I'm a RKBA supporter and Democrat. Ask me anything about the recent Obama announcement.

[aikoaiko]

We don't have the specific executive orders/action documents yet, but we have this statement/release.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/01/05/fact-sheet-new-executive-actions-reduce-gun-violence-and-make-our


Here is the first item:

1 Keep guns out of the wrong hands through background checks.
a. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is making clear that it doesn’t matter where you conduct your business—from a store, at gun shows, or over the Internet: If you’re in the business of selling firearms, you must get a license and conduct background checks.
b. ATF is finalizing a rule to require background checks for people trying to buy some of the most dangerous weapons and other items through a trust, corporation, or other legal entity.
c. Attorney General Loretta E. Lynch has sent a letter to States highlighting the importance of receiving complete criminal history records and criminal dispositions, information on persons disqualified because of a mental illness, and qualifying crimes of domestic violence.
d. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) is overhauling the background check system to make it more effective and efficient. The envisioned improvements include processing background checks 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and improving notification of local authorities when certain prohibited persons unlawfully attempt to buy a gun. The FBI will hire more than 230 additional examiners and other staff to help process these background checks.

a. This idea that if you're in the business of selling firearms, you must get a license and conduct background checks is existing law. The law also says that private sellers can transfer their weapons in exchange for money without a license or background check (although state laws may require a background check). What we need is a rule that describes when private seller transfer becomes a business. Further down the release, the president punts:
"Quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators. There is no specific threshold number of firearms purchased or sold that triggers the licensure requirement. But it is important to note that even a few transactions, when combined with other evidence, can be sufficient to establish that a person is “engaged in the business.” For example, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors also were present."

b. Clarifying the background check requirements for trusts and corporations is a good thing, but I have never heard of a trust NFA weapon being used in any crime let alone mass murder. Zero. There was only one documented use of a legal NFA weapon being used in a crime back in the 1980s and I don't think it was a trust. Nevertheless, the rules should be clarified. Please note, that laws already punish unlawful possession of any firearm (trust or not) if you are a prohibited person. Its not like these people couldn't be convicted if caught.

c. This sounds like a nice letter. All states should know that its important to report data correctly.

d. Hiring more people to due background checks is important. More examiners will mean fewer bureaucratic mistakes like the one that happened with the Charleston church massacre. http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/07/10/421789047/fbi-says-background-check-error-let-charleston-shooting-suspect-buy-gun

2. Make our communities safer from gun violence.

The Attorney General convened a call with U.S. Attorneys around the country to direct federal prosecutors to continue to focus on smart and effective enforcement of our gun laws.
The President’s FY2017 budget will include funding for 200 new ATF agents and investigators to help enforce our gun laws.
ATF has established an Internet Investigation Center to track illegal online firearms trafficking and is dedicating $4 million and additional personnel to enhance the National Integrated Ballistics Information Network.
ATF is finalizing a rule to ensure that dealers who ship firearms notify law enforcement if their guns are lost or stolen in transit.
The Attorney General issued a memo encouraging every U.S. Attorney’s Office to renew domestic violence outreach efforts.

All of the issues in Item 2 look good to me. Having accurate and timely data in background check datasets is essential for good denials. Hiring new agents who can investigate and arrest people who knowingly attempt to purchase a gun when they are prohibited and other illegal transfers is something a lot of people have been asking for. Clarifying the reporting of stolen firearms when shipped from businesses is an excellent change.

3. Increase mental health treatment and reporting to the background check system.

a. The Administration is proposing a new $500 million investment to increase access to mental health care.
b. The Social Security Administration has indicated that it will begin the rulemaking process to include information in the background check system about beneficiaries who are prohibited from possessing a firearm for mental health reasons.
c. The Department of Health and Human Services is finalizing a rule to remove unnecessary legal barriers preventing States from reporting relevant information about people prohibited from possessing a gun for specific mental health reasons

a. More money for mental health treatment is good for everyone.

b. I think this issue involves Representative Payees. If a beneficiary is minor or mentally incompetent, a representative payee can be appointed. I believe this involves a hearing and due process. Its sounds reasonable, but I don't know of any cases where someone with a representative payee committed a gun crime. There aren't that many -- only 77,000.

c. This could be a tricky issue. Mental health advocates may have a problem with this. Mental health is health information and subject to certain protections. We need more info on this.

4. Shape the future of gun safety technology.

The President has directed the Departments of Defense, Justice, and Homeland Security to conduct or sponsor research into gun safety technology.
The President has also directed the departments to review the availability of smart gun technology on a regular basis, and to explore potential ways to further its use and development to more broadly improve gun safety.

I'm all for this. When military and civilian LE are satisfied with the technology for their use, it will become more accepted by non-military, non-LE civilians.

[Recursion]

1. Can he actually obligate the funding for this without Congress?

That's more a budget/procedural question than an RKBA one, but it seems like a crucial one...

[aikoaiko]

2. At one point, Obama referred to these as "recommendations"

I honestly don't know how much his executive action or recommendations can dictate the budget.

[Buzz Clik]

3. So when will the police be going door-to-door to take our guns?

[aikoaiko]

4. I have no answer for this question.

[sarisataka]

12. I think it is more important

To stop all of those Moroccans crossing the border

[Lee-Lee]

5. I agree with your assessments

One interesting thing is that with the NFA trust change they are also totally eliminating the CLEO sign off for NFA items.

The popularity of trusts came about primarily because so many Sheriff's refused to sign at all for political reasons creating de facto bans in thier county. Now the change is that the CLEO must be notified, but you will no longer require thier approval.

In reality that's almost a win for gun folks- it eliminates the ability of a local sheriff to block an NFA purchase, so the need to use a trust anyway is greatly diminished.

[aikoaiko]

7. I agree. If the CLEO requirement is changed to notification, that's a win.

[MineralMan]

6. With regard to the business of selling firearms,

If you're setting up a table to sell your "gun collection items" at a gun show or advertising gun sales on an internet site more than once, I'd say you were in the business of selling firearms.

There are alternatives to selling firearms yourself. You can consign them at a gun shop or with a registered FFL holder. If you're selling them yourself, then you're in the business of selling guns, even if it's only an occasional business.

In states where private gun sales must be completed through an FFL dealer, I wouldn't require any more, but where that is not required, if you're selling guns, you're in business, as far as I'm concerned.

I'd like to see this become part of the new rules.

[aikoaiko]

9. A clarification on the definition of business would be helpful, but the President declined

to do that apparently.

I expected it.

[Recursion]

11. The catch is that my grandfather gave me a shotgun when I turned 9

And that kind of transfer is what really hits a brick wall when it comes to legal restrictions. It's neither interstate nor for-profit, and widely considered a legitimate thing to happen, but a ton of abuses can hide under that rubric.

That said, you have an interesting idea:

In states where private gun sales must be completed through an FFL dealer, I wouldn't require any more, but where that is not required, if you're selling guns, you're in business, as far as I'm concerned.

I like that. If money changes hands, it's a "deal" and so should go through a "dealer".

For that matter, I'd like to really broaden the FFL to include owners of any semi-automatics. You can even establish a "mini-FFL" which doesn't allow resale. That would definitely take Congress, though.

[MineralMan]

15. I don't really see family transfers as sales.

They're pretty much unregulated, I think. Without gun registration, it's really not possible to know who actually owns the bulk of firearms in this country, particularly long guns.

I think that gun "collectors," who regularly buy and sell firearms, should be required to have an FFL. It's a business, really, and most collectors are constantly shifting guns between owners, and money is usually involved. I know this because I know some "collectors." They're mostly hoarders who commonly buy and sell to refine their "collection." A lot of firearms are transferred that way.

[Lee-Lee]

13. You couldn't do that without a change to the law

As it sits now a person can dispose of thier personal collection as long as they don't sell across state lines and it's not a business.

Unless you change the law you can't do much more than they are now- which has always been the law they just haven't cared enough to enforce it.

[MineralMan]

17. Lots of folks with "collections" they're buying and selling for

as a small business. The problem is in defining what a "collection" and "collector" are.

I know some firearms dealers who are merely buying and selling for their "collection." That needs to be changed. They're not really "collectors." They're dealers working a loophole.

[Lee-Lee]

20. If you read the BATFE guidelines released this week

They lay it out pretty well.

If it's a collection you have had and you sell, it's not a business.

If you buy guns to resell, and take the proceeds and buy more guns, it's a business.

In reality those folks you mention have always been breaking the law, it's just that nobody cared enough to do anything.

[MineralMan]

22. Well, better enforcement wouldn't require a change in the laws.

I know that this buying and selling of private "collections" goes on all the time, outside of normal channels. I've seen it going on for years. Like "collectors" of all sorts of things, buying and selling is part of the process. That the law is not enforced is the issue. No change in laws would be involved in actually enforcing those "collector" dealers.

I'd like to see that enforcement ramped up. It's a real issue in some states, and is a loophole that is very widely abused. The extent of those "collector" sales is poorly known, officially, because it happens outside of firearms sales monitoring.

Most firearms owners know people who buy and sell as "collectors." It's a de facto black market for guns. Denying that isn't in line with actual reality.

[Lee-Lee]

25. I posted the newly published guidelines further down

But they don't matter if the BATFE doesn't care enough to enforce the law and the US Attorney doesn't care enough to prosecute.

That's always been the biggest hurdle. The BATFE seems to want to focus on big fish and things really outside their purpose, like taking down biker gangs. I think they really want to be more like the FBI and DEA and stray from their core mission.

And the US Attorneys are all political animals, trying for the big cases that make headlines. Prosecuting a small guy who sold a few guns or a straw buyer doesn't help their career or get them headlines so they don't put any emphasis on it.

[MineralMan]

28. The BATFE is under the Executive Branch.

That means that President Obama can direct them to do more enforcement if he chooses to do so. That is one of the perks of being President. It's one way he can affect how enforcement of current firearms laws is handled.

I think this is his goal with all of this. He does have considerable capabilities with regard to Executive Branch organizations. I know for a fact that there are many so-called "collectors" who are actually in the firearms business. They carefully skirt the actual laws and depend on lax enforcement to carry on their business.

It's a major problem, in my opinion. If Obama wishes, he can insist that the agency engage in more enforcement of that group of de facto firearms dealers. Will he do that? I'm guessing that's his plan. I hope he has success with it.

Perhaps some of those "collectors" will see the writing on the wall and get their FFL, if they can do so.

[Lee-Lee]

36. Usually the first step of the BATFE if they think someone is crossing the line

Is to knock on the door, say they have seen they sell a lot of guns, and then explain the law and hand them an FFL application packet.

They want people in compliance.

However at the same time in the 90's Congress passed a law stating that a person with an FFL must comply with all laws for a full fledged business- so a home based FFL would not be approved if a person lived in a place where the zoning prohibited a business even of most home based business is allowed. Enforcement of that provision had left a lot of people who like to buy and sell and who would comply with FFL regulations in a catch-22 where they are required to get an FFL but denied one because of an absurd interpretation of zoning laws by the BATFE.

So a scenario end sup like this- Joe is retired and buys and sells a few guns a month at the flea market along with all kinds of other stuff. He knows he needs an FFL, so he applies. The home he lives in is zoned residential and since that is the address of record for his license he gets denied his FFL- even though he had no intent of selling guns from that location. So he just keeps skirting the edge of the law when he would like to be in compliance big is denied the chance.

The start of that zoning law enforcement really drove down the number of FFl's in the 90's and I am sure a lot of them still sold guns now and then- there were consequences of that change to the law that the backers of it probably didn't grasp- and as a result the very bill that put background checks into play pushed more outside the checks.

[Eleanors38]

16. Until there is more specificity, this part of Obama's proposal will be challenged...

I believe states define "dealers" for many products and services, and the main criterion is Quantity of goods delivered. Assuming this proposal stands constitutional muster under the ICC, it will have to be tied down a lot more to escape a court challenge over vagueness.

I get the impression that there are already a lot of "shadow" car dealers in TX (where the state has an economic incentive -- taxes -- AND is supported by powerful dealer lobbies). The feds would have great need for state cooperation to even make this work. I do support some form of UBC, however, and the modernization of the NICS system is LONG overdue.

[MineralMan]

18. In some states, like California, gun sales between private

parties must be completed through an FFL holder. That isn't done every time, of course, but that's the law in California.

[Eleanors38]

31. Does current law (fed or CA) not require that the product (gun) be sold by a dealer?

If that is the case, then opening NICS to the public may be easier than I first thought, as it appears the feds do not speak to the status of the seller, only that FFLs required to use it unless a state requires individuals to. Said another way, I cannot use NICS in TX unless the stste requires me to.

[MineralMan]

32. It has been years since I bought or sold a gun in California.

So, I don't have any experience with a gun store acting as a third party in a firearms sale between two private parties. I don't know if they have to run the background check in those cases.

I do know that they do not take ownership of the firearm, however, in the transaction. I did, years ago, trade a Mossberg 500 20 ga. shotgun for a semi-auto .22 cal. rifle once at a gunshop. That transaction, though, amounted to a sale of the .22 rifle to me, with the shotgun as the price.

I have never done a private party sale of any firearm. A couple of family transfers, but those are exempt, or were, in California.

In Minnesota, I have purchased one shotgun, and that involved a background check at the dealer, but no waiting period.

My handguns are all of long ownership by me, dating back before any of those laws were in effect.

[Eleanors38]

34. Lee-Lee's #21 link may have uncovered a good "loop hole" in BATF regs...

On the last page of the agency's Q&A section the BATF seems to be saying an unlicensed individual can indeed use NICS (for the customary charge) to run a b.g. check. Mention was made of BATF issueing (2013) a guideline to FFLs on how to do this. Fairly recent and apparently legal use of NICS by John Q. Public.

IMO, this should be exploited!

[MineralMan]

35. I like California's strict rules on firearms transfers.

They're a bit awkward, but they appear to work and pass legal challenges.

Let's just implement similar laws in every state. I'm good with that.

[dumbcat]

41. "I'd say you were in the business of selling firearms." The law would disagree

If you're selling them yourself, then you're in the business of selling guns, even if it's only an occasional business.

Being "in the business" of selling firearms is defined in 18 USC Sec. 921. It does not include your thoughts.

U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 921
18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
...
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
...
(22) The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection:

I'm sure Obama has told AG Lynch to prosecute a few test cases. We'll see what the courts say.

[hunter]

8. Guns are a filthy habit, like smoking. Not cool.

[aikoaiko]

10. Maybe so, but I do clean my firearms after use.

[Recursion]

14. I've often said that's the cure for kids being interested in guns

Have them clean it, and see how much ****ing drudgery maintaining a gun actually is.

[aikoaiko]

23. I had my 9-yr old son pack 25 round magazines. He complained about his fingers being sore.

And I told him he can't come shooting until he is ready to pack mags. He's not ready.

[jonno99]

19. Sounds like an opinion. My opinion is that cross-point screws suck - only use Torx...nt

[hunter]

40. Cross point as in Phillips, or the sort used in cheap assemble-yourself furniture...

... for those who have only one screwdriver?

My opinion, based on too much first hand experience:

Piss on guns and gun fetishists.

[Lee-Lee]

21. Here is the actual BATFE guidance on who is or is not a dealer

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download


This is a new release, but it's all based on the long established statute and case law.

All that has changed is maybe they will actually enforce the law now.

[aikoaiko]

24. That's nice. Its a January 2016 document.

[Eleanors38]

26. Okay, what is wrong with opening NICS to the public?

Currently, the law only allows NICS be open to FFLs so that they meet their legal requirements. Does opening access to the System to individuals require legislation? Can individuals (non-dealers) be require to use it? Can NICs be opened to individuals on a voluntary basis? This could have positive effect in thwarting illegal sales even if not required as the mere request may cause a purchaser to back off.

Opening NICS seems like a simple and fast measure to take, requiring only more staffing and computers for a (hopefully) modernized system.

[aikoaiko]

29. Opening NICS would be an outstanding improvement.

[Eleanors38]

33. Lee-Lee's link in #21 (last page of ATF Q&A) says individuals Can access NICS...

by normally paying a small fee to an FFL. The BATF did issue a guideline to FFLs in 2013 which seems to indicate this is a rather recent issue. Perhaps there is a positive "loophole" in the NICS legislation which has been closed.

Why this possibility for increasingly voluntary compliance wasn't mentioned by POTUS is curious.

[Lee-Lee]

37. No, individuals can't access NICS

What it says is you can pay a dealer to do it for you.

That's what is down now if you order a gun online or it crosses state lines person to person.

For a dealer to do that they have to log it into their books as a transfer the same way as if the gun entered their inventory and then the buyer fills out the paperwork just as if they are buying the gun from the dealer.

Depending on your location dealers charge $25-75 for this.

This is 2015. There is no reason a NICS check isn't as open and easy as a smartphone app.

[Eleanors38]

38. I see the distinction, and I agree with the app analogy.

I also cannot understand why, when someone is convicted of a felony, domestic abuse, or adjudicated mentally incompetent, that fnding cannot be transmitted from the bench into every data bank which LEOs use, and be on the NICS in the time it takes a gnat to fart.

[Lee-Lee]

39. NICS is a woefully outdated 1980's style call center

Sad that it's the best we have managed to do.

[Blue_Tires]

27. 1. Which state do you live in?

2. What are some examples of the weapons you own or use regularly? (If you have an arsenal large enough to arm Ukraine, you don't have to list every single brand name and serial number).

3. Are any of your weapons for sale?

[aikoaiko]

30. Answers

1. Georgia

2. Regular use includes an AR15 set up for 22lr, Ruger 10/22, Buckmark pistol, CZ 75 (9mm), SA XDM (9mm) and a lightweight snubnose .357. I have several others stored away.

3. No. I did sell privately back when money was tight after the birth of my son. I probably sold about 12 firearms over a 3-year period.

eta: Are you looking for something?