General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRussia has started bombing ISIS/coordinating with Syrian gov.
We were training about a dozen (a dozen???) anti ISIS fighters... Russia has launched its first airstrikes, and moved long range bombers into southern Russian bases. Another angle: Russia is friendly with Al-Assad and definitely will try to keep him in charge, or at the very least a like-minded replacement.
To me this looks like we just sat on our hands for too long. I do NOT want US ground troops in Syria, but we could have done a LOT more to combat ISIS than train a few dozen locals on how to shoot straight. ISIS has been committing humane atrocities and destroying world heritage sites for way too long. Now, I guess I have to root for Putin to take out the ISIS trash, even if it means he will keep Al-Assad in power.
My rant is over, I'd like to hear others thoughts on this situation...
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/30/politics/russia-syria-airstrikes-isis/index.html
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)This is the best of both worlds.
Someone beats the crap out of ISIS, and we are not responsible for the inevitable power vacuum induced catastrophic aftermath and/or prop up of a dictator.
polly7
(20,582 posts)destruction of Iraq.
How hypocritical.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7215501
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)the hypocrisy.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Let the Russians have the quagmire.
polly7
(20,582 posts)the PNAC hit list. Who mentioned Obama?
At least Russia is trying to stop the death and destruction caused by the west. 'Let them have the quagmire' - what about western responsibility in causing it, funding it, and along with our 'Allies' using ISIS while at the same time pretending to want them destroyed?
You seem quite flippant about all of this ............... do the hundreds of thousands maimed and killed and tens of thousands trying to flee bother you at all? The little 3 y/o lying dead on the beach and thousands of others drowned - 'let Russia deal with the quagmire'. Typical.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I love how, for instance, you have somehow made me responsible for Syria and Iraq and the deaths therein after my initial point was not wanting to be involved in another war and when I protested the Iraq war.
The illogical contortions that you have engaged in to get there are quite stunning.
No, "The West" is not responsible for Iraq. The Bush administration is responsible for Iraq. For starters, outside of the UK, most of "The West" told the Bush administration to go jump in a lake.
Outside of the use of an as yet uninvented machine to time travel back and prevent the election of George W. Bush, there is little anyone alive can do right now to change what is happening in Syria and Iraq.
The best thing the US can do is to not create further problems. If Russia wants to involve itself in a situation that external actors cannot resolve, let them.
polly7
(20,582 posts)paint the west as innocent in all of this misery and suffering while getting in as much red baiting as possible.
I know that you don't care about the deaths of small children, so I didn't expect an answer to that.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)........... and as always, disgusting.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)to mean something else.
polly7
(20,582 posts)it's making light of suffering and horror and death - especially children that disgusts me.
Go ahead and laugh at me, steven - do you think that bothers me one single fuck?
uhnope
(6,419 posts)West bad...Gaddafi was good. We know your schtick.
Is Assad good now too, because he's fighting the "west" and Putin is on his side???? Please answer. I need another sick laugh
polly7
(20,582 posts)You try so, so hard. I'm going to get teeny little medals for every time you bring up big bad Putin when it comes to the horror created in the ME. How fucking sick and sad is it that the horror they have suffered, and are suffering, is such a laugh for you.
The Wicked War on Syria
by Rick Sterling / September 29th, 2015
Regarding the so-called peaceful protesters, in fact, there was a violent element from the start. In Deraa in March 2011 several police were killed. In the original capital of the revolution, Homs, a very credible eye-witness reported armed demonstrators initiating the violence.
Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/09/the-wicked-war-on-syria/
uhnope
(6,419 posts)because he is opposed by "the West" and because he is buddies with Russia?
polly7
(20,582 posts)I said he was a leader, hate him / like him... or not, who used his country's own resources to support the people of Libya and help all of Africa.
Syria was on the '7 countries in 5 years' list - did you forget about that? Awful selective memory if you have, eh?
Here is exactly what I wrote of Gaddafi. Read it and weep.
Exposed: The "Humanitarian" War In Libya
Check this out - 'The Humanitarian War' = http://www.laguerrehumanitaire.fr/english It's horrifying.
A bunch of LIES submitted to the ICC ..... by the UN - who got their 'numbers and crimes' from the NTC Prime Minister - 'word to ear'. Pages and pages redacted.
No Evidence? No Problem!!
How the CIA Used "Libyan Expatriates" To Engineer Consent For Regime Change
One of the main sources for the claim that Qaddafi was killing his own people is the Libyan League for Human Rights (LLHR), an organization linked to the International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH). On Feb. 21, 2011, LLHR General Secretary Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir initiated a petition in collaboration with the organization U.N. Watch and the National Endowment for Democracy. This petition was signed by more than 70 NGOs.
Then a few days later, on Feb. 25, Dr. Bouchuiguir went to the U.N. Human Rights Council in order to expose the allegations concerning the crimes of Qaddafis government. In July 2011 we went to Geneva to interview Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir.
"How to circumvent international law and justice 101." - originally published by http://laguerrehumanitaire.fr
A film by Julien Teil
Official Website:
http://laguerrehumanitaire.fr
Official web:
http://thehumanitarianwar.com
Official TV:
http://laguerrehumanitaire-film.rutube.ru/
Videos now here (I watched them on the original site when all of it was happening and posted these here at DU) http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29428.htm
Must watch videos, the western trained NTC 'Prime Minister' - 'word to ear!' was the source of the 'data (all unofficial and lies, of course) that led to the UN resolution.
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What you don't know about the Libyan crisis:
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The horror of Libya - to fulfill the PNAC objective of overthrowing yet another country. "7 countries in 5 years!" This was NO "Humanitarian Intervention", and certainly not for all those migrants Qaddafi had allowed in over decades, Qaddafi loyalists and others who were raped, tortured, mutilated, hung, burned to death .... all known of by the NATO 'humanitarian team'.
It was a bullshit, self-serving, western funded and backed coup against yet another sovereign nation not yet indebted to the IMF and controlling its own resources, not to mention not allowing U.S. bases 'Africom' into all of Africa.
Some of these links don't work anymore, but read and discover just what a sham this was and why.
The Untold Story in Libya
Posted by polly7 in General Discussion
Tue Oct 18th 2011, 10:06 AM
In May 2010, Libya was voted on to the UN Human Rights Council by a huge majority. The UN Watch's campaign to remove Libya from the Human Rights Council began immediately.
In March, 2011, a report, containing positive quotes from UN diplomatic delegations in many countries, was due to be presented by the UN Human Rights Council, leading to a Resolution commending Libya's progress in a wide aspect of human rights (listed in the article). March 19, 2011, the attack on Libya began.
Libya was one of only five countries without a Rothschild model central bank, Quaddafi openly discussed, in 2009, the nationalization of US, UK, Germany, Spain, Norway, Canada and Italy's oil companies, switching to the gold dinar - a single African currency that would serve as an alternative to the U.S. dollar and allow African nations to share the wealth. Libya has an abundance of water - Gaddafis Great Man-Made River Project project offers limitless amounts of water for Libyans and would allow them to be totally self-sufficient. In the near-future, water will be the next resource equated with money and power, other countries may be dependent on its reserves. A self-sufficient, dictator-ruled nation with control over some of the worlds most precious resource waves a big red warning flag.
In 2010 Gaddafi made a motion to the UN General Assembly to investigate the circumstances of the invasion of Iraq. He was also wasting the west's ....... 'libya's' oil on free education, housing, tolerance of immigrants, raising the standard of living in Africa, lowering infant mortality while raising life expectancy.
Many of these things are completely similar to what we learned of Iraq.
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Yes, simply put, Nato's member nations are trying to steer back Libya Central Bank into the mainstream financial structure, under the watching eyes of the World Bank and the International Monetary Funds, to provide (reconstruction) funds to Libya with hefty interests payments - and transform a country which was free of debts into a heavily indebted country - as done everywhere else in sub-Saharan African countries.
http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/graphs...
http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/arcvol...
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From a 'no fly zone to all out bombing of targets called out by rebels'. NATO's high-precision bombing preceeded 'rebel' incursions.
http://antemedius.com/content/libya-r2p-no...
"It's now common knowledge that British SAS, French intelligence, US Central Intelligence Agency assets, Qatar special forces and mercenaries of all stripes were parachuted as boots on the ground for months, planning and training the "rebels" and in close coordination with that philanthropic prodigy, NATO.
That was never the UN mandate - but who cares? NATO/GCC paid the bills, NATO conducted the bombing and NATO/GCC will "stabilize" the mess, according to a 70-page plan leaked by the British to Rupert Murdoch'sz Times of London."
"Expect local - and global - fireworks as far as grabbing the loot is concerned. Without even considering the (still unexplored) oil and gas wealth, Libya's foreign assets are worth at least $150 billion. Libya's central bank, now about to be privatized, has no less than 143.8 tons of gold. Then there's at least a millennium supply of fresh water, which had started to be harnessed by Gaddafi via the spectacular, multibillion dollar Great Man-Made River (GMR) project."
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"Oil-rich but with a relatively small population of 6.6. million, Gadhafi's Libya welcomed hundreds of thousands of black Africans looking for work in recent decades. "
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/01/l...
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NATOs War on Libya is an Attack on African DevelopmentDan Glazebrook
6 09 2011
http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/tag/afr... /
To prevent this threat of African development, the Europeans and the USA have responded in the only way they know how militarily. Four years ago, the US set up a new command and control centre for the military subjugation of the Africa, called AFRICOM. The problem for the US was that no African country wanted to host them; indeed, until very recently, Africa was unique in being the only continent in the world without a US military base. And this fact is in no small part, thanks to the efforts of the Libyan government.
Before Gaddafis revolution deposed the British-backed King Idris in 1969, Libya had hosted one of the worlds biggest US airbases, the Wheelus Air Base; but within a year of the revolution, it had been closed down and all foreign military personnel expelled.
More recently, Gaddafi had been actively working to scupper AFRICOM. African governments that were offered money by the US to host a base were typically offered double by Gaddafi to refuse it, and in 2008 this ad-hoc opposition crystallised into a formal rejection of AFRICOM by the African Union.
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The force used by the occupier to displace the old regime always makes sure the new regime is supine and complaint. The National Transitional Council, made up of former Gadhafi loyalists, Islamists and tribal leaders, many of whom detest each other, will be the Wests vehicle for the reconfiguration of Libya. Libya will return to being the colony it was before Gadhafi and the other young officers in 1969 ousted King Idris, who among other concessions had let Standard Oil write Libyas petroleum laws. Gadhafis defiance of Western commercial interests, which saw the nationalization of foreign banks and foreign companies, along with the oil industry, as well as the closure of U.S. and British air bases, will be reversed. The despotic and collapsed or collapsing regimes in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Syria once found their revolutionary legitimacy in the pan-Arabism of Egypts Gamal Abdel Nasser. But these regimes fell victim to their own corruption, decay and brutality. None were worth defending. Their disintegration, however, heralds a return of the corporate and imperial power that spawned figures like Nasser and will spawn his radical 21st century counterparts.
Libya: Here We Go Again
Monday 5 September 2011
by: Chris Hedges, Truthdig | Op-Ed
http://www.truthout.com/libya-here-we-go-a...
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LIBYA: Rebels execute black immigrants while forces kidnap others
http://somalilandpress.com/libya-rebels-ex...
"Many Africans have virtually nothing after years in Libya, many have been looted, robbed, while others saw their living quarters and apartments go in flames. Now they are praying to God to send them home.
While the international leaders are busy drafting resolutions to dismantle Muammar Gaddafi, the African Union has not yet commented on the situation in Libya.
Meanwhile, the International Criminal Court is said to have started a formal inquiry into possible crimes against humanity in Libya that will investigate the Libyan regime."
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JohnPilger.com
8 September 2011
http://johnpilger.com/articles/hail-to-the...
..."I quote that not so much for its Orwellian quality but as a model of journalism's role in justifying "our" bloodbaths in advance.
This is Rupert's Revolution, after all. Gone from the Murdoch press are pejorative "insurgents". The action in Libya, says The Times, is "a revolution... as revolutions used to be". That it is a coup by a gang of Muammar Gaddafi's ex cronies and spooks in collusion with Nato is hardly news.
The self-appointed "rebel leader", Mustafa Abdul Jalil, was Gaddafi's feared justice minister. The CIA runs or bankrolls most of the rest, including America's old friends, the Mujadeen Islamists who spawned al-Qaeda.
They told journalists what they needed to know: that Gaddafi was about to commit "genocide", of which there was no evidence, unlike the abundant evidence of "rebel" massacres of black African workers falsely accused of being mercenaries. European bankers' secret transfer of the Central Bank of Libya from Tripoli to "rebel" Benghazi by European bankers in order to control the country's oil billions was an epic heist of little .
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Sirte a 'living hell,' says aid group
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/co...
Tuesday 04 October 2011 by Our Foreign Desk Printable Email
A Red Cross team finally entered the besieged Libyan town of Sirte yesterday and delivered urgently needed surgical supplies to treat about 200 wounded people.
Nato has repeatedly targeted Sirte in its seven-month bombing campaign that enabled armed rebels to topple the government of Muammar Gadaffi and gain control of most of the oil-rich state.
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Absolutely horrible to use rape as a propaganda weapon for war, while ignoring the reality of it for all those brutalized, raped and some, murdered by the NATO supported 'rebels' - just one example of their many atrocities.
********* http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2174087 **********
http://andrewgavinmarshall.com/2011/08/26/lies-war-and-empire-natos-humanitarian-imperialism-in-libya
In early March of 2011, news headlines in Western nations reported that Gaddafi would kill half a million people.
<1> On March 18, as the UN agreed to launch air strikes on Libya, it was reported that Gaddafi had begun an assault against the rebel-held town of Benghazi. The Daily Mail reported that Gaddafi had threatened to send in his African mercenaries to crush the rebellion.<2> Reports of Libyan government tanks sitting outside Benghazi poised for an invasion were propagated in the Western media.<3> In the lead-up to the United Nations imposing a no-fly zone, reports spread rapidly through the media of Libyan government jets bombing the rebels.<4> Even in February, the New York Times the sacred temple for the stenographers of power we call journalists reported that Gaddafi was amassing thousands of mercenaries to defend Tripoli and crush the rebels.<5>
Italys Foreign Minister declared that over 1,000 people were killed in the fighting in February, citing the number as credible.<6> Even a top official with Human Rights Watch declared the rebels to be peaceful protesters who are nice, sincere people who want a better future for Libya.<7> The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights declared that thousands of people were likely killed by Gaddafi, and called for international intervention to protect civilians.<8> In April, reports spread near and far at lightning speed of Gaddafis forces using rape as a weapon of war, with the first sentence in a Daily Mail article declaring, Children as young as eight are being raped in front of their families by Gaddafis forces in Libya, with Gaddafi handing out Viagra to his troops in a planned and organized effort to promote rape.<9>
As it turned out, these claims as posterity notes turned out to be largely false and contrived. Doctors Without Borders and Amnesty International both investigated the claims of rape, and have found no first-hand evidence in Libya that rapes are systematic and being used as part of war strategy, and their investigations in Eastern Libya have not turned up significant hard evidence supporting allegations of rapes by Qaddafis forces. Yet, just as these reports came out, Hillary Clinton declared that the U.S. is deeply concerned by reports of wide-scale rape in Libya.<10> Even U.S. military and intelligence officials had to admit that, there is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas; at the same time Susan Rice, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti-impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.<
Untrue, says US
US says Gadhafi troops issued Viagra, raping victims
Allegation suggests troops encouraged to turn to sexual violence, envoys say
By Louis Charbonneau
updated 4/28/2011 9:31:26 PM ET
UNITED NATIONS The U.S. envoy to the United Nations told the Security Council Thursday that troops loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi were increasingly engaging in sexual violence and some had been issued the impotency drug Viagra, diplomats said.
Several U.N. diplomats who attended a closed-door Security Council meeting on Libya told Reuters that U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice raised the Viagra issue in the context of increasing reports of sexual violence by Gadhafi's troops.
"Rice raised that in the meeting but no one responded," a diplomat said on condition of anonymity. The allegation was first reported by a British newspaper.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42809612/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa#.TqXeG96ImU8
US intel: No evidence of Viagra as weapon in Libya
http://www.msnbc .msn.com/id/42824884/ns/world_news-mide...
UN Ambassador Rice reportedly had said drug was being used in systematic rapes
NBC News and news services updated 4/29/2011 1:52:00 PM ET
UNITED NATIONS There is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas, US military and intelligence officials told NBC News on Friday.
Diplomats said Thursday that US Ambassador Susan Rice told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti- impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.
While rape has been a weapon of choice in many other African conflicts, the US officials say they've seen no such reports out of Libya.
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...
bvar22:
The Untold Story in Libya:
How The West Cooked Up The People's Uprising
http://whowhatwhy.com/2011/08/31/now-that-... ... /
The Global Disaster Capitalists never let a good disaster go to waste.
In the case of Libya, they used their Enforcement Arm (NATO & The US Military) to CREATE a disaster where there was none.
For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/M...
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Libya: Oil, Banks, Water, the United Nations, and Americas Holy Crusade by Felicity Arbuthnot
Posted on April 5, 2011 by dandelionsalad
.."The country was commended: for the progress made in the achievement of the Millennium Development Goals, namely universal primary education (and) firm commitment (to) health care. There was praise for cooperation with international organizations in combating human trafficking and corruption .. and for cooperation with the International Organization for Migration.
Progress in enjoyment of economic and social rights, including in the areas of education, health care, poverty reduction and social welfare with measures taken to promote transparency, were also cited. Malaysia: Commended the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya for being party to a significant number of international and regional human rights instruments. Promotion: of the rights of persons with disabilities and praise for measures taken with regard to low income families, were cited...
.."So how does the all tie together? Libya, in March being praised by the Majority of the UN., for human rights progress across the board, to being the latest, bombarded international pariah? A nations destruction enshrined in a UN., Resolution?
The answer lies in part with the Geneva based UN Watch.(vii) UN Watch is : a non-governmental organization whose mandate is to monitor the performance of the United Nations. With Consultative Status to the UN Economic and Social Council, with ties to the UN Department of Public Information, UN Watch is affiliated with the American Jewish Committee. (AJC.)"
http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2011/0... /
Interesting ..... the involvement in HR Watch of persons whose core values include securing energy resources.
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Two Nato missiles forced the group to leave the cars and escape on foot, seeking shelter in a drainage ditch. A bodyguard hurled grenades at approaching militiamen but one grenade "hit the concrete wall and bounced back to fall between Muammar Gaddafi and Abu Bakr Younis", Younis junior said.
"The shrapnel hit my father and he fell down to the ground. Muammar Gaddafi was also injured by the grenade, on the left side of his head," he said.
New York-based Human Rights Watch said Gaddafi was already bleeding from head wounds caused by blast shrapnel as he tried to flee Sirte, his hometown.
The charity obtained unedited mobile footage that showed militia fighters abusing Gaddafi as they took him into custody in October 2011.
"As he was being led on to the main road, a militiaman stabbed him in his anus with what appears to have been a bayonet, causing another rapidly bleeding wound," the report said.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaddafi-killed-bayonet-stab-anus-libya-395224
The Grand Finale - sodomized with a bayonet, beaten, tortured and murdered in the street - "We came, we saw ....... he died, lol".
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Horace Campbell and Maximilian Forte have written two solid accounts describing the reality versus myths of regime change in Libya. Clintons characterization of accelerating the fall of Qaddafi is a cynical understatement, like her self congratulatory comment that we came, we saw, he died after rebels killed Qaddafi on the street. Many of the refugees drowning in the Mediterannean Sea or reaching the shores of Italy today are a direct consequence of that operation. Yet who has been held to account?
Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/09/the-wicked-war-on-syria/
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Britain, Libya and the Mediterranean - The Creation of a Humanitarian Emergency
by Dan Glazebrook / May 1st, 2015
NATOs war of aggression against Libya in 2011 turned the country over to racist death squads, with hundreds of sub-Saharan migrant workers and black Libyans beaten and burnt to death by the revolutionaries and tens of thousands illegally detained and tortured by the militias. Tawergha, the only black African town on the Mediterranean, and formerly home to around 30,000 people, is now a ghost town after NATOs shock troops militias with names like the Brigades for the purging of black skins ethnically cleansed the region. Last weeks butchering of 30 Ethiopian workers by ISIS is but the latest chapter in the anti-African pogroms that have characterised the Libyan insurgency from the very start. This is the reality of NATOs Libyan revolution (led by AbdulHakim BelHaj, now leader of ISIS in Libya) and it is precisely this from which black Africans in Libya are now fleeing. As Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi put it, a person has to risk his life because he needs to escape from a situation where they are chopping off the heads of those near him.
And this head-chopping has not been restricted to Libyas borders. NATOs war has boosted head-choppers across the entire region, from Tunisia and Algeria to Mali, Nigeria and Cameroon. Before 2011, Boko Haram barely existed. Today, thanks to NATO opening up Libyas arsenals to them and their friends, they are killing hundreds every week, often burning them alive in churches and mosques. As one Nigerian told a reporter last week, We prefer to die trying (to migrate) than stay back there and die .Stay at home and get shot dead or maybe burnt to death; I just prefer to die while trying or survive.
Yet the Libyan war itself is only the latest in a long series of acts of aggression launched by the British state and its allies, all of which continue to have disastrous consequences across the entire Middle East and North Africa region. A look at the list of where the migrants come from makes this devastatingly clear. The majority of the worlds refugees come from one of three countries: Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria. What all have in common is that they have all been subject to vicious terror campaigns by Britain, the USA and their allies: whether directly, as in Afghanistan; through allied states, as with the US-backed Ethiopian invasion of Somalia in 2006 (which toppled the first stable government the country had had in decades); or through the provision of cash, weapons and diplomatic cover to sectarian death squads, as in the case of Syria. Yemen is the latest additional source of refugees, with the Saudi bombing campaign bringing new arrivals to almost 10,000 per week.
Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/05/britain-libya-and-the-mediterranean/
Behind Every Refugee Stands an Arms Trader
http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/04/behind-every-refugee-stands-an-arms-trader/
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Trapped in Libya: the flotsam of the Wests wars
By Vijay Prashad
Source: al-Araby
May 14, 2015
European ambassadors have drafted a UN resolution, under chapter VII (which allows use of force), to tackle the crisis. For them the military option is the brightest light. As Mogherini said, the EU wants the authority to use all necessary means to seize and dispose of the [smugglers] vessels.
Thus far in 2015, over 60,000 people have tried to cross from Libya to Europe. Of them, close to two thousand have died a death toll 20 times higher than in 2014, it continues.
The threat to the refugees is a direct outcome of UN Security Council Resolution 1973, ironically under the Responsibility to Protect (R2P) banner. A new UNSC resolution is not going to be about the protection of the refugees, but to use force to destroy their lifeline. R2P has been ground under by the Wests behavior in Libya.
Full article: https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/trapped-in-libya-the-flotsam-of-the-wests-wars/
On Monday, a New York Times story demonstrated more specifically why Clinton's interactions with Blumenthal may have been a bad idea. Blumenthal, the Times reports via solid sources, was advising the Secretary of State both before and after former Libyan autocrat Muammar Qaddafi's death while also advising a group of private individuals who hoped to make money by obtaining reconstruction-type contracts in a post-Qaddafi Libya.
Much of the Libya intelligence that Mr. Blumenthal passed on to Mrs. Clinton appears to have come from a group of business associates he was advising as they sought to win contracts from the Libyan transitional government. The venture, which was ultimately unsuccessful, involved other Clinton friends, a private military contractor and one former C.I.A. spy seeking to get in on the ground floor of the new Libyan economy ...
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/05/18/hillary_clinton_sidney_blumenthal_libya_unofficial_adviser_represented_business.html
Just as much a fucking sham as Iraq, with the exact same results. And on ........ to Syria.
Apply exactly the same 'logic' and reasoning to Syria. Anyone with functioning grey matter should actually be able to understand all this.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)Does Assad "use his country's own resources to support the people of Syria"? Come on, stop avoiding the question. Do you think he's a brutal dictator or not? Or do you think he's kind of okay, that the negative info on him is a "MSM" conspiracy, and "The West Cooked Up The People's Uprising" in Syria just like in Libya?
polly7
(20,582 posts)Sorry about that. Just answering to your lie.
Here, DU'er KoKo posted a great article you might enjoy:
How the US Helped ISIS---Recently Declassified Document Reveals
A recently declassified document again shows the United States complicity in the rise of ISIS.
By David Mizner
June 02, 2015 "Information Clearing House" - "Jacobin" - In October 2014, Vice President Joe Biden publicly criticized US allies for backing ISIS. The previous month, General Dempsey had told the Senate Armed Services Committee that Americas Arab allies were funding the group.
US officials were trying to distance themselves from the ISIS-supporting actions of their allies without harshly condemning them. Biden suggested that their arming of ISIS was unintentional and quickly apologized to them. (Responding to Dempsey, Senator Lindsey Graham actually defended them: They were trying to beat Assad. I believe they realize the folly of their ways.)
This mild criticism of allies came amid the effort of American officials to sell the decision to start bombing ISIS. By this time, the group was already entrenched in eastern Syria and western Iraq. But theres no evidence that in the months and years prior, the Obama administration had made any attempt to prevent its client states from helping ISIS become a regional power.
The United States itself continued to send arms into Syria despite the certainty that some would end up in the hands of ISIS. We have good relations with our brothers in the FSA, said ISIS leader Abu Atheer in 2013, referring to the US-backed Free Syrian Army. He said ISIS bought anti-aircraft missiles and anti-tank weapons from the FSA.
A recently declassified US military intelligence document is further evidence of US complicity. Formerly classified as secret, an August 2012 Defense Intelligence Agency report was among a batch of documents obtained by the conservative group Judicial Watch.
The mainstream press and Republican politicians have focused on other documents in the collection: those related to the 2012 attack on the US Consulate in Benghazi, Libya. Largely overlooked is this document, which contradicts the official narrative not just about the rise of ISIS but also the makeup of the opposition in Syria and its relationship with foreign backers.
The August 5, 2012 DIA report confirms much of what Assad has been saying all along about his opponents both inside and outside Syria, says terrorism analyst Max Abrams.
The report concerns a period in time when the escalating violence in Iraq had ceased to be a prominent topic in the US press and when its coverage of the war in Syria mirroring the discussion in Washington focused on the Assad government, not the forces aligned against it. This may be hard to imagine now that ISIS has become the US governments favorite monster, but during these months President Obama and his team gave major speeches on Syria that didnt even mention the group.
Even after ISIS took Fallujah in January 2014, discussion of the group in establishment outlets was scarce. It wasnt until later in 2014 after continued battlefield victories and heavily publicized beheadings of westerners that Islamic State became Public Enemy Number 1.
More of a Long Read at........
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article42026.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11339855
MONDAY, MARCH 2, 2015: Noam Chomsky: After Dangerous Proxy War, Keeping...
Noam Chomsky on How the Iraq War Birthed ISIS & Why U.S. Policy Undermines the Fight Against It
(VIDEO)
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
ISIS is a monstrosity. Theres not much doubt about that. It didnt come from nowhere. Its one of the results of the U.S. hitting a very vulnerable societyIraqwith a sledgehammer, which elicited sectarian conflicts that had not existed. They became very violent. The U.S. violence made it worse. Were all familiar with the crimes. Out of this came lots of violent, murderous forces. ISIS is one. But the Shiite militias are not that different. Theyre carrying outtheyre the kind of thewhen they say the Iraqi army is attacking, its probably mostly the Shiite militias with the Iraqi army in the background. I mean, the way the Iraqi army collapsed is an astonishing military fact. This is an army of, I think, 350,000 people, heavily armed by the United States and trained by the United States for 10 years. A couple of thousand guerrillas showed up, and they all ran away. The generals ran away first. And the soldiers didnt know to do. They ran away after them.
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/3/2/noam_chomsky_on_how_the_iraq
By Mnar Muhawesh @mnarmuh | September 9, 2015
Editors note: This article has been updated to reflect recent Wikileaks revelations of US State Department leaks that show plans to destabilize Syria and overthrow the Syrian government as early as 2006. The leaks reveal that these plans were given to the US directly from the Israeli government and would be formalized through instigating civil strife and sectarianism through partnership with nations like Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Qatar and even Egypt to break down the power structue in Syria to essentially to weaken Iran and Hezbolla. The leaks also reveal Israeli plans to use this crisis to expand its occupation of the Golan Heights for additional oil exploration and military expansion.
Indeed, its worth asking: How did demonstrations held by hundreds of protesters demanding economic change in Syria four years ago devolve into a deadly sectarian civil war, fanning the flames of extremism haunting the world today and creating the worlds second largest refugee crisis?
Foreign meddling in Syria began several years before the Syrian revolt erupted. Wikieaks released leaked US State Department cables from 2006 revealing US plans to overthrow the Syrian government through instigating civil strife, and receiving these very orders straight from Tel Aviv. The leaks reveal the United States partnership with nations like Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Qatar and even Egypt to use sectarianism to divide Syria through the Sunni and Shiite divide to destabilize the nation to weaken Iran and Hezbolla. Israel is also revealed to attempt to use this crisis to expand its occupation of the Golan Heights for additional oil exploration.
According to major media outlets like the BBC and the Associated Press, the demonstrations that supposedly swept Syria were comprised of only hundreds of people, but additional Wikileaks cables reveal CIA involvement on the ground in Syria to instigate these very demonstrations as early as March 2011.
Perhaps the most accurate description of the current crisis over gas, oil and pipelines that is raging in Syria has been described by Dmitry Minin, writing for the Strategic Cultural Foundation in May 2013: ..........
Note the purple line which traces the proposed Qatar-Turkey natural gas pipeline and note that all of the countries highlighted in red are part of a new coalition hastily put together after Turkey finally (in exchange for NATOs acquiescence on Erdogans politically-motivated war with the PKK) agreed to allow the US to fly combat missions against ISIS targets from Incirlik. Now note which country along the purple line is not highlighted in red. Thats because Bashar al-Assad didnt support the pipeline and now were seeing what happens when youre a Mid-East strongman and you decide not to support something the US and Saudi Arabia want to get done. (Map: ZeroHedge.com)
Divide and conquer: A path to regime change: ( ........... read more.)
Refugees assist a fellow Refugee holding a boy as they are stuck between Macedonian riot police officers and refugees during a clash near the border train station of Idomeni, northern Greece, as they wait to be allowed by the Macedonian police to cross the border from Greece to Macedonia, Friday, Aug. 21, 2015. Macedonian special police forces have fired stun grenades to disperse thousands of refugees stuck on a no-mans land with Greece, a day after Macedonia declared a state of emergency on its borders to deal with a massive influx of refugees heading north to Europe. (AP Photo/Darko Vojinovic)
http://www.mintpressnews.com/migrant-crisis-syria-war-fueled-by-competing-gas-pipelines/209294/
The Wicked War on Syria
by Rick Sterling / September 29th, 2015
Regarding the so-called peaceful protesters, in fact, there was a violent element from the start. In Deraa in March 2011 several police were killed. In the original capital of the revolution, Homs, a very credible eye-witness reported armed demonstrators initiating the violence.
Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/09/the-wicked-war-on-syria/
And another little video for you:
uhnope
(6,419 posts)But I think we can read between the lines. You won't even admit that Assad is a brutal dictator. That's clinical.
Information Clearinghouse, John Pilger, LOL. Anybody can cut and paste factoids to support any viewpoint. Reminds me of Rush Limbaugh, or the Flat Earth Society.
You cut and paste thousands of words and think you can get away with being an apologist for murderous dictators. You can't.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I apologized for a murderous dictator? You lie. Again and again and again and again.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)It's disgusting. Why can't you at least admit that these men have been brutal dictators? WTF? You could still oppose western intervention. Really, WTF?
polly7
(20,582 posts)jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)Video shows peaceful protesters desecrating the bodies of innocent police men. Throwing them down from the top a police building where they were most likely executed in cold blood. These are the people the west are supporting
polly7
(20,582 posts)That is horrific.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Blame it ALL on Hilary and the Dems then.
DU- where Bush was awesome and Obama sucks.
And they bust your chops for appearing on Fox!
polly7
(20,582 posts)Omg ........ the crap you guys need to dream up to justify slamming anyone that posts something you might not agree with.
Bush was intent on fulfilling the PNAC agenda that included regime change in Iraq - which provided that vacuum now occupied by barbarious murderers - supported and funded by 'allies'.
Maybe you should read up on stuff before you claim anyone is 'denying' something.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)The agenda here of the person I am arguing with, besides twisting my words to try to make me look bad, is that the US and "The West" are the quintessential evil and Russia is good to the point of being snow white.
As I have pointed out a number of times, this is Orwellian negative nationalism. The truth for such people is a fungible concept to be either outright replaced or twisted whatever way is necessary to have the US and West look bad.
polly7
(20,582 posts)So stop doing it.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)times.
Is it Bush? Is it "The West"? Is it Obama? Or is it ME? LOL.
You seem to alternately blame one or several of the above.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Bush certainly did represent the west and his 'coalition of the willing/bribed'. I never mentioned Obama, or you - but you always seem to make yourself the center of everything, don't you?
Childish post. Seriously.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And leads to bullshit posts like Obama murdered a teenager. It's all anti-Dem propaganda.
polly7
(20,582 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)Where the fuck are you getting all this?
Is Bush not from the west?
Who mentioned Obama? He didn't start the invasion of Iraq - why are you linking him to it. Odd. Seems you might have some sort of agenda here.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Mention of Bush at all. There are loads of people trying to rewrite history here as if BO= Bush, and it's fucking repulsive and ignorant.
polly7
(20,582 posts)and weak.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)You may or may not beaming the many here shoveling that "they're all the same" crap. I really don't care either way. just noting that it is crap.
polly7
(20,582 posts)That's some rotten manure you're trying to shovel.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)but thanks. I guess.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)You were happy with me that I finally tried to placate your anger or whatever it is and said Bush didn't represent the west - like changing the words in a fairy tale for a small child, so I chose east.
Got a problem with that?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Was actually talking about the east. We both know better than that, don't we?
polly7
(20,582 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)betsuni
(25,465 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)By people who are so invested in Hillary Clinton that they think everything is about her.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Millions of lives ruined and more every day, and it's turned into this stupid little nit-picking, dishonest, boring crap. I honestly don't see how they think they're helping her. Seriously, if I had this kind of 'support', I'd be very, very worried.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)...point to them in that thread. There is none.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I left the little mean girl stuff behind in high school, why didn't you?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Some of these are real head scratchers, but the contortions it takes to try and derail like that are sort of interesting.... Sort of.
polly7
(20,582 posts)uhnope
(6,419 posts)Assad has been dropping barrel bombs on them already but Putin decided that wasn't enough killing of dissidents. Putin has pretty much destroyed the opposition in Russia so he needs something to do--kill people in Syria to keep his puppet Assad in power, and keep his access to the port.
Remember that next time you think the USA is only country that has ever done something wrong
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)They just got started, give em a chance to kill some Jihadist, unless your rooting for them. Your overwhelming concern for radical sunni militants has me concerned.
The secular government of Assad, doesn't like religious terrorists, bummer.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)which helps your hero Putin so you're glad, right?
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Now thats funny.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)I'll give you a chance to take that back, because it's sick, really sick, even for a Putinista.
http://www.ksby.com/story/30150547/the-latest-uk-warns-russia-against-hitting-moderate-groups
A moderate Western-backed Syrian rebel group says one of its leading officers has been killed in the Russian airstrikes in Syria's central Homs province.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)and you know that. The moderates are the ones fighting for the secular regime, or they fled to the refugee camps.
The "Free Syrian Army" was never free, syrian or much of an army. It takes a lot of chutzpah to claim otherwise.
3,000 FSA Fighters Defect to ISIS in the Qalamoun Mountains
http://www.almasdarnews.com/article/3000-fsa-fighters-defect-isis-qalamoun-mountains/
More moderates
Rex
(65,616 posts)It is their turn. We got enough problems in the hundreds of spots we have our military. Besides this is just to keep a Russian friendly dictator in power, nothing more.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)If I were President, I would end our involvement so fast now that the Russians are in that people would doubt their memory that we were ever there.
denbot
(9,899 posts)They are there to prop up their client.
ISIS is also an enemy of Assad so hitting a few of them once in a while will allow Pootie to justify their continued presence there.
This
GreatGazoo
(3,937 posts)I think Russia just ate our lunch.
The US MIC has wanted to overthrow Assad for over 14 years. Assad is on the infamous list of "7 countries in five years" that General Wes Clark exposed on NPR.
ISIS is Saudi Arabia, Qatar and, by alliance, Turkey -- and all of them wanted Assad overthrown. So in selling the overthrow of Assad to the American public and others who ignore details, ISIS was going to be the reason we invaded Syria. They were likely going to say something like 'well bombing isn't enough and training moderate rebels didn't work out so boots on the ground....' That is all out the window now.
We weren't fighting ISIS because the real goal is/was to overthrow Assad and let the Saudis install a Sunni extremist government, a Sunni version of Iran.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)overestimated our own leadership in this endeavor it would seem.
GreatGazoo
(3,937 posts)The goals of ISIS have overlap with the goals of the US MIC -- over throw Assad, fight Iran / Hezbollah in the region.
I have to think that since they have wanted to oust Assad for 14 years now that they wouldn't mind if ISIS did it. But Russia WOULD mind and has now moved to block the overthrow.
I expect the US will put more pressure on Iraq to stop Iran and Russia from using its airspace to resupply in Syria and the focus on ISIS will take at least a temporary backseat to a new focus on Russian aggression and over-step. I also expect McCain to make more noise and try to blame Obama for this failure of an ISIS/Saudi Frenemy policy that seems to have originated with McCain, the GOP and the House of Saud.
Xolodno
(6,390 posts)The west couldn't intervene more other than air strikes while negotiating with Iran on a nuclear deal. A deal both Israel and Saudi Arabia wanted dead...so the west could get more involved in toppling Assad.
Even then, those Air Strikes were limited to hitting ISIS primarily. Which is is the Saudi's proxy against Iranian supported Assad.
So you have, Western airstrikes hitting ISIS that is supported by the Saudi's which are troops fighting against Assad and Iranian volunteers. And the west needs Iranian cooperation on the Nuke deal.....its a real fucked up mess.
The West "tried" to get the ball rolling on developing forces that were pro-west. But being an area that has a history of being subjugated by western powers, there wasn't much appetite for that. Plus the Saudi's would have preferred something more loyal to them.
Russia gave the West its time to figure something out and nothing has worked. So, Putin said enough is enough. Assad stays for the time being.
On the plus side, you now have a large population of radicals all contained in one nation as opposed to mingling with the populace all over the world.
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)where they came from.
karynnj
(59,501 posts)organized others to do so. Note that Russia is also not putting in ground troops. One "advantage" they have is that the ground troops they can coordinate with are the Syrian army - barrel bombs and all.
I think the US was correct that it could not be US (or European) troops on the ground - as even a win could not be sustained without staying there forever. However, no matter who in the Obama administration spoke - there was always concern about vetting the rebels and the reality that many were connected to groups that were not really on our side. ( I have heard HRC's comments that had they trained the rebels in 2011/2012 when she and Petraeus wanted to it would have been different than now. She does have an advantage here in that as one path not taken, the end result can't be known. However, it does seem that a fair proportion of the rebels joined ISIS or Al Nusra.)
However, if you wanted to select just one event that triggered this descent into chaos, it was not the US. It was Assad ordering a violent attack on unarmed protesters. That and the subsequent atrocities he committed have made stepping backward impossible or at least quite difficult.
I suspect that given the public comments, there is some hope for a political resolution - that likely leaves Assad in until defined elections that he will be barred from. There will be some limited face saving concessions on all sides with no one happy. (Obama/Kerry will be attacked more on this than Iran if it happens with both the Republicans and HRC arguing that there could have been a better solution with Assad going off to face war crimes. In reality, it might be that - at least for the short term - the need to end the chaos and killing will have to take precedence over calls that justice requires that he face ICC charges. Consider that, the leader of Sudan, who also committed war crimes. The US manoevered around him to achieve some diplomatic goals - which led to the creation of South Sudan. Had South Sudan worked out better, it would make a great case that this was the right thing to do.
GreatGazoo
(3,937 posts)Many believe that the start of the civil war was not merely "Assad ordering a violent attack on unarmed protesters" but rather Saudi-backed Islamists, snipers and weapons:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/why-syrians-support-bashar-al-assad/5405208
leveymg
(36,418 posts)The first lethal confrontations that sparked the Syrian civil war were a series of armed clashes, in which eleven died. What is usually ignored is that of that number, seven Syrian policemen were killed. The first round of violence was hardly the massacre of peaceful democracy demonstrators that is usually portrayed.
The Wiki timeline shows the first fatalities of the Syrian civil war occurred on March 18, 2011 in Daraa, on the southern border with Jordan, which had long been a center of anti-regime activity.
Here are the events,, starting on March 11 that are missing from the official Wiki page:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/11/us-syria-iraq-idUSTRE72A3MI20110311
World | Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:37am EST
Related: World
Syria says seizes weapons smuggled from Iraq
DAMASCUS
Syria said Friday security forces seized a large shipment of weapons and explosives and night-vision goggles this week in a truck coming from Iraq.
The official news agency SANA said the shipment, intercepted at the Tanaf border crossing Monday, was intended "for use in actions that affect Syria's internal security and spread unrest and chaos." (Tanaf is the southernmost border crossing with Iraq)
It did not say how many weapons were seized. But published pictures showing dozens of grenades and pistols as well as rifles and ammunition belts.
The agency quoted the driver of the truck as saying the weapons had been loaded in Baghdad, and that he had been told he would be paid $5,000 to deliver them in Syria.
The first news report that the demonstrators were armed in the first fatal clashes with police on March 18, and that seven police were killed on March 20 was in Israel National News:
Syria: Seven Police Killed, Buildings Torched in Protests
Continued protests in Syria claim lives of seven police and four protesters, and result in burning a courthouse and Baath Party HQ in Daraa.
By Gabe Kahn.
First Publish: 3/21/2011, 11:05 AM / Last Update: 3/21/2011, 11:17 AM
Seven police officers and at least four demonstrators in Syria have been killed in continuing violent clashes that erupted in the southern town of Daraa last Thursday.
The clashes came amidst growing political tension in the Muslim nation, whose Presidents and many senior officials have always come from Syria's influential Shia Alawite minority, when twenty students were arrested for spray-painting anti-government graffiti on a wall.
On Friday police opened fire on armed protesters killing four and injuring as many as 100 others. According to one witness, who spoke to the press on condition of anonymity, "They used live ammunition immediately -- no tear gas or anything else."
At the funerals of two of those killed opposition leaders handed authorities a list of demands, which included the release of political prisoners. In an uncharacteristic gesture intended to ease tensions the government offered to release the detained students, but seven police officers were killed, and the Baath Party Headquarters and courthouse were torched, in renewed violence on Sunday.
The latest clashes occurred after unconfirmed reports that two more protesters had been killed began to circulate. According to witnesses, Syrian security forces have encircled Daraa to impede more protesters from reaching the city. Anti-government protests are rare in Syria and have traditionally been brutally put down, but Daraa is not the only town where protests have occurred.
The "official Wiki does not reveal the essential facts that the Dara'a protests were shootouts by armed groups of rampaging demonstrators and police:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_uprising_phase_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War
Civil uprising (JanuaryJuly 2011)
March 2011 unrest
Main article: Timeline of the Syrian civil war (JanuaryApril 2011)
Demonstration in Homs against Assad.
The unrest began on 15 March in Damascus and Aleppo, yet in the southern city of Daraa, sometimes called the "Cradle of the Revolution",[20] protests had been triggered on 6 March by the incarceration and torture of 15 young students, who were arrested for writing anti-government graffiti in the city,[21][22] "The people want the fall of the regime".[23] Demonstrators clashed with local police, and confrontations escalated on 18 March after Friday prayers. With thousands protesting, the clashes resulted in several civilian deaths. On 20 March, a mob burned down the Ba'ath Party headquarters and other public buildings. Security forces quickly responded, firing live ammunition at crowds, and attacking the focal points of the demonstrations. The two-day assault resulted in the deaths of fifteen protesters.[24]
Meanwhile, minor protests occurred elsewhere in the country. Protesters demanded the release of political prisoners, the abolition of Syria's 48-year emergency law, more freedoms, and an end to pervasive government corruption.[25] The events led to a "Friday of Dignity" on 18 March, when large-scale protests broke out in several cities, including Banias, Damascus, al-Hasakah, Daraa, Deir az-Zor, and Hama. Police responded to the protests with tear gas, water cannons, and beatings. At least 6 people were killed and many others injured.[26]
On 25 March, mass protests spread nationwide, as demonstrators emerged after Friday prayers.[24] Over 100,000 people reportedly marched in Daraa,[27] but at least 20 protesters were reportedly killed. Protests also spread to other Syrian cities, including Homs, Hama, Baniyas, Jasim, Aleppo, Damascus and Latakia. Over 70 protesters in total were reported dead.[28]
Demonstration in Douma, a Damascus suburb, against the Assad government on 8 April 2011
Crackdown
Main article: Syrian reactions to the Syrian civil war
Riot police in Damascus
Even before the uprising began, the Syrian government conducted numerous arrests of protesters, political activists and human rights campaigners, many of whom were labeled "terrorists" by the Assad government. In early February, authorities arrested several activists, including political leaders Ghassan al-Najar,[29] Abbas Abbas,[30] and Adnan Mustafa.[31]
The police often responded to the protests violently, not only using water cannons and tear gas, but also beating protesters and firing live ammunition.[32]
As the uprising began, the Syrian government waged a campaign of arrests that captured tens of thousands of people, according to lawyers and activists in Syria and human rights groups. In response to the uprising, Syrian law had been changed to allow the police and any of the nation's 18 security forces to detain a suspect for eight days without a warrant. Arrests focused on two groups: political activists, and men and boys from the towns that the Syrian Army would start to besiege in April.[33] Many of those detained experienced ill-treatment. Many detainees were cramped in tight rooms and were given limited resources, and some were beaten, electrically jolted, or debilitated. At least 27 torture centers run by Syrian intelligence agencies were revealed by Human Rights Watch on 3 July 2012.[34]
President Assad has characterized the opposition as armed terrorist groups with Islamist "takfiri" extremist motives, portraying himself as the last guarantee for a secular form of government.[35] Early in the month of April, a large deployment of security forces prevented tent encampments in Latakia. Blockades were set up in several cities to prevent the movement of protests. Despite the crackdown, widespread protests continued throughout the month in Daraa, Baniyas, Al-Qamishli, Homs, Douma and Harasta.[36]
Concessions
Main article: Timeline of the Syrian civil war (JanuaryApril 2011)
Opposition demonstration in Baniyas
During March and April, the Syrian government, hoping to alleviate the unrest, offered political reforms and policy changes. Authorities shortened mandatory army conscription,[37] and in an apparent attempt to reduce corruption, fired the governor of Daraa.[38] The government announced it would release political prisoners, cut taxes, raise the salaries of public sector workers, provide more press freedoms, and increase job opportunities.[39] Many of these announced reforms were never implemented.[40]
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I do it sometimes, but it does get tiresome.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)the sooner people wake up to that fact, the better off we'll be...
GreatGazoo
(3,937 posts)Putin gets a whole package in this -- embarrass the West, thwart the Saudis, buddy up with Iran, support Assad, draw and kill Chechen rebels to an area outside Russia, and keep and expand Russia's port on the Mediterranean.
polly7
(20,582 posts)By Justin Podur
Source: teleSUR English
September 27, 2015
Despite the horrors of their videos, and the airstrikes that have been organized against ISIS, the West, and its allies, have found several uses for ISIS.
ISIS provides Western allies Saudi Arabia and Qatar a way to advance their influence in the region against Iran. ISIS provides an outlet for the people that Saudi clerics have fired up to hate everyone but their sect, people who might otherwise stay in their own Gulf countries and take up arms.
ISIS provides the troops for Western ally, Turkey, to fight the Kurds, who created an autonomous zone in Iraq, have recently done so in Syria and have long been trying to advance their agenda of self-determination in Turkey.
For Western ally, Israel, ISIS bleeds Hizbollah and has helped destroy Syria, creates massive numbers of refugees, and so diverts and destroys military forces that might otherwise be facing off with Israel.
Full article: https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/the-uses-of-isis/
polly7
(20,582 posts)ozone_man
(4,825 posts)It's amazing the propaganda coming from the administration and MSM now.
polly7
(20,582 posts)war is like a crime scene. we should be looking at motives and opportunity to figure out who dunnit, or in this case 'whodoin'it'.
Plus the source of funding for ISIS was confirmed over a year ago:
http://www.oneindia.com/feature/why-does-saudi-arabia-fund-the-isis-1791158.html
polly7
(20,582 posts)KG
(28,751 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)of getting it right this time, we should congratulate them on their determination and do everything we can to avoid doing likewise
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Твоё здоровье!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)... as the Russians get more and more involved, the Russian military has historically had very little concern for civilian casualties when it is ethnic Russians and related Slavs and even less when it is other kinds of foreigners. There are many Putinistas here and I am curious what will happen when evidence of potential war crimes comes out as it almost certainly will.
Will they demand justice or make some kind of excuse? I'm betting on the excuse.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)of using chemical weapons
Their source is usually Robert Parry.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)The furious attempt to explain away Assad's use of chemical weapons was a new low for sure.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Bombing Islamist radicals.
I don't see any sign that there is going to be a massive Russian military buildup--I mean with tens or hundreds of thousands of troops.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)to other anti-Assad groups.
The US didn't have a giant buildup going when it first intervened in Viet Nam either.
But, mission creep sets in. The goal is to keep Assad in power at all costs.
How high will those costs get?
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I don't think Russia's goal is to keep Assad in power at all costs.
I think they are looking to lay the groundwork for a negotiated settlement that keeps the Syrian state largely intact. I can see a transition once Assad's current term is up.
That's something we could have done three or four years ago, but instead we were all "Assad must go!" no matter the results. And now we have the results of that policy.
polly7
(20,582 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Their only rational reason for being there is to shore him up.
Assad was unwilling to discuss a transition from power 3-4 years ago.
This is what dictators do--they stay in power.
And what global powers (and wannabe global powers) do is cultivate assets like Assad and keep them in power.
killbotfactory
(13,566 posts)when you are made a target by the worlds greatest superpower, and surrounded on all sides by countries who are willing to bankroll psychopaths intent on ethnically cleansing the state and the overthrow of the government.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and has always been one of the most sadistic, evil, monstrous governments on the planet. Assad's goons are every bit as cruel and vicious as the worst ISIS has to offer.
It is high idiocy to try to explain/justify their crimes by pointing at the United States.
killbotfactory
(13,566 posts)If we gave a shit about human rights as a principle of foreign policy, we wouldn't be allies with Saudi Arabia. Our government waged an illegal war in Iraq that has led to the death and displacement of millions. We even exported our foriegn prisoners to Syria and Libya for those regimes to torture some folks. The ones we didn't want to subject to "non-torture".
The reason these states are brutal in the first place is because they are sitting on a tinder box. They are resource rich, home to many different ethnic factions, and are targets for the US and our allies in the region because they are not pro-west.
All sides are bad in this, but it's a choice between one side which has maintained a secular and mostly peaceful and stable society where different ethnic groups lived in relative peace (before this fucking war) vs. a side that throws old gay men off of buildings, proudly massacres minorities, and enslaves women.
Tough shit to the Saudi's who want to take over the country, or the Israeli's who want to make life hard on Hezbollah and Iran, or to the West who want to shut down Russia's port. None of those goals are worth more than the lives of the people caught up in this nightmare.
polly7
(20,582 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)for bloodthirsty tyrants.
PS You must love the job Kim Jong Il is doing.
killbotfactory
(13,566 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)killbotfactory
(13,566 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)You are actively excusing and justifying atrocities committed by a military dictatorship.
That's not progressive or anti-war.
killbotfactory
(13,566 posts)stop pretending their is a good option in all of this. whatever the motives of the people who rose up in protest after the Arab spring have been washed away in a river of blood. everything about this mess is digusting.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)He wants to keep ISIS alive, because he knows if ISIS is completely defeated, there'll be little reason for anyone to keep him where he is.
killbotfactory
(13,566 posts)especially when they are bankrolled by geopolitical enemies.
that's how the world works.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)That preceded the civil war.
Had Assad not been a thuggish, evil psychopathic dictator, there never would have been this civil war.
He, not the United States, is the reason there is a civil war there.
still_one
(92,136 posts)in the middle
and to think this was given birth by our invasion of Iraq based on a lie
romanic
(2,841 posts)The U.S. needs to stop fucking around in the ME and FOCUS ON THE PEOPLE HERE FIRST!
I hope my point came across.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)however there is oddly as it is, a deep almost cold waresque hatred of Russia here so anything that may directly or inadvertently cause the Putin regime to look favorable is mostly derided.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,406 posts)Obama was trying to do more in Syria but Congress lined up pretty hard against him.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)they think the rest of us are fools. Liberals were calling for the POTUS not to take action unless Congress gave him approval.
As Syria war escalates, Americans cool to U.S. intervention: Reuters/Ipsos poll
WASHINGTON | By Lesley Wroughton
Americans strongly oppose U.S. intervention in Syria's civil war and believe Washington should stay out of the conflict even if reports that Syria's government used deadly chemicals to attack civilians are confirmed, a Reuters/Ipsos poll says.
About 60 percent of Americans surveyed said the United States should not intervene in Syria's civil war, while just 9 percent thought President Barack Obama should act.
More Americans would back intervention if it is established that chemical weapons have been used, but even that support has dipped in recent days - just as Syria's civil war has escalated and the images of hundreds of civilians allegedly killed by chemicals appeared on television screens and the Internet.
The Reuters/Ipsos poll, taken August 19-23, found that 25 percent of Americans would support U.S. intervention if Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's forces used chemicals to attack civilians, while 46 percent would oppose it. That represented a decline in backing for U.S. action since August 13, when Reuters/Ipsos tracking polls found that 30.2 percent of Americans supported intervention in Syria if chemicals had been used, while 41.6 percent did not.
Taken together, the polls suggest that so far, the growing crisis in Syria, and the emotionally wrenching pictures from an alleged chemical attack in a Damascus suburb this week, may actually be hardening many Americans' resolve not to get involved in another conflict in the Middle East.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/25/us-syria-crisis-usa-poll-idUSBRE97O00E20130825
People have seemingly changed their minds now, but this was the situation when the POTUS wanted to intervene. He even threw it over to Congress, who didn't have the votes to grant him the AUMF.
I think it's hysterical that the Putinstas who decried PBO taking any unilateral action, seem to be now applauding King Putin for the same action.
treestar
(82,383 posts)If he wants to think Russia is in the big leagues again.
840high
(17,196 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Syria had close ties to the Soviet Union, which viewed it an an antidote to U.S. ally Israel. Often, when Syrians went abroad to study, it was to the USSR, most often to Russia, as Moscow and then-Leningrad were centers of learning and culture then as now.
Of course, the last time the USSR/Russia got involved in the Middle East, in Afghanistan, it was a disaster that many credit with bringing about the fall of the USSR. Perhaps the delay can be attributed to "Afghanistan syndrome", like our "Vietnam syndrome".
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)To me this looks like we just sat on our hands for too long. I do NOT want US ground troops in Syria, but we could have done a LOT more to combat ISIS than train a few dozen locals on how to shoot straight.
Do you know what Amb Stevens was doing? He was working with some Syrian rebels to train and arm them and he's dead. THe deadliest alliances are not always apparent.
PBO asked Congress for funding to deal with Syria and they refused.The president was not sitting on his hands as you allege.
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)I said "we sat on our hands too long". Not "Obama sat on his hands too long". The congress is the most representative form of the people... therefore "WE" sat on our hands too long.
Does congress bear some fault? Absolutely. Could Obama have ordered more airstrikes without them? Well, if he could order 100, why not 1,000? Anyway, I agree with most of what Stevenleser is saying. At least someone is taking out the trash, and if Assad stays in power, well that's better than letting ISIS run amok forever. Even if they aren't Russia's main target, they will get targeted to a degree.
Response to GummyBearz (Original post)
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davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Getting rid of ISIS isn't their top concern. Russia is protecting Assad.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)Putin wanted a private talk with Obama. Enemies before, kind of friendly after.
Both have a problem with Assad, but we can't touch him...not nice to kill leaders of other countries. No good will come of it.
Russia has been taking care of Assad, backing him up, etc., and might just be getting sick and tired of Assad's killings, and being the cause of every country on the planet taking refugees to get away from Assad, and that makes Russia unpopular.
So Russia trusts Obama, and Obama doesn't really trust Putin, but he's a strong believer in diplomacy - his and Putins...
Putin decides to take down Assad (dead or alive). Pilots from both countries have a celebration, then take out ISIS, They call back the refugees who nobody wanted anyway, and they get first class plane tickets to return.
Everybody now loves Russia - S. Arabia and all the other places who hated Assad. I bet even his troops didn't like him.
Wait and see.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)However since we are already in wars all over the planet, I guess we can give this one to Putin. We will find another war to keep the MIC fat and happy.
Besides, Putin is not there to beat ISIS...he is doing so to keep Assad in power imo. This is just more national building by superpowers...SSDD.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)None of that helped but I get what you are saying.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I mean, there is no trophy for sticking it out 'just because'. I am worried about the continuing unraveling going on all over the ME and Europe and Asia.
Mostly due to Bush policy whatever the fuck that was. The turd that can't be flushed.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)We know why, but what did we do? Well, we created the monster.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)If you want somebody who will fight to death against Hezbolla...you go after zealots.
Why would our friends create a monster?
The end of the Assad regime would sever Hezbollahs lifeline to Iran, eliminate a long-standing threat to Israel, bolster Lebanons sovereignty and independence, and inflict a strategic defeat on the Iranian regime. It would be a geopolitical success of the first order. More than all of the compelling moral and humanitarian reasons, this is why Assad cannot be allowed to succeed and remain in power: We have a clear national security interest in his defeat. And that alone should incline us to tolerate a large degree of risk in order to see that this goal is achieved.
http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2012/3/post-e460be36-c488-e7de-8c38-64c3751adfce
Jake Stern
(3,145 posts)led to every stripe of extremist feces floating to the surface why do we INSIST on toppling ANOTHER Middle Eastern asshole?
Westerners have the heart of a lion and the memory of a goldfish. We are so amped by idealism and wrapped up in perforating today's new, new Hitler that we appear to forget that actions have consequences. ISIS and it's ilk are a very real one that came from our meddling.
If folks have such seething hate for Assad then they're free to join their jihadist fellow travelers and do something about it.
They are not free, however, ask me to support the waste of even more blood and money to topple their bete noire.
Stay the fuck out of the Middle East. Stop giving arms and money to jihadists.