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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTeenager Alerts Police That They Left Their Brights on -- 5 Minutes Later They Shoot Him Dead
Around 8:00 pm on February 28, 2015, the 17-year-old Grand Ledge High School was shot seven times by Eaton County Deputy Sheriff Sgt. Jonathan Frost. While he was driving to his girlfriend’s house after playing basketball at his church, Deven was stopped because he momentarily flashed his bright lights to alert the oncoming officer that his brights appeared to be on. Five minutes later he was dead.
During this traffic stop, it appears that Deven was puzzled and confused about why he was pulled over and why he was being confronted and ultimately arrested by the officer. The officer did nothing to calm or de-escalate the situation. Instead, Frost rapidly became argumentative and agitated when Deven asserted that the officer had been driving with his high beams on and resisted producing his ID. The entire encounter lasted just over 5 minutes and the backup Frost had called for, before he ever touched Deven or his vehicle, arrived barely a minute after the fatal shots were fired.
The lawsuit alleges that Frost’s entire course of action was illegal and in violation of Deven’s constitutional rights. The momentary warning flash of high beams does not violate Michigan law. Hence, Frost had no right to pull Deven over, demand his paperwork, arrest him or require him to exit the vehicle. The force used was excessive and unnecessary. The suit also alleges that the County failed to properly train, supervise or disciple Frost and/or condoned unconstitutional practices, such as making illegal traffic stops.
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/family-suing-after-video-showed-their-child-killed-cop-after-flashing-his-brights
Graphic Video warning:
I feel sorry for this family but I wonder what their feelings towards #BlackLivesMatter before this incident. Point being, it can happen to anyone if you don't do exactly as some police officers order you to do...even if you haven't broken the law.
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Stuart G
(38,420 posts)FormerRepublicanNow
(43 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)FormerRepublicanNow
(43 posts)The cop asked a number of times for the divers license, car registration, and proof of insurance none of which is out of line. The kid was out of line by not doing what the cop asked.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Do you believe a citizen must do whatever a cop tells him to?
That is not U.S. law.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Being 17, he would have been tested on the contents of that booklet within the last couple of years.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/16/us/michigan-sheriffs-sergeant-teen-shooting-lawsuit/index.html
"Smart-assery" is not illegal, but refusing to supply the requested documents when driving on public roads is.
lpbk2713
(42,754 posts)The tragic part of this is the outcome will be based in large part on what the
Sheriif's Office provides as their side of the story. Twenty years ago that would
have worked. But today, with the internet and modern devices, we now know
they all lie like hell to save their pathetic asses.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)I can't imagine hitting a cop under any circumstances. I guess the kid had his reasons.
brush
(53,771 posts)So we are to take the cop's word on this? We know by now that cops lie to save their ass from their own bad decisions.
There was no reason even for a stop. Guess that predator cop was just looking for action.
Once the kid told him his brights were on he should have just sent the kid on his way. That cop's ego couldn't even allow that his brights may have been on. What is up with that? Like he's so perfect he couldn't possibly have accidentally had his brights on. What's the big fucking deal about getting flashed because your brights are on? I welcome that when it happens to me.
Flashing to warn of bright lights is now a crime with this cop? Please! What a pathetic police decision.
He had the kid on his stomach on the roadside, tazes him then kills him off camera so we have to take the cops word for what happened. Those shots came really quickly after the tazer sounds.
We need to start psyche testing cops and hiring cops with higher IQs that know the difference between de-escalating and escalating a situation.
All this over a courtesy flashing to warn of headlight brights being on.
Hope the parents sue the hell out of them.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)You are right about these cops. They need some mental help before starting to see if they should even have a badge.
Lancero
(3,003 posts)brush
(53,771 posts)kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)This was a horrible, horrible tragedy and I don't know why his family hasn't organized a massive protest.
Shot seven times????WWTF!!! How long are people going to put up with this. The last time the video showed the teen clearly he was on the ground. It's not wrongful death..it' murder by police pure and simple. You can hear the teen say clearly that he flashed his lights to let the oncoming car know that his high beams were on. He says that and the officer ignores that.
lpbk2713
(42,754 posts)should be held just as accountable for the outcome IMO.
They never even had justification to make a traffic stop.
brush
(53,771 posts)I don't know why his family hasn't organized a massive protest
Whites need to start protesting abusive cops as well since police abuse also happens to whites too. They need to take some lessons from POC and start protesting.
https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KIo9c7LiFWzUAALX0snIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBzMmQ2MHUwBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDMTc-?p=White+Woman+Killed+By+Police&vid=d179b69eccd4e5e4f25e0ed7d6b2b850&turl=http%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DWN.XPzBvfP06cWPynRmPmADSg%26pid%3D15.1%26h%3D168%26w%3D300%26c%3D7%26rs%3D1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DBSPhC916GQM&tit=Cops+Shoots+Unarmed+Woman+Motorist+To+Death+For+Rolling+Up+Her+Car+Window&c=16&h=168&w=300&l=171&sigr=11bv9srcc&sigt=129elbjvq&sigi=12lmi1d4p&age=1329078147&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av&fr=yhs-mozilla-003&hsimp=yhs-003&hspart=mozilla&tt=b
Pathwalker
(6,598 posts)yard signs, and the farmers are busy harvesting their fields. This shooting was one of THREE by cops in the mid-Michigan area within a very short time. All were declared justified. The police around here are scary.
brush
(53,771 posts)Too many predator cops out there now.
Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)I hadn't realized it was a cop. He told me that he hadn't had his brights on, and I apologized as obsequiously as possible. He then let me go.
Whenever I get stopped, I'm always as submissive and obedient as I know how to be.
Acting defiantly and refusing to follow reasonable orders is a recipe for trouble, and rarely worth it.
It shouldn't be a death penalty offense though.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)As being unreasonable, let alone unlawful, but YMMV on that. Feel free to "resist" as much as you like in a similar situation. Your judgement call.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)YOU keep on letting Fascism thrive.
FLASHING LIGHTS IS NOT ILLEGAL, THUS NOT CAUSE TO BE PULLED OVER, ETC.
hack89
(39,171 posts)With blood dripping into his eyes, beginning to lose consciousness, Frost fired at Guilford, the prosecutor's report said.
"I feared that if I were to lose consciousness, he would take my gun and shoot me with it," Frost wrote in his account.
Pictures taken at Sparrow Hospital after the shooting, included in the prosecutor's report, show Frost with streaks of blood running down his face. A doctor characterized his injuries as "significant facial trauma," the prosecutor's report showed.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/16/us/michigan-sheriffs-sergeant-teen-shooting-lawsuit/index.html
pintobean
(18,101 posts)"They said that Deven's focus on these videos was recent, sudden, out of the ordinary, and may have influenced Deven in this traffic stop," Lloyd wrote in the report.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)He was most likely killed because he didn't show the proper respect.
Midnight Writer
(21,751 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)brush
(53,771 posts)And we all know by now that murdering, trouble making coward was lying.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)isn't that what emergency room doctors do for a living?
cstanleytech
(26,284 posts)was booked and then they insisted she was murdered while in the cell but neither of the medical examiners found anything to support those claims, in fact the video of her later on showed her alive and well being booked.
But hey if you want to believe the cops are guilty even without any evidence to support that belief in this case or any case feel free but personally I prefer proof.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts).. I lived in a Ferguson as a black teenager... they lost it with me long time ago
cstanleytech
(26,284 posts)investigations that will probably be done to issue their reports.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)You know for a fact that he is a coward?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)I figure he might have a hard time if he were to not help the police.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Last edited Sat Oct 17, 2015, 09:30 AM - Edit history (1)
Because it didn't fit your opinion of cops. Ok.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)respect they demand. What a great job for psychopaths. Sadly the other cops will lie for them.
hack89
(39,171 posts)The cop was in the wrong. There is absolutely no evidence that the doctor lied about his injuries. You are the one calling the doctor a liar and a coward.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)fear retaliation from the police. The police can be very intimidating, esp when they have just killed an unarmed person. The cop should be charged with manslaughter and those that lied for him should be fired at the min or charged with being accomplices after the fact. The only way we will stop police forces from hiring and enabling psycos is to demand strict punishments.
Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)Doesn't that pretty much just mean that there is strong evidence that someone was hit in the face? It doesn't mean that somebody's face was repeatedly struck. By my clock, the time in the video between the sound of the taser, and the sound of the first shot is just a little over 10 seconds. Normally, 10 seconds is a short period of time, but I know that in a fight a lot can happen in 10 seconds. It's very possible that the kid jumped up and beat the cop so badly in 10 seconds that the cop was about to lose consciousness.
If that's actually the case, didn't this cop really suck at his job. in this particular case? If a 17-year old kid can go from being face-down, on the ground, to almost beating a (supposedly) trained police officer into near unconsciousness in about 12 seconds, isn't it fair to infer that the officer was incompetent? I'm not a cop, but I'm assuming that at least part of their training involves some self-defense techniques that would help them avoid being pummeled to the point of unconsciousness by a high school kid.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)not an instant death sentence.
Rex
(65,616 posts)out. In this case, it was a 17 year old that made the mistake of getting noticed by a murdering thug.
Stuart G
(38,420 posts)Another cop kills an unarmed person. So there is a fight...that happens.....So the cop kills someone...that happens too...
Question...if he wasn't a cop, would he be charged with a crime for killing someone in a fight????
That is it...If he were just a normal person.., not a cop,.... would he be charged with a crime for pulling out a gun, in the middle of a fight, and killing the other person??.....
and....all that has to be done, is for the cop to call for extra help,,,,,and it is all over...think about that for a while...
Rex
(65,616 posts)Which works out great, since the dead kid can never tell his side of the story. Cop will get suspended, move to another town and probably kill again.
This is a troubling pattern we see in law enforcement.
questionseverything
(9,651 posts)at the least
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)davidpdx
(22,000 posts)My wife was telling me about it and I wanted to get information on it because I had not heard about it. So you are absolutely right, it is getting world wide coverage.
I find it appalling that after he was tasered he was then shot seven times.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)He had facial injuries, at least according to the Detroit paper, which carried a photo.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/06/17/fatal-shooting-teen-eaton-county/28893153/
Frost, an eight-year veteran, pulled Deven Guilford over Feb. 28 after he said the teen flashed his bright lights because he thought Frost's were on, police said. Guilford repeatedly refused to give Frost his driver's license and other documents, and eventually resisted arrest. Frost initially used his stun gun on Guilford while the teen was lying on his stomach next to his vehicle but would not put his hands behind his back as Frost was attempting to handcuff him. The teen got off the ground, when police said Guilford was able to get on top of Frost in a snow-filled ditch and was hitting him in the face.
Lloyd said Tuesday Frost could feel blood in his mouth and felt he was about to lose consciousness before he removed his gun from the holster. Lloyd said Frost's gun did not fire at first, but he ejected an unfired round, chambered a new round and fired seven shots at close range in four seconds, all of which struck Guilford. He died at the scene. There is no video of the confrontation soon after Guilford was stunned and stood up.
Stuart G
(38,420 posts)yes.in USA...with a cop....death...
outside of USA, in most other countries in the world.....the answer is NO...
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)was all one-sided.
questionseverything
(9,651 posts)george zimmerman feared for his life too...so he said
the idea that this kid overpowered this cop is malarkey,personally i am not going to give the benefit of the doubt to anyone that kills an unarmed teenager
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)I'm not saying the officer was right and I'm certainly not saying the boy should have been killed.
But the article was completely one-sided.
cstanleytech
(26,284 posts)altercation of some sort, if you want to assume the officer is lying though thats your choice of course.
tblue37
(65,336 posts)"Just enough to convince the investigators--or a jury if it gets that far."
The kid failed to "respect his Authoritah!" Cops pretty often consider that to be a capital offense.
cstanleytech
(26,284 posts)where you are in the country is not usually approved of, the rest of it? I will wait until there is a more detailed picture and the reports come in until I make any kind of decision but if you want to jump to conclusions by all means feel free.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)cstanleytech
(26,284 posts)questionseverything
(9,651 posts)"He ran at me swinging his fists... [Guilford was] on top of me, repeatedly punching me in the head," Frost wrote in the narrative account of the incident.
With blood dripping into his eyes, beginning to lose consciousness, Frost fired at Guilford, the prosecutor's report said.
"I feared that if I were to lose consciousness, he would take my gun and shoot me with it," Frost wrote in his account.
Pictures taken at Sparrow Hospital after the shooting, included in the prosecutor's report, show Frost with streaks of blood running down his face. A doctor characterized his injuries as "significant facial trauma," the prosecutor's report showed.
A report by the Eaton County Medical Examiner found cuts to Guilford's face and upper body and determined entry points of the seven bullets to the front of his body -- evidence that Lloyd said was consistent with Frost's account of a scuffle.
//////////////////////////
teenagers knuckles would of been swollen and bloody
just the taser use would of been reason enough for me to put the cop in prison
cstanleytech
(26,284 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)
pintobean
(18,101 posts)to himself in a cya move?
B2G
(9,766 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)Xithras
(16,191 posts)The family has stated that it isn't illegal to flash your brights at someone, but that's factually false. Michigan law says that it's a citable offense to have your brights on within 500 feet of oncoming traffic if they cause "glare", and doesn't draw any distinction between "switched on" and "flashed on". Failure to keep your brights off is an infraction that will get you two points on your license. The fact that Michigan law doesn't have any exceptions in its law for "flashing", as many other states do, has been the source of arguments between drivers and cops for decades.
In the video, the kid clearly admits to flashing his brights, which gave the officer the legal right to pull him over. The kid shouldn't have been shot over an alleged fist fight, but the initial stop was not illegal.
FWIW, a quick Google search turned up this Michigan Live piece that addressed this exact issue several years ago. Scroll down about halfway to the "doughboy" question to skip to the part about flashing: http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/traffic_talk_should_you_turn_o.html
smiley
(1,432 posts)then why is it ok for the cop have his brights on? Why would the kid be flashing his lights at the cop if the cop didn't have his high beams on?
I apologize in advance if this has been answered somewhere else down thread.
Waldorf
(654 posts)
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)This indicates to me that his headlights were on high or misaligned. Third time he'd stopped sometime for this means there was a problem beyond this young man.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/16/us/michigan-sheriffs-sergeant-teen-shooting-lawsuit/index.html
Waldorf
(654 posts)earlier for flashing their lights. Nothing happened with the earlier stops, no citations were issued. Same thing would have happened if the kid had cooperated. Him physically attacking the cop caused his death.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)coming rather than assaulting the young man.
Back up to the one who caused the problem. Who pulled over someone without cause? Whose lights were unsafe? Who insisted the physical violence?
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)What a lousy law. There are reasons to flash your lights besides someone having their brights on.
Sounds like this cop was abusing the ambiguity. And it does not sound like the kid's action was illegal.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Duh.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)that might support the cop's story is manufactured and it's another massive conspiracy, just like Wilson/Brown.
Here we go again.
Rex
(65,616 posts)This is why it is a waste of time replying to you. You are biased toward law enforcement in every case ever presented.
Here we go again, nope I learned not to waste time on insincere people such as yourself. 
EDIT - oh and I KNOW you did not alert on this post...just to save you some time. 
pintobean
(18,101 posts)I was leaning to the Brown family side, until the cops and the justice department started leaking facts that supported Wilson. You ignored everything that supported Wilson. You still do, even after the DOJ report cleared him.
I haven't taken this cop's side. I'm just pointing out that there's a lot more evidence. You've already jumped to your usual conclusion, though.
Edit - Why would anyone alert on that post? It wouldn't even occur to me.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Now go pester somebody else.
Rex
(65,616 posts)
Well done, you finally got something right.
EDIT - and I KNOW you did not alert on this post either...
randys1
(16,286 posts)Just watching you suffer thru that makes me glad I dont.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)
Never feed them and you will never have any problems. I made the mistake of feeding them on DU1 and DU2 and now they are sometimes begging for-craving that negative attention.
You can even be guaranteed they are watching and charting everything you do - just purposely type something wrong and watch them show up to correct you. It is a sickness in them and one that cannot be helped imo.
randys1
(16,286 posts)It reminds me of the teapartiers who hate me and some of us so much they dedicate their entire days to reading us and talking about us.
Hmmm...wait.
Rex
(65,616 posts)are uncanny. Glad to know other people notice.
Fairgo
(1,571 posts)I try to understand where posters are coming from by observing the scat trail they leave across the landscape. The same posters who conjure outrage out of innuendo in the service of the corporate state suddenly become voodoo empiricists who can't be bothered to collect longitudinal data...in service of the corporate state. Once you understand the common thread, you can better interpret the tactics within thread. Rarely worth engaging unless you don't mind dodging scat.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)
Fairgo
(1,571 posts)Thanks for that.
marym625
(17,997 posts)And John Crawford was aiming a weapon at children. And Tamir Rice, uhm, breathed twice before the cop murdered the 12 year old in cold blood
Fuck the police
brush
(53,771 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)
1monster
(11,012 posts)Last edited Fri Oct 16, 2015, 06:02 PM - Edit history (1)
Eyes are not blackened, lips are not swollen, nose may be swollen, but the dried blood makes it difficult to tell. No cuts.
The dried blood is a sticking point with me--he didn't attempt to wipe it away. The normal, natural, almost unonscious reaction is to wipe blood (water or other liquid) away from one's mouth, if not other parts of the face.
I grant that he had anose bleed. Any other injuries are not proved or disproved by the two posted photos on this thread.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)and the source for much of the blood. His eyes look blackened to me.
But, it's really difficult to make determinations from these pics. Reports and statements from those who treated him are what matter. We don't have those yet.
kcr
(15,315 posts)Lots of dried gunk for that tiny mark on his face
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)The whole point is to look dramatic.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)The audio sounds like a foot chase. Not a fistfight.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)On Sat Oct 17, 2015, 04:09 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
This is becoming a Zimmerman rerun.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7264761
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Yep. Zimmerman rerun. This troll defended Zimmerman up and down du. No shame for trolls, I guess. Hide this trollery.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Oct 17, 2015, 04:17 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Judging ONLY this post and not the poster's history as indicated by the alerter, it is ambiguous at best. I presumed "Zimmerman rerun" to refer to faked/exaggerated injuries or injuries used to obscure wrongdoing.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see anything about this post worth hiding.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This poster is known to some.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Thanks for posting.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)stonecutter357
(12,695 posts)
pintobean
(18,101 posts)EMT carries all the necessary stage makeup, and is trained and lightning fast in its application.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)For all we know he caught an elbow to the nose. I don't know how you get that type of gash in a fight - looks like a sharp object cut.
And I agree it's strange no attempt to wipe off the blood.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)it.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)kcr
(15,315 posts)to make it look like he'd been in a fight.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)1monster
(11,012 posts)Bruises do take time to turn blue and black, but usually there is a red mark where the bruise will show up later.
On looking closer, it does appear that there is a small cut on the guys forehead. But he still didn't attempt to wipe the blood from his mouth. There is no smearing of the blood.
And he shot the unarmed kid SEVEN times. He wanted to make sure that kid was dead.
ileus
(15,396 posts)
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)such as from a pointed instrument - pen, keys, paperclip, or pocket knife.
the injuries are staged from what i see. how could the young man inflict so many forceful "punches" in such a short amount of time? story rehearsed. and of course, the videos altered.
zalinda
(5,621 posts)like there is only one 'cut' and that is at the bridge of his nose. All the blood seems to be stemming from that cut. It is awfully difficult to hit someone and cut his nose like that. And since when does blood bleed upward? And the smear of blood on his forehead near his hairline looks to be a smear from a finger.
The only way to evaluate his injuries is without the blood.
Z
SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)He is a killer - that much is true
damnedifIknow
(3,183 posts)That wound could have been inflicted falling down or even after the incident to make it look better on himself.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Most evidence isn't public until trial.
It's not like we haven't been through all of this before.
Response to pintobean (Reply #119)
damnedifIknow This message was self-deleted by its author.
melman
(7,681 posts)after the fact to make it look like there was a fight?
pintobean
(18,101 posts)in cases like this. It takes a lot of people putting their asses on the line to make lies match all of the evidence. Who would risk their career for a trigger happy murderer?
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)"If it were not for that video camera, Sam would be no different than all of the other [unindicted police shootings of black men], because the second officer was ready to corroborate every lie that the first officer said in the report,” Allen said.
Allen raised the important point that Tensing’s story that he was dragged by the car before shooting—which Deters roundly rejected and cannot be seen anywhere in the video—was backed up by his fellow officers.
Reading the initial police report after having watched the video is a frightful lesson on the lengths to which officers will go to protect one another."
Rex
(65,616 posts)Cops never are in the wrong and nobody would ever cover for a fellow cop. Nevermind the fact that there are videos showing cops doing just that...nope, that part gets ignored in their brain...cops can do no wrong.
A very dangerous mindset imo.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)And cops depend on people trusting them. Dangerous.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I like the town I live in, the cops here still live by the motto of 'to protect and serve' and they are very much involved with the local community. Get out on the highway and deal with Texas DPS...whole different ballgame.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)He just killed an unarmed kid. Better come up with something.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)he used force to arrest a then no violent person who may have become reactively violent. If the kid had the cop on the ground pummeling him that is a different story but even the cops aaren't asserting that.
Fairgo
(1,571 posts)It was Baron von Raschke vs. Dirty Dusty Rhodes. Man, the blood was everywhere.
marym625
(17,997 posts)To me, that looks like he fell and hit his head. No fight in the video and hardly likely he was fighting after being tased
frylock
(34,825 posts)sorry, but my default setting these days is to not believe ANYTHING the cops put in their reports.
SwankyXomb
(2,030 posts)That supposed bruise on Wilson's cheek which is present in every picture of him before the incident? It's a birthmark.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)we see no fight. What I understand the video to represent is the cop attempting to pull the kid out of the car and the kid refused. He finally gets the kid out of the car and after the kid lays down but doesn't spread his right arm (so he can continue recording the incident) the cop kicks the phone out of the kids hand and taser's him. The kid then seems to jump up and run away. The officer gives chase then shoots. Where in all that did the kid have time to injure the officer?
If you watch the video a second time, from the point that the kid lays on the ground to the end, it sounds like a chase not a fight.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)You're supposed to believe the pictures the police released, with maximum blood for effect. Even though the actual wound that supposedly created that blood is about as dangerous as a paper cut, and doesn't look anything like a cut from being struck usually does.
All the cuts I ever had or seen that looked like that that came from a strike were on eyebrows and cheekbones....somewhere with a ridge of bone behind it to open the cut up. I've seen and had cuts in the center of the forehead, but they don't look anything like that. Forehead cuts are usually large gashes that are opened with glancing blows or a massive strike that puts a person out of a fight, not little bitty rips with straight edges.
If I'm going to give the cop the benefit of the doubt, it looks more like a fingernail cut. If not, self inflicted with a razor blade. If that cop gets removed from the force, there's always a career in acting and stage makeup.
Either way, I find it funny that the people that shout about benefit of the doubt always default to benefit of the doubt meaning "Trust the cops until video comes out that proves otherwise, and then we're going to comb his facebook for anything we can use to keep defending the cop.". It's almost like they're pretending to be totally neutral, but aren't neutral at all. Very Fair and Balanced-like.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)That law is stupid and rather pointless, but it is an offense. And given that the cop had already pulled two other people over for the same thing, he should have been responsible enough to get his lights recalibrated.
That said, the cop should have displayed better judgement and been able to keep the situation in hand. The kid should have also made different choices, but he's a kid and not a trained officer. The evidence suggests that this didn't need to result in a dead kid. In theory additional information could make me change my mind, but given there is already tape of the incident (until the last few seconds), I'm not sure what evidence could come out that would make me not think the cop is ultimately responsible for instigating the situation.
Kingofalldems
(38,452 posts)Or maybe the kid who he shot at point blank range.
brush
(53,771 posts)
Ghost in the Machine
(14,912 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)fuck tha police.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)to produce your DL, registration and proof of insurance.
Kid seems to think that HE is the cop, and he is looking to pick a fight. If I tell somebody "you had your brights on" and they tell me "no, I did not" I would at least consider the possibility that I might have been wrong.
It's somewhat annoying to get pulled over. Hell, I got pulled over a couple of nights ago because the cop, driving behind me, thought I did not have a light for my bicycle. Then there's three of them standing around watching me while I try to get my stupid flashlight to turn back on so I can go home from work.
Like that's why we pay taxes, so the cops can keep us safe from bicycles with no light at night.
Still, it is NOT worth fighting over when you can just comply and be on your way in a couple of minutes.
Kingofalldems
(38,452 posts)That's what I got from your post.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)and stupid things to do.
I was just reading stories the other day, about people who died at Yellowstone National Park. One guy, for example, jumped into a hot spring trying to save his friend's dog. He got out, and the dog got out, but the dog died and so did he - from 3rd degree burns all over his body. The water was 200 degrees or so.
Did he DESERVE to die?
I am not using that word, but in both cases, THEY did the very thing that lead to their own death. Had they made other choices, they would still be alive today.
I didn't watch the whole video though before my first reply. It appears that he did not have his license. Also, he sounds a little bit drunk to me (I could be wrong about that, doubtless he will be tested). And, it turns out he was punching the cop when he got shot?
And the cop is the bad guy here? Really?
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)on an unarmed teenager for a routine traffic stop...
Maybe the cop is lying about the high-beams, maybe they were mis-calibrated so they pointed up into drivers' eyes instead of down at the road (which has the same effect), and a lot of HID lights that come on newer cars are brighter than the older style high-beams...
Sadly, it's evident that this kid's parents never had "the talk" with him, since he was "arguing his case" the same way he would to an assistant principal or somebody; and nobody besides celebrities or one-percenters even has a chance of "winning" and argument when the cops are standing next to your window...I wanted so badly to scream at the video "Dude! Just zip your lips and take the ticket, say thank you and have a nice night, and just challenge it in court..."
Yes, the teen played a small role in this, but the burden of responsibility here falls on the adult who is supposed to be a highly-trained professional...
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)The pig is the bad guy here.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)What was the rationale for shooting the kid, rather than, say, bopping the kid over the head with his billy-club, or simply letting the kid run away and having the department arrest him elsewhere later on under more manageable conditions? This is a doofus teenager who flashed his high beams as a mistaken warning, not an armed robber on the lam.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)The kid was doing that to the cop when he got shot? The cop had already used a taser.
I am not gonna second guess somebody who is getting beaten. Start hitting an armed man, and you are probably gonna get shot. The onus falls on the person who STARTS the violence.
There's a really easy way to avoid that, though. Simply refrain from hitting them.
I really don't like seeing young lives cut short, but there are just some things that people should NOT do.
"Don't tug on superman's cape. Don't spit into the wind. Don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger and you don't mess around with Slim."
Rex
(65,616 posts)Nice try but fail.
GeorgeGist
(25,319 posts)avaistheone1
(14,626 posts)Since when have the police been judge, jury and executioner?
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)If you attack them, they generally tend to attack back.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)tough shit for the person being assaulted?
Waldorf
(654 posts)Show him his d/l.
Response to Waldorf (Reply #65)
Jake Stern This message was self-deleted by its author.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)
Moostache
(9,895 posts)If you honestly believe that the behavior of that cop - killing a human being because of a lack of subservience and the temerity of questioning authority - was in ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM "justifiable" then this country is worse off than I ever dreamed possible.
That kind of unquestioning, non-critical acceptance of jack-booted thuggery is insane. That cop is a worthless piece of shit and should be incarcerated for whatever remains of his life. That cop should have been fired and charged with murder. Period. Full stop.
The police are there to "SERVE AND PROTECT", not to "DOMINATE AND COMMAND" and 100% certainly not to "ADJUDICATE AND EXECUTE".
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)One part of their job - to keep unlicensed drivers off the road, and to keep uninsured drivers off the road, and to find stolen cars. Hence, they ask for license, registration, and proof of insurance.
I support that, even though I spent part of a summer driving without a license.
If it really WAS jack-booted thuggery, he never would have asked, over, and over, and over again for the driver to produce license, registration and proof of insurance (did I mention that when I was 24 I also got a ticket for driving without insurance? (but I am still alive today because I didn't start fighting with the cop when he wrote me the ticket)) He would not have warned him - produce these papers or you are going to be arrested for this misdemeanor.
With jack-booted thuggery you don't ask any questions, just pull the guy over, drag him out of his car and start beating on him.
We seem to be worse off because some people are determined to be totally unreasonable.
That's not a recipe for a functioning society.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)the cop arrested the kid for the misdemeanor of failure to produce a driver's license.
The kid resisted arrest. The cop tazed him. The kid attacked the cop - and that's when he got shot.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)The big problem with spending decades covering for "bad" cops is a lot fewer people are willing to trust all cops.
I now treat statements by police officers as the same as testimony from an accomplice - doubtful without third-party verification.
Moostache
(9,895 posts)snort
(2,334 posts)Kid might have gotten away with you distracting the pig by licking his boots.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)that your reply does not exactly demonstrate that you are a rational human being.
Maybe you could have distracted the cop by flinging some snark in his face.
Demit
(11,238 posts)Does that mean obey a cop whatever he tells you to do?
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)The stop was illegal and he had no legal obligation to comply.
Your stop WAS legal and you had a legal obligation to comply with their lawful orders.
It really is simple. Stop supporting cops who are breaking the law and murdering innocent people.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Beat a police officer and yeah, it could be fatal.
17 is old enough to know not to do that.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Brickbat
(19,339 posts)By everyone involved.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Many cops are taught to respond like this guy does. They call it "professionalism". I call it asinine. Just talk to the person, human to human; we all know who has the badge. There's no need to sound like Robocop.
The kid obviously had some wrong information about his rights. The thc in his system probably didn't help with decision making.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Exactly, well put.
We all know the stories about the kindly cop who catches the high school kids drinking at the pit and drives them all home with a warning, knowing that the parents will come down harder than he did. While that model is also problematic in its own way, there's plenty of room between it and the aggressive, over-the-top way this stop was handled.
If the THC report is true, and the kid was incapacitated at the stop (which, to me, it sounds like he is), this video is also an indictment of the drug war. His sad attempts to bluff his way out of the stop show how far people will go to not get caught. The cop's aggression show how far they'll go to catch someone. It's just sad all around.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)That sums it up perfectly.
It is standard procedure, when stopped, for a cop to ask for your DL and registration. What's the big deal?
It is stupid, is such a case as this, to argue with the cop.
NEVER start a conversation with a cop!
But shooting someone over this is a hundredfold stupid!
Rex
(65,616 posts)They just cannot handle the fact that the teenager died, because he flashed his high beams at a cop. Which is not illegal. I expect a 17 year old to be stupid, I do not expect a cop to be a killer.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Saying
Homicidal cops are SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS! NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO FEAR FOR THEIR LIFE WHEN STOPPED BY A COP!!!
Jaysus H. Christ on a Cracker!
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)
Chemisse
(30,809 posts)Kids are going to be drugged up and obnoxious sometimes. Grown adults may be too.
Cops should tuck away their egos and learn how to deal with all kinds of people without shooting them dead.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)..... since every single oh-so-concerned replier to my post obviously never got to the end of it.
Maybe if I put it in bold they will see it.
But shooting someone over this is a hundredfold stupid!
Does it need to be in all caps too?
riversedge
(70,197 posts)for people to become aware. How horrible for this family.
...I feel sorry for this family but I wonder what their feelings towards #BlackLivesMatter before this incident. Point being, it can happen to anyone if you don't do exactly as some police officers order you to do...even if you haven't broken the law.
questionseverything
(9,651 posts)but if a white person trys to say that, they get told they are racists because it happens more often to poc which i am sure it does
we need to ban together to fight this
RKP5637
(67,105 posts)Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)However, I'm pretty sure I don't understand why the cop pulled the kid over in the first place. The kid flashed his high beams at the cop to let him know his brights are on, and the cop claims he turned around and pulled the kid over because his brights weren't on. However, in the video, the cop says that this is the first night he's driven the brand new patrol car, and that it has really bright lights. He even says that he's already been flashed at a couple of times because of them.
So, the cop already knew that it appeared to some other motorists that his brights were on. Why did he feel it necessary to pull the kid over for thinking the lights on his cruiser were really bright.....when he already knew they were?
Additionally, isn't the normal reaction when someone mistakenly flashes us for having our brights on to then briefly flash our own lights to show them that they are really our low beams?
Rex
(65,616 posts)The kid was killed for flashing his high beams at a cop.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)It probably shouldn't be, but in Michigan flashing your brights can get you 2 points on your license.
I've found nothing that states that it is illegal.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)Bottom half of this article discusses it.
http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/traffic_talk_should_you_turn_o.html
Or, if you want the actual law. Michigan Vehicle Code 257.700:
“Whenever the driver of a vehicle approaches an oncoming vehicle within 500 feet, such driver shall use a distribution of light or composite beam so aimed that the glaring rays are not projected into the eyes of the oncoming driver.”
The law goes on to say that the lowest light setting is excepted from the law, even if it actually causes glare. In other words, unless you have high beams that are so dim they don't cause glare, Michigan law requires you to turn your headlights to their lowest setting within 500 feet of another vehicle. And it doesn't contain any exceptions for "flashing".
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bug4bd2oikdkjjvlyms44bf3))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-257-700
For what it's worth, I think the killing was entirely unjustified, but the original traffic stop was legal.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Thanks for the link.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)The stop was legitimate, but it was the officer who escalated it to physical violence by tasing him while he was on the ground. If the officer hadn't tased him, the kid wouldn't have had reason to defend himself, and there would have been no reason for the shooting.
The use of tasers as a "compliance tool" should be illegal. It injects physical violence into a situation where people are already uncooperative and angry, and escalates the violence as often as it resolves the situation. On top of that, EVERYONE has a fundamental human right to defend themselves from assault. Tasing someone is assault.
The cop decided to get violent with the kid simply because the kid was uncooperative. Everything that occurred afterward traces back to that one decision. Even if the kid was beating the hell out of the cop, the FAULT for the shooting still lays with the officer.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I was thinking about when I was 17 and if I would have been that hot headed and ready to fight...yes, (after being tazed) I would have been. If a teacher can control 130 teenagers...a cop should be able to control one teenager. Even if upset, I am getting tired of reading these unnecessary killings because the officer never thought about trying de-escalation. The adult has to take charge and that should never mean unloading a clip into a teen...that is a failure on the adults part imo.
Of course some situations it cannot be helped and I understand that, but in this case...there was zero need for violence and every need for an adult to step up and take charge.
Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)It's not the legality, that I question, but the necessity of it. The officer admitted that he'd already had two other motorists flash their brights at him (he pulled them over too), and that this was the first night that he was driving the new car, and that it's lights were really bright. He already knew his lights were a problem. I don't have an opinion on whether or not the shooting was justified, but the actual stop makes not sense to me. Was the officer going to spend the whole evening pulling people over for letting him know about his messed up lights (that he already knew about)?
Geronimoe
(1,539 posts)If you think a car driving towards you has high beams on you flash your lights. If they are already using low beams they'll flash back. Everyone continues on their way. The cop already knew his lights were very bright as others had flashed their lights at him. Why does he think he should be pulling people over and giving them a hard time, when he already knows his car's lights are the problem.
The kid is refusing to hand over the info because he didn't do anything wrong. The policemen doesn't state what he did wrong or what violation he committed. My recollection in getting pulled over, is that the policemen explains why he pulled me over and what law was violated, then asks for dl, reg, and proof of ins.
knightmaar
(748 posts)... then you take your car back to the shop and tell them to fix the angle of your low beams. If everyone thinks your low beams are high, that's your problem, and it's not just the "brightness", it's the angle.
Whiskeytide
(4,461 posts)When I saw the headline and at the beginning of the tape, I assumed he pulled him over because he wanted to determine why he flashed him. Sometimes flashing your lights is a warning to other drivers that a speed trap is over the next hill. I could see a cop making a stop for such a reason.
But then he admitted on the tape that he knew his lights were bright, and others had done the same that evening. He knew why the kid flashed him, and knew it was not something nefarious. Regardless of what you might otherwise take away from this, it seems very clear that he pulled this kid over just to screw with him. Sad.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)I'd prefer to wait to point fingers until a bit more is known.
We were wrong about Ferguson IMO.
IVoteDFL
(417 posts)Curious.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)I made a snap judgment about the shooting of Mike Brown which I now feel was mistaken based on all the evidence I have seen.
I say that not to offend anyone and I have no intention of getting into an argument about the merits of any particular point of view.
The only relevance of that comment to the current situation is that I am now a lot less apt to jump to any conclusions about blame in these situations.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Because it was speaking to the much wider issue of unarmed black folks ending up dead at the hands of the police (for a variety of circumstances)...
brush
(53,771 posts)in that incident he'd be up on charges. His lie about Brown charging him like a monster would have been blown out of the water (who charges someone firing live round after live round into their body — outside of the movies that is?).
He did his kill before everyone became aware of the necessity to video wrongful police action.
What a lucky killer cop.
Rex
(65,616 posts)all with the help of the PD.
brush
(53,771 posts)And he is 6'4", 240 lbs and claimed he was "scared for his life".
Iggo
(47,551 posts)They're the goddam best!
Pisces
(5,599 posts)they are taught to shoot with lethal force regardless if the suspect has a weapon or not.
knightmaar
(748 posts)In Ontario (Canada) you do. Even if you've done nothing wrong.
If you're driving a car, a police officer can stop you and demand to see license, proof of liability insurance, registration.
"Am I being charged with anything?"
"No."
"Did I do anything wrong?"
"No."
"But I still have to show you my docs?"
"Yes."
What are the laws in Michigan?
(Not that it's relevant to the killing of this kid, but rather to the "constitutional rights" argument.)
knightmaar
(748 posts)So the constitutional rights argument is out the window and ignorant. That leaves "excessive force", "murder" etc.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Now the cop has to live with the fact that he murdered a teen. That has to suck.
wolfie001
(2,227 posts)That's what I've gleaned from this uptick of cop violence. Present your papers and be polite.........or suffer the consequences.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
brush
(53,771 posts)tabasco
(22,974 posts)I wonder why there is no video of the alleged "fight."
Duppers
(28,120 posts)Not all police by far but too many enter the field of law enforcement for that very reason!
"They want to kill someone." Was told this by an ex-cop!
wolfie001
(2,227 posts)Even the ones who murder citizens. 
questionseverything
(9,651 posts)why does the cops camera stop recording?
this police cam stuff isn't going to change much,they just turn them off when they want
Rex
(65,616 posts)to die 'accidentally'. Shouldn't be a possibility in a sane society, but here we are.
knightmaar
(748 posts)Given that he found the headlights too bright, it's unlikely he could have known the type of car he was flashing.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I will not ever do that again, just not worth it.
Initech
(100,065 posts)They have abused the privilege for far too long. How many more have to die needlessly before something is done?
Rex
(65,616 posts)Cops need to be trained in how to handle a crisis without always having to resort to their firearm. Seems they go for it all to easy.
a kennedy
(29,655 posts)argumentative and agitated when Deven asserted that the officer had been driving with his high beams on and resisted producing his ID."
OMGosh, I worked on our college campus cop shop, and this is EXACTLY how one officer on staff would act. Always puffed his chest out, would talk quieter, and would initiate responses to students that would make the student more upset. Many times I would worry the student would come back with a gun and kill the officer or us. 
Horrible, horrible person and officer.....I always wondered how he got that job. All the other officers would know how to defuse a situation and most times have the student laughing or at least relaxed.
libodem
(19,288 posts)God damn it!
brush
(53,771 posts)Whites need to take a page out of BLM's book and get out in the street and start protesting.
It's happening more and more often to whites too as our society rapidly devolves into a police state.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)The cop had to know there was something wrong with his lights because he said other people were flashing him.
Boxerfan
(2,533 posts)I am permitted for the park & know the rangers. All is good & I get exercise.
Long story short-I was not holding the leash. Sherriff comes up & starts doing the hand on his gun is that your dog speech. I tried explaining I was permitted and the dog has never been and is obviously not a problem.
He chewed me for 1/2 hour for the offense of asserting my side of the situation. I had to cow-tow & respect his authori-tie because I was starting to realize this fuck was NUTS. Fuming angry over a dog off the leash. And because I had the temerity to talk back he went full ballistic.
I got the distinct feeling if I was in any way confrontational-or black-he would have shot me on the spot.
Bulging veins & likely a steroid abuser was my take-and dangerously psychopathic. And he had a gun & a badge.
He left me scared & frankly afraid to ever ask them for help.
What he did not know is I have been asked by the PD a few times to search for bullets. And I felt good about helping them. Next time I'm so sorry I forgot an appointment.
Demit
(11,238 posts)I'm wondering if that's a helpful sign that a cop will be unusually aggressive or maybe on steroids, or if it's just a cop fad these days, to look real tough to intimidate everyone.
Yes, it makes sense to kowtow to a crazy person to get out of a situation in one piece.
tblue37
(65,336 posts)attitudes that are typically associated with skinheads.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)It was frightening and made me really angry. No more ms middle aged white woman being anything beyond the amount of civility needed to get them to leave me alone.
Yes, it made me really aware of the privilege I have in my life and seriously pissed off at this common treatment for others.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)
patsimp
(915 posts)Horrible.
Screw fox news for enabling these killers.
SwankyXomb
(2,030 posts)Cop killers is something else entirely.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,325 posts)And then proceeded to argue with him over his bright lights he KNEW were a problem. Just to be a dick.
Now an unarmed kid ends up dead and we are supposed to take the cops side of the story as gospel?
Fuck that. Playing his little game ended in a dead human being. Fuck him.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)
Oneironaut
(5,493 posts)
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)The kid gave a car he didn't know was a cop a courtesy flash to alert him to high beams, the "horrible decisions" from then on out were all on the cop.
damnedifIknow
(3,183 posts)Why stop him and harass this teen for flashing his brights? Now this kid is dead over something so damn trivial.
Reter
(2,188 posts)I mean I don't advocate tasing often, but it beats shooting. Plus he even warned the kid "or you're gonna get tased."
Oneironaut
(5,493 posts)Reter
(2,188 posts)However, only one wire hit the kid, resulting in some pain but not enough to render him unconscious. Apparently, this enraged the kid.
hack89
(39,171 posts)The Taser was shot too close to its target and didn't administer a full shock, the report by the county prosecutor later noted. Instead of being incapacitated, Guilford leaps up angrily
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/16/us/michigan-sheriffs-sergeant-teen-shooting-lawsuit/index.html
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)tblue37
(65,336 posts)the cop tased him for not putting his hands where he wanted them, even though they were in sight and the kid was not resisting.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)The cop needs a supervisor to watch what's happening to tell him to back off when he starts to escalate the situation like this.
This was an open and shut case of a cop having a power trip and losing control.
Imagine if his radio suddenly said, "What the hell are you doing? Let him go! He didn't break any laws!"
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... flashing lights is technically a violation even if it's done with good intentions.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)TipTok
(2,474 posts)It was likely the stuff that happened after the stop that led to such an unfortunate conclusion.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)tblue37
(65,336 posts)anything untoward occurs.
ON EDIT: I mean uploaded to a place where the PD cannot get at it to alter or delete it.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)"I feel sorry for this family but I wonder what their feelings towards #BlackLivesMatter before this incident."
Guess what? Black people don't own police brutality.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)I do wonder how the family "that had great respect for law enforcement" viewed the #BlackLivesMatter activists prior to this happening. It wasn't a snarky comment in any way.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)Reaction to being punched, grabbed, tasked, clubbed, or shot. Plus it could have caused by falling, the cop hitting himself with gun recoil, or a million other things.
Cop had no excuse to pull him over. Full stop. Flashing brights is not a crime. Cop just decided to lecture the kid that you better not flash brights at me, even though my low hid beams are just as bright as brights and a reasonable person would think they are brights. Lol
pintobean
(18,101 posts)that says that flashing brights is illegal, and sources the claim.
Cops will shoot before losing a fight because when they do lose, they often get shot with their own gun, Then you have an armed cop killer on the loose with nothing more to lose.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)cadaverdog
(228 posts)He didn't have his license to turn over, so he thought he would try to talk his way out of a bad situation. Maybe his license was suspended. The cop was very professional until the kid started playing the smart ass, and then refused to follow the officers orders. "How do I know you're even a cop?" Duh. Maybe the flashing red lights on the car should be your first clue?
This is not to say I don't have questions with what transpired once the kid was out of the car. It appears the cop used his taser on the kid, to no effect. How is that? What caused the kid to try to mix it up with a law officer? How did the kid inflict the apparent injuries to the officer? And so on.
One more thing; why did the cop turn around and persue this driver if the driver only flashed his lights once? Was their something about his driving?
Yes, we have a problem with rogue cops in this Country, but this is not the case I would hold up as an example of "Cops Gone Bad," unless further investigation proves otherwise.
Fire away.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)You admit a bunch of really important questions remain but state unequivocally that kid died for lack of license.
cadaverdog
(228 posts)would have handed it over to the cop, maybe or maybe not have gotten a ticket, and been on his way to his girlfriends house. Alive.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)Just like Fox "News"
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)Why did he pull the kid over? "Geez!!......Now another one flashes their brights at me. I'm going to have to have these headlamps checked after this shift." That would be the logical reaction to my mind.
But he pulls him over.
Initially, the cop doesn't sound in any way angry or confrontational at all. He asks for the kid's IDs and volunteers that he stopped him because he flashed his lights. ("Really? They sure looked like they were your brights to me. Sorry about that."..........That's the way to not escalate the situation) Instead the little punk decides to argue about it. What did he think he would possibly gain by this tactic? We'll never know now.
And then he refuses to show his IDs which, as I understand it, isn't an option in Michigan. (And, parenthetically, first he says he doesn't have his license on him, then he says he does. Now the cop knows the kid isn't adverse to lying......"What's he trying to hide??"
What's the deal with that? Why not just show his license and registration? Is this the (sorry guys.....predominantly male) "Stand up to power" bullshit? Because bullshit is exactly what it is. Especially when you consider that that acknowledges that it's the other guy who has the power.
Kid asks to see the officer's badge. I wouldn't have gone there at this point, but it's not an entirely unreasonable request.......just as the cop asking for his IDs wasn't unreasonable. But, because there's plenty of stupidity to go around, now it's Officer Friendly who refuses. The guy who's supposed to be the grown-up not only allows his buttons to be pushed, but allows this fact to show. "I'll show this kid that I can be just as juvenile and argumentative as he can. Hell, I'm older and had more practice." Effing brilliant.
Mr. Policeman, at this point, attempts for just a moment to step back into rational adult mode by calling for back-up.......and then, instead of just hanging tight until another car shows up, he reverts directly back into idiocy and proceeds to escalate the situation by getting physical. I get that by now the cop may well have been wondering if the kid has a weapon or a trunk full of cocaine or.......something, but he's got someone coming to assist. WAIT FOR IT!
So the kid gets madder and continues to fight back.......which makes the cop madder, and possibly thinks that now he might actually be in some sort of danger, so he gets more aggressive.
All of this because apparently neither one of them was able to be reasonable. The boy doesn't deserve to be dead because of it for sure, but he did play his part. In the end, the cop should have been able to find a way to keep his cool, and he didn't.
What a monumentally stupid, sad course of events.
Rex
(65,616 posts)were an issue, but instead of fixing the problem he just made it worse by doing nothing about it at all. I guess it was more important to pull people over, then get new headlights that were not as bright. And now he has a dead kid to think about every night he goes to bed and realizes all he had to do was let him go and not stop him at all.
It was the cops choice and he blew it. He had the kid tazed on the ground and just couldn't wait for backup...a hero now reduced to a zero.
I expect 17 year olds to have a mouth and back talk authority, I don't expect a grown man with 8 years experience on the force to murder someone in cold blood. Just because he could. How is it teachers can handle situations that cops fail to be able to handle?
Moral of the story, never flash your lights it could be a cop that has your name on all their bullets.
Waldorf
(654 posts)cop and a fight ensued. I blame the kid for the whole thing.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)certain mental health issues like PTSD.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Waldorf
(654 posts)behind his back. He's not cooperating, gets tased, then he charges the officer and the scuffle begins.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)olddots
(10,237 posts)I would never bring that to their attention because they are the law ,above the law and non police are the enemy .......its called the militarized police like in other fascistic countries .
Rex
(65,616 posts)to their exit. Only a fool that wanted to die would chase them and make a citizens arrest.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)Last edited Fri Oct 16, 2015, 04:00 PM - Edit history (1)
Black folks are the canary in the coal mine. If you think killer cops will be satisfied with just killing Black people you are sadly mistaken.
Routine traffic stops that end in violent death of unarmed citizens is not acceptable! The flips and twists some people make to excuse this type of behavior is crazy. Just because some citizen is unwilling or unable to follow commands should not be an excuse to kill them in a hail of gun fire. Unarmed people suspected of minor traffic infractions should not be treated like someone who just shot up a bank in an armed robbery.
Peace officers should bring peace to the communities they serve. Not escalate every interaction with citizens to a gun blazing killapoloza because they disagree with you or don't follow instructions immediately. How many times do we have to see unarmed citizens gunned down because they are deaf, drunk, high, mentally disabled, a stupid asshole, or just having a bad day?
Remember that day your dog died, or the day you got laid off, or the day you found out your spouse was cheating on you? What if that day some asshole cop starting giving you a hard time? Well you could be dead now because you didn't grovel properly in front of some asshole cop.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)They are unable or unwilling to curb police brutality. Or else we should all prepare to see these abuses continue, IMO (sadly).
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)he blinked his headlights at the officer's car and then did not perfectly obey the officer's unjustified demands?
Are we living in a police state?
This kind of makes me wonder.
The oligarchs own our election system, and a certain segment of our police are running amok, a bunch of gun-crazy bullies in too many places. How do guys like that officer get hired by police forces?
Waldorf
(654 posts)MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)to that point.
And guess what? A natural reaction to being tased can be to punch for two reasons
a. Pain and flight vs flight. Once the 5 seconds of tase is over it's very possible he attacked the cop because fight or flight kicked in
b. Tasers send a message to garble the signals from your CNS to your muscles. A good connection usually means you fall down. A bad connection could cause god knows what reaction (semi garbled messages to muscles), including an errant punch or elbow that may have not even been his choice to do.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I did not see that, but I could not see the video very well, so I am asking.
Even so, the kid was unarmed and much smaller than the officer.
In my view, if I were on a jury, I would probably go for a claim for damages for excessive use of force and a guilty on a charge of that excessive use of force.
It was incredibly bad judgment on the part of the officer. The officer was so much larger than the boy and had a gun. Good lord. What kind of country are we?
Waldorf
(654 posts)He pretty much dragged him out as he was not cooperating and got him on the ground. Kid seemed more interested in filming the thing than resolving the stop.
"And interviews with Guilford's father and girlfriend revealed that the teen had become strongly focused on YouTube videos of police encounters, the prosecutor said.
"They said that Deven's focus on these videos was recent, sudden, out of the ordinary, and may have influenced Deven in this traffic stop," Lloyd wrote in the report."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/16/us/michigan-sheriffs-sergeant-teen-shooting-lawsuit/index.html
The cop finally tasered him, which didn't stop the guy and then he got up, charged the cop and the physical altercation happened.
You can skip to the 5:10 mark of the video and see when the taser happened and the assault.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)brights were too bright. The officer was just way out of line in that video.
The boy did not need to show his ID. He had done nothing of any interest to the officer. It was the officer whose lights, for whatever reason and as the officer admitted, were offensively bright.
I suppose the officer will be excused for this murder. Such is "justice" in our country when police officers are exercising their authority.
We need to weed the bullies out of our police departments and get rational, less emotional people into police work.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)That's how it works.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)and there are many, too many, where the cop should be transferred to the American Branch of the Iraqi police and let them have at it with ISIS.
Such talent is waste here.
Darb
(2,807 posts)It's probably best to abide by what the armed, potentially psychopathic shithook has to say, just to be safe. You will end up dead and your family will get no justice. Hopefully, one day, we can clean house of these lunatics and get back to protect and serve.
I mean really, that kid couldn't hurt that cop and certainly couldn't kill him with his bare hands, so use of deadly force was in no way necessary. Who trains these fucking creeps anyway. How about mixing in some wrestling moves. Pricks.
Moral of the story, until we clean house, comply and get the fuck out of there as fast as possible. The less exposure to a fucking cop the safer you will be.
marym625
(17,997 posts)But I resent the little message about Black Lives Matter. Yes, white people are also harassed and killed by cops. There's a story about a white guy that had aspergers that was beaten bloody for hours by cops before he was finally killed. Along with other horrific stories, mostly poor and/or mentally disabled.
That doesn't change the fact that people of color, especially black people, are killed by cops or jailers in unprecedented numbers. It's epidemic in the US. Black Lives Matter is bringing attention to all of the horror. Horrors that are in a great majority put upon the black community.
If anyone thinks that the war on minorities and on women won't eventually encompass all of the 99%, you're sadly mistaken
#BlackLivesMatter
#DevenGuilford
#FTP
#OscarGrant
#SandraBland
#TamirRice
snooper2
(30,151 posts)
ladjf
(17,320 posts)were and what happened.
One of the participants was an adult professional policeman. The other, a young and perhaps not too bright civilian.
Within a few minutes into the tape, it was clear that this confrontation was headed toward a bad outcome for the young man.
The fact that he failed to recognize this suggests some form of impairment. The fact that the policeman didn't recognize that
the young man did not intend to cooperate in any way was a breech of judgment on his part.
I'm not going to start going through a list of "better" moves that could be made by the officer. I'm simply going to say that
the necessity of subduing him immediately due to his failure to show his driver's license did not reach the level of killing him.
But, the act his been done. The young man's life is over. The officer's life will be permanently damaged, regardless of the outcome of his hearings. One person dead, the other's life ruined due to disobeying the order to show license.
I do believe that due to the lengthy video evidence, the punishment of the officer is going to be more severe than he anticipated.
He was the trained professional guardian of the public. The boy was a young and apparently naive citizen who didn't deserve to die over the particulars of this incident.
The officer will claim that he feared for his life, but, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, he might be ruled innocent.
Meanwhile, incidents similar to this continue to occur all over America. We could do better than this.
tblue37
(65,336 posts)videotape. The case will probably be sttled, but this cop won't even get a black mark on his record, since the shooting has already been deemed "justified," just as most are, since the cops are always investigating themselves.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts) Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)If i had to guess he's been marinating in one of these "sovereign citizen" households- "the police dont have a right to make me carry a drivers license!"
Its hard to say about the events immediately preceding the shooting, because the camera is moving- but for the majority of the encounter, the kid was at fault- not the cop.
brush
(53,771 posts)Do you know of any 17-year-olds with mature, adult judgment?
The cop on the other hand is an adult, a sergeant no less, who did not use mature, adult judgment to de-escalate the situation but escalated it instead.
He was the adult who handled the situation abysmally — grown man who couldn't control a scrawny kid weighing no more than 150 lbs wringing wet.
He "feared for his fucking life" I guess as he pumped seven bullets into the kid. That's what all these killer cops say.
What a coward.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Someone put it in this kid's head that "if you get pulled over, cops dont have the right to see your identification". That's simply fucking false. It's called a driver's license, so if he didnt understand he needed to have one to drive, whoever gave him the keys to the car shouldnt have let him drive it.
He seemed to really badly want to get into it with the cop. Stupid. Doesn't mean he deserved what happened- not by a long shot- but he handled it like an idiot. The cop was trying to de-escalate the situation, at least at first. Once he had a guy on his hands a) doing the "i dont need to show you my license and registration" and then b) changing his story as to whether or not he actually had his license (and furthermore, was acting erratic and potentially inebriated) no, he wasnt gonna go "oh, my bad, you can just go" ... He was going to get him out of the car. He told the kid in pretty clear terms, look, either you comply with a lawful order, or i will take you in.
Picking a fight with a cop for no reason is stupid, i dont care how old you are.
brush
(53,771 posts)The cop used horrible judgment, first by just not letting the kid go once he explained that it was a courtesy flash because the cop's brights seemed to be on. Remember the cop admitted that had already happened two other times that night.
There never had to be any "let me have your license" or any of that. The kid was letting him know he was endangering drivers with extra bright lights but the cop, with his huge ego, couldn't admit that he may have had his brights on. It should have been a simple "okay, thanks for letting me know. I'll get it checked out, now drive safely". That whole protect and serve thing. Ever heard of it, or the 4th Amendment?
But no, the bully's ego couldn't allow that. He had to take it further by showing he was large and in charge. Then he couldn't wait for back-up. By not doing that, which further escalated the situation, everything spiral out of control needlessly.
The cop was dealing with a typical teenager whose judgment was not mature. The video showed that the adult cop's judgment no more developed than the kid's. Since he had made a huge deal out of a courtesy flash, by not letting the kid go all he had to do was be patient until another officer got there then both could get the kid out of car easily.
Instead he pulled the kid out, couldn't control the scrawny kid eve after tazing him, then, off-camera all of a sudden, he killed him.
All of it could have easily been avoided by the cop using just sensible, adult judgment. No way the cop handled it properly.
No one can be taken seriously who contends that. That kid is dead.
Here's another video that's very eye-opening on this case. Pls watch it and see if you feel the same way about this cop.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017301422
DawgHouse
(4,019 posts)DLevine
(1,788 posts)needs to watch that video. The cop never should have made the stop. He knew his lights were causing problems for other drivers. And he certainly escalated the situation by being physically aggressive instead of waiting for backup.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Not sure about the "sovereign citizen" theory. Likely had his license suspended or never renewed it. Came off as someone using mind altering substances.
If it would have been me, I would have honestly said, "I do not have my license on me, officer." They can look up on their computer whether or not you actually are licensed to drive. Possibly get off with a warning or ticket that could be reduced or dropped if you show up to court.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)THe cop probably wouldve just give him a warning, unless the kid was impaired which is what it sounded like.
damnedifIknow
(3,183 posts)He should have never been pulled over in the first place. You sound like you expect people to cower to police and that's just plain wrong and shouldn't happen in this country.
I saw a person being pulled over a few nights ago and this person didn't pull over right away and just kept a slow pace to a well lit gas station and then he pulled up right next to the window. I drove by thinking what a smart move on the part of the driver. When people have to resort to doing this type of thing then something is wrong.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)to only stop for the police in a well-lit area with people around. What does that tell you about the PD? And this comes from the police.
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)Here in Indiana someone is going around the state impersonating a cop, pulling people over, etc.
The cops have said that if drivers are suspicious, they are to ask the cop to produce ID, ask the cop to call for a supervisor or for backup, or call 911 (or other official number) to confirm that the traffic stop is legitimate. All perfectly reasonable requests that should be understood and fulfilled by the officer with no complaints, IMHO.
But what if the cop is for real, and takes exception to all of the above, if someone dares to question who he is? What if this cop misinterprets genuine skepticism for belligerence or willful disobedience? Is there the possibility that the driver can wind up tazed, beaten -- or worse? Would you want to take the chance of pissing off a cop on the basis that your instincts are telling you something just isn't right? I think the answers to both are clear.
This is the climate the police have created for themselves by having a few rogues who shouldn't be anywhere near law enforcement. How can you blame the public for having a basic distrust of any cop anymore?
tblue37
(65,336 posts)before pulling over. Like this one, for example:
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/porter/woman-said-safety-was-reason-she-didn-t-pull-over/article_306f1051-5412-5267-898b-aadd0041aa57.html
"Woman said safety was reason she didn't pull over for police"
(snip)
Assuming the car behind her was a police officer, Good said she slowed her vehicle, put on her emergency flashers, waved her arm out the window to acknowledge the pursing car and continued for less than a mile where she pulled over into the lighted parking lot at the Kohl's department store in Portage.
The decision not to immediately stop resulted in her being handcuffed and taken to jail by Porter County Sheriff's Department Patrolman William Marshall on a felony charge of resisting arrest. It may also cost her her job, because a nurse cannot work after being convicted of a felony, she said.
"I felt I didn't do anything wrong," Good said. "I got to a safe place and I told him that."
(snip)
Good said Marshall was very angry as he approached her car and said to her, "What in the hell are you doing? I could arrest you for this."
(snip)
sub.theory
(652 posts)The cop is a disaster and has no business being a cop. He pulled the kid over because he's on some powertrip that someone had the audacity to flash him (after he had already been alerted about it by others?!). His refusal to fully identify himself is extremely concerning too. He also escalated a situation that did not have to be escalated. He needs to be held accountable for all of that. At the very least fired, and if crimes committed then prosecuted.
That said, it's been reported that the kid ended up attacking him. If that's true, he has a legit self defense claim in that case. An unimaginably stupid thing for this kid to do. If it's true.
So, yeah. Comply with the cops, even if they are clearly in the wrong like this asshole was. Because otherwise you might get shot. This is also again why body cameras and independent review boards are so needed. Comply and then file a complaint later. Better than being shot by some asshole.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)I put up a fight once when a cop stopped me on a deserted street at night. I at first refused to roll the window down but I did hand him my papers. I asked him how did I know he's a real cop cuz he was shining his flashlight right in my face. I think he showed me his badge but that can be fake too. I cant remember if I ever did roll the window down. He gave me a ticket and I went to court to explain but the judge didnt care of course.
I dont think the kid had any ID so that escalated things. And he sounded drunk or high too making it worse.
Loki
(3,825 posts)They were in the 60's and they still are. They can't even handle a 17 year old boy without killing him. There are no good cops because the so called good ones remain silent because they are cowards, and they wonder why people don't respect them anymore. I don't, and if they can't clean out the shit hole that they and their departments have become, well, bring it on. I will work to make sure we have protection against them and that the long overdue prosecution of these criminals begins and they spend their lives in prison with the people they have abused.
romanic
(2,841 posts)Police brutality is everyone's issue and we all got to face it together.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Good lord.
Alkene
(752 posts)alphafemale
(18,497 posts)They will get away with it.
They will have people defending them even if they are seen murdering you on camera.
And a reason to murder you can be that you look nervous.
"Why are you nervous?"
B Calm
(28,762 posts)Loki
(3,825 posts)They took their Facebook page offline. Wonder how they would respond to emails.........treich@eatoncounty.org Sheriff Tom Reich,
jcook@eatoncounty.org Undersheriff Jeffery Cook.
UCmeNdc
(9,600 posts)It can happen to anyone.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)When Can a Law Enforcement Officer Stop Someone?
Before a police officer can properly stop a person and ask for identification, the officer must have a reasonable, articulable suspicion that a crime has occurred or is about to occur.
This means the officer must be able to state facts and circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to believe that a crime occurred or will soon.
For example, if an officer observes a car driving lawfully in the early morning hours, those facts alone are not sufficient to indicate that a crime occurred, and the officer could not properly stop the vehicle.
On the other hand, if the officer had information that a car of the same color, make and model, and with the same number of occupants, just left the scene of a near-by crime, the officer would have specific facts suggesting that a crime occurred involving the occupants of the car and could lawfully stop the vehicle.
........................................
A number of defenses are commonly raised by those charged with failure to identify to a police officer.
(First) The law enforcement officer improperly stopped the defendant
As previously discussed, a law enforcement officer must have reasonable, articulable suspicion that a crime has occurred or is about to occur. If the law enforcement officer stops the defendant without a reasonable belief that a crime has occurred, the prosecutor cannot use the defendant’s refusal to answer as evidence of failure to identify to a police officer.
http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Failure-identify-police-officer.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I UNDERSTAND that being legally in the right didn't help this young man. I UNDERSTAND that some would argue that "common sense" would mean obeying the cop to keep safe. I UNDERSTAND that some would shrug and say "What's the big deal? Just give your ID, license, and registration, man!"
BUT ALL WE HAVE IS THE LAW. And if we continue to allow cops to make up laws on the spot and then lethally enforce them if we do not "obey," we INVITE OUR OPPRESSION.
And will thoroughly deserve it.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)is the title of Michigan's driver handbook. Page 74 (82 of the pdf) says:
500 feet of an oncoming vehicle. Also, dim your lights for
pedestrians and cyclists
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/wedmk_16312_7.pdf
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)other posters) pointing out that flashing your headlights is in fact illegal in Michigan, (s)he keeps insisting that the officer had no reason to stop the kid. Something about being entitled to one's opinion but not to one's facts...