NRA News

[kpete]

During the Defending Our America episode, co-host Del Wilber said, "When I was growing up, part of the curriculum at high schools was firearm safety and marksmanship. And we didn't have 'Columbines' or 'Newtowns' because kids were taught to respect firearms, they were taught how to handle them safely and taught what their purpose was for, and that's been long gone."

so there it is:
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/09/25/nra-news-commentary-school-shootings-happen-bec/205787

[krispos42]

1. That's silly. They commit then because of protruding pistol grips.

Duh.

[CTyankee]

2. blame the victim...

[shenmue]

51. Yeah

[Hoyt]

3. Well, nowadays dad's teach their kids how to kill with guns and indoctrinate them into gun culture.

?w=735&h=455

?w=640

It's not just the NRA involved in this crud.

[oneshooter]

4. So you are doing what to stop this?

besides posting your family photos on the net.

[Hoyt]

5. Well, you darn sure aren't doing anything but promoting guns in more places -- ONESHOOTER.

Bet you belong to NRA.

[oneshooter]

6. I have already admitted that I am a NRA member.

I teach Basic Pistol, Basic rifle, Basic Shotgun, Safety coerces, And advanced courses in all three disciplines. I am NRA certified and have been for over twenty years.

NOW what are you doing, besides posting your family pictures?

[Kingofalldems]

11. So what are you doing about your organization and it's overwhelming

support of republicans? And what about the board members?

[oneshooter]

44. The same as anyone, vote. n/t

[branford]

8. Would you kindly provide the links detailing any crimes or accidents

perpetrated by the children or adults in any of your earlier photos in this thread.

Despite your rantings, children have been safely exposed and trained in the use of firearms in the USA for centures. Participation in gun sports and hunting activities is commonplace, particularly in many areas of rural America, places where the Democratic party has shown notable disdain and effectively ceded to the Republicans. In fact, many of these firearm activities even peacefully occurred in public schools without incident for generations. Arguably, the lack of exposure and training with firearms at an early age explain childhood accidents, as firearms become taboo and therefore enticing, and children do not know how to handle them safely.

[Hoyt]

10. Many of the mass shooters were brought up in gun culture, as are many of the militia types.

Plenty of Randy Weavers out there raising their kids as killers and racists. Some of the Gungeoneers revere old Randy.

Indoctrinating kids into gun culture and teaching them to kill will silhouette targets, assault weapons, etc., is not my idea of good parenting. One can call is self-defense training, but it's not.

[branford]

13. So, excess verbiage aside, you don't in fact have any citations

demonstrating the children in your earlier photos were involved in any crime or accidents.

Somehow, I'm just not surprised...

[GGJohn]

16. Hoyt never provides any proof,

he just slings wild lies and allegations, along with insults.

[Hoyt]

27. I posted photos and anyone who isn't a gun promoter can see how gunz are marketed

to appeal to gunners' baser instincts and those into militias, racism, terrorism, etc. You can deny it like any attorney who represents gun fanciers, but most people get that the george zimmermans are guilty even if attorneys like you get them off.

[branford]

32. I'm reading a lot of words,

but none of them contains citations to any instances of the children or adults in the photos you earlier posted of having been involved in any firearm crime or accidents (or violent militias, racism, terrorism, etc.).

You also apparently can now read the minds and discern the emotions and motivations of anyone and everyone who owns a gun merely from a photograph, are an expert in federal and state self-defense jurisprudence, and know intimate details about my law practice, despite not knowing my identity. You are truly a legend in your own mind...

[louis-t]

34. Uh, second photo looks like the

poor girl that killed her instructor.

edit: By golly, it is!

[GGJohn]

14. Some of the Gungeoneers revere old Randy.

Why do you continually lie about pro 2A members here?
Why don't you post a link to anyone here who reveres Randy Weaver?

[Hoyt]

33. Here's one of many threads where gunners expressed their support for the racist gun trafficker.

Many of those are gone now. Most have returned, though, as gungeoneers are aware.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2170059

[friendly_iconoclast]

35. "Randy Weaver was a racist scumbag" is an 'expression of support' to you?

For the disinterested reader, here's some more 'expressions of support' from that thread:

"Have you never heard the phrase "A pox on both your houses", Hoyt?

Try as you might, you can't make history binary.

The Weavers were undoubtedly nasty pieces of work, but their faults did not
transform the Feds into blameless knights in shining armor.

"Weaver was scum..."

[Hoyt]

50. So you cherry pick one posr, even that person is on Weaver's side.

[GGJohn]

53. I'm still waiting for a link that proves that pro 2A members here support Weaver.

Do you or do you not have it?

[friendly_iconoclast]

98. To be blunt, Hoyt: You say many things that aren't true- and this is one of them

Post a link demonstrating that they support Weaver, or it's bullshit.

[GGJohn]

48. You just can't help yourself can you.

Where in that post does he support Weaver?
Why do you continue to lie about DU members?

[TeddyR]

45. Is "gun culture"

Responsible for all the felons killing people in D.C. and Baltimore and Chicago? Or maybe the NRA is responsible for those murders? How about we blame the murderers for the murders they commit instead of deflecting the blame to an inanimate object that will sit motionless for all eternity until some person uses it.

By the way, which "Gungeoneers revere old Randy"? Specifics here, since you are making accusations against fellow DUers that I suspect you cannot support.

[oneshooter]

46. You mean like this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_silhouette_shooting

http://www.riflesilhouette.com/SilhouetteVideos/Intro-Video/RifleSilhouette-Intro-640.3gp


Yes I have a full set of these silhouette targets both for rimfire and centerfire.

[Art_from_Ark]

60. Here's a link to the accident-about-to-happen in the second picture

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x24o7ca_nine-year-old-accidentally-kills-gun-instructor_news

[GGJohn]

9. Ok, you posted some pictures.

What does that prove?

[Hoyt]

12. Daddies teach their kids to kill, carry gunz, and worse.

[GGJohn]

15. They do?

I suppose you have evidence that the people in those pictures do just that?

[Lee-Lee]

20. Since you've admitted on here to being a robber

Using your logic what, exactly, did your daddy teach you?

And for those who don't understand Hoyts irrational responses around guns, consider he's admitted to having been a robber before, so had to be in constant fear of an armed victim as his stole from them. That may help you understand.

[Hoyt]

28. I did not admit that, some folks like you can't read in context.

I responded to a pack of gun fanciers who said it's OK to blast away and endanger innocent people when a robber locks the door of a store because they are about to kill everyone. I responded to folks blinded by their gun love, that "when I was a robber," I locked the doors so I could control the situation and not have to kill people. A high percentage of gun fanciers were too obtuse to get it. Apparently you are in that group and should probably have your gunz confiscated for lack of insight.

[friendly_iconoclast]

36. Quoth Hoyt: "As a former robber, I locked the door to keep people out, especially police."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=45338

Those are your words, Hoyt. What context are we missing?

[Hoyt]

37. Glad you get it. You too are in that crowd that lacks perception.

Please be careful when you strap a gun on to go to Chuck E Cheese.

I do appreciate the fact you boys can quote me.

[friendly_iconoclast]

38. I find your concern for workplace safety to be on a par with your command of English

Also, I do not own a gun, so we can add "remote sensing" to your list of failures...

[Hoyt]

39. I know, you are just a vicarious gun fancier and gun promoter.

[friendly_iconoclast]

40. Odium from one who claims magical powers and defames other DUers carries no sting

[friendly_iconoclast]

41. Were you a robber, or were you not? If you were prevaricating then, why believe you now?

[Hoyt]

42. You aren't going to agree with anyone who doesn't worship gunz. eom

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. Correction: I'm not going to agree with anyone whose word can't be trusted. eom

[Hoyt]

52. I guess the NRA is more your style.

[GGJohn]

54. I guess less than truthful posts are more your style. eom.

[DashOneBravo]

56. "So you could control the situation."

Did you really post that?

So I guess everyone is supposed to just sit and wait. We should trust a robber that locks the door and think he isn't going to rape / kill someone?

How many people did you traumatize?

[Hoyt]

57. Better than every paranoid gun fancier carrying a gun ready to shoot and play cowboy.

[GGJohn]

58. And you continue to slander firearm owners.

So typical of you.

[Hoyt]

61. They deserve it, they are selfish people that value their need to fondle weapons over society's good

Your 4 safes full of guns and ammo, and promotion of guns, are good examples.

[GGJohn]

68. And the lies keep piling up.

[DashOneBravo]

59. It's a trust issue

Last edited Sun Sep 27, 2015, 01:47 AM - Edit history (1)

And anyone who robs people can't be trusted to not kill or rape. They're already breaking the law, they don't deserve any trust.

How is anyone supposed to know when the ones robbing stores decide to start raping grandmothers?

[Hoyt]

62. How is anyone supposed to know the yahoo with a gun on his hip

in line at the theater, is not a racist terrorist, seething with anger and ready to kill because someone has their phone on during previews or something equally stupid?

[branford]

65. You could pose more challenging questions.

First, I would note that simply being a racist is not illegal in the USA, and people who are indeed racists do not lose any constitutional rights, regardless of whether the issue is guns, free speech, religion, etc. Also, being a racist, while loathsome, does not make someone a terrorist under the law, or provide justification for violent self-defense or criminal complaint.

More importantly, let's compare the readily available data. How many people openly (or concealed) carrying firearms have killed people in line at a theater, regardless of the reason? In fact, among the 80-100+ lawful gun owners in the USA, the numbers are so statistically insignificant that is approaches zero, and the reason why it was so newsworthy when it happened. In fact, the levels of crime, not just gun crime, among those with firearm carry permits are demonstrably lower than the overall national average and even lower than law enforcement officers.

Conversely, feel free to examine FBI or BJS crime statistics to see how many killers and rapists had previous robbery or other violent felony convictions. Such recidivism and increasing levels of crime are sadly commonplace and indisputable.

Accordingly, it takes little to no intellectual capacity to understand why someone simply carrying a gun, but breaking no other laws (and open or concealed carry alone is definitely not "brandishing," or disorderly conduct, harassment, etc.), can generally be trusted, yet robbers and thieves will not be given the benefit of any doubt. Such simple understanding has been implemented for ages in our criminal code and related self-defense jurisprudence in both liberal and conservative states and federal jurisdictions.

[Lee-Lee]

7. It won't reduce acts of violence- that's an issue totally unrelated but it will

reduce accidents. Teaching safe handling and safety rules for firearms is a common sense move that nobody would oppose unless they are totally out of whack with irrational fear of guns. To insist we not do so would to be advocating leaving the only knowledge most people have of guns what they get delivered by Hollywood and the gaming industry- probably where all those with the huge irrational opposition to safety education got their knowledge.

[NickB79]

24. Bingo.

I shoot a Daisy pellet gun with my daughter in the yard. Always supervised. That's all she'll get to shoot until she's 10yr old. And I have taught her safe handling techniques that she follows, even with a pellet gun.

I did shoot my hunting rifle with her around, once. To convey it's power, I shot a milk jug full of water, and it exploded. Then I told her she's to never touch Daddy's big guns (they're always unloaded and locked anyway, but still).

We've also had discussions about what to do if she finds a gun at a friend's house (don't touch, tell a grownup, and tell me too).

[Rex]

17. Respect? How about fear? If only the NRA did not pimp firearms like they are candy.

But YA you go ahead and be huge festering hypocrites NRA.

[branford]

21. How are the NRA hypocrites?

There's nothing to suggest they don't expose their children to firearms or provide them training, or that their children don't voluntarily participate and enjoy firearm sports or hunting.

There are certainly ample reasons to criticize the NRA or oppose their positions concerning firearms, but they appear to practice what they preach with their own children and communities.

I also don't understand the myopic focus on the NRA. They represent only about 5 out of 80-100+ millions gun owners in the USA, and their financial contributions to elected officials are not nearly as large as people believe, with the most relevant figures being publicly available. In fact, if the Colorado recall elections are any guide, with Bloomberg and his allies outspending the NRA 6 to1 and still losing, gun control organizations have far more resources than gun rights proponents.

The power of the NRA lies with actually getting people to the polls on a very contentious issue, and if they didn't exist, some other organization would fill the void, such as the Second Amendment Foundation, the organization actually behind for the Heller and McDonald Supreme Court decisions, and many others.

The NRA is simply a convenient boogeyman and excuse for the judicial, electoral and popular failures of the gun control movement.

[Rex]

22. Because it always has an extreme right wing message and never changes course.

As the OP is a perfect example of. Any normal person can see the NRA is a radical organization. Maybe it was not at one time, but it is now.

If hunters care about their organization, they will take it back from the RWing preppers. Otherwise, they will get the same amount of scorn.

Such is life.

[branford]

25. You didn't answer my question or explain your earlier post.

I didn't inquire if, why and how you hate the NRA. Although I certainly have no particular love for the organization and am not a member, I don't personally believe the readily available evidence suggests they're nearly as power as you believe and are just used as a convenient excuse for gun control's political failures.

You specifically accused the NRA of being hypocrites concerning their beliefs about guns and children. As the NRA leadership and much of their membership do indeed expose their own children to firearms, including training, sports, and hunting, I don't know how you can claim they are hypocrites.

The NRA may be many things, but they appear to practice what they preach.

[Rex]

26. Yes they practice RWing messaging and propaganda, not my fault if you ignore my words.

They pretend guns are like toys to kids, then turn around and say it is kids fault for gun violence. Only a moron would believe that statement. Adults teach their kids safety, the NRA pushes a RWing message this is wrong and bad for society.

The NRA is a hate group. Sorry if you did not know that.

[branford]

31. A belief, even if true, that the NRA is a "hate group"

or right-wing, does not make them hypocrites. The word has a meaning.

It's also one thing to criticize the organization for their actual clear and stated beliefs and goals, which you are certainly entitled to disagree with or even loathe, and quite another to invent, embellish, or suggest strawman arguments to support your position. If you need to do the latter, it exposes the deficiencies in your own positions and is not in any way persuasive.

The NRA certainly does not consider guns to be toys. A simple review of their well-known, highly-publicized and very long-running Eddie Eagle program demonstrates their perspective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Eagle

The NRA is also the country's largest gun safety and training organization and considered the gold standard in these areas. NRA training and certification is often required by law enforcement and even the jurisdictions that have mandated safety and proficiency training as part of their permitted and carrying laws.

The NRA is also a single issue advocacy group - firearm rights. They have and continue to support certain Democrats. They are generally considered to be right-wing only because much of our Party has recently become hostile to gun owners, many of them otherwise (previously) loyal Democrats, particularly many union members in the South and Midwest, and the Republicans have unsurprisingly capitalized on this situation.

[Hoyt]

55. You conviently forget the NRA's political arm explicitly running ads to defeat Obama. It's a right

wing organization dominated by greedy, racist, warmongering right wing leadership that reflects their members.

[branford]

63. First, I "forgot" nothing, and actually explained -why- the NRA-ILA

ran ads against Democrats. If Republicans advocated similar gun control policies, the RNA would run against them as well. The RNA and the Republican Party are often allies because our Party practically pushed them together. If you examine the history of the NRA and Democratic positions on gun control, you'll realize that this certainly wasn't always the case.

However, even if the NRA is "a right wing organization dominated by greedy, racist, warmongering right-wing leadership that reflects their members," that alone does not make them hypocrites, Rex's allegation that he (and you) have yet to substantiate. Again, words actually have meaning and definition.

The NRA advocates exposing children to firearms and providing age-appropriate instruction and training to improve both individual and public safety. You certainly may (and apparently do) believe this is a bad idea or worse. However, by all indications, the leadership and much of the membership of the NRA do indeed expose their own children to firearms and provide ample training, sport and hunting opportunities. Accordingly, the NRA seems to clearly practice what they preach and are not hypocrites on this issue.

Do gun controllers so lack legitimate and supportable criticims of NRA (and general gun rights) policy beliefs that they're forced to resort to little more than personal insults, accusations of partisanship, strawman arguments, and actually redefining the English language, in order to compete?

Do you and others have so few substantive and persuasive ideas to offer in opposition to NRA beliefs concerning childhood firearms safety and training, such as their Eddie Eagle program, that vague and unsupported claims of "hypocrisy" are the best you can muster?

It's no wonder ever increasing numbers of Americans support gun rights and oppose restrictions, and gun laws are generally liberalizing across the nations all while crime rates have substantially dropped.

[Hoyt]

64. Never said it makes them "hypocrites." You are the one stuck on that.

The Eddie Eagle program is just a way to indoctrinate kids into the right wing NRA agenda. Led by the likes of Grover Norquist, Ollie North, John Bolton, (gun lovers/promotersl apologists favorite racist) Ted Nugent, gun profiteers, etc., it's hard for me to understand any support among Democrats and liberals.

[branford]

66. My entire discussion with Rex that you joined concerned purported NRA hypocrisy.

Apparently, like flies to honey, you cannot resist offering your general opinions about the NRA, no matter how irrelevant or unrelated to the actual discussion. You are the one stuck on that.

However, if you like, let's further discuss the Eddie Eagle program.

There's certainly much to criticize about the NRA (and virtually all other major gun control and gun rights organizations), but that doesn't include Eddie Eagle, unless you and others are so blinded by impotent rage concerning firearms that you would sacrifice actual childhood safety as you tilt at the windmills of radical firearm controls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Eagle

The program is administered in schools by trained law enforcement officers with the help of a volunteer. The program trains children to avoid causing harm when they encounter firearms, through an easily remembered litany:

Stop — This first step is crucial. Stopping first allows your child the time he or she needs to remember the rest of the safety instructions
Don't touch — A firearm that is not touched or disturbed is unlikely to fire and otherwise endanger your child or other people.
Run away — This removes the temptation to touch the firearm as well as the danger that another person may negligently cause it to fire.
Tell a grown-up — Children should seek a trustworthy adult, neighbor, relative or teacher – if a parent or guardian is not available.

The curriculum includes workbooks and a short video that re-enforces the instructions. The NRA, which also sponsors training for adults in safe gun-handling, developed this program in response to news stories about deaths and injuries of youths by negligent gunfire and released the program in 2003. Anyone can request a sample of the classroom materials at no cost via the Eddie Eagle webpage.

If a free program that teaches young children to not touch firearms and immediately seek a trustworthy adult is the NRA's "way to indoctrinate kids into the right wing NRA agenda," it's no wonder the NRA has over 5 million members and growing, and much of our Party's plans for gun control, sorry... "gun safety," have gone nowhere.

[Hoyt]

72. 5 million right wing, racist members and leadership to match.

[GGJohn]

76. Oh, so you know every member of the NRA?

What other wild claims are you going to make?

[Hoyt]

85. Here are just a few examples of those who the members elect for leadership positions.

?w=460










In 2009, Sarah Palin nominated the former NRA vice president to be Alaska's attorney general, but lawmakers passed on him after he was accused of making homophobic and sexist comments.




We'll end with racist Big Jim Porter the currently elected Prez of the NRA.

[GGJohn]

86. So all 5 million members voted for them?

You did say all 5 million were racist RW'ers.
Are you going to continue to make up facts?

[Hoyt]

87. If one were not a racist, right winger (or at least sympathetic), why belong to the NRA.

[GGJohn]

89. Maybe because the NRA offers great safety programs?

Maybe because they're the premier gun rights organization? Maybe because a lot of shooting ranges require an NRA membership to use their facilities?
Maybe to piss of people like you?
Again, how do you know that all 5 million members are RW racist assholes?

[Hoyt]

90. Sounds like the excuse candidates give if they are caught speaking to the KKK or something.

[GGJohn]

92. Wow!!!!

That's some deep thinking there.

Now, how do you know that all 5 million members are RW racists?
Do you know them all? Have you polled all 5 million members to determine if they really are RW racists?
Or is this just another typical Hoytism? A claim based on zero facts?

[Hoyt]

93. Look GG, if one belongs to the Ayran Nation or something, they are racist. Don't see much

difference in the NRA with their confederate flag loving leadership -- which happens to be elected by the membership. There might be some members who love gunz so much that they tolerate the right wing racism at the core of the organization. You can rationalize your membership like that if you need to. I don't need to, and won't.

[GGJohn]

94. Another factless Hoytism.

Not all NRA members are qualified to vote, I believe one has to be a dues paying member for a certain amount of years before they can vote.
And here's another factless Hoytism, I don't belong to the NRA, never have, never will.

So, have you polled all the members to determine if they're RW racists?

[hack89]

88. It must chap your ass that a moron like Ted Nugent is kicking your butt

What does it say about the leadership of the gun control movement that they can't beat a bunch of idiots?

[Hoyt]

96. You must like teddy.

[hack89]

97. With President Obama and other Dem leaders looking out for gun owners

I don't need Nugent. Because he still is a moronic asshole.

Why is the leadership of the gun control movement so inept that they can't beat an idiot like Nugent?

[Rex]

82. They love them some Ted Cruz!

The NRA is an insult to actual hunters, like Ted Cruz is an insult to the human race.

[Rex]

67. Waste of time, some people here don't care about reality. If they did they would know the NRA

is NOW controlled by RWing hate mongers. I don't waste my time feeding NRA apologists.

[GGJohn]

69. Wow!!!

You're saying this to Hoyt? One of the most reality challenged members when it comes to the issue of firearms?
Nice company you keep there.

[Rex]

77. I'll take his company over a bunch of people that covet lethal weapons over human life.

Gun humpers are pathetic people in no way associated with actual hunters. Reality check time. EOM.

[Hoyt]

73. +1.

[Rex]

78. Gun humpers are fucked up people, they love a killing machine over their own childrens life.

They are mentally ill, thank goodness none of them post here!

[branford]

80. Usage of "gun humpers," together with allegations of mental illness

and implications that those who support gun rights (the majority of the American population) are veritable child killers.

It's a trifecta of gun control juvenility, self-righteous and the complete absence of substantive, no less persuasive, argument, all in just two sentences! That's quite a dubious accomplishment.

Does it even occur to you why support for gun rights and opposition to restrictions is steadily increasing in every reliable poll, even post-Sandy Hook, all while gun laws are liberalized and gun rights are expanded by the courts?

If it hasn't been said a thousand time already, gun control advocates are their own worst enemies.

[Rex]

81. Interesting you identify with what I typed.

So you self identify as a gun humper? That is the most pathetic thing I've ever read here.

[branford]

83. I often post on the topic of firearm rights and have repeatedly discussed my background.

For your reference, I have never owned a firearm in my life because I personally never felt the need or desire.

I consider myself very lucky, and would never deny the right to others. I'm also a born and bred New Yorker, litigation attorney living and working in the City, and previously worked at the USDOJ, National Institute of Justice, researching issues that included gun violence. Gun bans would not affect me personally and I'm informed professionally on the topic.

I find terms and accusations like "gun humper" and "ammosexual" amusing in their absurdity, and evidence of lack of maturity and intellectual rigor and persuasion skills. They are playground insults that mean nothing and convince no one of anything except the deficiencies of those adults who employ the terms.

However, by your standards, I imagine I'm more of a "closet gun humper" or maybe "ammo-curious." I'll just have to live with the shame...

In any event, as you and those like you hurl gratuitous personal insults, refuse to engage in substantive discussion, and blame all your innumerable gun control failures on the NRA boogeyman, I need only sit back comfortably and watch as gun rights liberalize with the ever increasing support of the electorate, our elected representatives, and the courts.

[oneshooter]

84. So I should stop running my safety classes, because of "NRA"

NONE of the other highly hyped "Gun Safety" groups has ANY program anywhere like it. NONE.

[Rex]

18. Oh and PS...school shooting don't happen because of children that is the dumbest

shit I've ever seen printed. I pity anyone that agrees with that statement. They must be living in a world of blind ignorance and loving it.

Crazy NRA members are why school shootings happen...you know those people...ADULTS.

THe NRA is such a POS organization. Pimping guns to kids like they are candy.

[Glassunion]

19. I'm floored. That's like saying rape happens because women don't respect penises.

It's absurd on its face.

IBTL

[Paladin]

23. Same mindset at work. Well said. (nt)

[villager]

30. That's the "I'm the NRA" mindset...

...that we've all come to know and love.

[sarisataka]

29. I would venture

The causevis children who are not taught to deal with anger, a system that accepts bullying as inevitable so punishes the bullys and the victims and asults who negligently leave firearms unsecured.

Sadly schools hide behind zero tolerance policies rather than address the issues.

There are some programs to encourage safe storage and provide materials but they are vehemently opposed by gun control groups.

[oneshooter]

47. That is because they are gun"control" not gun safety.

[spanone]

49. nice try nra.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Dont call me Shirley]

70. WRONG again NRA. Bullying is what causes school shootings.

[branford]

71. Interesting.

I shall therefore assume that you believe the proper prophylactic safety and security policies to prevent the still statistically very rare school shooting is more and better anti-bullying programs, and not additional gun control laws?

If that's the case, you'll likely have the support of many gun rights proponents, and possibly even the NRA, as it does not in any way conflict with their perspective or infringe on firearm ownership.

[Dont call me Shirley]

75. I totally support strict gun control. And effective anti-bullying campaigns.

[branford]

79. I know.

As I've routinely indicated in this thread and elsewhere, for many gun control advocates, the perfect is the enemy of the good.

It's the reason why people like you in Congress and state legislatures always pile on the gun regulations into otherwise potentially worthwhile anti-bulling or similar legislation or programs, or oppose other worthwhile efforts because you don't like their sponsors, and nothing gets ever gets passed.

It explains Congress' failure to pass universal background check legislation since it was offered with another useless "assault weapon" ban and magazine limits, why MDA recently opposed a very successful gun lock program just because it was offered by a conservative group actually trusted by gun owners, and why many here on DU get the vapors over the Eddie Eagle program, which actually that teaches children not to touch guns, simply because it's from the NRA.

Gun rights proponents need barely lift a finger when gun rights advocates so often politically shoot themselves in the foot.

[Dont call me Shirley]

91. I'm not in Congress or the legislature. Why are you picking on me? We are on the same side...

WTF?!

[branford]

95. I was referring to elected representatives, just like many here on DU,

who use every instance where common agreement could potentially be found to address underlying causes of crime and accidents, and also use it to advance gun control that isn't even directly connected to the primary issue, thereby eroding trust and making compromise impossible (e.g., universal background checks and national assault weapon bans would not have prevented Sandy Hook as Lanza stole the weapons and CT already had an assault weapon ban). Many of these same people also vehemently object to successful firearm safety policies and programs, such as free gun locks or the NRA's Eddie Eagle, simply because they are run by groups that refuse to support a gun control agenda, usually in an effort to end "gun culture."

If you're not one of these people, I apologize for the misunderstanding. However, the blatant political opportunism here and among much of our Party is so rampant, and true moderates or actual gun safety advocates so rare, that certain assumptions are usually justified in these charged discussions, as is more than evident by some of the comments in this thread.

[Dont call me Shirley]

100. I hate guns, period, personal thing. But we must have a comprehensive program to address

the staggering rise of gun violence and accidents. Mental healthcare, gun safety and education, gun insurance, gun control, good paying jobs, community unity, etc...

[branford]

102. We don't have a "staggering rise of gun violence and accidents."

In fact, we've nearly cut our crime rate in half over the last few decades, all while tens of millions of more guns were lawfully sold and owned and firearms ownership and carry laws significantly liberalized across most of the country (even before the Heller and McDonald Supreme Court decisions).

Of course, you can hate or love guns for whatever reason you want, but increased media availability and perception and anecdotes don't substitute for facts and statistics. Further, I would support programs to improve mental healthcare, the economy, community solidarity, irrespective of the firearm issue, as well as programs that actually improve gun "safety," rather than transparent attempts at incremental bans or efforts to change "gun culture."

Knee-jerk support for any policy the seems to be "anti-gun," without regard for whether it would actually do anything or targets firearm owners who are already law abiding and do not statistically contribute to gun crime or accidents, is exactly the type of attitude that destroys trust and ensures no compromises are achievable that might actually improve gun safety.

[Dont call me Shirley]

103. Here...

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-seek-sweatsuit-clad-man-shot-bystander-brooklyn-article-1.2242439

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/01/us/murder-rates-rising-sharply-in-many-us-cities.html

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/04/01/chicago-murders-shootings/70787110/

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/07/07/the-rise-of-gun-violence-as-a-public-health-issue

[branford]

105. There has been a small spike this year in some areas, but the overall crime rate

is still about half of what it was from decades past (as actually discussed in all your citations). That's precisely why the recent spike is so newsworthy. I would also note that much of the increase has sadly been seen in Democratically-controlled cities and states (e.g. Chicago, Baltimore, New York, etc.), most with very strict gun control, and the sudden and recent increases have not been shown to have any demonstrable link to the tens of millions of new guns and liberalized gun laws over the last few decades.

What we do have today is 24 hour sensationalized news that caters to our every bias, and thus some perceive an increase in gun crime and accidents. You could cite a hundred articles about certain terrible crimes, but the hard data and statistics do not lie. Feel free to review them yourself at the FBI and Bureau of Justice Statistics websites.

[friendly_iconoclast]

107. "(H)ard data and statistics do not lie. Feel free to review them yourself at the FBI...websites":

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr

The Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program has been the starting place for law enforcement executives, students of criminal justice, researchers, members of the media, and the public at large seeking information on crime in the nation. The program was conceived in 1929 by the International Association of Chiefs of Police to meet the need for reliable uniform crime statistics for the nation. In 1930, the FBI was tasked with collecting, publishing, and archiving those statistics.

Today, four annual publications, Crime in the United States, National Incident-Based Reporting System, Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted, and Hate Crime Statistics are produced from data received from over 18,000 city, university/college, county, state, tribal, and federal law enforcement agencies voluntarily participating in the program. The crime data are submitted either through a state UCR Program or directly to the FBI’s UCR Program.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr-publications#Crime

Crime in the United States

An annual publication in which the FBI compiles the volume and rate of violent and property crime offenses for the nation and by state. Individual law enforcement agency data are also provided for those contributors supplying 12 months complete offense data. This report also includes arrest, clearance, and law enforcement employee data. Use the new online UCR Data Tool to research crime statistics for the nation, by state, and by individual law enforcement agency.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-january-june-2014/preliminary-semiannual-uniform-crime-report-january-june-2014

Preliminary Semiannual Uniform Crime Report, January-June 2014

Preliminary figures indicate that law enforcement agencies throughout the nation showed an overall decrease of 4.6 percent in the number of violent crimes brought to their attention for the first 6 months of 2014 when compared with figures reported for the same time in 2013. The violent crime category includes murder, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. The number of property crimes in the United States from January to June of 2014 decreased 7.5 percent when compared with data for the same time period in 2013. Property crimes include burglary, larceny-theft, and motor vehicle theft. Arson is also a property crime, but data for arson are not included in property crime totals due to fluctuations in reporting. Figures for 2014 indicate that arson decreased 6.5 percent when compared with 2013 figures for the same time period.

[Eleanors38]

74. To the hosts: Why is this in GD? Are we still under a Rolling Exception for guns?

If you want gun discussion in GENERAL DISCUSSION all the time, then state so. Progressive DUers who support 2A are ready and willing to go where the discussion goes, but CONSISTENT TOS rules would be appreciated. Thank you.

[Hoyt]

101. Every time you post, whether in GD, LBN, Obituraries, etc., you are promoting gunz by the

reference to gunz in your User Name. Why do you keep posting about TOS violations? Jeeez, your User Name -- and that of some of your gun buddies, similarly promoting lethal weapons -- is an abuse and affront to DUers who don't worship the dang things.

[Eleanors38]

104. Ah, Hoyt. Get over it. BTW, where did the OP go?

[Hoyt]

106. Why don't you get over OP's about guns, especially considering all your posts reference gunz.

[Eleanors38]

108. Oh, fiddle dee-dee.

[Mister Ed]

99. When I was a kid, one of those well-trained youths brought her rifle to school & killed her teacher.

I was only in fifth grade at the time. A girl over at the high school, who was a trained markswoman, an experienced competitor on a shooting team, well-versed in firearm safety, etc., etc., brought her rifle to school one day. No one was surprised to see her with it, since she was so well-known as a sportswoman. They were sure surprised when she used it to kill one of her teachers, though.

A few years later, when I was a sophomore, my biology teacher told our class about it. She had fired at him as well, but she had deliberately placed the shot way over his head. She later told the police she didn't kill him 'cuz he was nice.