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dorkulon

(5,116 posts)
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 01:29 AM Jan 2016

Help debunk this viral story about the Hammond/Bundy debacle from "theconservativetreehouse.com"

I'm guessing you've seen it; I've seen it a few times now. It purports to give the 'full story' and background on the case. The website name and Breitbart-glorifying banner are clear indicators it's probably not fully on the up-and-up. But I just don't know enough to show how and where it's factually incorrect. There's a lot of bias and fundamental attribution error, but I'm quite sure some of it is just plain bullshit, and that'd be helpful to know. So, any help would be appreciated.

It's looong. Sorry. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

39 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Help debunk this viral story about the Hammond/Bundy debacle from "theconservativetreehouse.com" (Original Post) dorkulon Jan 2016 OP
You actually expect any of us to click on that? Atman Jan 2016 #1
I'm sure that will hurt them a lot more than actually poking holes in their narrative. dorkulon Jan 2016 #4
Then since you've already clicked on it, give us a brief synopsis. Atman Jan 2016 #5
The Treehouse is pushing the Hammond attempt at alibi creation in their next day report of the fire Monk06 Jan 2016 #8
Thank you for that. trotsky Jan 2016 #10
Plus the fire was started during a drought "Burn Ban" Jim Beard Jan 2016 #13
I'd rather know what those assholes are saying easttexaslefty Jan 2016 #23
It's a really long list of purported "facts" about the case. Too long to synopsize really. dorkulon Jan 2016 #9
No. Lil Missy Jan 2016 #2
That site needs goats. Nt gwheezie Jan 2016 #3
You're baaaaaad! pinboy3niner Jan 2016 #7
It sure does!! 2naSalit Jan 2016 #28
LOL Skittles Jan 2016 #6
I'm not completely stupid, you know. dorkulon Jan 2016 #19
the conservativetreehouse? Skittles Jan 2016 #21
Better to understand it than easttexaslefty Jan 2016 #25
Nope. easttexaslefty Jan 2016 #24
don't know what they are saying? Skittles Jan 2016 #30
I didn't know all of the in & outs of this story. easttexaslefty Jan 2016 #31
Why so rude? Having a bad day? easttexaslefty Jan 2016 #32
if you are fine with rightwing bullshit links on DU, FINE Skittles Jan 2016 #33
I'm good with knowing EXACTLY what they are SAYING easttexaslefty Jan 2016 #34
I started writing this long debunk for LiberalAmerica.org, but it got to be too long and I gave up. Arananthi Jan 2016 #11
Thanks for this dorkulon Jan 2016 #17
Yay!!! easttexaslefty Jan 2016 #26
I knew about the effect of grazing easttexaslefty Jan 2016 #27
A couple of additional things bhikkhu Jan 2016 #37
links please JBigDog Jan 2016 #39
Merry Christmas, everyone! A fresh, non-ad-revenue-giving archive.is link to the page. Shandris Jan 2016 #12
here's the full story=these people are tresspassing on federal property and threatening with weapons spanone Jan 2016 #14
LOL! Perfect! eom fleur-de-lisa Jan 2016 #16
OK, I bit and read it MosheFeingold Jan 2016 #15
Agreed. dorkulon Jan 2016 #18
The basic story as you summarized it, is true MH1 Jan 2016 #22
But that's not the case. easttexaslefty Jan 2016 #29
My sense is the Hammonds must have had a lousy lawyer bhikkhu Jan 2016 #38
Conservative treehouse? KamaAina Jan 2016 #20
It's hard to know whether this has been posted.... Bigmack Jan 2016 #35
Ya baby. easttexaslefty Jan 2016 #36

Atman

(31,464 posts)
1. You actually expect any of us to click on that?
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 01:50 AM
Jan 2016

The Cave.
The Treehouse.

How about The Sewer?

Care to give us a synopsis? I'm not giving any of these bat-shit crazy Fred Grady/Franksolich dirt bags one click.

dorkulon

(5,116 posts)
4. I'm sure that will hurt them a lot more than actually poking holes in their narrative.
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 03:10 AM
Jan 2016

Whatever. Sorry.

Atman

(31,464 posts)
5. Then since you've already clicked on it, give us a brief synopsis.
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 03:22 AM
Jan 2016

Fuck blind links. Give us even a HINT of what you want us to click on. Otherwise, just remove the post, as it is worthless.

Monk06

(7,675 posts)
8. The Treehouse is pushing the Hammond attempt at alibi creation in their next day report of the fire
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 08:13 AM
Jan 2016

Last edited Tue Jan 5, 2016, 06:37 PM - Edit history (2)

to the BLM That being the fire started on their land and accidentally crossed into BLM administered refuge land and burned a few acres

In the trial it was revealed that the Hammonds organized an illegal deer hunt on BLM property and then started the fire to destroy evidence of the hunt. The fire went wild and destroyed 163 acres and almost killed a teenaged relative of the Hammonds who was trapped by the flames and had to seek refuge in a creek. He testified against them and was threatened by the Hammonds for snitching them out

This is the second of two fires that they set. The first one was a backfire gone wrong that aborted a BLM firecrew from fighting another wild fire nearby resulting in significantly larger damage and necessitating the evac of fire fighters

The Hammonds are nasty creeps and they haven't killed anybody to date just by shit assed luck

They deserve jail and that's where they are going

 

Jim Beard

(2,535 posts)
13. Plus the fire was started during a drought "Burn Ban"
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 05:11 PM
Jan 2016

my northern Texas county has been under burn bans and people know why and only loonies break the ban. It means conditions are severly dry and could get out of control fast.

easttexaslefty

(1,554 posts)
23. I'd rather know what those assholes are saying
Fri Jan 8, 2016, 09:13 PM
Jan 2016

AND know how the real truth too.
Gives me more knowledge to try to fight their bullshit.
Thank you.

dorkulon

(5,116 posts)
9. It's a really long list of purported "facts" about the case. Too long to synopsize really.
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 11:43 AM
Jan 2016

But seriously, forget it. This has indeed been a worthless exchange.

2naSalit

(86,534 posts)
28. It sure does!!
Fri Jan 8, 2016, 09:26 PM
Jan 2016

However, one of the papers in my area has that article in it too and it's at this link:

http://www.islandparknewsonline.com/#!page-8/cf6j


/v1/fill/w_1333,h_1048,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/4537b1_c63e0edb24f84fb880862d865e4e6ef8.jpg

dorkulon

(5,116 posts)
19. I'm not completely stupid, you know.
Fri Jan 8, 2016, 06:46 PM
Jan 2016

I have been alive for a while and have some idea of the media environment I exist within.

I'm looking for good, verified info to counteract this garbage with. Does that seem naive?

Skittles

(153,147 posts)
21. the conservativetreehouse?
Fri Jan 8, 2016, 08:38 PM
Jan 2016

you can easily Google and debunk conservative trash VERY easily so YES it does seem naive

easttexaslefty

(1,554 posts)
24. Nope.
Fri Jan 8, 2016, 09:16 PM
Jan 2016

If you don't know what they are saying, exactly, how can you push against it? You can't.
I rather know what bullshit they are spewing.

Skittles

(153,147 posts)
30. don't know what they are saying?
Sat Jan 9, 2016, 06:15 PM
Jan 2016

as if the corporate media does not let us know? I don't want to see conservative garbage in DU, under the bullshit excuse "I am looking for facts". Good lord, we are that fucking stupid.

easttexaslefty

(1,554 posts)
31. I didn't know all of the in & outs of this story.
Sat Jan 9, 2016, 09:19 PM
Jan 2016

You did? I don't hang out with rightwingers, I don't watch fox. I rather learn their crazy logic here.

Skittles

(153,147 posts)
33. if you are fine with rightwing bullshit links on DU, FINE
Sat Jan 9, 2016, 09:26 PM
Jan 2016

I AM ALLOWED TO NOT BE FINE WITH IT

*DONE HERE*

easttexaslefty

(1,554 posts)
34. I'm good with knowing EXACTLY what they are SAYING
Sat Jan 9, 2016, 09:28 PM
Jan 2016

Yes, I am.
Know why?
Knowledge is power.
Can you dig that?

Arananthi

(1 post)
11. I started writing this long debunk for LiberalAmerica.org, but it got to be too long and I gave up.
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 04:58 PM
Jan 2016

Last edited Wed Jan 6, 2016, 06:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Sorry, I'm not going to copy over all of the formatting because I'm a bit crunched for time right now, but PM me and I'll email you the version with all the links and stuff.


A few days ago, a number of conservative websites started quoting the same long piece about the history behind the domestic terrorists, and it's been quoted a heck of a lot on social media by the idiots who think the #YeeHawdists are doing something noble. There's just one problem…it's absolutely full of lies. Here, for all of you who are interested in the truth, is the truth. I've put the original from the Treehouse in italics, and the real history afterward, with citations.

The Harney Basin (where the Hammond ranch is established) was settled in the 1870’s. The valley was settled by multiple ranchers and was known to have run over 300,000 head of cattle. These ranchers developed a state of the art irrigated system to water the meadows, and it soon became a favorite stopping place for migrating birds on their annual trek north.

In 1908 President Theodor Roosevelt, in a political scheme, create an “Indian reservation” around the Malheur, Mud & Harney Lakes and declared it “as a preserve and breeding ground for native birds”. Later this “Indian reservation” (without Indians) became the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

The Malheur Indian Reservation was established in 1872. While there were ranchers settling in Blitzen Valley (to the south) are early as 1872, the first recorded white-person-built structure in Harney Basin was in 1874 by Peter Stenger, who built a "small sod house" right where the current terrorist-occupied Federal building stands today.

So the Paiute Indians -- of which three tribes had, in fact, moved into the reservation by 1875 -- were the acknowledged holders of that land two years before any white man used it. Of course, the conflicts over the land began immediately. In the words of a Federal agent sent to assess the situation, "[...] local stockmen had begun encroaching upon reservation lands. Some were so bold, [Agent W.V.] Rinehart wrote his 1878 report, “that they have even taken up their residence within the limits of the reservation, and make no secret of their intention to occupy and use the land.”

So, yeah -- white ranchers have been huge dicks about this particular location literally since the moment they got there. (If they did any state-of-the-art irrigating as is claimed, it didn't last -- Harney Basin is actually known for its dryland ranching.)

Also in 1878: The Bannock War erupted. (If you're interested in the complex causes of the war, you can read about them here.) This war resulted in the Paiute fighting and losing to the U.S. army, who shipped them off to the Yakima Indian Reservation along with the Bannock tribe. In 1879, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs terminated the reservation, due to the war, pressure from the ranchers, and the discovery of gold in the mountains surrounding Harney Basin.

The Reservation (mentioned in the right-wing story) that was established in 1908 was never an Indian reservation. It was the Lake Malheur Reservation (note the lack of 'Indian' in the name), and it was created in conjunction with the Audubon Society in order to preserve the white heron population.

The infrastructure in the area also wasn't particularly rancher-built; rather, the Civilian Construction Corps was brought in by the Federal government in 1933 -- they created most of the roads and other infrastructure in and around the Harney Basin and Blizten Valley.

Legal aside: in1935, the Department of the Interior noted that overgrazing by ranchers in many parts of the Western US was causing "damage to soil, plants, streams, and springs." Congress responded by passing the Taylor Grazing Act, which regulates the ways in which a cattle rancher can use certain tracts of land and requires the payment of fees for grazing on those managed lands. Without the Grazing Act, the ranchers absolutely would have rendered many parts of Wyoming, Idaho, and Oregon barren, as they attempted to support ever-larger herds in the name of profit. (For a brief look at other laws and regulations affecting grazing, the link in quotes above is an excellent resource.)

Back to the right-wing narrative:

(a) In 1964 the Hammonds’ purchased their ranch in the Harney Basin. The purchase included approximately 6000 acres of private property, 4 grazing rights on public land, a small ranch house and 3 water rights. The ranch is around 53 miles South of Burns, Oregon.
(a1) By the 1970’s nearly all the ranches adjacent to the Blitzen Valley were purchased by the US Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) and added to the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. The refuge covers over 187,000 acres, stretches over 45 miles long and 37 miles wide. The expansion of the refuge grew and surrounds to the Hammond’s ranch. Approached many times by the FWS, the Hammonds refused to sell. Other ranchers also choose not to sell.

All of this is correct.

(a2) During the 1970’s the Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS), in conjunction with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), took a different approach to get the ranchers to sell. Ranchers were told: “grazing was detrimental to wildlife and must be reduced”; 32 out of 53 permits were revoked and many ranchers were forced to leave. Grazing fees were raised significantly for those who were allowed to remain. Refuge personnel took over the irrigation system claiming it as their own.

Grazing being detrimental to wildlife wasn't some wild claim by the FWS -- this report says it all. "In the Harney Basin, groundwater quality deteriorates near Malheur Lake: near the lake, the water is so mineralized from boron, sodium, and other dissolved solids that it is unsuitable for use in domestic, irrigation, or stock watering purposes." (Emphasis mine.)

Those ranchers weren't being kicked out because the Federal government was randomly greedy for more land -- they were kicked out because they were destroying what was there by overgrazing. (If you're not aware, grazing kills plans whose roots would otherwise bind the soil, which means less minerals dissolved in the water -- thus, high mineral content is a near-certain sign of overgrazing.)

(a3) By 1980 a conflict was well on its way over water allocations on the adjacent privately owned Silvies Plain. The FWS wanted to acquire the ranch lands on the Silvies Plain to add to their already vast holdings. Refuge personnel intentionally diverted the water bypassing the vast meadow lands, directing the water into the rising Malheur Lakes. Within a few short years the surface area of the lakes doubled. Thirty-one ranches on the Silvies plains were flooded. Homes, corrals, barns and graze-land were washed a way and destroyed. The ranchers who once fought to keep the FWS from taking their land, now broke and destroyed, begged the FWS to acquire their useless ranches. In 1989 the waters began to recede; now the once thriving privately owned Silvies plains are a proud part of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge claimed by the FWS.

The lake size didn't double -- it tripled. But it didn't do so because of any action taken by the Fish and Wildlife Service. That kind of size change is actually perfectly normal for lakes in the Great Basin area of Oregon, because of differences in the snowpack between one year and the next. The diversion of the Silvies River wasn't into Malheur Lakes -- the FWS talked a lot about doing things like redirecting the Silvies River into the Malheur River, bypassing the lake, but never acted on it due to expense. The idea of redirecting the river "bypassing the meadow lands" into the lake is absurd, as you can see on the map: the Silvies River comes in from the north, and the meadowlands make up the entire north edge of the lake -- there literally is no way to bypass the meadowlands except by circling entirely around the lake and coming in from the south…which is nuts.


(a4) By the 1990’s the Hammonds were one of the very few ranchers who still owned private property adjacent to the refuge. Susie Hammond in an effort to make sense of what was going on began compiling facts about the refuge. In a hidden public record she found a study done by the FWS in 1975. The study showed the “no use” policies of the FWS on the refuge were causing the wildlife to leave the refuge and move to private property. The study showed the private property adjacent to the Malheur Wildlife Refuge produced four times more ducks and geese than the refuge. The study also showed the migrating birds were 13 times more likely to land on private property than on the refuge. When Susie brought this to the attention of the FWS and refuge personnel, her and her family became the subjects of a long train of abuses and corruptions.

First off, there is no such thing as a "hidden public record." That term literally has no meaning. The study Susie Hammond found is simply public record, and it began in 1975, but was published in 1983. (Only a few hours of dedicated research by yours truly went into finding that link!) It casts the problem of "no use" policies in an entirely different light: it shows that the birds in question, accustomed to using the Malheur Refuge as part of their migratory patterns, quite often landed at the refuge and then promptly moved onto the nearby ranchers' lands because the rancher's lands provided more food -- grain.

Yeah, the ranchers were a little upset to have their crops being eaten by the wildfowl. This wasn't the case of the Refuge looking bad because the private lands were more productive -- it was an issue of the private ranchers needing help protecting their crops!

easttexaslefty

(1,554 posts)
26. Yay!!!
Fri Jan 8, 2016, 09:21 PM
Jan 2016

Thank you. I'd rather understand their warped ass thinking and 1/2 truths.
Otherwise I can't wrap my mind around where they are coming from. Maybe I'm not that fucking smart but I need the help. Thanks. <3

easttexaslefty

(1,554 posts)
27. I knew about the effect of grazing
Fri Jan 8, 2016, 09:25 PM
Jan 2016

But learned so much more from your info.
Thank you thank you thank you

bhikkhu

(10,715 posts)
37. A couple of additional things
Sat Jan 9, 2016, 11:09 PM
Jan 2016

The Silvies Plain mentioned in the article is called most everywhere else the SIlvies Floodplain. It probably was a tragic loss for many of the ranchers, but bulding in a floodplain isn't a good idea anywhere. Building in a floodplain in a basin with no water outlet is a pretty predictable disaster - a few wet years was all that it took. The FWS can hardly be blamed.

The idea that the bird populations followed settlement is absurd. Malheur lake is in a basin, and has been a significant wetlands since the pluvial age, on the major western migratory route. Ranching and farming, in eastern oregon and everywhere else, has generally taken "reclaiming" (another word for draining) wetlands to be a fundamental goal. Draining wetlands is good for farming, as you control the water supply to gain a more predictable year-round source, but that's irrelevant to migrating birds. Wetlands are what they need, and in the Harney basin (as everywhere else), farming and ranching eliminates wetlands in favor of stable lakes, to the detriment of most wildlife.

Also its good to keep in mind the timescale. White settlement began in around 1879. By 1908 the bird population was so decimated that the area was made a national preserve as the only way to allow wildlife to recover. In the space of one generation the Harney basin was made an environmental wreck. Any basin must be managed carefully. Some grazing is beneficial, but 300,000 head of cattle in a sensitive enclosed space is the fast road to creating a poison desert.

I know a lot of ranchers, living near the area myself. Most of them are either well-educated or born and raised into a very hard profession, and most are very knowledgeable about the best environmental practices. It takes a lot of sweat and brains and flexibility to keep a ranch going profitably, and there's no guarantee from one year to the next. Again, most of them are quite intelligent and personable. The hard breaks they do get from the weather or the markets or whatever else are dealt with pragmatically in practice, but there is always the tendency toward the simple narrative of blaming the government. Its griping that leads to nothing for most, I usually take in the same sense as people used to blame the devil for anything bad that happened - means little, harms little, except where a few non-thinkers (who, by extension, aren't likely to be much at ranching) take it to the extreme.

JBigDog

(1 post)
39. links please
Tue Jan 26, 2016, 04:53 PM
Jan 2016

I live in Oregon and I just joined DU in response to finding as much info on debunking this Conservative Treehouse bunch of blogger propaganda. If you have the links I would greatly appreciate a PM with them. I cannot PM anyone since I do not have enough posts or reply yet. Thanks

 

Shandris

(3,447 posts)
12. Merry Christmas, everyone! A fresh, non-ad-revenue-giving archive.is link to the page.
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 05:04 PM
Jan 2016

Of course, I trust everyone is familiar with archive.is. If you're not, you should be.

https://archive.is/XdycD

I'm not interested enough to tear into this list to be honest. It's extensive. But there it is, for anyone afraid to blindclick. You can, of course, research to see archive.is is safe.

spanone

(135,822 posts)
14. here's the full story=these people are tresspassing on federal property and threatening with weapons
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 05:16 PM
Jan 2016

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
15. OK, I bit and read it
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 05:18 PM
Jan 2016

The BLM apparently jerked these people around. The original judge said the sentence was "cruel and unusual" to sentence somebody for range fire that apparently did little, if any harm. The 9th Circuit disagreed.

That all may, or may not be true. Probably some truth to it, and some lies.

But it has zero to do with Ammo Bundy and his group of Mormon asshats.

dorkulon

(5,116 posts)
18. Agreed.
Fri Jan 8, 2016, 06:43 PM
Jan 2016

The 1st judge screwed up, you could say, because he sentenced them under mandatory minimums, but in the end it looks enough like double jeopardy to look hinky.

MH1

(17,600 posts)
22. The basic story as you summarized it, is true
Fri Jan 8, 2016, 08:46 PM
Jan 2016

according to everything I've read. (I hadn't seen the part "did little if any harm". I think that there was an allegation of covering up poaching, and that's pretty serious. But either way, they got sentenced twice for the same crime, the second being to meet the mandatory minimum. I'm not a fan of that, but arson is a bit more serious than being caught with a joint, so my heart isn't bleeding too much for the Hammonds. There are far worse injustices happening in our courts than this case.)

And as regards the Bundys, it's irrelevant. (like you said.)

bhikkhu

(10,715 posts)
38. My sense is the Hammonds must have had a lousy lawyer
Sat Jan 9, 2016, 11:38 PM
Jan 2016

...and I don't think they were sentenced fairly. Perhaps there were mitigating circumstances that led to the harsh sentence, but I'd rather see them sentenced fairly for the long list of supposed crimes and "crimes of character", one might say, than sentenced unfairly on the two things they were charged with.

Why were they charged under title 18 section 844, which deals with the "Importation, manufacture, distribution and storage of explosive materials"? The testimony was that matches were used to create two fires, but why not charge on simple arson? The penalties would have been as bad probably, but it still seems like a stupid lawyer problem. The fire set to cover up the poaching should have bee prosecutable, but its hard to imagine jail-time for a back-fire set that was actually successful (apparently) in helping contain an existing fire. Had it gone wrong, that would be another story, but it seems to have been done competently. And why the years of delay from the first fire?

Agreement that this hasn't much to do with armed occupation of a bird sanctuary...anyone who actually ranches in the basin has more sense, and no time for that sort of nonsense.

 

Bigmack

(8,020 posts)
35. It's hard to know whether this has been posted....
Sat Jan 9, 2016, 10:12 PM
Jan 2016

Hard to wade thru the pissing contest in these posts.

The Hammonds are assholes:
"In the early 1990s, Hammond repeatedly transgressed federal environmental laws, trespassed on federal lands and hurled death threats at federal wildlife officials. Little action was taken against Hammond by a timid Clinton administration. Emboldened, Hammond and some of his fellow ranchers continued over the next two decades to flagrantly flout environmental laws and harass federal officials. These activities finally culminated in an act of poaching on Steens Mountain and two arson fires. Hammond and his son were convicted in federal court and sentenced to five years in prison. That conviction sparked the armed takeover of federal buildings now unfolding in Burns.....Hammond had repeatedly threatened refuge officials with violence over an eight year period. On one occasion Hammond told the manager of the federal refuge that “he was going to tear his head off and shit down his neck.”
According to the affidavit, Hammond threatened to kill refuge manager Forrest Cameron and assistant manager Dan Walsworth and claimed he was ready to die over a fence line that the refuge wanted to construct to keep his cows out of a marsh and wetland.....refuge manager Cameron's family began receiving more threats, including one call threatening to wrap the Cameron's 12-year-old boy in a shroud of barbed wire and stuff him down a well. Other callers warned Mrs. Cameron that if she couldn’t get along in the cow town, she ought to move out before something “bad” happened to her family. The families of three other refuge employees also received telephone threats.."

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/05/showdown-in-the-malheur-marshes-the-origins-of-the-armed-occupation-in-burns-oregon/

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