Sexual assaults on New Year's Eve in Germany

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

The scale of the attacks on women at the city's central train station has shocked Germany. About 1,000 drunk and aggressive young men were involved.

City police chief Wolfgang Albers called it "a completely new dimension of crime". The men were of Arab or North African appearance, he said.

Women were also targeted in Hamburg.

...



The people in Europe are going to revolt if their leaders don't get a handle on their immigration problem. Letting in so many young men - many with extreme sexist and misogynist views about women - nothing to do, no jobs....UGH These guys need classes in modern culture and the rule of law asap!

With an ocean separating the U.S., we're able to vet our refugees and prioritize families with children. Thankfully!

Also, http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/01/04/world/europe/ap-eu-germany-sex-assaults.html?_r=0

[pampango]

1. "But the police have also insisted that many of the men had been known to them for some time and

that they were not a group of newly-arrived refugees."

http://www.thelocal.de/20160104/refugees-blamed-for-mass-sexual-assault-in-cologne

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

3. Ummm

Unfortunately, if this is second generation immigrants it doesn't bode well for welcoming more in. Germany has to figure out how to integrate them into society.

[LanternWaste]

4. Maybe we need to figure out how to integrate males into society?

"if this is second generation immigrants it doesn't bode well for welcoming more in."

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc. A logical fallacy meaning "after this, therefor because of this..." it illustrates correlation, but avoids causation. We do not know the assaults were committed due to custom.

They were however, committed by men-- so maybe Germany needs to figure out how to integrate males into society-- as males overwhelmingly commit these assaults? (six of one, half a dozen of the other-- each a prime example of the noted fallacy)

[Bluenorthwest]

20. So you are into collective punishments. Germany, it's always had men. It's never had rape gangs

roving the city streets. This is about the safety of women, which as a man I was raised to see as a much higher priority than the protection of mobs of criminals, not matter who those criminals are.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

23. Really? So, they were committed based on skin color?

In three different cities?

/sarcasm

I follow the news in Europe through BBC and other news outlets. You may not be willing to draw a conclusion, but I certainly am.

As a feminist, I'm entitled to judge cultures that may affect negatively the lives of women.

Have a good day.

[smirkymonkey]

27. You have GOT to be kidding me.

I am so sick of the PC bullshit on this board sometimes. It's starting to make Discussionist look reasonable.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

34. Nice try

Your pseudo-intellectual bullshit is merely cover for your own agenda of simple deflection.

Let me repeat that for you.

Your pseudo-intellectual bullshit is merely cover for your own agenda of simple deflection.

[LittleBlue]

58. Yeah no

1/10

[jack_krass]

69. ?

What?

[nomorenomore08]

83. "Germany has to figure out how to integrate them into society."

I absolutely agree with this, but collective blame/punishment is only going to complicate the process. Whoever committed these New Year's assaults, arrest and prosecute them vigorously, but don't act as if all Muslims or refugees are somehow to blame - which we know the far right in Germany (and elsewhere) will be eager to do.

[smirkymonkey]

85. Unfortunately, I don't think they want to integrate into Western society.

They want us to be like them and they won't be happy until we are. It's not going to happen so there will always be a chasm. The fact is, there is an incompatibility that I am afraid will never be reconciled.

[nomorenomore08]

92. Who doesn't want to? *All* of them? If nothing else, that's a huge sweeping generalization.

Anyway, what can the Germans do? Round up and deport all Muslims/Middle Easterners, including those born in the country?

Otherwise, they're going to have to find some way to co-exist. And you're right, Western societies are not going to change, so these newcomers and their descendants will just have to lump it.

[kiva]

32. Considering that the police chief in Cologne

originally described the New Years eve celebration as "peaceful" I don't have a lot of faith in their later disclaimers.

[Number23]

70. Thanks for adding that bit of info/context

[Yo_Mama]

2. According to FAZ, there were also attacks in Stuttgart and Hamburg.

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faz.net%2Faktuell%2Fpolitik%2Finland%2Fkoeln-hamburg-stuttgart-was-wir-bisher-wissen-13998010.html&edit-text=

The authorities seem completely steamed.

[Cali_Democrat]

6. Why would you think it's not getting alot of attention?

It's one of the top stories on the Google news front page.

[Cali_Democrat]

8. When you said "here", I thought you were referring to the United States.

The first time I read the story was actually on DU.

Why do you think it isn't getting the attention you think it deserves on DU?

[Ex Lurker]

10. Some DUers are reluctant to criticize certain categories

of people. The preferred tactic is to ignore. If it can't be ignored, they try to deflect. eg, change the subject from radical Islam to religion in general. Or unassimilated immigrants to men in general, as has been done upthread.

[lovemydog]

11. Well, it's a terrible thing.

I think sometimes some threads drop because it's difficult to say something about some things that are awful, apart from 'Whoah, that's terrible.'

[RandiFan1290]

12. These trolls don't give a damn about the victims

They just want to see more Muslim bashing.

[oberliner]

14. Sexual assault is a serious issue

The fact that it is a growing rather than diminishing problem is unacceptable.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

22. Or perhaps some of us are sick of sexist, misogynist

cultures and don't want to bring that shit here.

And, by the way, I'm not really worried about here because we will be vetting and bringing in mostly family units spread across a very large country - while hoards of young men have entered Europe without family. They are bored, unemployed, and expecting a better life, which they will soon realize is not available to them without learning the German language and integrating into the German society. And many of them aren't even from Syria. Some don't even have passports, at all, and are simply taggers on looking for a better life. I don't blame them for that, but I still don't have to like their misogynist, backwards culture that they are bringing with them.

[underahedgerow]

49. Well said!

(when I say things like that, I get alerted on! Just sayin'.)

But very, very well said.

[Ex Lurker]

54. Also interesting that the mayor of Cologne slut shaming the victims gets a pass on DU

because those women walking around in public unescorted with their heads uncovered are to blame for offending the thirteenth century sensibilities of the newcomers, dontcha know.

If it had been a GOPer or a fundy preacher saying something like that, DU would melt so hard there would be nothing left but a smoking crater in the internet. But, since we must be culturally sensitive above all, crickets.

[leftynyc]

56. Oh - she's not getting a pass

that's bullshit. I saw waaaay more people blasting her blaming the victims than not.

[Lizzie Poppet]

60. I'd argue that idiot had been vilified here more than supported.

But any support at all for that victim-blaming bullshit is disappointing...

[smirkymonkey]

74. +1000

[The2ndWheel]

16. But some of those large threads have a lot of simple responses

like "wow", or "that's horrible", or "+1", etc.

Like everything, it's subjective. If white Christian males did this, especially in America, you'd probably see multiple threads that are hundreds of posts long. Hell, the site might shut down. Some substantive discussion, some +1's and racist, bigot, one word posts, etc, etc. It's in Europe though, it's not white males, but it is still part of the global male patriarchy, but not that white leadership part that really gets people going. Then you add the immigrant/refugee part to it, and you're not supposed to not welcome people, and the brown skin, and that's a huge part of the fight for "we, the people" against the oligarchy, but then everything gets confused. When narratives slam into each other like that, like you say, it's difficult to say something.

It's not white male privilege, it is male privilege though, but, it's immigrant/foreign male privilege. That's the tricky part. Now you're talking clash of cultures, and that means judgment. Judging others is wrong, especially if they're a minority. Nobody really wants to be on the white side, because of white privilege. Who does one attack in this instance? Males, certainly. White males, not this time. Religion, obviously, but again, the Muslim/Christian thing is tricky. Certainly inside the US. Minority vs. majority, power imbalance, that sort of thing. Unless you can blame white males for the state of the Middle East, which you sort of can, even outside of the US, but not really as an excuse for whatever happened on new year's eve in Germany.

[smirkymonkey]

30. Exactly! Some people refuse to acknowledge that certain cultures have

an extreme problem with misogyny and homophobia.

[oberliner]

13. Two of the top LBN threads are about this topic with many responses

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1304394

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1303819

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

35. I think there have been a couple of threads

But it does seem when some of the facts beyond it being "men" in the headline trickle out, it becomes "problematic" to discuss.

[Puzzledtraveller]

52. I have a theory that may explain some of that.

Many people have become hyper-partisan and as such attach a political value to every event that can be perceived of either legitimizing the opposition and or together de-legitimize their own side. I have noticed this on the right and left.

[davidn3600]

17. Islam has a free pass among progressives

I don't know why, but some reason there is reluctance to criticize ANYTHING dealing with the migrants and especially anything dealing with the Islamic religion. It's got a free pass among progressives.

It's now apparently racist to demand that these migrants abide by the laws of Germany, and instead we should be demanding Germans change their lifestyles to accept the migrants.

It's insane.

Ignoring this will not make the problem go away. Progressives in Europe will be eventually stuck with right wing governments if they do not get a handle on this immigrant situation.

[leftynyc]

19. I don't understand why more

on the left don't realize that. With rampant crime and rape at much higher levels than in the past, people ALWAYS turn right when they are afraid. These head-in-the-sand types are everything that is wrong with the left. They think ignoring the problem or whining about Islamophobes is an argument. I stopped giving a shit about that long ago.

[GummyBearz]

21. KnR to the thread and this post

[Democat]

24. Prepare to be called a racist

DU is part of the problem.

[leftynyc]

25. Like I said

I stopped giving a shit about being called names long ago. And I ALWAYS consider the source.

[Lizzie Poppet]

40. Yep.

If someone calls me a "racist" or "Islamophobe" simply for pointing out just who seems to have committed these crimes against women and making the obvious link to a belief system rife with systemic, institutionalized misogyny, I'll simply dismiss them as fuckwits with the critical thinking skills of a cabbage. Their opinion is of zero value.

[leftynyc]

51. LOL

Well put. I like you.

[smirkymonkey]

75. Hear, hear!

[katsy]

81. 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

I'm a woman and an atheist and have zero tolerance for Islamic sensibilities. Nada. None for rapists either.

[lovemydog]

59. To some extent I agree with you,

but I'm not so sure that rampant crime and rape are at much higher levels than in the past. From what I've read they are at lower levels than say fifty years ago.

[jeff47]

26. No, the racism is assuming they're migrants when the authorities explicitly say they are not.

It's a really tough distinction to understand, so I completely understand your inability to grasp it.

[Lizzie Poppet]

39. To the best of my knowledge, the authorities explicitly stated they weren't refugees...

...but simply cautioned against assuming they were migrants. Not the same thing...

[Puzzledtraveller]

53. Some people

think that to share feelings that their opposition may also share means you agreeing in total with them. I attribute it to ego more than anything else. Pride.

[philosslayer]

88. You are blaming a religion

When in fact you should be blaming individuals who are responsible for committing crimes. Islam is a peaceful religion, and the perpetrators of these crimes may be Islamic, but they are NOT acting as true Muslims or following the teachings of the prophet.

[davidn3600]

89. Being agnostic, I am not a fan of any organized religion

Organized religion tends to treat homosexuals and women very poorly. And that's not radicalism, it's mainstream teaching of Islam and Christianity. Look at the way Christians, in our own country, treat gays. In Saudi Arabia and Iran, Muslims execute gays and stone women to death who commit adultery. And it's not just ISIS doing this...these are state-sanctioned executions! And we turn our cheeks and tell everyone, "Nothing to see here! Islam is a peaceful religion!"

I have a right to criticize it. And it's not racism to criticize it. I have studied history and noticed that organized religion has started countless wars and been responsible for countless atrocities.

[leftynyc]

18. There's a post in LBN

with over 100 comments. Perhaps you missed it although it's been on the top of the page for at least 24 hours.

[jeff47]

29. In my particular case, I'm a bit leery of a story

tailor-made to enflame the nationalists who are horrified by all of "those people" being let into their country.

We already know some of the initial reporting is false - initial claims were these were new migrants, and that isn't true.

[kiva]

33. I'm sure all of those women who complained of assult are lying,

right-wing bigots, right?

[jeff47]

42. Not what I said, but thanks for the hyperbole.

It demonstrates just how valuable this story is to the "build a wall" crowd.

[kiva]

57. The police chief of Cologne was dishonest about what happened

in the day or two that followed, so I'm not really believing the current "Oh no, these aren't the new migrants" story that they are spinning.

I'm not sure how to interpret your post other than implying that the women are lying about who assaulted them.

[jeff47]

63. Keep the Mexicans....er....Syrians out!!!!

I'm not sure how to interpret your post other than implying that the women are lying about who assaulted them.

Well, actually thinking about it would harm the story you want to tell, so of course you're going to try to claim it's calling the women liars. That way you can dismiss it and settle back into your comfortable clash of civilizations.

[kiva]

68. Sacrifice the women!!!! (borrowing some of your exclamation points)

Far better that a couple of women get raped and a few dozen more get groped that admit that a thousand or so men from a culture that denigrates women might actually behave like this.

Ignore the fact that the women who were assaulted actually identified the men as north African and/or Arabic.

Ignore the fact that the police chief lied for two days about what happened.

Ignore the fact that news media is now admitting they ignored the story.

Just complain that all of these women and the witnesses who were there are all racist, anti-immigrant bigots. Better to allow a few dozen women to be assaulted.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

37. I don't think they're migrants or refugees

I think it would be pretty fucking scary if a group of people who were just welcomed into a new country had already formed a flash mob to assault women.

No, I believe the men who did this are quite comfortable to have arranged this for themselves.

But that doesn't change the fact that there is a physical description of the men who were involved that makes some people here uneasy about commenting on it.

[jeff47]

45. And many physical descriptions turn out to be wrong.

A couple replies down is a cop leaking to the press that they were asylum seekers. Something we now know was a lie.

There's also some very nasty xenophobic politics involved in this story, which makes a whole lot of claims, such as those physical descriptions, questionable.

[davidn3600]

50. Yeah but...

Merkel's government is a interest in suppressing any belief that it may have been migrants.

Thing is...these rape attacks are very similar to what took place in Egypt a few years ago.

[smirkymonkey]

77. I sometimes wonder if the second generation muslims already in the country aren't doing

this to capitalize on the current migrant crisis. Perhaps they want to force a confrontation with the native population and see a window of opportunity here because they sense that tensions are high. Just a theory.

[B2G]

38. So do you think the 90+ women who reported

being sexually assaulted are lying?

My god.

[jeff47]

43. Nope. I think the claims that it's all refugees and they must all be sent back are wrong.

You know, the ones that have explicitly been labeled false by the authorities investigating these attacks.

But hey, the people in those evil cultures are totally going to attack women, so the Germans better build a wall, right?

[GummyBearz]

41. BBC story...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

A policeman who was outside Cologne station during the New Year's Eve trouble told the city's Express news website that he had detained eight suspects. "They were all asylum seekers, carrying copies of their residence certificates," he said.

[jeff47]

44. And multiple stories after that claimed this is was a lie.

But hey, anonymous policeman is far more trustworthy than the chief of police and the mayor, right?

[Ex Lurker]

55. After the mayor basically slut shamed the victims, I don't trust anything she says NT

[jeff47]

64. Great, now you just have to come up with a reason to ignore about 5 other officials. (nt)

[davidn3600]

46. But it is THEIR country

You act as if the migrants have a right to be there. They don't. I'm sorry but we do not live in a world without borders.

[jeff47]

47. And it very well may be THEIR rapists.

The initial, anonymous reporting that these were refugees or recent migrants has been explicitly contradicted by multiple government officials.

There's a lot of nativists who are very upset, and will happily spin a tale to advance their political goals.

As far as THEIR country, they have a population problem. They stopped having kids. Native birth rate is about 1.7-1.8 per woman, and you need 2.1 per woman for the population to not shrink.

That means they're going to have some big economic problems in a generation or two if they don't get more people from somewhere. Guess what? Refugees and migrants are people.

[davidn3600]

48. And be ready to accept Islam

You got a major culture clash coming.

That religion better find a way to advance socially or it will never be accepted in a modern, western country like Germany.

[jeff47]

62. :facepalm:

So you're operating under the illusion that there are no Muslims in Europe generally, or Germany specifically until recently?

[davidn3600]

66. I operate under the belief that organized religion tends to treat women poorly

And Islam is certainly no exception to that belief. They are generally worse than Christians.

So who should be forced to change? Should women give up their freedoms or should Muslims be forced to change the way their religion treats women? You seem to think you can have it both ways. You can't.

[nomorenomore08]

82. Problem is, you seem to assume all (or nearly all) Muslims are culturally backward, and perhaps

incapable of changing. I don't deny that there's a potentially serious problem with clashing religious and cultural attitudes, but generalizing a whole group of people like that is misguided at best.

[davidn3600]

87. We are not talking about liberal Muslims here looking for skilled opportunity

A number of these refugees and migrants are radical. They are screaming radical rhetoric. They are attacking women. They have no respect for people of other religions. Many of them hate the west to begin with. They have no intention to assimilate into western society. Is every single one of them violent and radical? Of course not. But enough of them are troublemakers who will cause very significant problems.

I mean, what are you going to do if this continues? What if these men continue and increase their attacks on German women? Should those women learn to cover up? Should those women only go out with a male escort? Where do you draw a line? Merkel is losing control of the migrant situation as well as popular opinion. She seems to have no plan to deal with these people. People are now becoming scared. And when people become scared.....bad things tend to happen politically.

This isn't about racism. It's about a completely different society, a completely different way of life, religion, and belief system. And you are forcing very large numbers of people who are not the same socially to suddenly come together and become a melting pot. Going by history....this is going to end very badly.

[nomorenomore08]

91. Any refugees who commit serious crimes should be imprisoned and then deported. Full stop.

But that doesn't mean all of them - including the majority who've done nothing wrong - should be expelled from the country. Which would be damn near impossible anyway, unless you're going to round up everybody who "looks Muslim."

[smirkymonkey]

86. Unfortunately, I don't think it's going to happen. Ever.

The modern Western world and the backward islamic society will never find a way to live with each other. The sooner we accept that reality the better.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

31. Is that a disingenuous question?

If not, the answer is obvious - it's a negative story about immigrants.

[nomorenomore08]

84. And there's no shortage of those out in the media, only a certain percentage of which are likely

to be justified. Which sucks, because it makes it difficult to parse out the genuine problems from the background noise of fearmongering and "Send 'em all back!"

[mwrguy]

28. This is a bloody shirt for Islamophobes

The right will milk this for all it is worth, even if it turns out to be totally exaggerated.

[oberliner]

65. What should the response from the left be?

Especially from those for whom preventing sexual assaults of women is a major issue.

[lovemydog]

71. That's an interesting question.

I think we all have our own opinions, and they don't always require a response. Maybe read more about it, learn more about it, listen to the voices coming from that area of the world.

[nomorenomore08]

79. I sympathize with the concern that Muslims/refugees as a group will be blamed for this.

But whoever is responsible, this is a terrible situation, and going out of one's way to downplay it, helps nothing.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

90. "even if it turns out to be totally exaggerated."

And what is it's not exaggerated or even worse? Are you going to turn a blind eye just because it's politically inconvenient?

[niyad]

36. glad to see that this is getting some attention

[lovemydog]

72. Here's a new BBC article on it:

Cologne sex attacks: Women describe 'terrible' assaults
7 January 2016

More than 100 women and girls have come forward with reports of sexual assault and robbery by gangs of men in the German city of Cologne on New Year's Eve. Victims have described chaos outside the city's main station, as the men carried out dozens of attacks with little apparent response from the authorities.

Correspondents say the identification of the attackers as North African or Arab in appearance has caused alarm in Germany because of the influx of more than a million migrants and refugees in the past year. Some of the women caught in the violence have begun speaking of their ordeal.

Michelle told the BBC News how she and her friends became surrounded by between 20 and 30 men, who were speaking a foreign language. "They grabbed our arms... pushed our clothes away, and tried to get between our legs or I don't know where. "They got everything we had in our pockets." She said German police needed to provide more protection for women and girls. "We are all really shocked that something like this could happen, especially at an event like New Year's Eve."

The search for answers 'I thought they could kill us, and nobody would notice'

more here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35250903

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

73. Thanks for posting.

You should post a new thread for the disbelievers.

[melman]

76. Won't do any good

They are disbelievers because they want to be disbelievers. No amount of proof will change their minds.

[smirkymonkey]

78. What cowards to go after defenseless women. Why don't they go after the

men, see how much they get away with then?

[nomorenomore08]

80. I agree, what a bunch of cowardly creeps. Whatever else they may be, that seems most important.