Nothing any Pope says has any relevance to US law.

[MineralMan]

Last edited Wed Sep 30, 2015, 02:16 PM - Edit history (1)

And that's the bottom line. He can hold any opinion he wishes, and he can meet with anyone he wishes. It's all meaningless when it comes to the laws of the United States and to rulings by our courts.

The Pope has no authority at all in this country. He's just another non-citizen who doesn't even have a single vote here. Whatever he said to Kim Davis about her objections to doing her job is meaningless, really. Our Supreme Court has ruled that people have a right to marry, and has ruled that the right exists in every state in this country. A federal judge in Kentucky has ruled that Kim Davis's county clerk's office must issue marriage licences to all people legally entitled to marry.

That's it. That's the law. Nothing the Pope says has any impact on that.

The Pope and his church cannot dictate anything to the United States. What he thinks and says is completely irrelevant with regard to any legal matter in this country.

[geek tragedy]

1. that goes for his puffery on economic justice and the environment as well nt

[MineralMan]

2. That's true. We can agree or disagree with his pronouncements,

but they are irrelevant to our laws. Like any other non-citizen, he's free to say what he wishes, and we're free to think he's wise or an idiot. We make our own laws here and set our own policies. We're not supposed to consider religious dogma when doing so, either.

Let the Pope say whatever he wishes. It's meaningless, really.

[nichomachus]

44. He never talked about economic justice

He talked about the lopsided economy, but made no recommendations on how to fix it.

He talked about the poor, but only in the context of charity -- not justice.

He talked about climate change, but failed to talk about overpopulation, which is a major cause of climate change.

He was invited to visit a home for LGBT youth, many of whom had been rejected by their Catholic parents so he could hear how they had suffered at the hands of his church's doctrine. He totally snubbed them.

However, he had time to meet with a woman who (1) took a solemn oath on the name of God and then broke it and continues to, (2) is am unrepentant serial adulteress, (3) is cohabitating with a man who, according to Catholic doctrine, is not her husband, and (4) who is committing theft on a regular basis by taking money under false pretenses.

The man is a total fraud.

Just ask yourself how supportive he'd be if a Catholic priest decided to "follow his conscience" and started to marry same-sex couples. I can tell you. The guy would be out the door on his as within 24 hours.

[tkmorris]

3. Which is why no one said it did

[MineralMan]

6. And yet, many people are all exercised about

this meeting between the Pope and Kim Davis. Why? It has nothing to do with what will actually happen. I don't care about Papal pronouncements, and there's no need for me to even bother with them.

And yet, many people appear to be very bothered. My post is a response to that.

[tkmorris]

47. Your post addressed the Pope's ability to affect Law

Yes, people have made hay of the meeting between His Royal Whatever and Ms. Davis, but it was not because anyone thought it would have any legal ramifications of any kind. Your OP misses the point by a country mile, which I am sure you were aware of when you made it.

[Rex]

42. When has that ever stopped a pointless thread from being made?

People like to be characters on this site.

[kelliekat44]

4. And i believe the Pope understands that. His impact is on the human spirit and no one can take

that away from him. Whether one agrees or doesn't agree with what is says or does.

[Arugula Latte]

8. Yes, he has had an impact on my human spirit as a woman by making it clear

that I'm a Second Class Citizen not entitled to equality nor autonomy over my body.

[MineralMan]

9. Actually, his impact on the human spirit is a mixed bag.

Most people are not Roman Catholics. For them, the Pope has little impact at all. I'm an atheist. No religious leader has any impact on my spirit.

I'm not interested in Papal pronouncements, and simply disregard them as irrelevant. You might feel otherwise. They affect nothing in the United States with regard to our laws. They can simply be disregarded.

[RKP5637]

55. Well said!!! n/t

[LynneSin]

39. Exactly. I'd like to think that the millions who heard him speak this past week...

will take away his message about trying to be better people in regards to helping the poor and treating immigrants better and doing more for the environment.

I never saw Pope Francis as a new leader for the US nor as the leader of a religion I wished to follow. I saw him as someone who could reach out to a very large population of the world to help spread a message that we can do better to help mankind and I hope people walked away with that message thinking they could do better. Help I hope that's why John Boehner figured he had to resign!

I know there will always be subject matters where I will disagree with Pope Francis but I respect him on many issues. He's probably one of the best Popes in recent history and could do a major push in moving the Catholic Church into the 21st Century. I also think with some of his messages it might be best if he hires a food tester just to be safe.

[IDemo]

5. Did he miss the 'render unto Caesar' reference in the bible?

[MineralMan]

11. No. He just ignored it. The Pope knows the Bible,

I'm sure. But, like everyone else, it's a book that contains a lot. We all pick and choose from it.

[IDemo]

14. That it contains a lot is certainly true

Whether a significant part of the content bears serious consideration by modern civilizations is another thing. But the 'render unto Caesar' bit is a pretty widely recognized passage and I doubt he can hide it in the lap drawer and pretend it has no relevance to this issue and others like it.

[joeybee12]

7. So?

Nobody here said it does. But he gave them a helluva lot of ammunition in the PR campaign.

[MineralMan]

10. Well, some here reacted with surprising zeal.

Strong language was used. My comment would be "Ignore the Pope." I would not suggest a sexual act with him. That seems out of proportion to a large degree.

[joeybee12]

15. I bet it was more of an F to his suppoprters...

For months there have been people talking about how different he is...he really isn't...the Popes have always been for the poor, and his stance on climate change is nothing new, either...he just has better PR and his fans don't want to admit how homophobic the church still is.

[MineralMan]

23. The Roman Catholic Church is homophobic.

It is also anti-choice when it comes to reproductive rights. It has been those things for quite some time. It's certain that this Pope will not change either dogma. Expecting such changes is foolishness. They will not occur.

Now, the RCC is for the poor, unless it's inconvenient for them to be. Ask the indigenous people who lived in California and southward into North and South America about that. This Pope just canonized Fr. Junipero Serra, who enslaved, killed, and almost eliminated entire tribes in California. That canonization indicates that the Church's concern for the poor is very conditional. That canonization ignores the history of the Roman Catholic Church as it assisted in the invasion of the western world. I was offended by it. I lived in Chumash territory most of my life. They and their culture were destroyed by the Roman Catholic Church. That is to be regretted.

In the United States, we have very wisely eliminated religious control of government. We need to pay attention and ensure that continues to be the case.

[The Traveler]

32. This ^^^^

Well said, MineralMan.

Trav

[skepticscott]

45. Can you really be that fucking naive?

"In the United States, we have very wisely eliminated religious control of government."

Our Congress is contolled by right wing Christian fundamentalists, as are many state legislatures, city councils and school boards. They regularly impose their beliefs on public policy and practice that affects everyone.

[MineralMan]

46. Then lets get Democrats to the polling places and change that.

GOTV! For pete's sake!

[skepticscott]

48. Why should we need to?

According to you, nothing any religious figure says has any influence on our laws, so there should be nothing to fight against, right?

[whatthehey]

12. But he does influence and energize millions, for better or worse

So when it's for worse, it may be worth a comment or two, no?

[MineralMan]

13. Sure. A comment or two.

[PeaceNikki]

16. Right, religious organization never try to interfere with US law!

Oh, wait...

[beam me up scottie]

19. And hey what about those Catholic hospitals here in the states! Heck of a job, Popie!

[SidDithers]

17. But people like Kim Davis think that Gawd's Law supercedes US Law...

And that's where the Pope's supposed "moral authority" could influence a whole bunch of other Kim Davises.

Sid

[MineralMan]

18. If they do, they will discover that they cannot

flaunt their disobedience to the law. It sometimes takes a bit of time, but that's what happens, in the end.

[0rganism]

20. naturally, his Holiness' influence didn't stop yesterday's execution

as i expect his influence and clear, direct statements to congress will have absolutely no impact on environmental or economic considerations in that esteemed body

[MineralMan]

25. A man hears what he wants to hear,

and disregards the rest.

So has it always been.

[sarisataka]

21. Please...

you are interrupting groupthink.

It is intriguing the parallels between the Pope's visit to the U.S. and when JFK met the Pope in '63. There was wild talk of how the Pope would dictate U.S. policy through JFK.

Now the President doesn't even need to be RC. All it takes is a couple interviews, maybe a meeting with a religious bigot, to overturn the Constitution and turn this country into a theocracy.

[MineralMan]

24. That's my job.

[spanone]

22. K&R...exactly

[LostOne4Ever]

26. Except that it does

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Because his followers try to legislate their religion.

Examples include prop 8 and politicians like Rick Santorum....a Catholic.[/font]

[MineralMan]

27. Proposition 8 has been overturned.

It took too long, but it has been overturned. We have both Liberal and Conservative legislators who are Roman Catholics. I give you Edward Kennedy as a counter to Rick Santorum.

More importantly, we have a Constitution. If we adhere to it faithfully, religion will not be the law of the land. That is why we are Democrats. That is why we must win elections. That is why we must stick together.

[LostOne4Ever]

43. And legislators like the Kennedy would never have gotten as far as they have

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]If not for people of all faiths banding together and demanding secular government and opposing religious institutions that try to get their beliefs turned into law.

Decrying the pope for his bigotry is a part of that tradition.

And adhering to the constitution depends on the type of politicians we put into office. Mind you, every single day that I use money in any shape or form I am confronted by a gigantic breach in that constitution.

But you are right. We need to stick together. And I will do that by uniting with the women, and LGBTQ part of the party and denouncing this man who promotes an agenda that hurts them. I won't throw them under the bus.

If members of my old church feel offended, instead of defending the man pushing the hateful agenda they can go to their priests and tell them to stop with the hatred. To take a permanent pen and mark out the passages of their holy book condemning innocent people.

They can pass along the message that this hateful doctrine has to go.[/font]

[beam me up scottie]

29. Straight men need to check their fucking privilege and stop lecturing us.

I am so sick of being told to stfu and sit down because what the pope says doesn't affect me.

No, it doesn't affect THEM.

It very much affects you and me, LO4E.

Thank you for standing up.

[treestar]

28. even the US citizen Catholics who really believe all that stuff

are in loser mode - they won't get the 1950s back.

[bigwillq]

30. Yup.

[moondust]

31. Isn't the Catholic Church the main reason

for the separation of church and state in the U.S.? Founding Fathers knew the troubled history of mixing church and state in Europe?

[Lordquinton]

33. So nothing he says about climate change means anything either?

His views on Poverty have no impact on our laws.

"The Pope and his church cannot dictate anything to the United States. What he thinks and says is completely irrelevant with regard to any legal matter in this country." Like our environmental laws.

[MineralMan]

35. If it did, many Republicans would change how they vote on

climate change issues. How likely do you suppose that is, really? People listen to what they want to hear and ignore all the rest. The Pope is also opposed to capital punishment. What do you think Republicans think about that position?

People hold the positions they hold for a variety of reasons. No Pope will change their minds. A Pope might reinforce their opinion, so his views on LGBT issues and reproductive choice are popular with right wingers, who will categorically reject his views about the environment and poverty.

The Pope is irrelevant to our political system.

[Lordquinton]

56. No, but his money does

The fight for LGBTQIA rights is far from over. How is your state in regards to trans rights? Bisexual recognition? Job security for non heterosexual citizens?

How about your neighboring states? How about his influence in other countries? Especially developing ones like in africa where their propaganda has compounded the aids epidemic on some african countries?

Or are you of the mindset that because you have secured your little space the reat of the world doesn't matter?

[beam me up scottie]

34. Check your privilege.

What the pope says does indeed affect millions of us.

Women and lgbt people are fighting for our lives.

Stop lecturing us about how to properly protest the people who declared war on us.

[MineralMan]

36. It does not affect our laws. We make those ourselves.

Laws interfering with the rights of women and LGBT Americans have not come from the Pope. They come from all sorts of mistaken religious beliefs and prejudices. That the Pope and the RCC agree with those awful laws is not the reason those laws exist.

I'm not lecturing anyone. I'm saying that the Pope is irrelevant. We make our laws. If we want to change those laws, we can. We can elect people who will act on our behalf. If we do that, things change. We have seen change occur recently with regard to LGBT rights, and freedom of reproductive choice is also the law of the land.

We can lose those changes, as well, if we are not vigilant in keeping them and making further improvements. We decide, not the Pope. If we work together, we can make further improvements. I suggest we do exactly that and let the Pope blather as he will.

The Pope is not the problem. Our inability to bring people to the polls is the problem. When we do, we win. So, let's do that and put our energy into doing that.

[beam me up scottie]

37. Prop 8/anti-abortion legislation-the RCC spends millions of dollars promoting its draconian policies

You and everyone else who refuses to acknowledge the fact that it uses its vast resources and influence to restrict human rights are part of the problem.

[MineralMan]

41. It did, and they lost. I saw it directly in Minnesota, where

the Archdiocese here spent millions trying to pass an anti-LGBT marriage amendment. The voters refused to enact it, and swept the Republicans out of the state legislature. The new legislature passed a marriage equality law the next year and it was signed by our Governor.

I was involved in both the rejection of the amendment and the passage of the marriage equality law. You can see what I was doing by looking at the link in my signature line and scrolling down. Despite the millions spent by the RCC, the people of Minnesota made their own decision, and many, many people helped to make that happen. A lot of hard work went into that effort, including my own hard work.

If we work together, we win. If we don't, then others win. That is the point of this thread. We needn't let outside forces dictate what we do in this country. We have the power to change things. But we must use that power and work together.

I'm not sure who you think I am, but civil rights, women's rights and LGBT rights are things I have been working on, too. Yes, I'm a straight man, but that doesn't mean I'm not helping. Go look at that link, please.

[PeaceNikki]

49. They win quite often, yeah, there's progress on the same-sex front, but people can still

lose their jobs in states for BEING gay.





Also, let's take a moment review the anti-choice laws, shall we?



[IMG][/IMG]
According to the Sunlight Foundation, which tracks legislative activity, states continue to introduce multiple restrictions related to abortion each day. Proposed legislation on the state level includes bills that would require women to watch anti-choice videos before they may proceed with an abortion, bills that would ban abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, bills that would restrict clinics’ ability to prescribe the abortion pill, and bills that would completely outlaw the most common surgical abortion procedure.

Many of those measures are based on model legislation written by anti-choice groups that specialize in pioneering new bills — like Americans United for Life, the National Right to Life Committee, and the Susan B. Anthony List. Having hundreds of pre-written bills on hand allows conservative lawmakers to submit a rash of legislation at the beginning of the session and see what manages to advance.
The states filing new abortion restrictions already heavily regulate the procedure. Missouri, for instance, is considering at least 10 different anti-abortion bills even though the state has just one clinic left that offers abortion services.

The current legislative activity won’t come as a surprise to reproductive rights proponents, who have been anticipating an onslaught of abortion restrictions in 2015. The most recent midterm elections handed significant victories to abortion opponents, allowing Republicans to pick up enough seats to maintain control of nearly 70 chambers in states across the country. In some states, anti-abortion lawmakers now have enough power to approve abortion bills that were vetoed by their governor last year.

more at link and like 75000 other sources: http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/02/11/3621701/states-abortion-bills-introduced-2015/

I echo, bmus' "check your privilege" comment.

I do encourage you to read this: http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/updates/

[skepticscott]

50. And let's not forget

the RCC's odious opposition to any sort of right-to-die legislation.

Those are MY fucking rights that the pope and his minions keep blocking.

[PeaceNikki]

51. Absolutely. Thank you for that reminder.

[Curmudgeoness]

38. Just like what the Jews say has no relevance to "US law".

But a lot of the decisions that our lawmakers come up with are influenced by religions. Don't be too cavalier in brushing any of this off.

[mmonk]

40. Very true. So there is no reason to

reject his economic arguments over gay marriage or abortion or vice versa.

[PeaceNikki]

52. There can be no economic justice without equality.

[GummyBearz]

53. Thanks for clearing that up

I thought there was a 4th branch of government which the pope was in charge of... I am very relieved to hear this is not the case

[Bluenorthwest]

54. Obviously religion seeks to influence government. Also obviously many people on DU have been

attempting to use the Pope as some sort of liberal litmus test when he's anti choice and anti gay. It's a dishonest use of the man and many people on DU have been trying to push it. One of them just told me that the Pope's critics are worshipers of Jamie Dimon. So that shit has to be answered because after the slurs worse comes. You have to stop them when they start maligning and insisting that their preachers are political metrics for all. It has to be answered.

[MineralMan]

57. I haven't been doing that.

For me, the Pope is a non-entity in my life. He is irrelevant to me. There are so many issues. I can try to change one or two at a time. That's it. Sometimes it works ou and sometimes not, but it doesn't involve the Pope. It has involved the local Archdiocese, and that one was won. Minnesota achieved marriage equality in 2013, and I helped with that. I'm limited in time and in energy. This year, it is trying to get a Democrat elected as President, and maybe flipping MN CD2. That's what I'll be doing.

Other people have other priorities. I choose mine and work on them. They may not be the same as yours. I wish you every success with your priorities.

[Warren Stupidity]

58. The RCC was one of the key players in the Hobby Lobby case.

That USSC decision changed US law. The RCC was a key backer of prop-8 in California. Your op is ridiculously uninformed, and your attempts to minimize the effects of the homophobic and misogynist bigotry of the RCC on the laws of this country are offensive.