I drove past the solar plant on the CA/NV border yesterday...

[cherokeeprogressive]

It's called "Ivanpah Solar Power Facility". I've been past it a number of times but yesterday saw something I'd never noticed before. If you look close at the picture, you'll see a bright area fanning out diagonally from the top of one of the towers. This is the light reflected from thousands of mirrors, focused, and aimed at the top. When I got home, I looked it up and found out some surprising information.

The air in the lighted area can reach 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit. In April, the WSJ reported that over 3,500 birds have died in the last year while flying through the super-heated air. All are found with their feathers nearly burned off. The employees at the facility call them "streakers" because they leave a smokey streak behind on their way to the ground. Sucks.

[Duckhunter935]

1. interesting, thanks

[Stardust]

4. IIRC, wind turbines have been blamed for bird deaths, too. It seems that none of our energy

sources are without consequences.

ETA: I thought birds were considered fairly intelligent. Wouldn't the sight of their fellow birds catching fire deter them?

I drove by those things recently and had no idea what they were. I vaguely remember a sign but can't be sure.

[wordpix]

7. why does a group of firefighters die in western wildfires?

One guy dies, why do the rest follow that guy? Of course, they don't follow but get roasted along with the first guy due to the wind speed and direction + fuel availability.

Like humans who can't run fast enough to get out of a fire, most birds cannot fly straight up or down to keep from roasting in a streaker.

[mopinko]

33. they have yet to learn not to fly into skyscrapers.

during migrations here in chicago, hundreds of them fly into big buildings. many die. dedicated volunteers show up early in the morning and pick up the survivors. many of the buildings dim their lights during peak migration times, but they still die in large numbers.
so, no, i dont thing they learn to the point that it overrides their deepest instincts.

[Rex]

2. I am surprised birds do that, kind of goes against their nature.

Bugs I can see, birds...how strange imo.

[cantbeserious]

3. Energy Is The Lifeblood Of Industrial Society

Even so called "green" technologies have consequences. Establishment economics will not be denied. Humanities drive to maintain industrial society cannot be slowed by streakers.

[wordpix]

5. who owns the array? That's awful

Maybe the birds could be diverted elsewhere or the hot air could be trapped and used for energy. Poor birds

Pressure on the owner of the array is needed.

[Facility Inspector]

6. How can you divert birds flying in the open air?

[wordpix]

8. I have no idea - I'll leave that to the ornithologists & engineers

[wordpix]

9. hey, that's a better idea than what's happening now, which is birds roasting

[Lancero]

10. The oil and gas companies have a plan too - Get rid of solar, and you'll have no birds roasting.

[wordpix]

40. true, and that's why the solar industry needs to fix this

bad optics.

[Electric Monk]

19. Put up a tall fence (100ft? maybe more?) of chicken wire circling the facility?

Sun would still shine though it, and air would pass through it, but birds would be kept out.

[davidpdx]

23. I was thinking a high pitch noise that would travel just far enough to keep them out of that area

[jonno99]

52. "high-pitched noise" - my thot too. There must be some noise that says "stay away" - to a bird - and

won't drive the nearby human crazy...

[Travis_0004]

27. The towers are 400 feet tall.

Also a fence would block sunlight.

The issue is light attracts insects. Insects attack birds.

[Electric Monk]

30. ok, so a thousand foot tall fence/dome, or maybe the whole initial concept needs a redesign

There are other solar electric converters that don't cook birds.

[Travis_0004]

31. A dome over a solar plant?

Do you see any issues with this?

[GummyBearz]

35. Ooh

I do !!!

[Electric Monk]

60. Chicken wire is mostly air. And, of course there would be some compromise in efficiency.

[Wellstone ruled]

11. Question the WSJ so called report.

The number they keep using is totally wacko,and,BTW,the PETA dude got could planting a dead Duck near a Wind Tower in Eastern South Dakota. As far as the Ivanpah,yes,birds do fly through the light beams but those numbers were found to be blown way out of proportion just like the Birds and Wind Mills. I Believe Ivanpah is owned by Embridge which is a Koch Bros. entity.

[Stardust]

13. Wow, Kochs involved in solar power kind of stuns me. nt

[Electric Monk]

20. Ah, that would explain why it's being done badly and cutting corners. nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

14. I don't know who owns it.

from Wikipedia

The project was developed by BrightSource Energy and Bechtel. It cost $2.2 billion; the largest investor in the project is NRG Energy, a power generating company based in Princeton, New Jersey, that has contributed $300 million. Google has contributed $168 million.; the U.S. government provided a $1.6 billion loan guarantee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanpah_Solar_Power_Facility

[Wellstone ruled]

16. Embridge has a operational interest.

[cherokeeprogressive]

28. Are you sure you're talking about the same plant?

Look at the picture in the link. The pic I posted in the OP isn't solar panels, it's mirrors.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/business-business-press/energy/interior-secretary-touts-new-solar-power-plant-ivanpah-valley

[Wellstone ruled]

43. Sorry got the wrong plant,Enbridge

has a stake in the Solar Panel Farm on the Nevada side. I believe it is the one near Primm.

[mwdem]

32. It's owned by Brightsource, NRG, and Google.

Just go to the website www.ivanpahsolar.com.

[wordpix]

41. just read WSJ article, "NRG Retreats from Solar"

NRG is spinning off its solar and EV charging business to a new company called GreenCo, which will get $125 million from NRG to start up and then has to sink or swim on its own.

[Lancero]

12. And fossil fuel companies love pushing that number, because it tricks people into opposing solar...

Meanwhile, they are oddly silent on the millions that their industrys kill.

[img][/img]

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/08/25/3475348/bird-death-comparison-chart/

[DLnyc]

15. Does demonstrate how much energy the sun gives us, but maybe not the best approach.

According to wikipedia, Ivanpah, which uses heliostats and a central tower, has

"a gross capacity of 392 megawatts (MW).[5] . . . It cost $2.2 billion"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanpah_Solar_Power_Facility

So it apparently comes to something over $5 per gross watt capacity.

Compare this to Nevada Solar One, which uses lower-tech, lower temperature parabolic trough mirror technology and which, again according to wikipedia, has

" a nominal capacity of 64 MW and maximum steam turbine power output up to 72 MW net (75 MW gross) . . . The project required an investment of $266 million USD"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Solar_One

So this one apparently comes to somewhere between $3 and $4 per gross watt capacity.

The bottom line is the huge scale, ultra-high temperature approach (Ivanpah) is attractive to large capitalist institutions because they provide a type of monopoly (i.e. very high capital and technology hurdle to get in). But the lower tech, lower temperature approach of Nevada Solar One's parabolic trough mirrors may well be a better use of financial resources. Not to mention (paradoxically) Solar One seems to get more watt capacity per acre of land use, even running at a lower temperature.

Not to mention the birds. I don't think birds are getting burned up in the Nevada Solar One parabolic trough mirrors.

[Wellstone ruled]

44. There is another Plant of this type North of

Tonapah,Nevada. If you are driving East South East on 95 towards sun down,that's when we the light beam. This one is interesting when the cool weather hits,Rainbows in the cooling tower steam and fog.

[A HERETIC I AM]

17. There used to be one along I-40 near Yermo...

Not too far east of I-15. A prototype, if I remember correctly. I had been by it numerous times when it was still there but only a couple times when it was focused. The halo effect around the collector was quite dramatic.

I haven't been up I-15 since before the new ones were installed, but I would like to see them.

Pretty cool photo.

[cherokeeprogressive]

26. I think I saw it once or twice.

As soon as I saw the corona around the towers at Ivanpah I knew I had to have pics. I've seen that place dozens of times but never when there was enough haze to make that glow.

I took the pics from the driver's seat going 75 towing my boat LOL.

BTW When we were on the way to the lake we passed within about 25 miles of Hildale where the flood was. That was Sunday night. It was raining and lightning and blowing like mad. My Wife asked me to find a safe place to pull over. I'm a Wheel Man though. We pushed on.

[greendog]

47. 75 while towing?

It's 55 thru there.

[cherokeeprogressive]

48. 55 all over CA while towing... but YOU try going 55 on that stretch of road.

It's like asking to get rear-ended.

[cherokeeprogressive]

51. I've been there. The Wife and I rode my Road King to Boise a few years ago.

We stopped there when we got off onto the 395. Excellent breakfast.

[greendog]

53. I-Phone posting difficulties. See post below.

Good lunch. Probably have breakfast there in the morning before heading into LA.

[greendog]

50. I went thru there today.

I'm sitting in the "Semi-Famous" Outpost Cafe right now. 15 is crazy on Sunday morning with all the yahoos comming back from Vegas.
I'm not allowed to drive more than 5 over. I'll get a phone call from my safety manager.

[Marr]

18. This doesn't make much sense to me.

Birds aren't very active in the desert during the hours that those rays would be powerful.

[X_Digger]

21. Oh noes, we should shut that shit down, right fuckin now!

(Sarcasm for the perpetually sarcasm impaired.)

[Orrex]

39. Or, at the very least, we should operate it only at night

[krispos42]

22. that's about one every 2.5 hours

I think the ecosystem can sustain that. Global warming, coal ash, acid rain... Not so much.

Basically, this solar-concentration plant had the same bird-killing capacity as a couple of dozen feral cats.

Bring on the solar!

[cherokeeprogressive]

25. Nowhere in my post did I suggest not using solar power.

Three towers like the one in my photograph on 4,000 acres. 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit. I believe there are other methods of generating energy from the Sun that don't put that kind of heat into the atmosphere.

The birds seem minor compared to that.

[krispos42]

29. didn't mean to imply you did

I just get a gut feeling that the WSJ is bringing up that point to knock solar down. In favor of coal and natural gas, of course. Conservatives also seem to be concerned with wind turbines and birds as well. Convenient, eh?


The solar plant doesn't increase or decrease the amount of energy coming into the atmosphere; it's the same amount of sunlight, just concentrated. It's a heat source to boil water, same as coal, gas, and uranium.

[Oilwellian]

24. Fossil Fuels are responsible for far more bird deaths per year

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/08/25/3475348/bird-death-comparison-chart/

[tabasco]

34. Article from Scientific American on the topic

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/solar-farms-threaten-birds/

[IDemo]

36. With photovoltaic's rapid decline in dollars per kilowatt,

I think solar thermal will see a decline in the years to come. In the meantime, see: Wind turbines kill around 300,000 birds annually, house cats around 3,000,000,000

[hunter]

37. We had to destroy the environment in order to save it!

I think these desert solar plants are loathsome.

Every parking lot in sunny urban areas ought to have solar awnings over it, providing shade for the cars parked underneath, even recharging those cars that are electric.

There is absolutely no excuse for building anything new on undeveloped land, most especially fragile desert environments.

We've destroyed too much of our natural environment already.

Just because a coal mine and power plant are worse doesn't make solar power plants like these a good idea.

[DLnyc]

38. Solar parking lots!

Great idea!

[Liberal_in_LA]

46. lots of solar parking lots in LA

[DLnyc]

57. I didn't realize it was already being done. I think this a great win-win trend!

Cool off the parking lots and create virtually carbon-free energy.

I love it!

Have you seen them yourself?

[Liberal_in_LA]

59. yes. picture

?37ca75

Calif state university Northridge

[DLnyc]

61. Cool, thanks!

[wordpix]

42. I agree and solar panels for every bldg where feasible are more efficient

than a huge plant in the desert since energy will be lost along the transmission lines.

Not an expert but I did take a college course, "Physics and the Environment."

[Wellstone ruled]

45. They are coming. We have a few Parking facilities here in the Valley that are Solar Panel

placement sources. Sad to say,Nevada Power runs the Utility Commission pretty much,and they are doing every thing possible to curtail Solar . The latest is their refusal to get on board with Net Metering. I guess this is what happens when your State Legislature goes Tea Billy.

[aidbo]

54. Perspective on bird deaths.

I don't want to make light of bird deaths. There has been concern about solar and wind farms & bird deaths.

But by far the most bird deaths are caused by felines at 3.7 billion annually. Which is bigger than the 3500 bird deaths by a factor of a million.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/29/cats-wild-birds-mammals-study/1873871/

[RiverLover]

55. Thank you for that.

I love my darling cats, but they are murderers if I let them outdoors. Or they could be done in by a raccoon or coyote. Kill or be killed. Better to just make them stay in & give them lots of toys.

[aidbo]

56. Quote the scorpion: "It's in my nature" or something like that.

[Zorra]

58. Wow, that's a lot of dead birds! nt