Don't Buy The Hype — Airbnb And Uber Are Terrible For The Economy

[KamaAina]

http://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-and-uber-are-terrible-for-the-economy-2014-5

The "sharing economy" – typified by companies like Airbnb or Uber, both of which now have market capitalizations in the billions – is the latest fashion craze among business writers. But in their exuberance over the next big thing, many boosters have overlooked the reality that this new business model is largely based on evading regulations and breaking the law.

For the uninitiated, Airbnb is an internet-based service that allows people to rent out spare rooms to strangers for short stays. Uber is an internet taxi service that allows tens of thousands of people to answer ride requests with their own cars. There are hundreds of other such services that involve the renting or selling of everything from power tools to used suits and wedding dresses.

The good thing about the sharing economy is that it facilitates the use of underutilized resources. There are millions of people with houses or apartments that have rooms sitting empty, and Airbnb allows them to profit from these empty rooms while allowing guests a place to stay at prices that are often far less than those charged by hotels. Uber offers prices that are competitive with standard taxi prices and their drivers are often much quicker and more reliable – and its drivers can drive as much or as little as they like, without making a commitment to standard shifts. Other services allow for items to be used productively that would otherwise be gathering dust.

But the downside of the sharing economy has gotten much less attention. Most cities and states both tax and regulate hotels, and the tourists who stay in hotels are usually an important source of tax revenue (since governments have long recognized that a modest hotel tax is not likely to discourage most visitors nor provoke the ire of constituents). But many of Airbnb's customers are not paying the taxes required under the law.

[Nye Bevan]

1. "Uber might already be reducing DUIs"

http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-might-already-be-reducing-duis-2014-7

[yeoman6987]

6. I like uber. Great company.

I also think the renting out room thing is great for both the owner and customer. With hotels at a minimum 100 dollars a night, why not have alternatives for travelers?

[philosslayer]

64. Uber exploits desperate workers

And skirts regulations. As for AirBnB, read the article. Valuable tax revenue is lost every time someone rents out a room -- tax free. And cities need that revenue.

The "sharing economy" is a cancer. It feels good in the moment, but its very destructive in the long run.

[Recursion]

66. So do cab companies

The difference is Uber doesn't also corrupt local politics like medallion owners do.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

140. Fascinating! Tell me how all of this works

[MFrohike]

174. hahahahahaha

That's only because Travis is a complete dickhead. It's hard to corrupt local politics when they hate you too much to take your money.

It's fun to lionize Uber as long as you ignore their externalizing costs onto the drivers, the threats made to journalists, and their radical libertarianism. Once you take account of all that, it looks like another bunch of greedy shitbags screwing people for a buck.

[Recursion]

175. Want to talk about what the medallion owners have done to DC city politics? (nt)

[MFrohike]

176. Sure

Let's talk about it. I have no fear of talking about it. Just because I think Uber and Travis Kalanick are bad doesn't mean I think the cab companies are somehow better.

You don't have to pick sides in order to tell the truth. The fact that Uber and Kalanick are harmful does not equal the medallion owners as being good.

[Recursion]

177. Well then we agree that both are bad

I find a lot of Uber's practices troubling too. I'm not bothered by complaints against Uber; I'm bothered by the claim (often explicit) that medallion taxis are good. As I keep saying, I'd love it if the class action suit manages to force both Uber and taxi companies to hire drivers as W2s.

[MFrohike]

178. That'd be a good step

I'd like to see Uber be required to make payments for upkeep of the vehicle as well. It's a cost of doing their business, so they should be responsible for it.

[Recursion]

179. Like a mileage pro-rate or something?

That's a good idea. How do more traditional driver-owner fleet car services do it?

[MFrohike]

183. Yes and I have no idea

I suspect they screw their drivers in a different way, but I'm pretty clueless on the issue. I guess it's time to learn about a new subject.

[Initech]

25. That's about the only good thing about Uber.

You're a driver? Good luck collecting a paycheck. You're a rider? Try riding at peak hours -they'll slap on a 110% surcharge and stick you with the most expensive option. I know, I got screwed by them recently. Fuck Uber, take taxis instead.

[lonestarnot]

27. Uber boober. Time to roll or drunk or snatch a purse... Any reports on this kind of crap by their

drivers yet?

[mopinko]

166. yes.

i believe there was at least one uber driver accused of rape here in chicago.
i think there will be plenty of that.

[Egnever]

34. Paychecks are direct deposited

and you are notified of rate changes before you accept the ride.

[Initech]

51. I got charged $200 after accepting what should have been a $45 ride.

You can't tell me they don't inform you of *THAT* before accepting. I contacted Uber multiple times about it and they purposefully cancelled the ride I initially requested and stuck me with the most expensive option. I'm fighting with management to at least get some of my money back, but I am not having much luck.

And as far as a paycheck goes, I was referring to the mediocre pay that Uber drivers make.

[Egnever]

118. Sounds like a glitch

You are given an estimate of the cost of the ride before you accept. If you were charged more something went wrong.

When surge pricing is in effect you have to acknowledge the price change before accepting the ride.

And here in Vegas uber drivers are making way more than cab drivers even after expenses. I can't speak for other cities. The cab companies have lost 15% of their drivers so far.

That doesn't happen because the pay is worse than the cab company.

[Recursion]

57. Screw cabs. I'm tired of rides being refused and arbitrary rates

"Sorry, I won't go to Petworth, it's too close."

"Oh, the meter's broken. That will be $20."

Screw that. Not to mention how millionaire medallion owners have such an outsized influence in city politics.

[Initech]

92. Yeah kind of one of those pick your poison kind of things.

I'll never take Uber after a concert ever again, that's for damn sure.

[Recursion]

97. Neither do cab companies

You're fooling yourself if you think medallion owners are better.

[davidpdx]

40. In South Korea they have companies (other than Uber) where you can call

and someone will come and drive you AND your car to your home.

When I bought my car 5 1/2 years ago I did so through a private seller and it was on a weekend. I could not legally drive my car since I was not insured. The person who drives your car carries their own insurance. Also before I could get insurance I had to register the car in my name, something that had to be done at a local office during a weekday.

[Recursion]

59. India has that.

Self-driving is a relatively new thing (until a few years ago if you could afford a car you could afford a driver), so they're still working out how to deal with DUI.

[Initech]

93. That's pretty sweet.

[treestar]

69. It is a great resource for that

though people could get taxis before. But not on the spot as easily, perhaps.

[unblock]

2. "modest" hotel tax?

every hotel i've ever been in has had a pretty steep taxes. i get the reasoning, but i wouldn't call it "modest". it's often two or three times the local sales tax rate, sometimes even more.

[Egnever]

3. Uber pays taxes and is subject to whatever regulation

The cities they operate in chose to impose. This sounds like corporate sponsored nonsense.

[KamaAina]

8. The article is from The Guardian

hardly a hotbed of "corporate sponsored nonsense".

[Egnever]

15. Doesn't mean they are immune to it

[alarimer]

12. No. they do not.

It is deliberately structured to avoid any and all regulation. The drivers are "contractors", thus avoiding labor regulations and responsibility for their actions, with the aim of "privatizing profit and socializing the risk." In this they are not much different than Wal-Mart or Amazon, both equally reprehensible corporations. We decry their practices all the time, yet Uber and the others are lauded because they are hot shit right now. But in fact, they suck as much as any other.

[Egnever]

14. How do you figure that?

What labor regulations are the drivers avoiding? Be specific.

[csziggy]

23. When companies define workers as contractors

They do not pay unemployment, liability, health, or workman's compensation insurance. This leaves both the worker and the public uncovered for all hazards.

Uber drivers are not making all that much so paying for insurance to cover those things is pretty much impossible. If they are in an accident and a passenger is injured, who is going to cover that passenger's injuries and losses? Uber surely won't and the driver probably would not have the resources to do it if they can't afford the insurance to cover their asses. If the driver is injured in an accident he is just SOL.

[Egnever]

30. Well

I would have to agree on the workman's comp .the insurance however is taken care of by both the driver and uber. I believe uber throws a million dollar rider on top so insurance for injuries should be covered.

Driving a cab doesn't put you in a better situation and a wreck at a cab company is termination and black balling. So you can't get another job your fault or not.

There are certainly differences between the two but when you factor in the ability to work when you want that scews the difference towards the uber side for a whole lot of people not to mention the money for the driver even with expenses is better on the uber side for the driver. Can companies are shedding drivers like mad in Vegas the drivers would not be bailing if they were getting a better deal at thee cab companies.

[Recursion]

52. You know cab companies do that too, right? (nt)

[csziggy]

101. Yes, and newspapers do it to their delivery people

And FedEx tried to do it to their delivery people. It's only good for the corporations and not good for the workers.

[Recursion]

113. So how is Uber the problem here? (nt)

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

142. You're hilarious! Please explain!!

That's a hilarious tactic!!! I usually see people who haven't a clue as to what they're talking about use it!

Go on, please explain!

[Recursion]

143. Cab drivers are 1099s, not W2s

There's no such thing as a cab driver who is an "employee" of the cab service. They are independent contractors.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

146. I'll be damned, you know one thing!

[Recursion]

148. Why are you astroturfing for millionaire medallion owners?

It's really strange.

[Iris]

24. Workers' Comp comes to mind. n/t

[Egnever]

33. Yup

Would have to agree with you on workman's comp. But the cab company will fight to deny you workman's comp and blackball you for an accident so not sure how that is better.

Hopefully this will force competition and in the end make it better for the workers on both sides.There are stories here already of cab companies improving their fleets.

[Recursion]

68. OK, while I'm largely pro-Uber I definitely agree on that

Though I think in broad strokes people who pay 1099s in all sectors should pay into workers' comp.

[dflprincess]

26. Does Uber supply car insurance for its drivers?

When my policy renewed in June it had a rider attached that I was not covered should I decide to use my vehicle as a taxi (or however official way it was worded). As I have no plans to do so I really don't care, but it made me think twice about calling Uber for a ride if the driver is not insured.

[Egnever]

35. The driver has to cary their own insurance

But when on a trip or waiting for one Uber also provides additional insurance.

[Recursion]

61. From pick up to drop off, yes

The problem is that most auto insurance policies won't cover you in the time between getting the ping and picking up the passenger. There are some policies that are starting to do that though.

[Lee-Lee]

39. Almost every taxi company 1099's their drivers as contractors

At least in big cities that is the norm.

[Recursion]

62. Name me a taxi company in the US that has W2 drivers

I've been looking for about a year and haven't found one.

[gratuitous]

13. Uber is indeed subject to regulation

But if Portland's experience is any guide, Uber doesn't comply with those regulations.

What Uber does do in a terrific way is it siphons off a lot of revenue from localities and sends it to corporate headquarters.

[lonestarnot]

28. How do we know their tires are any good, or the steering wheel steers?

[Egnever]

32. The cars are inspected

???

[lonestarnot]

130. Who inspects them?

[Recursion]

133. The same mechanics who inspect cabs

Your state does require inspections for all vehicles, right? Assuming your handle refers to Texas, it sure did when I lived there.

[lonestarnot]

135. Not in TX, AZ and I see cabbies around here that don't appear to have passed any kind of rigorous

mechanical inspection, but never had a reason to wonder about it until waiting in traffic behind one of them or this thread.

[Recursion]

63. Because it has an inspection sticker?

[lonestarnot]

131. LOL a sticker. ROFLMAO.

[Recursion]

132. Do you have an issue with your state's vehicle inspection regime? (nt)

[lonestarnot]

134. I'm not so sure. My ass gets chapped when I take the car to get emission tested and give them money

, but I'd rather do that than breath exhaust. And if they are so great, how did VW get away with there crap for so long and with so many cars?

[Recursion]

136. So how are cabs any better than Uber as far as that goes?

[lonestarnot]

167. I honestly do not know.

Don't cabbies have a union?

[Recursion]

168. No

Some cabbies are in NTWA, which is an independent contractor association (not a union; AFL had to change its bylaws to let it affiliate).

But none of them have collective bargaining agreements with medallion owners.

[lonestarnot]

169. Well then they need to create one.

[Recursion]

170. I'm all for it. They should join with Uber drivers. I bet the Teamsters would take them (nt)

[lonestarnot]

173. I bet they would too!

[msongs]

4. they are the equivalent of day laborers hanging around outside Home Depot nt

[TampaAnimusVortex]

5. I couldn't care less about voluntary exchanges.

People want to take Uber, so be it. I'm not going to be some nosey busybody butting into their dealings.

And if a city and county are so strapped they need to worry about AirBnB, then they have bigger issues they need to address first.

[KamaAina]

7. AirBnB in particular has had negative effects besides taxation

San Francisco in particular is dealing with people renting out vacant units as AirBnB rentals instead of to people who would, you know, actually live in them. There have even been cases of tenants being evicted so as to free up their apartments for AirBnB! The article doesn't address this point.

And lots of other recent developments have hurt tax revenues. Enough people in California have switched to hybrids or all-electric vehicles that the state is starting to feel the pinch of lower gas tax revenues!

[lunatica]

9. Maybe the tax laws should be changed.

I would prefer not to subsidize the military for one.

[KamaAina]

10. I hear ya!

We are actually looking into a per-mile fee to replace or bolster the gas tax. Thing is, that's regressive, too, since lower-income people are being pushed away from employment centers like $iliValley.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

18. So? I'm not seeing a problem here.

Two people voluntarily interacting... Doesn't sound like its my or your business to tell them they need to rent their home out monthly instead of daily.

Live and let live.

[KamaAina]

19. The homes are zoned residential.

In SF, that means a 30-day minimum.

[Adrahil]

42. Then wouldn't it already be against the law?

Let's not overcomplicate this. These businesses are doing well becuase they are offering some perceived as superior by their customers. If traditional businesses want to compete with them, they need to offer something better.

[KittyWampus]

76. They are breaking the law. Tax free, regulation free. Undercutting businesses who HAVE to:

Meet Fire Codes at great expense
Pass yearly Fire Inspection

Meet Health Codes at great expense
Pass yearly Health Inspection

Pay higher Insurance to cover guests

Pay state and federal taxes on income not just local

Pay into unemployment for employees on Payroll

Do much more bookkeeping

AirB&B does well because people are breaking the law and undercutting legitimate businesses by providing rooms that have not been inspected, insured or accounted for.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

78. So you want to outlaw all contract work...

Got it. No one can contract with anyone else. If you want a gardener to mow your lawn, now you have to hire them and provide benefits for him.

If you want a painter to paint your house, be ready to provide them with medical insurance.

Good thinking!

[KittyWampus]

81. If you hire a gardener and they hit your gas line and your house blows up...

and they turn out not to have been insured?

Independent contractors are just that, btw.

Independent… which means they don't have an agent like Uber raking off a percentage.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

82. So was correct - you want to outlaw contract work.

So the answer about having anyone wanting to hire a contractor to be obligated to hire them seems to be true according to your statements. Yeah, good luck with that.

[uppityperson]

105. Reading through this thread, that seems to be one issue. Contractors or self employed

do not have L&I, workman's comp, may not report all their income (under the table) though that is true of any business (may not report all income).

Yes, people who work for themselves can have problems if they get hurt or hurt someone. Ethical ones like me and my spouse have insurance to provide for others who are hurt but when we get hurt it is too bad for us.

[Adrahil]

104. If they are breaking the law, I'd expect the law to do something about it.

I think the "breaking the law" card seems to be overplayed.

I don't use Air BnB, but if they force hotels to do better, I'm for it.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

119. I agree - Just ignore stupid laws

Previously when it was illegal, I said gay people should get married anyways.
I still think if you want to smoke pot, go for it.

“If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law” - Henry David Thoreau.

[kentauros]

109. As I happily live in a city without zoning,

does that mean when people telecommute, that they are breaking the law? Because that certainly does sound like it makes it against the law for people to have home businesses, even ones done solely over the Internet.

I'm just curious because I've never heard of anyone here getting in trouble for having a home business, unless it breaks some other law, such as health & hygiene when cooking out of the home.

[KamaAina]

111. SF has thousands upon thousands of designated live/work units

Many people just use them as loft-style apartments, and get business licenses for nonexistent businesses in order to occupy them.

[kentauros]

112. Okay, I understand stuff like that.

But how does it work for someone either telecommuting or otherwise working from home with a home-based online business? Unless they're making enough money to be able to move into such a living quarters or offices, I seriously doubt most telecommuters or home-based businesses are going to do that. Because you already have your home. You don't need another one just for work. I see plenty of parallels with that and the issues of this thread.

[KamaAina]

114. Get a mailbox for the business?

Most cities only care if the business is attracting clients into a residential neighborhood.

[kentauros]

115. And that's true as to what cities care about.

Yet, by your statement about the laws people may be breaking with Uber or Airbnb, that those same laws would adversely affect any home-based business, no matter whether people or product is showing up at the home.

[philosslayer]

70. You sound like a Libertarian

We have regulations on commerce for a reason.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

77. Name calling?

So I guess you'll be happy to run over to the neighbors house and tell them house to decorate next? Regulations don't need to micromanage every single detail in the world. Get some perspective.

[nichomachus]

128. Yeah, except living and let living isn't happening.

Speculators are gobbling up scarce apartments/homes and renting them out by the day, which is in violation of city regulations. They're very hard to nail down.

I looked at one listing in Portland for a "whole home." The people renting it out bragged that they had eight homes in Portland that they were renting out. This is a business that should be covered under current hotel laws. It isn't.

Also, imagine you have a nice home in a nice neighborhood. All of a sudden the person who owns the home next door decides to rent it out every weekend to a different group of party animals. This has happened to numerous friends of mine. Now, you have 6 to 8 people who are there to drink, party, play loud music, etc. Every. Single. Weekend. Your property values can drop by 30 percent. Not to mention the loss of any "quiet enjoyment" of your property.

And, the city doesn't get the tourist tax they would get if these people stayed in a hotel.

Maybe if the people next door to you did this, with a different group of screaming, howling drunks every weekend, you might see the problem.

[mythology]

53. Uber violates legal protections for workers

Caring about that doesn't make someone a busy body.

And if we don't care about taxes from one business why should we care about any business or person paying taxes.

New companies don't get to violate the law just because they are new.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

74. Care all you want...

But if you want to go around butting into other's voluntary decisions, then don't expect someone not to call you out on it. Using force instead of voluntary interaction is the mark of some serious issues.

[stevenleser]

90. No different from existing cab companies. You understand that, right? nt

[tenderfoot]

67. You COULDN'T care less...

[TampaAnimusVortex]

75. Lol! :)

[tenderfoot]

94. LOL!

[Logical]

84. I think you mean "couldn't care less". Nt

[alarimer]

11. They're great if you like no regulation

"Sharing" economy is just bullshit for no regulations. Fuck Uber and it's libertarian asshole philosophy.

[GummyBearz]

17. Like taxis are great...

Fuck taxi drivers and their "I dont have change for a $20 for your $8 ride" mentality

[Skittles]

36. I have never had that happen

[GummyBearz]

37. I've had it happen numerous times

Also the good old "my card reader is broken, there is an ATM right over here you can withdraw the money" .... great, thanks.

And now that there is an app in LA/OC area (Curb/Taxi Magic) that uses GPS coordinates, but gives your driver a "nearby" address that isn't the correct one, I got my first pleasant "Fuck you! You gave me an address you are not there! *click*" phone call from a taxi driver.

So far uber has a 100% success rate for me

[Adrahil]

43. I sure have.

Personally I'm sick of smelly, dirty cabs, with rude and crooked drivers that take 20 minutes to arrive.

If traditional taxis want to compete, they need to improve.... A lot.

[Lyric]

46. I have. Our local Yellow Cab drivers are total sleazeballs.

And sex offenders. They actually sent a registered sex offender (a convicted rapist) to pick me and my female partner up and drive us places when we were carless. Their drivers smoke cigarettes in the cab (totally illegal), and pulled the "I don't have change" trick often enough that we started carrying a roll of 1's and 5's in our backpacks, just in case. It was horrifying, but if you complained, they'd retaliate by making sure that your cabs were always two hours late or never showed up at all. We very much depended on them at the time to get to work and to our college classes on time in bad weather, so we kept our mouths shut. But never again. Bastards.

[Skittles]

125. you have a city problem

they certainly do not act that way here

[Recursion]

137. City politicians are usually beholden to medallion owners

They're some of the richest people in a lot of cities and inordinately influence city politics and don't care if people like their service or not because the city government protects their monopoly.

Uber is a corporation which means for all its flaws it doesn't want to actively lose customers to Lyft and so may listen at least some times.

[Recursion]

55. I literally do not believe you

That's been my near constant experience with American taxis. Am I doing something wrong?

[clarice]

16. IMHO "No tax is a good tax". nt

[philosslayer]

71. Oh really?

What a progressive attitude you have. Cities need tax revenue.

[Omaha Steve]

20. Thanks for posting

K&R!

OS

[KamaAina]

21. You will no doubt be pleased to hear that cab drivers are organizing

in Newark and Denver, to name two, in response to the Uber/Lyft threat.

[Adrahil]

44. Hopefully they organize to be better....

I'm not interested in solutions that excuse shitty service and a godawful experience. Cabbies and taxi businesses can compete by offering a better service. Simply killing a better service is not the answer. And for me, it's not even about the money. I'd pay more for Uber than a taxi, because taxis suck.

[Lyric]

47. [phone] nt

[Recursion]

54. You will be sad to learn no cab driver in the US has a collective bargaining agreement

Or, for that matter, is an employee. NTWA is not a labor union and people should stop calling it one.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

22. I like to know the cost of a ride at least by the time I end it.

Not weeks later when my credit card bill arrives and tells me a few rain droplets on the windshield made it a premium cost ride.

[KamaAina]

29. Nice scam, guys!

Although that's rarely an issue on their home SF turf. How did they come up with that?

[Egnever]

31. You get an estimate before you accept the ride

And the rates don't change mid ride.

[Recursion]

65. I get an estimate when I enter the destination

And an immediate email when my card is charged at the end. That's Uber India, though; US may work differently.

On a side note, Uber is nearly absent from Vienna, which is probably because the cabs here are awesome.

[Lee-Lee]

38. Uber is crap. I'm torn on Air BnB

I have a friend who lost his wife to suicide 2 years ago, and the only way he has been able to keep his house is by renting a room on Air BnB 10-15 days a month. It keeps the mortgage and taxes paid on it for him on a single income where he couldn't have done so otherwise with the loss of her income so suddenly with no insurance payoff.

So I see how it pays off for some people who really do need the income.

[KittyWampus]

79. your friend could have rented a room on a longer term basis and been legal and not screwed over

legitimate businesses.

[Lee-Lee]

83. Long term rental pays less and generally

brings less desirable tenants when your just renting a room.

I've been there, done that.

He can make 2-3x doing short term rentals what he would get for a room- in his area there is demand for short term rentals for numerous events, but most long term renters just wanting a room are less than optimal to share a home with.

I'm not sure where you are getting its not legal- where he is located (between Aiken SC and Augusta GA) it's perfectly legal to do what he is doing and he isn't screwing anyone over. He gets a lot of people coming in for equestrian events because he has a fenced pasture he can offer those bringing horses a rental on that at the same time- Aiken is a big horse area so that works well for him.

[KittyWampus]

88. Most locals have limits on how many times you can rent a room

short term.

He IS screwing over local LEGAL establishments.

BTW, is he declaring income? Is he meeting fire, health regulations? Is he paying more insurance?

And your rationale is exactly why many communities are finding it harder to house local residents.

So your friend COULD have rented a room longer term and made less money and been legal, safe and a good member of his community.

But he chose to make more money and go the libertarian 'screw everyone but me' route.

[Lee-Lee]

99. In his area it's perfectly legal and called a "honestay"

And yes, his insurance is proper as is his business license and he declares it- he gets a 1099 from Airbnb so it's not like he is hiding the income.

I already explained why renting a room long term isn't viable- it doesn't bring in enough money to keep his mortgage paid, tenants are less desirable and generally unstable when you rent rooms long term so they will disappear leaving you with a vacant room and no income until you find someone new and that hurts finances.

Your assuming he is breaking the law- he isn't. In rural areas of the country outside city limits they don't have the same restrictions you would find in a big city, and what he does is really no different than what a Bed and Breakfast does except he doesn't serve meals. Not every place has the complex zoning laws of big cities, heck I own and rent a home in a place with no zoning at all.

He is a legal establishment- just like a hotel or a B&B. Your instance in claiming he is screwing over all the big hotels makes me wonder if your not shilling for the industry- do you work in the hospitality industry?

[uppityperson]

107. They said it was legal, and they could've made less money by not renting at all. Hardly a compelling

argument. It was legal and safe, so why not make more money?


"your friend COULD have rented a room longer term and made less money and been legal, safe and a good member of his community"

[davidpdx]

41. I have used AirBnB here in Korea a few times

Each time it was with the same family. I needed a place close to work to avoid the commute a few days a week. The thing is after you stay one night, it's just as easy to make a side deal with the person renting and eliminate AirBnB's cut.

[treestar]

72. Interesting thought

though one day, probably in the US, someone is going to get murdered or raped or something like that.

[HickFromTheTick]

45. It's all about driving while uninsured.....

Here in Ontario, taxi insurance is about $150 a week/$7500 a year. I used to drive a WestWay cab here in Ottawa in my college days, I know how much it is. If you are in an accident while driving for Uber, you are NOT insured unless your insurance card says "taxi". Period.
People might try to weasel out of it by not admitting to be "on the clock" at the time of the accident, but that is fraud and not relevant to the argument. I don't know of any insurance coverage offered by Uber at this point. If they do offer a plan to their "contractors", then I don't see how you could justify the expense unless you're driving full time. Something just ain't right here. What insurance does Uber offer that would cover contractors? None, that's what. I'd like to see how many Uber drivers have "taxicab" on their insurance card.

[Egnever]

154. Just completely wrong

Uber adds one million in coverage on top of the drivers coverage whenever the driver has a passenger. It also adds additional coverage for the driver when he is on the clock without a passenger.

[randome]

48. What gets me about these sharing businesses...

...is that we at DU regularly excoriate unbridled Capitalism and for good reason. But if someone here gets a benefit out of Uber or Airbnb, then suddenly it's okay. Rah! Rah! and all that.

These are both companies run by the dictates of desperation Capitalism. Not even anywhere near the Mom-and-Pop companies we hold up as good examples. The only ones making out like bandits are the owners, who rake in millions.

And this is something to be celebrated?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Adrahil]

49. The reality is....

that most city taxi services suck. The cars are often dirty. The cabbies are often rude. The service is inflexible and firmyl rooted in the past.

It's not surprising that people embrace a service that offers a better experience.

I certainly will not try to defend everything Uber does as a company, but in the end, traditional cab or hospitality service providers must focus on offering a better customer experience, rather than trying to shut down the competition.

[Darb]

73. It is not "competition", they are not playing on the same field.

It is a loophole in a business model that they are exploiting. They should regulate them the same way, then they could compete.

[Adrahil]

103. Just an excuse....

Uber would not even exist if traditional cabs were not so awful.

I'll reiterate.... instead of trying to kill off Uber, traditional taxi services should unfuck themselves. They offer an overpriced, terrible service.

[Recursion]

56. I've yet to hear a way medallions are better for drivers

Taxi drivers are contractors exploited by millionaire medallion owners, but somehow DU pretends this is a group of unionised employees (they are neither).

[randome]

58. Well, they SHOULD be unionized. But adding more exploited workers to the pool is not the answer.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Recursion]

60. They have to be employees first

Hell, AFL had to change its constitution to let NTWA affiliate because it's an independent contractor association. By that logic the Chamber of Commerce could affiliate with AFL. More troublingly, some NTWA members are owner-operators who contract other drivers on their medallion when they aren't driving. That has no business being in AFL, IMO.

[FLPanhandle]

50. If taxis and hotels were better options, then we wouldn't be having this discussion

Frankly, most taxi services in the US suck big time especially in smaller towns and cities.

I love Uber. The drivers are better, the cars are better, the service is faster, and it's all electronic. If taxis don't like that, then they need to improve to compete.

[Darb]

80. When they get regulated like the old business models, then we will see

how much "better" they are.

It is unfair competition to have an unregulated business exploiting a sort of regulatory loophole to steal away customers. Hotels and Taxi companies have abided by the laws for years and now via our interconnected society, their businesses are in danger. Would be fine, but this new model doesn't operate under the same regulations and should have to. It is the same way in any business, there are always cheaters who do not want to follow the regulation, get the licenses, pay the taxes, etc. etc. Every business has them just about. They are cheaters.

Let me give you one example: handicap access.

[stevenleser]

91. There is virtually no difference between Cab companies and Uber. Hotels and airbnb is a different

story at least in terms of taxation. However, hotels often employ undocumented workers in their housekeeping and restaurant staff and pay them sub minimum wage so you have a worse situation in hotels vs airbnb in terms of how workers are treated.

[Darb]

121. Apples and oranges steven.

It is against the law to pay sub-minimum wage no? Who is cleaning the airb&b rooms? Nobody knows.

So an uber vehicle pays the same taxes and fees as a cab? Great. What else?

[stevenleser]

123. The owner of the property cleans the airb&b rooms.

A medallion cab is a subcontractor not an employee, just like an Uber driver.

[Recursion]

138. Uber pays the same taxes as a fleet car service, not as taxis

The dividing line between taxis and car services is that taxis can take street hails. Uber cannot, so they are not taxed as a taxi service.

[FLPanhandle]

124. Where in the taxi regulations does it state they use POS cars and surly drivers

Taxi's need the competition as they have no incentive to provide any acceptable customer service today.

I'll keep using Uber until Taxi's can provide me the same quality of service.

[Logical]

85. I love airbnb. Best trips ever and cheaper. Nt

[KittyWampus]

89. You you aren't actually a Progressive then. You are a Libertarian. Good to know.

You screwed over government, local communities, other legal businesses.

But you saved some money!

[Logical]

96. LOL, you are funny.....

Wanted a cabin in the mountains in colorado, no hotel or resort had any available. The one place that did was $450 a night, found a airbnb for $200 and 30 minutes closer to the town we needed. So you must not think the owner deserved the money! And we spent the $200 a day savings in local towns. You are not a deep thinker i bet.

[uppityperson]

108. Rather than going on a trip and spending money there, staying home is better for local

communities?

The name calling continues and gets old.

[KittyWampus]

126. the choice isn't between not going on a trip or staying at a libertarian, anti-government airB&B

place.

The choice is staying at a LEGAL business who pays taxes and meets government regulations or a place that doesn't pay taxes and meets zero governmental regulations.

last edit- calling libertarian anti-government business models what they are rather than using the euphemism "sharing" isn't name calling.

[uppityperson]

129. True, that was not my choice. My choice was stay at an Airbnb and spend money locally or not go.

Private homes meet "zero gvt regulations"? Seriously? Have you never heard of building codes? Why did we need permits and inspections when building out home?

Zero governmental regulations?

[Travis_0004]

127. Air BNB is nothing new

Vacation rentals are nothing new. Go to a tourist area, they have been around for 50 years. Airbnb didn't invent anything new, they just made them easier to find, easier to rent, and made them a bit more common in areas they were not already in.

[rafeh1]

86. Article is plant by hotel lobbying group

The hotel lobby has no numbers like taxis so they trying to help citoes collect taxes ..

[TBF]

87. Sharing is awesome -

but we need to look at proportions. Right now the billionaires control 90% (at least) of the wealth and everyone else is expected to share the remaining resources. This is BS.

[ibegurpard]

160. yeah especially when employees "share" the costs

and "employers" take a cut of the profits.
And so-called "progressives" are pushing for this bullshit?

[TBF]

165. As a socialist I see it all the time

often it's the more well-off amongst us who see things like tiny houses and think "oh well now the homeless can have somewhere to live". They usually mean well but it's just more band-aids without fixing the underlying problem - the gross economic inequality behind all of this.

[GoneOffShore]

100. We're AirBnB hosts and have been for six years.

It's enabled us to supplement our income, plus meet some really cool people.

We run the money through our business(which is sporadic) and just recently the City of Philadelphia has worked out a deal with AirBnB to collect the hotel tax. So business taxes are taken care of.

We rent out one room in our house and don't have another property.

Without AirBnB it's likely that we would have had to sell the house we're in. So, thanks to everyone who wants to 'outlaw' the company.

They provide a service - connecting travelers who might not be able to afford exorbitant hotel rates with homeowners who want to supplement their income. They bring people into cities. They give business travelers the chance to see something besides an anonymous hotel room.

So yeah, it's just awful.

[uppityperson]

102. I used Airbnb and supported the economy where I visited by buying food, museum fees, etc

I spent money, just not on housing. Taxes were paid and money was spent and I got to do the trip since housing was low cost. However, you do need to be very careful because there are bad people out there.

[1939]

110. As noted above,

you are more likely to get a bad person renting it by the month (and getting that person evicted can be costly and time consuming). Generally an airbnb customer is gone in a day or two.

[LittleBlue]

106. Wait until we get self-driving cars

Unfortunately I think taxi drivers are not long for this world. Any job where repetitive tasks are performed is especially vulnerable to technology like this.

[Cayenne]

116. Few big employers left; none coming

The economy is being atomized into Uber and such. Punishing corporations will make them disappear even faster.

[KamaAina]

117. Not true in Uber's home of San Francisco

Twitter just moved in to great fanfare (and greater tax breaks ). Across town, Salesforce has quietly grown into a behemoth that just took over the city for its annual conference; they had to rent a cruise ship because all the hotels were booked!

[Cayenne]

120. How many does Twitter actually employ?

Compare that to a legacy employer similarly capitalized. Somebody compared Uber to GM; Uber is only slightly smaller but they employ less than a thousand while GM still over 20,000. The new companies take pains to keep their payroll small.

[Darb]

122. And all the average people are moving out.

Cannot afford to live with all the smartest hipsters in the world. The city is suffering. Too bad. On to Oakland and beyond.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

139. Uber users are ignorant, especially liberal Uber users

What’s really going on is the desire of businesses to chop wages and benefit costs while also limiting their vulnerability to lawsuits, which can happen when salaried employees are mistreated. The burden of economic risk is shifted even further onto workers, who lose the security and protections of the New-Deal-era social insurance programs that were created when long-term employment was the norm.

<snip>

rowing use of contingent workers (in “gigs”) came when capitalists sought to respond to gains by labor through the early 1970s, and in response to the victories capital won in the rise of the neoliberal era. Because contingent workers were usually not covered by union contracts or other legal safeguards, employers hired them to regain leverage over workers lost when unionized workers gained protection against unjust dismissal, and courts extended these protections to non-union workers under the “implicit contract” doctrine.

(full article)

http://ourfuture.org/20140528/cut-throat-capitalism-welcome-to-the-gig-economy

Unfortunately, liberals who support this libertarian economic model are too intellectually lazy to read this article because they're affraid of what they might find: they've been duped by the billionaire class just as their Republican counterparts have been for decades.

Meanwhile, Chicago cab drivers shut down service to both airports for 2 hours yesterday to protest Mayor Rahm Emmanuel's proposal to open the airports to Uber.

Follow the money:
Mayor Rahm Emmanuel is shilling for his multi-millionaire and billionaire cronies, his brother, Hollywood mogul Ari Emmanuel, and Amazon's Jeff Bezos, both of whom, among others, are heavily invested in Uber.

Full-Time Uber drivers are fools. One should read their complaints forum and lawsuit page. They're underinsured, responsible for their own maintenance (that's huge driving on Chicago roads), underwater on auto lease payments TO UBER, chasing an illusion that they'll make upto $5000/week as Uber has advertised. Do they even know Uber is in a furious race to replace them with self-driving cars?

There are 6 main reasons your Uber driver isn't driving a cab:

1. They're too lazy to take the city mandated chauffeur class and exam
2. They are reckless and have a terrible driving record and can't get a job driving a cab
3. They have DUIs
4. They can't pass a criminal background check
5. They can't pass drug tests
6. They can't pass a physical exam

[Recursion]

144. LOL you think cab drivers pass criminal background checks

That's hilarious.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

145. Obviously, none of this was covered during your training

That was a looooong ass post about how the gig economy is facilitating the race to the bottom espoused by paid #Ubertrolls, and all you come back with is an ignorant comment. Cab drivers take drug tests! As for the gig economy, tackle that.

Ever listen to WCPT? You know when paid shill call in to repeat the same talking points? Obviously, Uber has hired shills to Google Uber all day long and type pre-written scripts. When it comes to off script matter important to liberal matters, like the gig economy or class action lawsuit in California, in which 163,000 Uber drivers are suing the company over their business model, they don't respond and go right back to their script.

[Recursion]

149. It's not "160,000 drivers"

You should really research this case. 160,000 is the number of Uber drivers in California, ever. A fraction of them are eligible for participation in the class action suit. It will be interesting to see how that works out, particularly if the ruling also forces cab companies to make their drivers employees (sounds like the perfect outcome to me, personally).

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

150. Yes, that's how CLASS ACTION lawsuits work

EPIC FAIL

A REPRESENTATIVE GROUP takes Uber to court. The judge hears their case and determines whether it affects an individual or a handful of people or whether it affects an ENTIRE CLASS OF 160,000 UBER DRIVERS. The judge can also DISMISS the case at this point!

What did the judge rule? I'll tell you! The judge granted the law suit CLASS STATUS! It will proceed thusly.

That's your civics lesson for today, now read the article about the gig economy and respond. That's the tough one! Good luck!!

[Recursion]

151. But not for all 160,000

Like I said, you should research this case some. Anyone who started after 2014 waived class action arbitration and the judge ruled they cannot participate (this included one of the three original plaintiffs).

Now, the ruling could conceivably still affect all drivers, and I hope it does. Particularly if it's extended to cab companies.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

152. They taught you something at Uber University

OK, I'll accept your word, it won't apply to all 160,000 drivers. When did Uber start in California? A decade ago? So it won't apply to anyone who started last year or this year.

[Recursion]

153. Does it make you feel better to pretend people who disagree with you have to be paid to do so?

I mean, does it give you a greater sense of confidence or self-worth?

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

155. Your youth and naivety is glaring...

and after hours of defending your libertarian dream gig economy on a liberal website you suddenly got your feelings hurt and shut down.

Welcome to the internet.

I'm hoping when your Uber bubble burst you'll be grateful labor was there to keep wages above sustenance. But you won't be. You don't even see the connection between organized labor and your wages.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

156. Mayor's $65 million giveaway to $50 billion company

“The Mayor’s proposal is a sweetheart deal for Uber, a $50 billion enterprise that doesn’t need another giveaway, but a job-killer for hard-working Chicago cab drivers. When corporations like Uber provide the same service as licensed cabs but don’t play by the same rules, they undercut public safety and jobs. Last week, our union released a plan to raise $65 million a year by requiring Uber to follow all the same rules as hard-working cab drivers.”

[ibegurpard]

161. this one is all about private-sector solutions for everything

just do a bit of research.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

158. All this voluntary action has to stop!

Someone needs to inject a gun into these exchanges! Where do I sign to ensure a delegate of mine initiates force on these people who are interacting voluntarily?

[ibegurpard]

162. oh you like picking up the cost of the business?

while your employer gets the profits?
Have I got a job for you!

[TampaAnimusVortex]

163. No, I'm agreeing with you.

I think someone needs to intervene violently and suppress all this voluntary interaction. If they resist, then they only have themselves to blame for the violence brought down on them. Bring on the authorities to stop these obviously free interchanges.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

141. How does the cab industry work and how does Uber solve it?

Tremendous amount of Uber propaganda. Refusing rides is BUILT INTO the Uber business model!



Any, explain the cab industry and try to figure out how Uber refuses service to millions but many, like those here, don't even realize.

Part II
Why are you, a liberal, promoting a LIBERTARIAN business model that furthers the race to the bottom by replacing Full-Time jobs that allow cab drivers to raise a family (Oh no! Cab drivers families too!), with part-timers who are paid and treated like Walmart "associates."

Good Luck, my fellow liberal!

[KamaAina]

157. I'm hardly promoting it.

I posted an article critical of it.

[Sunlei]

147. Now we need an app to find other services that are overpriced on the commercial side.

[ibegurpard]

159. People are crazy to support or "work for" a company like this.

You have to bear the cost for the all of the expenses and they get a cut of the profits...
think about that for just a second.

[U4ikLefty]

164. The selfish attitudes on this thread illustrate why union membership has dwindled.

As long as they see an advantage for themselves they don't give a shit about anyone else.

They desperately try to defend their selfishness.

I think they are assholes with no empathy.

[JanMichael]

182. 100 percent in agreement. no empathy no sense no care no brain. nt

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

171. Uber promises $25/hr delivers under $3

Uber sells a fantasy, this is the reality.


Capital & Main: Why did you leave your job at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport to drive for Uber and Lyft?

Takele Gobena: I thought that I could earn a better income driving for these companies. Their ads led me to believe my pay would be $25 an hour.

Capital & Main: How does your airport job compare with working for Uber and Lyft?

Gobena: At the airport, I earned $9.47 an hour as a dispatcher and had health-care benefits. With Uber and Lyft, driving 37,000 miles in 2014, after all my expenses (vehicle financing, fueling, insuring and maintaining) I earn $2.64 an hour and have no health-care coverage if injured.

http://www.alternet.org/labor/im-making-only-264-hour-working-uber-driver

Colbert let their smug smarmy CEO get away with overstating their driver's real income. No one challenges their numbers so they get away with making crap up.

[KamaAina]

172. It's worse than it sounds.

Why did you leave your job at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport to drive for Uber and Lyft? ...

At the airport, I earned $9.47 an hour as a dispatcher and had health-care benefits.

Seatac, where Seattle-Tacoma International Airport is located, recently enacted a $15/hour minimum wage.

[DonCoquixote]

180. ad bad as Taxis can be

and as corrupt as unions themselves can be, they prevent a far greater evil: the ultra rich taking advantage of less regulation to exploit cheap labor and weaken barriers against their influence. That is true of Taxis, Schools, and Prisons.

[Teamster Jeff]

181. Uber is just one more below minimum wage job with no benefits nm

new normal don't ya know