a large portion) of their salary as a "housing stipend". This is exempt from Federal Taxes. This is crazy. What if you could declare your house payment salary -as tax free. (this is the largest bill most people pay.) I know they work hard and do good work- but this is crazy!
Stonecarver

[YOHABLO]

15. It's a little hypocritical but at least he said it.

[nomorenomore08]

17. My thoughts exactly. *Somebody* had to say it. n/t

[Demeter]

16. It will take a Second Coming to fix this

[Left Coast2020]

18. SANDERS-POPE FRANCIS 2016

Now that is a ticket that would drive the fundies up a wall. Maybe drive them to extinction.

[cer7711]

22. Heh! YES! Add Elizabeth Warren . . .

. . . to the mix and you've got the ultimate Axis-of-Excellence with which to combat right-wing duplicity.

[a kennedy]

34. OMGosh, now that's a winning ticket.... eom

[Bluenorthwest]

37. Pleas stop suggesting an anti gay bigot who opposes contraception as if he was a good person.

Look, the RCC teaches that it is a sin to use condoms, and in Africa they tell people that condoms spread HIV when in fact they prevent the spread of HIV. This month and every month, over 100,000 Africans will die from AIDS.
To me that is starkly immoral. To you, that's just the cost of running the Vatican....

[bvf]

47. This can't be said often enough.

People cheer meaningless platitudes and ignore reality.

[gollygee]

51. [phone]

I so hate these threads.

[LostOne4Ever]

67. For the love of Athena someone Pin Bluenorthwest's reply to the top of this forum

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]This can not be said enough.

Bigots have no place being praised here on DU!!![/font]

[PeaceNikki]

45. What am utterly offensive and disgusting suggestion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11362224/Pope-Francis-he-aint-no-liberal.-Beware-of-his-two-faces.html
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7249020
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9112081/the-fantasy-francis/
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116056/progressives-who-love-pope-francis-are-abandoning-women-and-gay-rights

It's disgusting to "dream" of having him in the executive branch of the US government, even in jest. This isn't a fucking theocracy.

[demosincebirth]

72. Offensive and disgusting suggestion, no. Stupid? Yes.

Do you really need to be told that their post is in the realm of sarcasm.

[PeaceNikki]

73. Did you miss the part where I said, "... even in jest"? I stand by my reply.

[Rob H.]

74. It's all three

and that post doesn't read like sarcasm.

[Skittles]

76. aw don't you know?

we're supposed to give him big brownie points for "evolving"

[cantbeserious]

19. Me Likes The Pope Francis Smack Down - Go Pope Go

eom

[Duppers]

20. Wow squared!

Go Jorge! Pope Francis!

[SoapBox]

23. Yes!

[phleshdef]

24. This liberal progressive agnostic raised evangelical loves him some Pope Frank!

[merrily]

30. Frankie Two Sticks

[PatrickforO]

26. I like this Pope.

Of course, he's a Jesuit. They are a bit more socially conscious.

[merrily]

31. And, according to the right wing, Jesuits are Socialist.

But, don't religious of every Catholic order give all their earthly wealth to the order to be used for the benefit of everyone in the order?


I wonder what the right calls that?

[merrily]

29. Has anyone sent this link to the IRS?

[former9thward]

52. They don't need to. The IRS is smarter than the Pope.

They know current U.S. tax code DOES tax church businesses like any other business. The Pope doesn't know that.

[truebluegreen]

56. Since he was apparently referring to European practice

my guess is he didn't need to know that.

And according to John Oliver, who I think is smarter than either the Pope or the IRS, scamming of tax law by churches is pretty easy.

[former9thward]

58. Now let's see...

The first sentence of the OP: With Pope Francis coming to the United States just a little over a week away, he has sent a very clear message to churches that use their tax-exempt status as a way to exploit their property for economic gain.

Only the mention of the U.S. Nothing about Europe. And almost every poster in this thread has referred to U.S. churches -- not those in Europe.

Its not hard to scam tax law. It is not only the churches that do it.

[truebluegreen]

64. The posters in this thread are responsible for deciding who the Pope was talking to?

Good to know.

From the OP and the article it links to: The practice of renting space in religious buildings is very common in Europe. The philosophy behind it, that Pope Francis describes, could very well undermine what many televangelists do in the United States. So apparently Europe is mentioned, and there is no way to tell from the article just what audience/country the Pope is aiming at.

As for your final point: seemingly the IRS already taxes church businesses and is easy to scam. So what is your point, exactly? Do you just like to argue?

[former9thward]

65. It is you that just wants to argue.

The posters refer to the U.S. and the first sentence of the OP mentions the U.S. It is very obvious what point was being made in the OP. You want to be deliberately obtuse.

[merrily]

77. In practice, the IRS is much more lenient to Catholic churches and their activities than that.

It'll audit the hell out of a church that is less established, though.

[former9thward]

80. The IRS is like most government bodies.

It is political. Its head is appointed by whoever the president is. Catholics have a lot of power. But not just them. Drive though the south and west sides of Chicago and see the many storefront "churches" which are on nearly every block. Those are never audited either.

[Orrex]

87. Then churches are taxed on their property like any other business?

I'd like to see documentation to that effect.

[former9thward]

89. The land is not being used to generate profit.

Of course they are not taxed "like any other business". Is the land the government owns taxed "like any other business"?

[Orrex]

90. That's an obvious attempt at distraction

My company pays taxes for the land it owns, as do other corporations, resulting in huge tax income for local economies.
That property is appreciating with each passing year, and if they sell it then they'll pay taxes on the gain.

Does the church pay tax for the land it owns? If that property appreciates in value and then they sell it, will the church pay taxes on the gains?

Churches also enjoy plenty of tax-free services for which corporations must pay taxes.

If you want to ask about the government, start another thread. The current thread is about the disgusting tax-free windfall enjoyed by churches and about the bizarro mental gymnastics that some are willing to do to make it seem fair.


Why would you falsely pretend that churches are taxed like other corprations, when they clearly and irrefutably are not?

[former9thward]

91. Their businesses ARE taxed like any other business.

Despite your attempts to make it seem otherwise.

[Orrex]

92. I have this fantasy in which you give an honest and straighforward answer

Do churches pay property taxes like any other business?

[former9thward]

95. And I have the same fantasy about you.

I suggest you call up your local city hall and ask them. Property tax codes vary all over the U.S. I am opposed to non-profits paying the same tax rate as commercial property. You are not. We get that.

[Orrex]

97. In short, you now concede that churches are not taxed the same as other corporations

Yet for some reason, by your own assertion, you endorse government subisizing churches with public money.

Why in the world would you support that?

[PeaceNikki]

93. Not businesses like child care which are on school or church grounds

and competes with other child care.

[former9thward]

96. Does it generate a profit for the church?

Yes or no. If it does it is taxed like a business. If they are not paying taxes report them. Maybe you will get a reward.

[PeaceNikki]

98. We don't know because churches are not accountable.

[former9thward]

99. Of course they are.

Call the IRS and tell them they are making a profit from their business and not paying any taxes. They are subject to the same audit as anyone else.

[PeaceNikki]

100. No, they aren't. They do not have to file financial disclose like other non profits.

[Orrex]

101. Wait--are you saying that they're not accountable like other businesses?

But that means that they don't pay taxes like other business! Impossible!

[former9thward]

106. So?

What is stopping you from reporting them? Why complain about it on DU? Pick up the phone. If I knew where you lived I would google their number for you.

[PeaceNikki]

111. I'll tell you where I live: reality. I'm a contributing member of FFRF and ACLU, both of which

have well-educated civil rights attorneys on staff. That's how I contribute.

I reserve the right to "complain about it on DU" or any damn where else I please.

[former9thward]

114. You are allowing a church to cheat.

List of IRS numbers: http://www.irs.gov/uac/Contact-My-Local-Office-in-Wisconsin

[PeaceNikki]

115. Lol

And you said "just like anybody else". That's bullshit.

[PeaceNikki]

102. They are also not subject to audit "like anyone else". That's

Kinda cute that you think that, though.

[former9thward]

104. They are subject to audit.

At least the IRS thinks so.

http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Churches-&-Religious-Organizations/Church-Audit-Process

[Orrex]

105. But do they pay taxes like other businesses?

After all, you have already conceded that they don't.

[former9thward]

108. I have said yes on their businesses countless times in this thread.

If you want to ignore that or try and mislead other posters go ahead. They can read the thread and see what you are doing.

[Orrex]

109. But they don't pay property taxes like other businesses

So they aren't taxed like other businesses, despite your assurance to the contrary.

Other posters can see you trying to have it both ways. You could clear it up if you'd simply admit that churches are not taxed like other businesses, because they aren't.


Why do you insist on denying this fact? To what possible end?

[PeaceNikki]

110. Not "just like anybody else".

The IRS is required to jump through extra hoops before it can open an audit on a church. And churches are not required to file Form 990.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/105952-the-irs-might-investigate-televangelists-after-john-olivers-scathing-segment-elicits-criticism-from-all-over

But, even though these people are bringing in millions of dollars every year, they get to keep it all — tax free — because the IRS does not audit churches due to their constitutional right to exercise freedom of religion, according to Newsweek. The IRS suspended church audits completely from 2009 to 2013 and only conducted three from 2013 to 2014, according to CBS.

[former9thward]

112. You tried to imply they could not be audited.

They can. And you seem to have information a church is making money on a business and not paying any taxes. Yet you refuse to report them.

[PeaceNikki]

113. Oh, ffs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7187903

And you said "just like anybody else". That's total bullshit.

[Orrex]

119. Now that I think about it...

I'm sure that lots of non-profits can keep their tax-free status even when they make anti-LGBT discrimination a central element of their organization.

So I guess that churches ARE taxed just like everyone else!

[Igel]

38. Oh, great.

Now everybody into separation of church and state in the US will point to papal authority for redefining the history and purpose of the US tax code and as authority for how to structure all kinds of things.

It used to be amusing that they wouldn't see the disconnect between their deepest beliefs and what they demand others do. Now we've shaken that pesky neurosis and act like it's how things should be. One rule for me, another for thee, in a one-sided dialog. All rights, no obligations.

[rhett o rick]

40. Bravo. Thanks for posting. nm

[niyad]

41. and how about when they play politics, which they shouldn't be doing with their tax-exempt status?

[BuddhaGirl]

42. Awesome!!

Go Pope Frank!!

[alfredo]

49. They expect. 10% tithe, they should use at lease 10% for charity.

Many do foreign missions and that is not easy to account for. It's a scam.

[former9thward]

54. The Pope does not know U.S. tax code.

Perhaps he should educate himself about it before he shows his lack of knowledge. Church business is taxed in the same way any other business is. The church non-profit status does not apply to any business the church has which makes a profit.

[MADem]

60. According to the article, he was addressing a common practice in Europe.

The article took a few of the pope's words, that appeared to be in the context of the refugee crisis, and tried to spin up a tale that tied into his USA trip.

The practice of renting space in religious buildings is very common in Europe. The philosophy behind it, that Pope Francis describes, could very well undermine what many televangelists do in the United States. Rather than practicing their religion, these charlatans run lean businesses and make fat profits. If the church isn’t engaged in the business of the Church, as Pope Francis explained, then it’s time for them to pay their fair share of taxes!

More to the point, I think the pope is telling people that their j-o-b isn't running a real estate venture, it's helping people. The PURPOSE is charity, the SIDELINE to keep the "Help the poor and needy" thing going is the profit-making stuff.

[Orrex]

81. What about church property?

Is church-owned land taxed at the same rate as equivalent commercially-owned real estate?

[PeaceNikki]

83. Oh, hell no. And the RCC and LDS churches are the biggest drain on local communities in this regard.

[Orrex]

84. Thank you.

Pittsburgh suffers from a good bit of that as well, along with other non-profits that don't pay property taxes.

Any claim that "the church does so pay taxes" is likely to be a smokescreen covering up the many millions lost to economies nationwide for these divine untaxed institutions.

[PeaceNikki]

85. Absolutely. The congregants use public roads to attend church,

if a church is on fire, local fire departments respond, is it's been broken into, police services are utilized. Those things cost money and of the land were occupied by residential or commercial entities the community would benefit from tax revenue to cover those costs. They aren't and, as a result, the others in the community have to pay more to compensate.

[PeaceNikki]

86. Also, other non profits are far more accountable than the churches.

[angryvet]

55. I love this man

oh I hope he stays safe coming to this country of gun and religious nuts.

[TexasProgresive]

68. Unless things have changed

Church owned commercial property is not tax free. I'm not sure about federal income tax but they must pay local and state taxes on it. The Diocese of Austin owns a parking garage next to the cathedral. They get out of it by allowing the state to use it during the week. A small portion is reserved for weekday parking and believe it or not a playground for the school kids.

[BeanMusical]

69. Kick and R

[ileus]

79. Did he sell all their treasures???

Poor pope....always wanting to spend other churches money.

[fadedrose]

94. they sure don't give to the poor and needy

I know folks who've gotten visits from church officials pressuring them to sign a pledge to contribute a certain amount a month, even when their jobs were lost (to China mostly). What scant income they managed to make. the church wanted their share. Not to help the poor and needy, most for the keep of the priest in his home.

This happened a lot in the steel-making towns, and probably the auto areas too.

[Faux pas]

103. Oh Bravo!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

107. WWJD? K&R

[Dont call me Shirley]

117. Pope Francis is to the Catholic Church as Bernie Sanders is to Politics.

[OldHippieChick]

118. Am so enjoying RW heads spinning over this Pope

George Will's column today sent a spear thru his ideas concerning climate change. So the Repukes don't want blacks or Latinos or women or Catholics - who is left? WASP old men? How many are left?

[Omaha Steve]

120. K&R!

[flamingdem]

145. Dear Pope Francis

Please continue to help kick evil Republican hiney every chance you get!