A Massive National Security Leak Just Blew the Lid Off Obama's Drone War

[Catherina]

A Massive National Security Leak Just Blew the Lid Off Obama's Drone War

The Intercept just published a huge expose of the Pentagon's drone program.

—By AJ Vicens and Max J. Rosenthal
| Thu Oct. 15, 2015 4:25 PM EDT





On Thursday, the Intercept published a major package of stories that reveals the inner workings of the US military's drone program, including how and why people are targeted for assassination on the amorphous battlefields of Yemen, Somalia, and other countries. "The Drone Papers," according to the Intercept, is based on a trove of a classified documents leaked by a whistleblower who grew concerned by the government's methods of targeting individuals for lethal action.

"This outrageous explosion of watchlisting—of monitoring people and racking and stacking them on lists, assigning them numbers, assigning them 'baseball cards,' assigning them death sentences without notice, on a worldwide battlefield—it was, from the very first instance, wrong," the source said.

The package is a deep look into how the US military has conducted its counterterrorism operations around the world, and it comes on the same day that President Barack Obama cited the counterterrorism mission against Al Qaeda as one of the two reasons to keep nearly 10,000 soldiers in Afghanistan for at least another year.

Amnesty International called for an immediate congressional inquiry into the drone program, saying the leaked documents "raise serious concerns about whether the USA has systematically violated international law, including by classifying unidentified people as 'combatants' to justify their killings."

The entire series is worth your time, so please go read it. But for now, here are some key takeaways:

- The US government kills a lot of people who aren't military targets.
...

- Obama had to sign off on each target, but he didn't know when or where the military might strike.
...

- And the target itself might not even be a person:
...

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/10/obama-intercept-drone-papers-project-kill-list

[Maedhros]

1. The Obama Administration's normalization of the use of assassination to circumvent due process

is inexcusable.

[hifiguy]

2. 90%+ of what people were outraged about

when Little Boots did it became just duckies and bunnies when Obama continued the vast majority of it.

I abhor hypocrites.

[LittleBlue]

3. +1

This forum fractures over just about anything, but this was one fight I never expected to have. We were unanimous about secret killings and torture during chimpy's reign.

[mhatrw]

4. But when Pepsi does it is fine! It's only when Coke does it that it becomes bad! nt

[Catherina]

9. Especially if Pepsi manipulates the numbers so people can cheer the killing

"To manipulate drone numbers, Obama admin calls all victims "enemies killed in action" when their identity is unknown" - Glenn Greenwald

[malaise]

112. International law is for losers

America is keeping Americans safe by killing anyone in their way.

It's too sad

[RKP5637]

130. In my lifetime it's become a pathetic country in so many ways. Not all, but a lot especially

with this type of shit.

[hifiguy]

160. It has become very much like the late Roman Empire-

vastly imperial, run for the benefit of the few, and utterly corrupt in every way it is possible to be corrupt.

I wonder who will be the Huns, Visigoths and Vandals to America's rapidly-decaying Imperial Rome.

[RKP5637]

166. Stretched so thin, propping up the empire, while the homeland slowly rots. n/t

[Catherina]

15. What a sad statement.

Personally I have NOTHING in common with anyone who thinks this is ok or tries to whitewash it and I'm not going to pretend I do.

[leftstreet]

5. +1

[Catherina]

6. "a video game, drained of all humanity" How *cool* (barf)

"These docs illustrate what a video game, drained of all humanity, these drone assassinations have become" - Glenn Greenwald

Here's what the terror watchlist looks like at drone operators' game console:

jeremy scahill @jeremyscahill
You just delete algorithms and numbers from the earth and then get a good night sleep...
https://twitter.com/jeremyscahill/status/654643307365179392

[Catherina]

7. In 5-month period of a US op in Afghanistan, nearly 90% of people killed were not the targets

In one 5-month period of a US operation in Afghanistan, nearly 90% of people killed were not the intended targets

I thank the Intercept for calling this what it is- a vicious assassination program.

+1 to your post

[Downwinder]

12. You think Obama has any control over the MIC?

[hifiguy]

17. Complete, absolutely not.

No president has had that kind of control over the Military-Industrial-Intelligence Complex since November 22, 1963. But enough to be meaningful at the margins. That innocent people are still being killed by the scores every month means he simply doesn't give a shit.

[zeemike]

24. And we don't give a shit either.

(not you and I but us in general)
Because we have the first black president we dare not call him out for it for fear of looking like a racist....so our silence is consent.

How easy it is to manipulate things by turning their good nature against them.

[jwirr]

151. And it doesn't even matter that the people we are killing are

poc.

I have said this before. I do not understand why President Obama does a lot of the things he does - like this and TPP and ACA instead of single payer healthcare. But I hope that one of the first things he does when he leaves the WH is write a book explaining why he led us to believe that he was going to be different.

[Downwinder]

43. I don't think anybody who was not totally subservient

to the MIC would be allowed to be President. I see little change in the policies of the last five Administrations. The President is window dressing.

[salib]

125. No one who appears to even have a chance to win the Presidency

Is planning to end the drone program. Not one.

We have a long way to go.

[hedda_foil]

146. I'd peg it at FDR's death in 1944.

The end of WWII at the latest.

[Catherina]

22. Baseball cards for Obama to decide who lives or dies

President Obama is given ‘baseball cards’ which have a suspect’s portrait and the key allegations against them on them to help him make up his mind.

The President takes on average 58 days to sign off on a kill and from there the US military has 60 days to carry it out.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3274583/US-spy-chiefs-hunt-new-Snowden-Whistleblower-leaks-secret-drone-assassination-program-reveals-Obama-authorizies-kill.html

"‘This outrageous explosion of watchlisting — of monitoring people and racking and stacking them on lists, assigning them numbers, assigning them ‘baseball cards,’ assigning them death sentences without notice, on a worldwide battlefield — it was, from the very first instance, wrong’." - The anonymous whistleblower who blew the lid on this obscenity.

[BeanMusical]

53. This is so cynical and horrible.

[Caretha]

65. This is so cynical

horrible, illegal, nauseating, disgusting, satanically evil....did I mention vomit inducing.....

Oh My God! What Have We Become?

i fear we have become good little citizens

[hifiguy]

69. It's about MONEY.

MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT.

KNEEL when the Holy Word is spoken, pigs.

[Caretha]

77. I know hifiguy

I've read every single post of yours on this thread. Fortunately or unfortunately I've known what you say is true and I've known it for a long while...

at one time I thought it was all about money too, now I think it is much more than that. I'll continue to mull it over, and I dare not say right now what I believe the other ingredients are, besides money.

[Luminous Animal]

85. It's about control. Feed people's fear in the west. Control populations with terror

wherever we want to dominate. Break up all of our natural tendencies to communicate and commiserate with our brothers and sisters. Break down our innate propensity to create community in a global platform world.

When more than 2 black people meet on a corner, they must be planning a crime. When more than 2 people meet in an eastern nation, they must be planning terrorism.

How do you keep populations from exercising collective power through peaceful means.. stop and frisk them… shoot them… target and drone them. Make them feel that not one single second of their lives is safe.

[hedda_foil]

149. I agree. And power, of course, which requires control.

[jwirr]

152. And continue to complain about Russia if they do anything.

[salib]

126. It's good to be the king.

Execution...execution...execution...

[philosslayer]

52. If the President ordered the drone strikes to stop, then they would stop

Period. He's the Commander in Chief. If someone disobeys his orders, he removes them, and has them prosecuted if necessary.

[Downwinder]

55. Is Gitmo closed?

[philosslayer]

56. The CIC doesn't have the authority to close military facilities

Thats a congressional responsibility. The CIC does however direct military offensive actions. There is a difference.

[Downwinder]

75. Fair enough. The CIC does have authority over

what detachments are stationed at a base. Has the detention unit been transferred elsewhere?

[salib]

128. Transferring the detention center is unlikely to end any of problems

That one is trying to end by closing the facilities at Gitmo. So, no, they do not appear to be transferred.

[Travis_0004]

84. Yes

He is the commander in chief.

Nobody is going to consult him on an indivual low profile mission, but he has control over individual policies and how to handle things like drone strikes and even how often to use them.

[merrily]

20. +1

[bvar22]

155. Obama did not just "continue" the Drone Assassination program.

He enhanced it, expanded it, made secret assassinations with no oversight or due process legal with the NDAA, stamped it with the Democratic Party Endorsement, and spread the Drone Wars to other countries.

[marym625]

168. + a bazillion

We're a menace to the world. And that includes ourselves.

Just waiting for the militarized police to start targeting "known gang members" in the same manner

[Fast Walker 52]

173. the drone war is evil, pure and simple

This along with the Syrian war and the Afghanistan war sickens me. The whole Obama presidency is overshadowed by these massively immoral policies. Fuck war, fuck the war on terror.

[jalan48]

8. And Obama seemed so promising with the 'Hope and Change" slogan.

Looks like the MIC sat him down and told him how things really operate.

[Catherina]

10. Thankfully we have whistleblowers of conscience who take the *Change* part seriously

Last edited Thu Oct 15, 2015, 07:36 PM - Edit history (1)

[jalan48]

14. You are right-thanks for sharing.

Our government changed many years ago. This is how we operate these days regardless of who we elect President. The powers behind the scenes are more powerful than that one person.

[hifiguy]

18. Every Democratic president, beginning with LBJ

has been told, I have no doubt, that if they try and push their authority too far and actually think because they are President their word is the last word., what happened to the Kennedys just might happen to them, too. And they have also been told who will do it.

And, with the benefit of hindsight, Obama's campaign was based on letting him appear to be a truly progressive alternative even though he was exquisitely careful not to make any clear policy promises. That campaign let us project upon him whatever WE wanted to believe. And we fell for it. A masterstroke of cynicism. I knew the game had been rigged the minute he announced the Geithner and Clinton appointments. And I am as guilty as anyone. I voted for him with tremendous enthusiasm in '08. In '12 I voted for him because he was not Mitt RMoney.

Both Clinton and Obama took progressives and liberals out into the schoolyard and pantsed us in front of everyone. We were had, chumped, snookered, taken and screwed.

[jalan48]

21. Yep-which makes a lot of this election stuff 'pretend'.

There are big differences between the parties except when it comes to the Secret Security State. Which really begs the question of whether someone like Sanders will ever get even close to being President.

[Catherina]

25. The PTB are firmly against him

so it will be interesting to see if democracy can prevail. Even if Sanders gets in there, I don't expect him to make major changes. He goes along with a few too many of their adventures though he's still eons better than the others. If Sanders gets in and IF we keep pushing, things might change. But imo it's going to take more whistleblowers, more protests, more disobedience and more refusals to play along with their politics.

I'm going to do all I can to help Sanders get in there, just to get the conversation really started.

[tex-wyo-dem]

136. Actually, I was greatly disappointed during...

The debate that when asked if he would continue the drone program, Sanders said yes. Seems even he received the 'memo'

[jalan48]

138. I think there would be a coup d'etat if a President went against the military at this point.

I'm sure all the candidates know this. It's more 'pretend' stuff about how our government works.

[hifiguy]

169. There WAS a coup d'etat when a President

went against the MIC and the CIA. In Dallas, 11.22.1963.

[merrily]

23. I very much doubt that. By now, someone who had left office would have made a deathbed confession

or written it down somewhere "to be opened 25 years after my death" or something.

Even if it were so, there would be ways to make sure it did not happen. 8 years is a long time for a brain trust to figure out something. Or that it did not happen to the next President.

IMO, this is a story that relieves Presidents of responsibility.

[hifiguy]

28. There is a Permanent Government

that is absolutely and completely insulated from the will of the people. We do not even know who these people are and that is just the way they want it. And its only purpose is to perpetuate itself and its founding institutional ideas, the first of which is 'America must control the world by whatever means possible.'

See Michael Glennon's "National Security and Double Government." One of the most chilling and depressing books I have ever read. Or Steven Kinzer's "The Brothers" a dual biography of Allen and Foster Dulles, the Founding Fathers of Double Government. Or almost any of Octafish's superb posts. It IS real.

[merrily]

29. That does not really address my post.

[hifiguy]

35. If Jimmy Carter doesn't, no one will.

There is far too much money to be made by playing TPTB's game. See the Clintons. It's easier and MUCH more lucrative to turn into Sgt Schultz.

Though I doubt any Democratic president since Jimmy Carter had to be directly threatened. And Carter was defeated in large part because he refused to escalate the Iranian hostage episode to a full-blown military crisis. For his troubles he got monkeywrenched by Bush Senior and old spymaster Bill Casey.

Clinton and Obama were firmly in the coat pockets of the neo-cons and their agenda from the get-go. You can bet your last dime that HRH is as well. She knows what is expected of her and will be happy to deliver.

[merrily]

59. Yeah, I'm still thinking it would have happened by now. It's been over 50 years.

That's a lot of people who died without confessing. Doesn't have to be a President.

[hifiguy]

63. The really professional spooks take their secrets to their graves.

And no pressure would ever have been applied to Nixon, Raygun, or the Bush Crime Family representatives. It is their agenda, after all. No arms would need to be twisted. I exclude Ford because the spook community was in disarray post Vietnam and under serious fire during his administration, primarily from the Church Committee. Which is why Bush the Elder was appointed as CIA director - to control the damage.

[merrily]

110. Not 50 years worth. By now, someone would have had a change of heart, been remorseful, been ticked

off, told a brother or a spouse...something. I'm sorry, hifiguy, I just can't buy it. Not all those people for all these years.

[jwirr]

153. Plus each of those presidents had families.

[AngryAmish]

116. American Deep State

[hifiguy]

159. Yup.

An it has come to control virtually all of the decisions relating to war and peace and it is behind the TPP just as it was behind NAFTA. The Deep State is controlled solely by the plutocracy.

[LiberalArkie]

143. I don't think so. Even the most idealistic person becoming president over time will

succumb to the power. I have seen people I used to work for who, when younger would help the poor people, help carry food to the homeless, etc move up the corporate ranks to become the people they despised early on.

I am sure the same thing happens in congress and at the Whitehouse. And then I tend to believe that even before the person is elected that the NSA and other agencies have so much crap on them and family members that it becomes far better to just play the game and take the perks than rock the boat and maybe loose family or friends.

[merrily]

145. It didn't have to be a President, though.

[LiberalArkie]

147. True

[merrily]

174. A number of people would have had to be involved at all times. Five, ten, fifteen--some number.

During fifty years, none of them came clean, confided in a spouse or significant other, a son or daughter, a friend, made an anonymous leak to anyone in the media, left a sealed document to be opened 10, 20 or 30 years after his death, etc. I can't buy it. And by "it," I mean this notion that every new President since JFK has been told he will will be killed unless he plays along.

[erronis]

148. Keeping this information totally secret would be impossible.

I agree. Also, the triumvirate/cabal/MIC/whatever would be controlled by fallible humans. Even tho they might be high and mighty and sign oaths of silence, they will make mistakes, sleep with the wrong person, get drunk and tell someone about part of the plot.

Yes, there are groups that exercise inordinate power and want to continue/grow this. Some of them are probably at counter-points with others. Yes, the people's voice has shrunk in importance - purposefully.

But I don't believe Murdoch, Carlyle, HRH, and all the Putins/etc. in the world can be coerced into a single conspiracy under omertà.

[still_one]

26. BS. Expansion of Vietnam Nam was Johnson's policy

guns and butter, and Kennedy made quite a few blunders based on the domino principle which he subscribed to

[hifiguy]

31. Johnson was leaned on very heavily to create a large-scale war in Vietnam.

By the Joint Chiefs (who desperately wanted Total Nnclear War with the USSR over the Cuban Missile Crisis, which is a well-documented fact) and especially the CIA.

My personal thought is that LBJ gave them their war in return for TPTB not stopping the Great Society. Cutting deals like that was Johnson's specialty for years as Senate Majority Leader.

[still_one]

48. We are going to disagree. No one pushed LBJ around

[truebluegreen]

76. Except the Vietnam morass did stop the Great Society

or at least its funding. It was intended to end poverty and racial injustice. Did OK on the first part, for white people especially. But other programs not so much: the War on Poverty was not intended to be just a better safety net, but that is all that survived the war's demands. A win-win for conservatives: they got the $$$ for their warmongering pals, and got to claim ever after that the government's War on Poverty was a failure etc etc etc.

I agree that this is the sort of bargain Johnson would make, but if he did he was outflanked.

[merrily]

34. Go back to Truman, who fought the "Korean Police Action" and began funding Vietnam after the french

said, "Screw this. We're outta here." Kennedy then started sending "military advisors" to, you know, train the Vietnamese so that they could fight without out us. Excact same crap we tried in Iraq and Afghanistan.

When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

[hifiguy]

37. It seems to be generally accepted consensus that JFK

had every intention of removing all US military personnel from Vietnam after the '64 election. He made the comment to numerous people, including his close aide/friend Ken O'Donnell, who have recounted it to reputable historians, Arthur Schlesinger among them.

Which was one more reason certain elements of the Permanent Government wanted him gone ASAP, which reasons included his mutual efforts with Nikita Khrushchev to reduce US-USSR tensions (and Khrushchev'e hard line enemies in the Kremlin ousted him less than a year after Kennedy's assassination) and careful, indirect openings to Castro.

[merrily]

58. Jackie thought "Texas businessmen" had him killed.

Who knows? Could have been Halliburton.

[hifiguy]

61. The most convincing evidence to me that the CIA

was involved at some level was that Allen Dulles, who in his position as CIA Director lied Kennedy into signing off on the Bay of Pigs, and was immediately and unceremoniously thereafter fired for it by JFK himself, was on the Warren Commission.

Dulles' specialty was the removal of leaders he and his cronies among the plutocracy found to be impediments to doing business in the way in which they wished. Mossadegh, Arbenz, Lumemba. All were removed or killed at the behest and on the order of Allen Dulles.

The dots are closer together than muons and pions in the Large Hadron Collider.

[happyslug]

87. JFK approved the Assassination of Diem, and that meant we were going into Vietnam big time.

Remember Diem was killed on November 2, 1963, three weeks BEFORE JFK was assassinated and it is clear that Diem assassination was coup:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngo_Dinh_Diem

Now Diem was a politician the ruling elite of the US love, in 1955 he received 600,000 votes from the 450,000 people who voted in the election to win the Presidency of South Vietnam (yes, 600,000 votes from 450,000 voters, you do the math). Diem had three things going for him, first he was Anti-Communist, second he spoke English, third he was Catholic (His family had been Catholic since the 1600s). The last factor may sound strange, but the Portuguese had introduced Catholicism into Vietnam in the 1600s and the Catholic were favored by the French when France ruled Vietnam. Thus for at least 300 years many of the native elites of Vietnam had embraced Catholicism and it became almost a ruling clique in South Vietnam. Diem's bother became Bishop of Hue, but never returned from Vatican II, which Diem's Brother was attending when Diem was killed.

More on Bishop Ngô Đình Thục, Diem's Brother:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ng%C3%B4_%C4%90%C3%ACnh_Th%E1%BB%A5c

Diem's Nephew later became Bishop of Saigon (Just days before it fell to the Communists) and a Cardinal in the Catholic Church:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguy%E1%BB%85n_V%C4%83n_Thu%E1%BA%ADn

11% of Ho Chi Minh City is still Catholic (Given that 70-90% of the population of Vietnam is Buddhist that is an achievement):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Ho_Chi_Minh_City

Now, Diem was a master Politican, he used his fellow Catholics as his power base but the evaluatution of him was done by Ho Chi Minh when Ho heard of the Coup:

Upon learning of Diệm's ouster and assassination, Hồ Chí Minh reportedly stated: "I can scarcely believe the Americans would be so stupid."[76] The North Vietnamese Politburo was more explicit:

"The consequences of the 1 November coup d'état will be contrary to the calculations of the U.S. imperialists ... Diệm was one of the strongest individuals resisting the people and Communism. Everything that could be done in an attempt to crush the revolution was carried out by Diệm. Diệm was one of the most competent lackeys of the U.S. imperialists ... Among the anti-Communists in South Vietnam or exiled in other countries, no one has sufficient political assets and abilities to cause others to obey. Therefore, the lackey administration cannot be stabilized. The coup d'état on 1 November 1963 will not be the last."[76]

Sorry, Ho Chi Minh was right, Diem was the person keeping South Vietnam from falling to the Communiusts. He had problems with the Buddhist (for his anti-Buddhist and pro Catholic promotions of Army Officers in addition to people within the Government AND for his tendency to give any aid he received to Catholic Rural Villages).

Please note, he saw his fellow Catholics as his power base, his supporters, much like Ho Chi Minh saw the Communists as Ho's power base and supporters. Religion by itself was secondary, it was the fact he and his family's power based was within the Catholic Minority was why he was able to resist the Communists as well as he did. Yes, he was crooked, but he made sure his supporters received support from him, thus he had a power base, weaker then the Communists but capable of stopping the Communists till he was killed.

As to JFK. JFK said before his own assassination three weeks later, that he had planned the Coup to include the exile of Diem, but when the Presidential palace was taken over it was clear the coup plotters wanted him dead (Diem had to much support within the Country AND within the Army to live, to many people owned Diem favors that they feared would NOT continue under the new rulers and thus would support a counter coup by Diem, if Diem was still alive to do a counter coup). LBJ had voice opposition to the coup when it came up in Cabinet Meetings (LBJ is quoted to have said "You do not kill friends", but LBJ had little power as Vice President in JFK's presidency so LBJ's opposition to the coup could not stop the coup).

Sorry, Ho had it right, Diem's death lead to chaos in South Vietnam that required American Intervention. The only way Diem's assassination makes sense is if JFK had already agreed to send in troops to Vietnam. LBJ would wait till 1965 to send in those troops, but that appears to have been the plan from the start, leave the country's military situation deteriorated and whoever succeeds Diem will do what Diem said he would NEVER do, ask for American Troops. Diem knew that US Troops in Vietnam would look like the French Troops in Vietnam prior to 1954, as an invading force even by Vietnamese people who opposed the Communists, like Diem's fellow Catholics. Thus US Troops would enhance the Viet Cong's image as patriots, and whoever is ruling South Vietnam, American's Running Dogs (To use a phase from the time period). That would lead to the over throw of his Government sooner or later thus Diem OPPOSED American Troops in Vietnam (aid, advisors, yes, actual troops NO).

In a nutshell, when JFK approved the Coup against Diem, JFK committed himself to sending in US Troops. JFK may have said other things to other people, but JFK"s action in approving the Coup clearly shows JFK wanted to send in US Troops into South Vietnam. To claim otherwise is to ignore Diem's death and that coup, and go strictly by what JFK said to people who wanted to hear that the US was NOT going into Vietnam. Most politicians will say to people what they think that person wants to hear, JFK was no different from any other politician, thus go by JFK's action not his words and JFK's action in approving the coup against Diem, meant the US was committed to sending in troops.

Now, people have mentioned JFK's withdraw of advisors for Christmas. Given the large population of Catholics in Vietnam, Christmas was a holiday among both US Troops and many Vietnamese. As a general rule both sides laid down arms before Christmas and did not take them back up til after the Chinese New Year was over (the Tet Offensive of 1968 was an exception to that rule, but the US had intelligence something was up in 1968, but decided to see what happened before doing anything, in previous years, no such intelligence was found so even the US would send advisor's home for that time period, starting in the late 1950s and continuing till the fall of South Vietnam). I bring this up, for JFK's order withdrawing those advisors from Vietnam in late 1963, was something JFK and even Eisenhower had done in previous years, thus it meant nothing but that everything was "Normal" in war torn South Vietnam in 1963.

Now, if JFK thought he was going to solve the problem of Vietnam by removing Diem he was a fool (and JFK was no fool). Such a plot would have been an issue in the 1964 Campaign, AND no President would oppose what the Majority of American people wanted and in 1964 the Majority of Americans supporting sending in troops to Vietnam if that what was needed to stop the Communists. The majority of Americans had that attitude till the middle of 1968, it is only in the summer of 1968 that most American switched to opposing the war in Vietnam. Thus JFK could NOT leave South Vietnam fall for the same reason LBJ could not leave South Vietnam fall, it would be another "Who lost China" campaign used against JFK and whoever would have been the Democratic Presidential Candidate in 1968. Thus JFK could NOT leave South Vietnam fall and that was what was going to happen due to the assassination of Diem.

Now, the North Vietnamese were NOT prepared for the death of Diem, they were shocked that JFK would be so stupid as to kill off Diem. While the North Vietnamese were unprepared, they reacted quickly, forming the Viet Cong into Battalions in 1964 (Previous to that time period the Viet Cong only operated on Company size basis). Do to that change in tactics, the US had to send in the 1s brigade of the 101st Air Mobile unit with its Helicopters in mid 1965 to stop the expansion of Viet Cong Activities and that really started the US intervention in South Vietnam.

Now, as to the coup itself, the US Defence Department opposed it, but the State Department was all for it. JFK appears to have been shocked at the death of Diem, but JFK did welcome that change in Government. The biggest problem was the people of South Vietnam had no faith in the leaders that succeeded Diem:

Following the coup, chaos ensued. Hanoi took advantage of the situation and increased its support for the guerrillas. South Vietnam entered a period of extreme political instability, as one military government toppled another in quick succession. Increasingly, each new regime was viewed by the communists as a puppet of the Americans; whatever the failings of Diệm, his credentials as a nationalist (as Robert McNamara later reflected) had been impeccable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#North_Vietnamese_involvement

Diem's death meant the US was going to intervene in Vietnam, JFK knew that for to say otherwise is to call him a fool and JFK was no fool.

[Art_from_Ark]

118. The French didn't leave Vietnam until they lost the Battle of Dien Bien Phu

That was in 1954, during the Eisenhower administration,

http://www.history.com/topics/battle-of-dien-bien-phu

[merrily]

142. Thank you! Do you know why Truman started funding then? To keep the French fighting?

[happyslug]

176. Who lost China?

That was the GOP's attack on Truman after 1949 and the fall of China to Mao Tse Tung. Thus Truman could not afford to leave another country to "fall" to the Communists. Thus Truman supported anti communists in Greece, Turkey, and Iran. Truman also sent troops into Korea in 1950.

[merrily]

177. Thanks. Sending troops to Korea would be the Korean Police Action referred to in my Reply 34.

However, my Reply 34 was in error about when the French left Vietnam.

I appreciate what you are saying about funding anti-Communists within various nations. The French, however, were not anti-communist Vietnamese. They were sovereign nation fighting in Vietnam. My question was why Truman suddenly starting funding them. I guess they asked us, saying they could no longer go it alone?

[happyslug]

178. From 1946 onward the US paid for the French fight in Vietnam.

Last edited Sat Oct 17, 2015, 06:26 PM - Edit history (1)

China was in Civil War with the Communists on the march. When Japan surrendered the US first troops went to Inchon in Korea over sendibg them to Japan. Thus was to stop the Russian offensive that had taken Manchuria from Japan and was heading into Korea.

France did not have the resources to send troops to retake Vietnam from Japan in 1945 so the US paid the French to do so. Ho Chi Minh had taken control of most of the Southeast Asia but the US did not want the Communists to take control so the US had the Japanese to surrender to the French. Ho tolerated this for he had no real other choice, but within a year had started the first guerilla war which the French fought with US funds and surplus US war equipment.

The only non US heavy equipment used in the first war was one Panther tank that broke down when it arrived. The French used Panther Tanks in Europe till replaced by M47 tanks in the mid 1950s. The tank was sent after China fell to Mao in 1949 in case the Red Chinese would sent in Tanks. The Chinese never did till after 1954.

Thus the US paid for the French from 1946 till 1954. Something like 90% of the costs to fight was paid by the US during that time period. This was all of the result of the anti communist movement of the 1940s and 1950s. Who lost China? who gave away Eastern Europe? Was part of that movement. Truman had to address those attacks and he did so by paying the French to fight in Southeast Asia.

[merrily]

179. Thanks! I didn't mean to put you to all that trouble, but I do appreciate it.

[merrily]

180. PS. Ted Kennedy was in that Korean mess, something we rarely heard about, if at all.

[happyslug]

182. But JFK was already in Congress when the Korean war began and voted for it.

JFK was in the House along with Nixon between 1947 and 1953:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy#U.S._House_of_Representatives_.281947.E2.80.931953.29

Robert Kennedy has served in WWII from 1944 to 1946 (late draftee so held a year), Edward (Ted) Kennedy enlisted in 1951 for Korea, but did his service in Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kennedy#College.2C_military_service.2C_and_law_school

It was noted the two members of the House that voted the most alike from 1947 to 1951 (When Nixon became A Senator, JFK became a Senator in 1953) were Nixon and JFK.

More on Richard Nixon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon#Congressional_career

Sorry, climbing the Swiss Alps while on leave in Europe does NOT give Ted Kennedy Korea War Experince, but I should also mention most US Army Forces during Korea remained in Europe,

[merrily]

183. Yes, JFK voted for it and his brother enlisted.

I wasn't trying to make a case for either of them. It's just that, while most people know of the older Kennedy brothers in World War II, few seem to know that Ted enlisted for the Korean Police Action.

(I love the odd names the Korean Police Action and the Vietnam Era were given--anything to avoid the word "war."

[grasswire]

44. a masterstroke of cynicism

I have said this for years, but not as well as that phrase, hifiguy. You have things EXACTLY right.

[hifiguy]

49. I am not one bit more cynical

than the facts, and what can be logically inferred from them, require.

[haikugal]

93. I've never seen it so well put.

You've described what happened and how it felt. Why would we ever vote for one of these people again?!

Thanks for your post.

[AZ Progressive]

122. The Beltway assimilated Obama

[rhett o rick]

129. I think he got "here's how things work" lessons from the NSA/CIA about spying, the military and

economics. I believe the NSA/CIA wield tremendous powers and I don't think they want Sen Sanders running for President.

[cantbeserious]

11. Thank You For Sharing These Truths

eom

[Catherina]

16. Scahill will be on Chris Hayes MSNBC tonight discussing this

jeremy scahill @jeremyscahill

Going to be on @allinwithchris on MSNBC tonight discussing the trove of SECRET docs on drone war we published today: theintercept.com/drone-papers

https://twitter.com/jeremyscahill/status/654798684203253760

You're welcome. Thanks for being in solidarity.

[restorefreedom]

41. between this and his relatively fair treatment of bernie,

i expect hayes to be walking the corporate plank anytime now.

he will suddenly fill their need to host reruns of dateline on weekend overnight.

[Catherina]

50. I hope you're wrong but you're probably not

I don't watch TV much but I want to see this. Do you know what time he comes on so I can google for a stream?

Edit: Nevermind, I found it. Weekdays at 8pm and it's already 42 minutes into the program

[restorefreedom]

68. yeah just caught a little of the piece on drones

it reruns again, i think 11p est

[Catherina]

78. Thanks. I'll try to catch it n/t

[restorefreedom]

80. you're welcome! nt

[Dont call me Shirley]

13. Genociding the middle east.

[Catherina]

19. And for what?

The next big thing in military drones could be a boon for US manufacturers

Jonathan Camhi

Oct. 15, 2015, 6:35 PM 245 1



The next major innovation that will impact the market for military drones will be drones capable of air-to-air combat, according to a new Motley Fool article. So far, military drones have been limited to surveillance roles and attacking ground targets, but drones that could combat other aircraft would be in high demand, as they would allow militaries to conduct aerial combat without putting pilots’ lives at risk.

American drone manufacturers are well positioned to take advantage of this next development in military drone technology, the article said. Northrop Gunman is already selling drones that can take off and land from aircraft carriers, and be refueled in mid-flight. Northrop is already setting itself apart from the market by focusing on very advanced, high-altitude drones that can cover longer distances. Drones that can combat other aircraft will likely need all of those characteristics.

Although Israeli drone manufacturers like Elbit Systems currently lead the market for military drones, American manufacturers are quickly catching up, and could pull ahead if they can be the first to make air-to-air combat drones. Northrop is developing a long-distance drone, called the MQ-4 Triton, that Australia and other countries are already lining up to buy. General Atomics, another US-based drone maker, is also getting more business from European countries interested in its popular, medium-altitude Predator and Reaper drones.

...

http://www.businessinsider.com/next-big-thing-military-drones-boon-us-2015-10?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=referral

[hifiguy]

33. For the anus mundi that is the KSA

in large part.

[MADem]

54. Don't forget .... LOCKHEED MARTIN.....

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/various.html

VTOL Advanced Reconnaissance Insertion Organic Unmanned System (VARIOUS) is an advanced vertical take-off and landing Unmanned Aerial System (UAS) concept with multi-role capabilities. With a maximum payload of more than 1,900 pounds, no exposed rotors and a service ceiling in excess of 25,000 feet, VARIOUS provides the safety and flexibility to perform multiple missions. Able to carry a variety of payloads in one common stealthy Vertical Take-Off and Landing (VTOL) platform, it is designed to be responsive, survivable, lethal and persistent. VARIOUS is a survivable VTOL UAS concept for all armed services.

[hifiguy]

57. War is good

for business

?w=917





And don't forget this, either:

[MADem]

62. And there is not a candidate running who hasn't accommodated those guys in some fashion.

No one--save perhaps the nervous, intense and unknown Larry Lessig--has clean hands.

[merrily]

27. Thanks so much for this, Catherina. I've bookmarked, but read the thread. Sound horrific.

[Catherina]

36. It's horrific. Couple this with pictures of our drone kills

and it's beyond horror. I'd post a few but too many people here don't like looking at the results of what they're cheering. Beautiful minds and all can't be bothered by pictures of dead kids, dead women, dead people who did nothing except except try to live.

[tularetom]

30. I think a lot of us were inclined to cut Obama some slack because he wasn't Bush

But regardless, the whole drone program, to me, borders on war crimes.

I've always had a lot of respect for the President, but if this is true, I won't defend him.

I'm already pissed over the MSF incident and our lame ass "apologies".

[Catherina]

39. It's war crimes. The MSF incident too (graphic pic / beautiful minds warning)

Here are some pic of what the MSF hospital in Kunduz looked like by the time we were done with it







I got these pics from a recent Foreign Policy article. There are more at the link

Inside the MSF Hospital in Kunduz

An exclusive first look at the horrific aftermath of the U.S. attack in northern Afghanistan.

Photographs and story by Andrew Quilty

Heartbreaking.

[hifiguy]

45. Gotta keep 'murka Number One, you know.

That is absolutely horrifying.

[reformist2]

32. I hate to say this, but Obama surrendered his foreign policy to the neocons years ago.

I have no idea why he turned on us the way he did, but there is no denying anymore that he's no longer the peacemaker we thought we were electing.

[2naSalit]

40. Why?

Well, if you think about what you would do to prevent your family from being murdered while there's red dots on your temples and heart... what would you do?

[grasswire]

46. I wouldn't run for president

Only a rube would fail to understand the dangers of being installed in the office.

[Catherina]

42. The first people he called in over the Arab spring in Egypt were neocons

I posted about it at the time

Neocons meeting with Obama at the White House today over Egypt

[hifiguy]

51. Drop the mic.

Proof positive.

[Luminous Animal]

88. Yep. One hit after another. I so hope this new leaker never get found.

[Catherina]

96. Me too. And I hope he (or she) is already safely out of the country

in a place that will provide protection and won't play ball with our extradition requests.

[LeftyMom]

38. There's a lot of excuse making on this thread.

Blaming the evil counselors to the omnibenevolent head of state is a trope at least as old as the Roman Empire, and it was bullshit then too.

[Catherina]

47. The sooner we accept that WE are responsible the sooner things might change.

I don't see it in this thread (could be the wonders of my ignore list) but I see it everyday, all around. People bury their heads, they don't want to know or worse, they cynically whitewash it. It's bullshit.

[hifiguy]

64. Explanations do not excuse.

They explain.

[randome]

70. Then you try an explanation: how would you stop these terrorists>

(My question mark key is inoperable.)
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Hydra]

89. Which ones?

The ones on the Mideast, the ones in Washington DC, or the ones the people in Washington DC sent to the Mideast?

[Fairgo]

95. Glad you asked...

Stop making them.

[randome]

101. So you'd do nothing, then. Just let it all go and hope for the best.

I'm not in favor of killing but I don't think I'd leave military matters up to you.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Fairgo]

106. Thanks for that

I wouldn't want to be in charge of the killing industry plans. They create the terrorists that legitimate their killing industry. Let me know when the snake is through eating its tail and maybe we can try a different approach. Meanwhile, I wish you well in whoever you assign to managing the killing done on your behalf.

[ronnie624]

111. You're at FAR greater risk of breaking your neck in the shower

than you are of dying in a terrorist attack. Your anxiety is clearly revealed to be irrational when one considers the statistical likelihood of the average American being a victim of terrorism. There are much more effective ways of reducing the risk, however, than endless war. The best way, in my opinion, would be through a cooperative global police effort, and a re-examination of our policies of resource dominance in the Middle East.

[randome]

120. I have no anxiety regarding terrorists. None.

I'm talking about safeguarding Europe, which is where most terrorist activity takes place. And a global police force would not likely put boots on the ground. They would most likely choose the safest and least destructive method available. Which would be the use of drones.

It's a messy situation. It always is. It's probably not as complex as we're told nor as simple as wiping the slate clean and starting over.

This article, however, is just a hit piece on the current administration.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[ronnie624]

131. "safeguarding Europe"

That doesn't even make any sense. The ruling order of Western civilization, and that includes Europe, is not threatened by terrorism. That is hyperbolic nonsense that is used to spread fear and rationalize perpetual war.

It's a messy situation. It always is. It's probably not as complex as we're told nor as simple as wiping the slate clean and starting over.

That comment is utterly devoid of meaning, clearly illustrating the gobbledygook that is employed to justify the "global war on terror".

[randome]

158. Europe does not deal with terrorism> Hello, the Charlie Hebdo attack.

Plus about 100 more here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_European_Union
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[ronnie624]

161. More nonsense rationalizations.

The US response to terrorism is completely out of proportion to to the threat posed.

[Luminous Animal]

97. Excellent post (n/t)

[Octafish]

66. Wars without End for Profits without Cease.

So that's why they tossed the Constitution!

[hifiguy]

67. I was hoping you would show up here, sir.

Been holding the fort by myself for a while.

[Octafish]

73. Sir, the fort then is in good hands.

That Intercept article is full of info you've been writing about on DU for years, hifiguy. You were against drones back when Blackwater was running the show. And your vigilance is a big reason why these gangsters have yet to deploy their superautokill technology in the Homeland.

As for those working with the whistleblower yet are too afraid to step forward and protect democracy, for shame. Where is your patriotism, let alone integrity?

[Catherina]

79. +1! And hi Octafish

It's always great to see you and read your posts.

[Octafish]

108. Hiya, Catherina! Great to read you!

Thank you for another great OP and thread! Your reply 43 is the crux of the war: power and profit. It's an empire of evil when war is our only national purpose.

[GoneFishin]

74. I checked out the link in your tag line. I only got 1/2 way through it, but it is great.

[Octafish]

124. Vincent Salandria was on the case Nov. 22, 1963.

Decent profile that examines his career in relation to Arlen Magic Bullet Specter:

Vince Salandria: The JFK Conspiracy Theorist

...Meanwhile, through the ’60s, Vince Salandria kept at it. His home, then on Delancey Street, was something of a meeting place among conspiracy theorists: Mark Lane, Fonzi, anti-war activist Dave Dellinger. Benjamin Spock showed up one night. Norman Mailer sent Vince a note on behalf of another researcher, requesting that Vince hear him out. Marie Fonzi, Gaeton’s widow, can still remember Vince at the center of it all: “He was like Sophocles,” she says, in the way he could make a case that not getting to the bottom of the assassination spelled doom for all of us....

http://www.phillymag.com/articles/vince-salandria-jfk-conspiracy-theorist/

Interesting times, ours.

[1norcal]

154. Thanks to all...

Thanks to all for the original posting and to others like Octafish for their ongoing struggle for truth in media. This is an invaluable new leaker very much in league with Daniel Ellsberg,Chelsea Manning and Eric Snowden. We can be most grateful for their sacrifice because it opens a window on our illegal government going back to JFK.

[Duppers]

162. Agree! nt

[BeanMusical]

71. Kick and R

[randome]

72. "The Drone Papers". How droll. How hyperbolic.

Not a single one of you has any idea how to stop terrorists. All you care about is making the worst assumptions possible about the Obama Administration. Just as the Intercept hoped.

And that's because doom and gloom is what you thrive on. It is not an admirable trait.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[neverforget]

81. Article: "The US government kills a lot of people who aren't military target"

You:

"How droll. How hyperbolic. Not a single one of you has any idea how to stop terrorists. All you care about is making the worst assumptions possible about the Obama Administration. Just as the Intercept hoped.

And that's because doom and gloom is what you thrive on. It is not an admirable trait."

Because it's all about Obama

[randome]

82. What is the alternative>

Boots on the ground and, in the process, kill a lot of people who aren't military targets>

What is your alternative> Anyone> Or is just being angry and depressed your solitary goal>
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[restorefreedom]

107. here are alternatives

staying the hell out of countries where we don't belong

stop manufacturing "reasons" to go into countries so the mic and 1% can pillage the country and create new terrorist organizations that hate us.

will solve the drone problem as well as the "oopsie" at the hospital which will probably now be investigated as a war crime

[randome]

113. "Don't give a shit about Europe". Not much of a foreign policy, I think.

Forget about the future. What would you do now to stop these terrorists from killing people> Apparently nothing. We can tell them we'll hold our collective breath until we turn blue. Or we could just ignore the bombings and hope everything works out okay "over there". Disregarding the fact that we are so intertwined with Europe that "over there" means us and ours.

But who cares, right> Most of them are just Europeans.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[restorefreedom]

115. don't put words in my mouth, thanks

and maybe instead of stomping around invading countries like we own the damn world and toppling governments to make room for terrorist groups to move in, we could act like a civilized country and work with the world community. sometimes, in extreme cases (like 911), use of force is necessary. but our foreign policy has contributed more to destabilization and violence than its done to prevent it. until we change our policy and stop pandering to the mic, our assistance to other countries is only minimally possible and effective.

[randome]

119. You're talking about taking the long-term view. I have no problem with that.

But Obama has only 8 years to make a difference. I'm not sure if that's enough time to apply long-term solutions to short-term dangers.

Since even Bernie Sanders has said he would use drones where needed, I think it's safe to assume that their use has some value.

Calling their use "Obama's Drone War" makes this article a hit piece for the current administration. And the fact that specific terrorists are actually targeted makes the whole "blows the lid off" hyperbole to the Nth degree.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[restorefreedom]

121. bernie's support of the drone program

is truly the only position of his that makes me uncomfortable (since his "progun" posture had been repeatedly debunked).

obama has been pres long enough now that he has significant ownership of the programs in his administration, although i might have chosen the term "us govt drone program" instead, but its not my piece of media. still, he can make a decision today to alter the degree with which we utlilize drones, or could make the criteria stiffer, or could end it altogether. these drones are operating in countries with which we are not at war and are killing a large number of noncombatants, which goes to your last point. they can "target" the terrorists all they want, but if they're actually targeting the cell phones without knowing who is attached, how is that a responsible protocol? In every military action they were going to be people who die who are not combatants. The country directing that action has to decide what is an acceptable level of people innocent who die. In my view, it's zero if it's a country that we are not at war with. but if this report is accurate, every person in this country should be sickened by the high number of innocents that are being killed because of in accurate use of information, or because they just don't care. Yesterday the AP reported that the US knew the hospital identity in Afghanistan and bombed it anyway. That just can't happen. None of this should happen.

[hifiguy]

175. The Europeans are fully capable of taking care of themselves,

should the need arise, unless Putin launches a full-scale invasion of western Europe. Which is, to say the least, about as likely as the existence of unicorns and flying pigs.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

90. I won't be lectured by murder apologists. Clear? Make sure it is.

[randome]

99. So you're saying that killing is bad, right> Brilliant.

Now how would you stop terrorists> Tell them to behave and play better with others>
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[DisgustipatedinCA]

105. Was my disdain for you not clear enough?

[Rex]

135. Actually whenever I see that name, I know the article is hitting the right nerve.

That one never fails to be totally predictable.

[stupidicus]

165. yep, leaves the facts in the case wholly unaddressed, intact/unrebutted

and seeks the moral highground with a dismissive and insulting remark about how the really important but unbroached issue is a less than admirable trait of dooming and glooming over the loss of innocent brown muslim lives.

It seems to me like the only thing that stands as evidence for, is how cheap those kinda lives are to him/her

[Rex]

167. Noticed that too, from the first days of conversation.

And not just that one poster, some here seem to value American lives far more than non-American lives...which is their right, but not very progressive imo.

We've been killing 'others' with drones for over a decade...when is it enough?

[stupidicus]

170. yep

As a humanist, I'm a citizen of this planet first and foremost.

And even if that weren't the case -- valuing lives regardless of what border they are found inside of -- as far as I can tell, our drone usage has been stupid and unproductive in terms of problem solving. It's like playing whack-a-mole with hydra-heads. Even if you whack one, how many replace it?

[stupidicus]

164. indeed, thriving on being a murder apologists

is not an admirable trait.

it's obviously the victims fault in this case, and it will not in any way serve as an impediment to getting past St. Peter at those pearly gates....

[wildbilln864]

91. terrorists!?

what terrorists? you fell hook, line & sinker for that BS!

[randome]

100. Sure. It's all just nth dimensional chess between the MIC and humanity, I guess.

It must be that because there are no bad people anywhere.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[wildbilln864]

102. if you're skeerd jump in my pocket. I ain't. n/t

[randome]

114. Not afraid at all. 9-11 changed my life not one bit.

But as far as foreign policy goes, telling Europe we don't care is not the way countries roll. Especially since we are so intertwined with the rest of the world.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Rex]

133. Nice try at pretend outrage, it does not suit you well since you are horrible at it.

It is funny watching you pretend to have some kind of cred on DU. Seriously, how does one become so delusional? You know what is not an admirable trait? Dishonesty and insincerity, something you seem to have in abundance.

[randome]

157. I'm not pretending to anything. Certainly not to having the wisdom to be right.

War is an ugly, complex activity. It should always be disdained. Now does anyone have an idea how to stop terrorists who threaten Europe and our other allies>

Repeating that 'war is bad' does not seem like a very good debating point, especially since we are agreed on that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Holly_Hobby]

86. Was there any president that WASN'T a killer?

Part of the job description. And I'm not excusing it. And I'm sick to death of it.

[happyslug]

109. That is a good one, does that include when the President was NOT the President?

President William Harry Harrison could NOT have killed anyone as President, he died 32 days after taking the oath of office and thus did not have the time (But he had been a General Fighting Native Americans for decades before hand):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Henry_Harrison

Beside Harrison I can NOT think of anyone Washington, while President, sent troops to put down the Whiskey Rebellion in addition to sending troops to defeat native Americans in what is now Ohio.

John Adams did send out ships to attack French Ships in the Undeclared war with France. Jefferson did order the navy against the Tripoli pirates. Madison fought the War of 1812. Monroe sent in General Jackson into Florida to fight Native Americas. John Quincy Adams seems at first glance NOT to have killed anyone, but he did support moving Native Americans out of the South and to Oklahoma (As did Jackson and Van Buren) and was President when the Seminole were starving in Florida and the plan was to move them to Oklahoma as oppose to feeding them). The Winnebago War was also fought under John Quincy Adams

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/na-indianwartimeline2.html

That brings us to Harrison, and Tyler (Who ended the Second Seminole War, but after starving the Seminoles into signing a treaty). Polk was President when we fought Mexico. Taylor was President during the crisis that lead to the Compromise of 1850, he threatened to order the Army into the South unless they accepted the compromise (Through the compromise was NOT actually adopted till he had died).

Fillmore succeeded Taylor and did his best to enforce the Fugitive Slave act, as did Piece and Buchanan. Lincoln had the Civil War, and Johnstown had the end of that war and the start of reconstruction. Grant, Haynes, Garfield and Arthur were all President during the last Sioux, Apaches and other wars against Native Americas (Ending during The Presidency of Harrison). Cleveland had the Indian wars, but his suppression of the Railroad strike of 1894 was Violent. McKinley had the Spanish-American War. Theodore Roosevelt had the repression of the Revolt in the Philippines. Taft sent troops to Nicaragua, Wilson to Haiti, the Dominican Republic and WWI. Haiti would be under US occupation under Wilson, Harding, Coolidge, Hoover and FDR (The Dominican Republic would be occupied Wilson, Harding, and Coolidge). FDR would only pull US troops out for his advisors said from a military point of view the situation was hopeless). FDR had WWII, Truman had both WWII, the post war conflicts with the Soviet Union (including aid to the French to fight in Vietnam) and Korea. Eisenhower had troops in Korea, sent troops to Lebanon and supported the French in Vietnam till 1954 (When the French decided to pull out) and then South Vietnam after 1954. JFK had Cuba and Vietnam. LBJ, Nixon and Ford had Vietnam. Carter had the rescue attempt to get the Iranian Hostages. Reagan and Bush had NIcaragua again. Bush had Desert Storm. Clinton had Serbia and Kosovo. George W Bush had Iraq and Afghanistan, as does Obama.

Thus with the possible exception of John Quincy Adams (who did support removal of the Native Americans to Oklahoma but not at the pace it was later carried out) and William Henry Harrison (who was in office only 32 days), you have a good argument that all Presidents have killed. Fillmore, Piece and Buchanan did they best to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act thus while no major wars were fought under them, you can NOT call them peaceful (Piece and Buchanan also did what they could to support the South in "Bleeding Kansas" from 1856 to 1861).

[Holly_Hobby]

141. Thank you for taking the time to respond...

A much-needed history lesson and a lot to think about.

[Rex]

137. Jimmy Carter.

[StrongBad]

92. Damn. That's pretty crazy.

[nationalize the fed]

94. ^ Out of sight

out of mind.

http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/

"You've gone from being the most intelligent, literate, morally back-boned citizenry in the history of the world to the laziest, dumbest, most capitulating human trash that has ever existed"- Vinny Eastwood, New Zealand

[Duppers]

163. Great link! Excellent quote!!

Thank you.

[restorefreedom]

98. for those of you who don't care about sleeping tonight..

courtesy of the young turks:


https://m.

[Catherina]

103. Thanks. I'll watch tonight. If it disturbs my sleep, so be it

These things should be required viewing.

[Luminous Animal]

104. "you suddenly realize it was his mother's phone you've been following all the time"

[reddread]

117. mass assassins

[Catherina]

132. Great post

Pasting your post to have it in my journal as reference:

To understand what is going on now, it is important for concerned US citizens to learn about“The Grand Chessboard Strategy” of Zbigniew Brzezinski who mentored Obama in the run up to the 2008 election. The “Pivot East” portion of the Grand Chessboard entails the US and western powers destabilizing Russia through a series of sanctions, economic sabotage and proxy wars. They want to take control of the Eurasian continent and it’s vast resources through “death by a thousand cuts” by establishing a large number of small “fires” (wars) around Russia. That is why they pursue a strategy of chaos that seems out of control. It is intentional.

The $18.5 trillion US dollar pyramid fiat currency is in danger of collapsing against a resurgent Russia that is rich in untapped resources. Putin has done a good job of rebuilding his country. The powers that run the world couldn’t allow this. Brezinskis plan was revealed by a leading German think tank and can be read simply by Googling the phrase “ IMI Analysis Understanding the Grand Chessboard”.

For those wondering why there is so much obvious propaganda being put out by the US media, it is
also worth reading up on Cass Sunstein who Brzezinski, the Neocons and Neoliberals, including Obama, put in place to roll out the “Full Spectrum Dominance” program that was initiated right before the Ukrainian coup in November 2013. Cass Sunstein is the husband of US United Nations representative Samantha Powers and both of them worked on Obamas 2008 election campaign and were also ‘student’s of Brzezinski. Full Spectrum Dominance can also be easily Googled and is a massively expanded continuation of Donald Rumsfelds “Total Information Awareness” program. However, this time around the American people are also victims of US government financed propaganda. To read more about Full Spectrum Dominance simply Google the Guardian UK article titled “ US Spy Operation That Manipulates Social Media”. It also explains that US tax dollar paid Centcom subcontracted trolls are paid to manipulate comment sections and social media outlets in order to ‘protect’ US government interests (propaganda). The UK military also has a Facebook psy ops group. That article can be found by Googling the Guardian UK article titled “ British Army Creates Team of Facebook Warriors. The third group the US also finances to manipulate comment sections is the most vitriolic one and the one you have most likely experienced at popular comment sections. It is the “Ukrainian Information Army” and their signup page can be found by simply Googling their name. They are financed through the US AID program and the National Endowment for the Arts (NED). You are paying your own hard earned tax dollars to be insulted and fed propaganda in comments sections by your own government. It is a fact. It is happening. You are not dreaming it. You are a victim too.

The IMI Analysis article above explains in detail why they wanted to use Ukraine as a starting point for their strategy. Wikileaks exposed Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko as a US CIA asset back in 2006 well before the coup. That cable can also easily be found online. Victoria Nuland and Donald and Robert Kagan are also neocons that led the Ukrainian disaster. Note that they also use jihadist proxy forces in the Middle East and have caused a massive refugee crisis in Europe. Also note that ISIS have never had their oil refineries bombed by the US, nor have their oil buyers in Turkey ever been sanctioned. Sanctions seem ok against Russia, but not against ISIS. Note that that the US spy satellites over Ukraine saw what really happened to MH-17. Also note that US warships were conducting operation “Breeze” in the Black Sea on July 17, 2014. They know exactly what really happened to MH-17 and have known all along. The reason they never mention even the possibility that the Ukrainian Right Sector may have did it, is because they know they did. To see the truth of the Ukrainian war and all the other Right Sector false flag attacks against civilians simply Google “ Live Leak In Between Days”. That highly graphic video library features 170 videos that show that all the victims are ethnic Russian civilians and the killers of those innocent people are the Ukrainian Right Sector fascist battalions. Many of the videos show the Ukrainians dressed in N@tzi uniforms. The US media has intentionally covered up the plight of the victims while constantly keeping the focus on Russian president Putin as their new bogeyman. Note that before 2013 and the rollout of their plans, the US and EU countries conducted normal business with Russia for over a decade. Currently even Theresa Heinz Kerrys ketchup is still being sold in Russia. Russia never banned US products. The US has damaged it’s own companies through sanctions, including Exxon, Shell, Caterpillar, John Deere, Ford and many others including NASA.

In the Middle Eastern wars the US is now supporting a number of nefarious factions, some of which conducted the 9/11 attacks. In Libya, US bombings led to jihadist warlords coming to power and caused a massive refugee crisis and thousands of drownings in the Med. That bombing campaign also led to 38 British tourists being killed in neighboring Tunisia. In Yemen, the US is supplying the Sunni Saudi monarchy that are complicit in the 9/11 attacks (28 redacted pages from the 9/11 report) with J-Dam bombs that are killing tens of thousands of civilians. In Syria, the US has backed the Al Nusra Front who are made up of members of Al Qaeda, Daesh and ISIS and have even been shown on You Tube eating a human heart. These groups are interchangeable. There are no moderates. That is a media propaganda catchword. The one group that was effectively defeating ISIS was the Kurds. However, the US decided to let Turkey bomb the Kurds and now they are no longer defeating ISIS. In over a year of bombing sorties, the US has not managed to stop ISIS in any way, shape or form. Instead ISIS has grown and actually gained 10 times the territory in Iraq and Syria. This leads to the assumption that they were not actually bombing them, but instead using them as a proxy army in order to have a ‘legitimate reason’ to go into Syria and overthrow the secular government. Note that Russia has a naval base in Tartus, Syria similar to the naval base they have in Sevastopol, Ukraine.

In a strange twist, the US has been constantly pushing a propaganda campaign on human rights in Russia which is a social democratic country, while at the same time the US has backed Saudi Arabia and covered up their hangings of homosexual people and has recently had them appointed as head of the UN Human Rights Council.

We are at the point now where the world is turned upside down. This is quite similar to what happens in George Orwells masterpiece 1984. In the book, the people of Oceania do not realize that the enemy has been switched by the government from Eurasia to Eastasia. The US is now aligned with fascists in Ukraine and jihadists in the Middle East. It is time for concerned US citizens to wake up and do their part to expose the lies of our own government. We are on the edge of WW3 and the lives of you and your children are at stake. Please cut, save and post this message widely. Place it in comments sections so people can be informed of what is really going on so we, on both sides of the political aisle, can take back our country. As US Generals Dwight Eisenhower and Smedley Butler once said….the enemy is not foreign……it is domestic.



The Mystery Behind the New ISIS Toyota Hiluxes Has Been Solved! Guess Who?

The US Treasury has recently opened an inquiry about the so-called “Islamic State’s” (ISIS/ISIL) use of large numbers of brand-new Toyota trucks. The issue has arisen in the wake of Russia’s air operations over Syria and growing global suspicion that the US itself has played a key role in arming, funding, and intentionally perpetuating the terrorist army across Syria and Iraq.

Not surprisingly, it appears the US Treasury is asking the wrong party. Instead of Toyota, the US Treasury’s inquiry should have started next door at the US State Department.

Just last year it was reported that the US State Department had been sending in fleets of specifically Toyota-brand trucks into Syria to whom they claimed was the “Free Syrian Army.”

US foundation-funded Public Radio International (PRI) reported in a 2014 article titled, “This one Toyota pickup truck is at the top of the shopping list for the Free Syrian Army — and the Taliban,” that:

Recently, when the US State Department resumed sending non-lethal aid to Syrian rebels, the delivery list included 43 Toyota trucks.

Hiluxes were on the Free Syrian Army’s wish list. Oubai Shahbander, a Washington-based advisor to the Syrian National Coalition, is a fan of the truck.

“Specific equipment like the Toyota Hiluxes are what we refer to as force enablers for the moderate opposition forces on the ground,” he adds. Shahbander says the US-supplied pickups will be delivering troops and supplies into battle. Some of the fleet will even become battlefield weapons..

The British government has also admittedly supplied a number of vehicles to terrorists fighting inside of Syria. The British Independent’s 2013 article titled, “Revealed: What the West has given Syria’s rebels,” reported that:

So far the UK has sent around £8m of “non-lethal” aid, according to official papers seen by The Independent, comprising five 4×4 vehicles with ballistic protection; 20 sets of body armour; four trucks (three 25 tonne, one 20 tonne); six 4×4 SUVs; five non-armoured pick-ups; one recovery vehicle; four fork-lifts; three advanced “resilience kits” for region hubs, designed to rescue people in emergencies; 130 solar powered batteries; around 400 radios; water purification and rubbish collection kits; laptops; VSATs (small satellite systems for data communications) and printers.

It’s fair to say that whatever pipeline the US State Department and the British government used to supply terrorists in Syria with these trucks was likely used to send additional vehicles before and after these reports were made public.

[Duppers]

171. Wow! Bookmarking.

Don't have time to read all of this and research right now--will later.

This is Must Read Info.

Thanks!

[Duppers]

172. Why did the original poster delete it? It's amazing.

[kath]

127. Isn't it freakin' great to have a Nobel Peace Prize winner in the White House?

Yay!

[Blue_Tires]

134. There is a debate to be had about drones

but this isn't it, and Greenwald of all people isn't he one to lead it

[MH1]

139. Greenwald?

I agree with you but didn't see where he was involved directly in this story. (Admittedly I only skimmed the article and looked at bylines. I plan to read in depth later.)

[Blue_Tires]

150. Greenwald runs the show at the Intercept

even though some other no-name is technically the ME...

[MH1]

156. Ok, thanks

I didn't know that. Now I do.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

140. Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. Friedrich Nietzsche

We have become monsters.

[WillyT]

144. K & R !!!

[Autumn]

181. .