Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

onehandle

(51,122 posts)
Thu Oct 1, 2015, 01:56 PM Oct 2015

Was Pope Francis Actually Swindled into Meeting Kim Davis?

​I spent a little time Wednesday night examining my conscience, as we used to say around the ol' confessional, as regards the meeting between Papa Francesco and noted civic layabout Kim Davis. This contemplation was prompted by two things: first, an e-conversation I had with someone who had been part of the papal travelling party and second, the appearance of E. J. Dionne on Lawrence O'Donnell's show on MSNBC. According to the first person, there were a great number of people during the pope's tour who were simply hustled in and out for informal private audiences. According to Dionne, the meeting between Davis and the pope was brokered by Archbishop Carlo Vigano, the papal nuncio to the United States at whose residence the pope stayed during his time in Washington, which is when the meeting took place. Together, these facts set off my Spidey Sense about Vatican chicanery.

Before we continue, let us stipulate a few things. First of all, let us stipulate that there are more than a few members of the Church's permanent bureaucracy, both within the Clan Of The Red Beanie and without, who are not happy that this gentleman got elected Pope, and who are not happy with what he's done and said since he was. Second, let us stipulate that many members of this group are loyal to both former pope Josef Ratzinger and, through him, to the memory (and to what they perceive as the legacy) of John Paul II who, for good and ill, had a much different idea of how to wield a papacy than Papa Francesco does. Third, let us stipulate that this opposition to the current pope has been active and vocal, to say nothing of paranoid. Finally, let us stipulate that, for over 2000 years, the Vatican has been a hotbed of intrigue, betrayal, and sanctified ratfcking on a very high scale. (It also has been a hotbed of, well, hot beds, but that's neither here nor there at the moment.) So, if you're one of these people, and you're looking to ratfck the pope's visit to the United States, and to his agenda in general, you'd be looking to put him in a box. So, how would you do that?

Here's what I'd do. I'd arrange for the pope to meet Davis, but not as an American culture war celebrity, but as a devout Christian whose faith is under vague assault. (I would not mention the three marriages or the fact that she took an oath before god to do her job. I mean, why burden the poor old fella with details, right?) I'd shuffle her through the process and she gets some vague words of encouragement from the pope, who otherwise doesn't know her from any other hick who gets sent his way. I'd sit on the news for the entire rest of the pope's trip, even enlisting Davis's publicity-hungry legal team in that effort.

However, as the pope is preparing to go wheels-up in Philadelphia, I'd get the word to a reporter – say, Terry Moran of ABC. On the plane ride home, Moran would ask the pope a vague question about "religious liberty," without mentioning Davis's name, which seems a curious omission for a veteran journalist to make. The pope again would give a fairly anodyne answer about freedom of conscience with which nobody can disagree. Then, with the pope safely back in Rome, I'd leak the news to a conservative Catholic website and wait for the inevitable explosion. (Implicit in this strategy are two facts: a) that the pope doesn't know who Davis is or the facts of her situation, and b) that the Vatican press office will resort to its default position of clumsy semi-stonewalling when the story breaks.) When it comes, lo and behold, Kim Davis gets to give an exclusive interview to ABC, the same network that employs the reporter who asked the question on the airplane. But to pull this off, I'd need someone with serious clout within the Church bureaucracy. And this is where Vigano comes in.

The man is a real player within the institutional church. He first came to prominence as a whistleblower during one of the several investigations of the Vatican Bank, which may be what got him exiled to this godless Republic in the first place. Despite that fact, Vigano is well-known to be a Ratzinger loyalist and he always has been a cultural conservative, particularly on the issue of marriage equality. In April, in a move that was unprecedented, Vigano got involved with an anti-marriage equality march in Washington sponsored by the National Association For Marriage. (And, mirabile dictu, as we say around Castel Gandolfo at happy hour, one of the speakers at this rally was Mat Staver, who happens now to be Kim Davis's lawyer.) In short, Vigano, a Ratzinger loyalist, who has been conspicuous and publicly involved in the same cause as Kim Davis and her legal team, arranges a meeting with Davis that the legal team uses to its great public advantage. Once again paraphrasing New Orleans lawyer Lamar Parmentel from The Big Easy, the Vatican is a marvelous environment for coincidence.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a38440/pope-francis-swindled-kim-davis-meeting

I believe he was set up, and once it got to a certain point, he wouldn't get out of it, because he's too nice of a guy.

16 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

roguevalley

(40,656 posts)
8. apparently this was arranged by a right winged red neck bishop(?) Cardinal(?) that is
Thu Oct 1, 2015, 04:13 PM
Oct 2015

being taken from his post but got this done on the sly. they were discussing it last night on the news shows. They're chasing it down. It would appear that Frances was fed a story.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
2. The facts of Francis's history with the US religious right makes this story seem pretty silly.
Thu Oct 1, 2015, 02:06 PM
Oct 2015

Who 'swindled' him into the 3 day anti marriage equality conference the Vatican held in Rome last November? Who 'swindled' his Vatican into inviting Family Research Council and Tony Perkins to their own house? The devil?
Vatican Strengthens Ties with Evangelicals and Mormons Against Gay Marriage
http://time.com/3597245/vatican-evangelicals-mormons-gay-marriage/


I don't expect that you will read it. On Friday Davis got an award from FRC and Tony Perkins, who have been invited guests of Francis' Vatican at anti gay cofab within the year. 'Oh, but how could Davis possibly meet Francis? How ever could that happen?'

This is getting old and tired and it makes those pushing it look like they are aggressively refusing to learn the facts.

LynneSin

(95,337 posts)
10. He came out in favor of Conscious Objectors
Thu Oct 1, 2015, 04:49 PM
Oct 2015

And never said anything specific towards Kim Davis. Which means he also validate those who might oppose wars because of religious beliefs, which I also think is very valid.

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
13. How can you contort it into that when this is what he was asked?
Thu Oct 1, 2015, 05:22 PM
Oct 2015

"Do you … support those individuals, including government officials, who say they cannot in good conscience, their own personal conscience, abide by some laws or discharge their duties as government officials, for example when issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples?"

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
16. Because this was the answer to that question.
Thu Oct 1, 2015, 06:08 PM
Oct 2015
He did not refer specifically to Davis in his reply, saying: "I can't have in mind all the cases that can exist about conscientious objection … but yes, I can say that conscientious objection is a right that is a part of every human right. It is a right. And if a person does not allow others to be a conscientious objector, he denies a right."

It's hardly an encyclical. He was holding onto the luggage compartment at the time.
 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
14. And I note you make no comment about the information rich link I posted.
Thu Oct 1, 2015, 05:22 PM
Oct 2015

What we get instead is a bit of word parsing.

Beartracks

(12,801 posts)
5. Side effect: Some DUers say they've "lost respect' for the Pope.
Thu Oct 1, 2015, 02:42 PM
Oct 2015

Could this also be an unintended -- or perhaps intentional? -- consequence of the visit? That is, to erode support for this popular Pope from non-Christians and liberal Catholics by having him meet with the current darling of the conservative right?

================

LynneSin

(95,337 posts)
11. If I only supported people who support 100% of my ideas it would be a very lonely room
Thu Oct 1, 2015, 04:56 PM
Oct 2015

I still like this guy.

I suspect that while in DC a stream of people were brought in which included Kim Davis. I highly doubt that the Pope knew who she was but was probably kind to her. He's a religious person and supports religion. But during his time here in the United States he has not put anti-Abortion stance nor Anti-LGBT support at a very high support. When the Pope was given a very high profile microphone many many times it seems he stuck with 3 major topics - Income equality (taking better care of the poor), respect and helping the immigrants and doing something about climate change. This included when he spoke in front of Congress and the UN General Assembly. He also made it a point to shake only the hand of one person in Congress, John Kerry, a Catholic who was denied communion because of his Pro-choice stance. The Pope also demote a high ranking priest who is a hardline against the LGBT community.

Will I convert to Catholicism because of him? Hell no. I don't even go to Church on Sunday but I do define myself as Christian. I just don't buy into organized religion.

If he continues with his message about the Income Equality, Immigration and Climate Change then I think this Pope can do some major and positive change to this country. Even Bernie Sanders had positive things to say about this Pope and trust me I highly doubt Bernie is going to convert any time soon. He's just like me and respects when someone has the right message to say when given the microphone.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Was Pope Francis Actually...