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Have you had enough of this shit? (Original Post) Playinghardball Jan 2016 OP
Democracy would last, said de Tocqueville, until the people realize they can vote themselves money… Journeyman Jan 2016 #1
We have created the gate by which permanent inequality of conditions will enter, and it is through Ed Suspicious Jan 2016 #8
Thank you, that is a remarkable warning. appalachiablue Jan 2016 #48
yes, indeed. niyad Jan 2016 #2
Know Thy Enemy - Oligarchs, Corporations, Banks And Their Media Minions And MIC Henchmen cantbeserious Jan 2016 #3
More than I can stomach. nt 2naSalit Jan 2016 #4
Our current political system cannot and will not Facility Inspector Jan 2016 #5
Yes but the people get a return on that investment Uncle Joe Jan 2016 #6
40 Years Head Start Octafish Jan 2016 #13
Precisely, Octafish, they can't claim ignorance, if anything it becomes premeditated murder. Uncle Joe Jan 2016 #21
HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!! WillyT Jan 2016 #7
Enough of Corporate Welfare libodem Jan 2016 #9
Yes. tecelote Jan 2016 #11
. libodem Jan 2016 #37
We need a revolution in Congress and the SCOTUS, Francis Booth Jan 2016 #10
A political revolution ? WHEN CRABS ROAR Jan 2016 #18
Yes. We need a complete ban on corporate donations to office seekers/holders. We also need Francis Booth Jan 2016 #45
Tall order to find ethical legislators. WHEN CRABS ROAR Jan 2016 #47
Sorry, the freak out of the day is... mountain grammy Jan 2016 #12
A resounding YES! Duval Jan 2016 #14
More than enough. I'm over my head with the garbage that is happening to most us. Paper Roses Jan 2016 #15
How are you going to put an end to it? n/t Hotler Jan 2016 #16
A political revolution ? WHEN CRABS ROAR Jan 2016 #19
I know who can fix it -- Donald Trump !!!!! yay King_Klonopin Jan 2016 #39
Consider also that they produce a dirty, unhealthy product that can be replaced Jack Rabbit Jan 2016 #17
plus their billions in tax refunds... lame54 Jan 2016 #20
Zero federal taxes paid and a tax refund.....sweeeet. SammyWinstonJack Jan 2016 #24
Actually, Exxon paid the largest amount of income tax to the government in 2014. cigsandcoffee Jan 2016 #25
question is what are you/we willing to do to change it? NoMoreRepugs Jan 2016 #22
Yes...I am sick of this shit. SoapBox Jan 2016 #23
The biggest problem is that the system does indeed work Scalded Nun Jan 2016 #26
welfare KINGS. pansypoo53219 Jan 2016 #27
Sure. You have the 600+ politicians who AREN'T owned by them it'll take to fix it? Shandris Jan 2016 #28
Yes, I have. Punkingal Jan 2016 #29
Way too many giveaways to the 1% lark Jan 2016 #30
Corrupt to core Magleetis Jan 2016 #31
"It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2016 #32
Yes!... N_E_1 for Tennis Jan 2016 #33
We wouldn't want to harm the job creators. They need that money! Enthusiast Jan 2016 #34
and Hillary dosen't see this as a problem that needs to get fixed. Ferd Berfel Jan 2016 #35
but they pay too much in taxes Angry Dragon Jan 2016 #36
Fuckin' a!!!! Initech Jan 2016 #38
Congress doesn't care. Major Hogwash Jan 2016 #40
Only if they aren't shareholders. If they are, they love it. raouldukelives Jan 2016 #41
Keep the sheeple hellraiser69 Jan 2016 #42
But, but, but, I'm skeered.... onecaliberal Jan 2016 #43
K and R bigwillq Jan 2016 #44
Said the alien who has the dead end job of anally probing us. Kaleva Jan 2016 #46

Journeyman

(15,031 posts)
1. Democracy would last, said de Tocqueville, until the people realize they can vote themselves money…
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 02:09 PM
Jan 2016

Too many interpret that to mean the poor are always looking for "free stuff," when the reality has proved it is the wealthy who have no compunctions about stealing from the poor (and from everyone else, as well).

Ed Suspicious

(8,879 posts)
8. We have created the gate by which permanent inequality of conditions will enter, and it is through
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 02:57 PM
Jan 2016

corporatocracy.

"I am of the opinion, on the whole, that the manufacturing aristocracy which is growing up under our eyes is one of the harshest that ever existed in the world; but at the same time it is one of the most confined and least dangerous. Nevertheless, the friends of democracy should keep their eyes anxiously fixed in this direction; for if ever a permanent inequality of conditions and aristocracy again penetrates into the world, it may be predicted that this is the gate by which they will enter."


~ Tocqueville

Uncle Joe

(58,349 posts)
6. Yes but the people get a return on that investment
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 02:51 PM
Jan 2016

by having our ecosystem destroyed...so there's that.

Thanks for the thread, Playinghardball.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
13. 40 Years Head Start
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 03:19 PM
Jan 2016
Exxon Knew about Climate Change almost 40 years ago

A new investigation shows the oil company understood the science before it became a public issue and spent millions to promote misinformation


By Shannon Hall
Scientific American on October 26, 2015

Exxon was aware of climate change, as early as 1977, 11 years before it became a public issue, according to a recent investigation from InsideClimate News. This knowledge did not prevent the company (now ExxonMobil and the world’s largest oil and gas company) from spending decades refusing to publicly acknowledge climate change and even promoting climate misinformation—an approach many have likened to the lies spread by the tobacco industry regarding the health risks of smoking. Both industries were conscious that their products wouldn’t stay profitable once the world understood the risks, so much so that they used the same consultants to develop strategies on how to communicate with the public.
Experts, however, aren’t terribly surprised. “It’s never been remotely plausible that they did not understand the science,” says Naomi Oreskes, a history of science professor at Harvard University. But as it turns out, Exxon didn’t just understand the science, the company actively engaged with it. In the 1970s and 1980s it employed top scientists to look into the issue and launched its own ambitious research program that empirically sampled carbon dioxide and built rigorous climate models. Exxon even spent more than $1 million on a tanker project that would tackle how much CO2 is absorbed by the oceans. It was one of the biggest scientific questions of the time, meaning that Exxon was truly conducting unprecedented research.
In their eight-month-long investigation, reporters at InsideClimate News interviewed former Exxon employees, scientists and federal officials and analyzed hundreds of pages of internal documents. They found that the company’s knowledge of climate change dates back to July 1977, when its senior scientist James Black delivered a sobering message on the topic. “In the first place, there is general scientific agreement that the most likely manner in which mankind is influencing the global climate is through carbon dioxide release from the burning of fossil fuels," Black told Exxon’s management committee. A year later he warned Exxon that doubling CO2 gases in the atmosphere would increase average global temperatures by two or three degrees—a number that is consistent with the scientific consensus today. He continued to warn that “present thinking holds that man has a time window of five to 10 years before the need for hard decisions regarding changes in energy strategies might become critical." In other words, Exxon needed to act.
But ExxonMobil disagrees that any of its early statements were so stark, let alone conclusive at all. “We didn’t reach those conclusions, nor did we try to bury it like they suggest,” ExxonMobil spokesperson Allan Jeffers tells Scientific American. “The thing that shocks me the most is that we’ve been saying this for years, that we have been involved in climate research. These guys go down and pull some documents that we made available publicly in the archives and portray them as some kind of bombshell whistle-blower exposé because of the loaded language and the selective use of materials.”

One thing is certain: in June 1988, when NASA scientist James Hansen told a congressional hearing that the planet was already warming, Exxon remained publicly convinced that the science was still controversial. Furthermore, experts agree that Exxon became a leader in campaigns of confusion. By 1989 the company had helped create the Global Climate Coalition (disbanded in 2002) to question the scientific basis for concern about climate change. It also helped to prevent the U.S. from signing the international treaty on climate known as the Kyoto Protocol in 1998 to control greenhouse gases. Exxon’s tactic not only worked on the U.S. but also stopped other countries, such as China and India, from signing the treaty. At that point, “a lot of things unraveled,” Oreskes says.

CONTINUED...

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/

PS: Meanwhile, the real Head Start got defunded by the likes of Ronald McReagan and Friends.

Uncle Joe

(58,349 posts)
21. Precisely, Octafish, they can't claim ignorance, if anything it becomes premeditated murder.
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 03:50 PM
Jan 2016

I never thought for a minute, that the fossil fuel industry couldn't or didn't know better, they have their own scientists and carbon dioxide was first considered to be a greenhouse gas in the 19th century.



The history of the scientific discovery of climate change began in the early 19th century when ice ages and other natural changes in paleoclimate were first suspected and the natural greenhouse effect first identified. In the late 19th century, scientists first argued that human emissions of greenhouse gases could change the climate. Many other theories of climate change were advanced, involving forces from volcanism to solar variation. In the 1960s, the warming effect of carbon dioxide gas became increasingly convincing, although some scientists also pointed out that human activities, in the form of atmospheric aerosols (e.g., "pollution&quot , could have cooling effects as well. During the 1970s, scientific opinion increasingly favored the warming viewpoint. By the 1990s, as a result of improving fidelity of computer models and observational work confirming the Milankovitch theory of the ice ages, a consensus position formed: greenhouse gases were deeply involved in most climate changes, and human emissions were bringing serious global warming.

Since the 1990s, scientific research on climate change has included multiple disciplines and has expanded, significantly increasing our understanding of causal relations, links with historic data and ability to model climate change numerically. The most recent work has been summarized in the Assessment Reports by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Climate change is a significant and lasting change in the statistical distribution of weather patterns over periods ranging from decades to millions of years. It may be a change in average weather conditions, or in the distribution of weather around the average conditions (i.e., more or fewer extreme weather events). Climate change is caused by factors that include oceanic processes (such as oceanic circulation), biotic processes, variations in solar radiation received by Earth, plate tectonics and volcanic eruptions, and human-induced alterations of the natural world; these latter effects are currently causing global warming, and "climate change" is often used to describe human-specific impacts.

(snip)


In 1896 Svante Arrhenius calculated the effect of a doubling atmospheric carbon dioxide to be an increase in surface temperatures of 5-6 degrees Celsius.

A Swedish scientist, Svante Arrhenius, used Langley's observations of increased infrared absorption where Moon rays pass through the atmosphere at a low angle, encountering more carbon dioxide (CO2), to estimate an atmospheric cooling effect from a future decrease of CO2. He realized that the cooler atmosphere would hold less water vapor (another greenhouse gas) and calculated the additional cooling effect. He also realized the cooling would increase snow and ice cover at high latitudes, making the planet reflect more sunlight and thus further cool down, as James Croll had hypothesized. Overall Arrhenius calculated that cutting CO2 in half would suffice to produce an ice age. He further calculated that a doubling of atmospheric CO2 would give a total warming of 5-6 degrees Celsius.

Further, Arrhenius colleague Professor Arvid Högbom, who was quoted in length in Arrhenius 1896 study On the Influence of Carbonic Acid in the Air upon the Temperature of the Earth[14] had been attempting to quantify natural sources of emissions of CO2 for purposes of understanding the global carbon cycle. Högbom found that estimated carbon production from industrial sources in the 1890s (mainly coal burning) was comparable with the natural sources.[15] Arrhenius saw that this human emission of carbon would eventually lead to warming. However, because of the relatively low rate of CO2 production in 1896, Arrhenius thought the warming would take thousands of years, and he expected it would be beneficial to humanity.[15][16]




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_climate_change_science

tecelote

(5,122 posts)
11. Yes.
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 03:04 PM
Jan 2016

Corporate takers are destroying our country.

Socialism is fine for them but they don't want us to get any of "their" profits. They'll do anything to keep from paying taxes.

Francis Booth

(162 posts)
10. We need a revolution in Congress and the SCOTUS,
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 03:00 PM
Jan 2016

as well as the presidency. The current system is so irreparably broken that no one branch can change things on its own. I'm not very hopeful.

Francis Booth

(162 posts)
45. Yes. We need a complete ban on corporate donations to office seekers/holders. We also need
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 12:49 PM
Jan 2016

to prohibit legislators leaving office only to then lobby for the industries they were formerly regulating. Our republic has become utterly corrupted by the massive inflow of cash into congress. They're not doing the peoples business anymore - just following orders. Witness congresses inability to move on gun control, even after the Sandy Hook massacre, when public support for new gun restrictions was in the 90% range.

Of course, this would require that Citizens United be overturned, and that enough ethical legislators would get on board.

See why I'm not hopeful?

Paper Roses

(7,473 posts)
15. More than enough. I'm over my head with the garbage that is happening to most us.
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 03:31 PM
Jan 2016

Sometimes I think these very old bones will be glad to pack it in. I worry all the time about the state of everything. My family, my country, my personal life. Old or young, most of us are not capable of absorbing the impact of the current state of affairs in our country. OK, if you are rich, maybe you can find a way to cope, fork out the cash for everything, that will make it better, I guess.

For the rest of us, it is a nightmare the likes of which we have not seen and about which we cannot cope.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
17. Consider also that they produce a dirty, unhealthy product that can be replaced
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 03:35 PM
Jan 2016

Consider also that they produce a dirty, unhealthy product that can be replaced in just a matter of years, and that for decades the officers of those corporations have resorted to lies, obfuscation and bribery to keep those corporations on life support.

That money would be put to better use building a renewable energy industry. If the oil and coal companies want to stay relevant, they can invest in solar and wind.

cigsandcoffee

(2,300 posts)
25. Actually, Exxon paid the largest amount of income tax to the government in 2014.
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 04:15 PM
Jan 2016

A lot more than Apple, even.

NoMoreRepugs

(9,412 posts)
22. question is what are you/we willing to do to change it?
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 04:01 PM
Jan 2016

BHO talked about changing a number of things - but when push came to shove the great majority of us that elected him stood back and watched rather than participate - anyone really think it's going to be any different should we be fortunate enough to elect Bernie or HRC?

Scalded Nun

(1,236 posts)
26. The biggest problem is that the system does indeed work
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 04:22 PM
Jan 2016

The secondary problem is that the electorate must remain ever vigilant. Unfortunately, the electorate (as a whole) chooses to remain lazy and basically uninformed. Corporations, the rich, MSM, etc. know this and work the system to their advantage. Until we (the people) do something about this it will only get worse. We still have the power of the vote, at least for the present. Make no mistake, if they can they will do all possible to minimize the impact of the electorate as well. They started that a while back.

And fixing this will not happen overnight. In the land of instant gratification and the expectation of instant results the challenge is maintaining a focus.


 

Shandris

(3,447 posts)
28. Sure. You have the 600+ politicians who AREN'T owned by them it'll take to fix it?
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 04:51 PM
Jan 2016

There's a thought for a 'world government' you never see floated. Instead of letting our richest executives pick our politicians for us (and then have them paraded in front of us by the media, as they remove whomever they'd like at will, at least until this year), or relying on 'world leaders' (is the world in a wonderful state now? Oh, it isn't? Then I guess we've seen the success rate of their 'leadership' so far, neh?), why not take a citizen's list from every nation on earth, divide them into equal numbers of regions, and send in delegates from the citizenry. Tens of thousands of them, to one place, to discuss a 'world government'.

I might be able to get behind the idea then.

Seemed a good enough place to toss out another one of my never-gunna-happen scenarios, at least. Of course we're sick of it, Playinghardball. It's just we have no ability to change it.

lark

(23,091 posts)
30. Way too many giveaways to the 1%
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 05:00 PM
Jan 2016

Way too many takeaways from the poor. Our government has it totally ass backward.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
32. "It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 05:03 PM
Jan 2016
"It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress." Mark Twain

It used to be called graft. Now it's just campaign contributions.

N_E_1 for Tennis

(9,719 posts)
33. Yes!...
Wed Jan 6, 2016, 05:34 PM
Jan 2016

Time to change the paradigm.

Bernie has awakened the beast in most of us. Time for us to mandate changes.
Even if Bernie Sanders does not win, his message cannot be stopped.
It is up to us.

Major Hogwash

(17,656 posts)
40. Congress doesn't care.
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 03:48 AM
Jan 2016

"Drill, baby, drill" became the mantra of the GOP over 8 years ago, and no one in Congress has the guts to fight against it!!

raouldukelives

(5,178 posts)
41. Only if they aren't shareholders. If they are, they love it.
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 10:54 AM
Jan 2016

Even more so, they are dependent on it. Socialism for themselves and the most backwards people and politicians they can help get elected.

Rugged capitalism for those left to survive in whatever wasteland they are bequeathing us all.

hellraiser69

(49 posts)
42. Keep the sheeple
Thu Jan 7, 2016, 11:11 AM
Jan 2016

stirred up about welfare, food stamps and immigrants and they don't notice the real problem.
Sad part is how well it works.

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