The left must admit the truth about the assaults on women in Cologne

[smirkymonkey]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/09/the-left-must-admit-the-truth-about-the-assaults-on-women-in-cologne

"Oh dear. It’s leftageddon. Two matters close to the progressive heart have been pitted against each other. In one corner, the right of women to stroll down the street, wearing what we like to wear without being mistaken for a walking, gilt-edged invitation to cop a free feel. In the other, the right of men, women and children to flee war, oppression and privation to seek refuge in other countries, without being seen as a swarm of subhuman parasites who will destroy any naive host who welcomes them. Tricky.
[snip]

I’m not counting the argument that says there is no hard evidence that these were refugees, because – let’s face it – it’s silly to pretend that the word “refugee” is synonymous with the word “saint” anyway. Only a simpleton – or, more commonly, person driven by instinct and emotion – thinks you can counter the uncompromising prejudice of “all immigrants are bad” with the uncompromising prejudice of “all immigrants are good”. The debate is worth having because the story has presented itself to us, whether the story is true or not. It will keep on presenting itself, in some form or another, until we can achieve some measure of agreement over what the story means.

The stereotypical right tends to blame the stereotypical left for all its woes in an uncomplicated way. The stereotypical left tends to respond with similar clod-hopping generalisation. But the hopeful columnist can still believe it possible to salvage some nuance; perhaps even, heaven forfend, some useful and solid points on which both left and right can agree.

First, these were opportunistic, organised crimes. The fact that they were carried out in the open, in front of many witnesses, suggests that the perpetrators were pretty sure they would get away with it. Sexual criminals who get away with things tend to become more ambitious. There’s no denying that this is a serious problem. Second, the perpetrators seem to have been absolutely correct in their certainty that they would get away with their crimes. The police were slow to respond to reports of sexual assaults, slow to admit to an emerging pattern of assault – or maybe even to piece one together at all – and say now that they are unlikely to be able to apprehend or convict any of these brazen serial sexual predators. So they have insight into European culture, even if it’s negative insight. [more]..."

I find this issue interesting in the way that it polarizes the left. I have been reading much about it on different news sites and on all but the most liberal boards everyone is blaming the left and liberalism. This is something that we need to get a grip on or it could really hurt us politically. It does not seem that the masses are all for unlimited immigration when it comes to muslims.

[smirkymonkey]

1. This is an interesting article.

It is worth a read.

[jwirr]

2. If I look at it as an indictment against an individual criminal

then there is no conflict. If they can find those who are guilty - which seems unlikely - then they must be tried just like any other rapist would be. And hopefully this would send a huge message to the refugee community that this will not be tolerated. Especially if the sentencing is harsh enough.

I remember our German community here in the USA having to adjust to language etc. when we lived here. There are some things that any immigrant will have to accept in their new countries. And they will have to obey the laws.

[smirkymonkey]

3. But it's not an individual criminal and it wasn't just one city.

This was an organized action in numerous European cities by muslim men - not all refugees, but all muslim. Because of the PC bullshit in Europe they think they can get away with it. This is something that can no longer be tolerated. They must be punished harshly and swiftly.

[jwirr]

7. I agree but I was speaking how I as a liberal can approach

the issue without a conflict.

[smirkymonkey]

8. Ok, understood.

Thank you.

[enough]

4. Too bad she starts out with the cutesy bit about leftageddon.

This is actually an interesting article about problems the entire global society has to deal with, the main one being vicious systemic misogyny.

[smirkymonkey]

14. Yes, I agree. But I think her point was that this is an issue that is dividing the

left and that is something that I find worth discussing. I see from other news sites and boards that the left is being blamed for this, but a lot of us are not in favor of unlimited immigration from these cultures. Particularly young men. It's an interesting dichotomy and seeing the left hash it out amongst their own is interesting to say the least. I don't think I have ever seen an issue that divides us like this one.

[Oneironaut]

147. It's b/c some on the left either ignore this, or downplay it.

They're like automated excuse parrots, trying to take the focus off Islam by blaming everything else. They're afraid of being seen as "intolerant."

[southtexasmama]

5. Issue I see here is that most of these are young men from masculinized societies

They come from countries that have repressive views of women, and where women are accompanied by guardians and cloistered indoors. They do not think that rape is wrong, and there is widespread sexual assaults and rapes in these countries.

It's rape culture there.

They are in immigrant enclaves in Europe, where they hang out with other young unemployed men. They are exposed to Western society for the first time, and many of them are illiterate in their own language, and not fluent in their host country's new language. It is a recipe for trouble with assimiliation and multiculturalism.

Also, due to their lack of education, they are not likely to drop their misogynist views of Western women and treatment of them.

It's too bad that Europe didn't limit their refugee visas only to the educated, and families. They now have masses of young, uneducated men who have nothing else to do other than attack, molest, and harass women.

[smirkymonkey]

10. I almost get the impression that they want to teach independent European women a lesson.

To intimidate them into hiding in their homes. It's so wrong. These countries have welcomed them with open arms and this is how they treat the host culture. It is an outrage to me.

[Igel]

32. I think the discussion goes a bit astray here and there.

Some are equating "organized" with "organized ahead of time."

Mobs can be self-organizing. Get a group of people together, somebody makes a suggestion, and it spreads if it's a culturally appropriate and situationally appropriate suggestion that receives support. Think of this organization as "emergent," not designed.


Some that insist on reducing everything to an individual level are both right in principle and wrong in principle. They refuse to be reductionist in other situations. Racism, for example, is executed at the individual level. It's not an institution that doesn't admit a person of color to a college, it's not an institution that assigns a failing grade or doesn't backfill for a gap in a student's background; these are things individuals do. All racism is individual. However, it's also institutional, with the institutional racism being a kind of epiphenomenon that is often emergent.

Some linguistic phenomenon have the same kinds of distictions--stage- versus individual-level vs kind-level predicates, for example, or deontic versus epistemic modals. People showing a lack of good will play the same kind of "I'm going to insist on reading this at an inappropriate level and insist that the other levels just can't exist." It's confusing rhetoric with reality, a common failing.


The way the crowds worked in Cairo and other Arab demonstrations during the Arab Spring are the same as in Europe. In a few cases, some of the men may have wanted to cow women. I'm going to suggest that some simply assume that any woman who isn't under the protection of a guardian, who is out and about in some situations, has run afoul of cultural norms. They are "inviting" it--now we may say otherwise, but our personal perspectives are pretty pointless when it comes to explaining their actions. We talk "empathy" then piously reject the idea.

We do the same with multiculturalism and diversity. We insist on respecting cultures. But then when there are actual cultural norms that differ--with "culture" being how individuals structure their behavior and their expections from other members of the community--we insist on a single, homogeneous culture. "Culture" has to be reduced to food, fashion, folklore, and festivals, which are pretty meaningless, to be honest. You can borrow a food, fashions, festivals, even much folklore and if you need to keep a few score words (or coin new ones). It's the behavioral norms that really matter, and the only time we insist on respecting multiculturalism is when we want to change elements in our own culture that we personally dislike and substitute others that we do like. It puts a burqa over our motivations and clothes them in something unassailable and impenetrable.

In some cases the cognitive dissonance is too much. So in this case we have a lot of evidence that this kind of behavior occurs in a variety of situations with the same consequences. But rather than say that there's a generalization to be had and a multicultural feature that might be to blame, allowing others to blame an entire culture and possibly an entire class of people, it's best to relegate this to some isolated, individual criminals and pathologize not the attitudes that give rise to this behavior or the response that externalizes the behavior and protects a community. That way we can continue to empathize with the "right" people, not have to agree in any way with those we oppose for domestic political reasons, and continue to protect our views without that ache in the back of our brains that say, "You're not being intellectually honest."

(BTW, I also think there's no such thing as generic "rape culture".)

[6chars]

124. This is worth investigating

I am guessing organized ahead of time. A very large number people from this one particular group chose to assemble at a single place at a given time, so even in Cologne, that suggests some prior coordination at the very least through facebook groups or something. They don't drop an apple from the square at midnight there. And then basically the same thing happened in a number of other cities - it's not like Muslim refugees in every city just have a natural tendency tend to go to the central train station and start assaulting women on New Year's Eve. If they were coordinated, then it is important to figure out what that was about and proceed accordingly. Hopefully the authorities are giving it due attention.

[Jim Beard]

132. India comes to mind

[Squinch]

144. That was my assumption. That many people working in concert against so many women,

they must have felt it was justified, that the scores of women they assaulted must have been asking for it, and that it was up to them to enforce standards.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

151. They didn't wait for invitations, but instead stormed across borders

by the tens of thousands. When they have literally forced their way into Europe, it is easy to see why some of these testosterone-driven, bigoted young men believe that they have the right to do this. They're basically acting like invaders who can do what they want.

Herd behavior psychology...doesn't bode well for the women in German.

[smirkymonkey]

18. Yes, good point!

Thank you for your input and welcome to DU!

[Jim Beard]

30. I knew this was coming

I watched the almost all young men refugees BREAKDOWN THE FENCE in Hungry and take off running. Totally disregarding the law. I knew then that those young men had no respect for the law. Should have never been let in.

I am not against all immigration, only massive unregulated immigration.

BTW I want to add that the US has only wanted immigration when we need workers otherwise, it has been severly restricted.

My local area had a bad experience during the massive Marial Boat lift when there was massive Cuban refugees during the Carter administration.

One of them made it to New Mexico and cold blooded murdered 2 women working at a convince by an air base. Law enforcement caught him and his reply was the bitches deserved to die.

The Mariel Boatlift

""This situation changed when it was discovered that the refugees included criminals and people from Cuba's mental hospitals. Castro arranged for the inclusion of criminals and people with mental illness among the political and economic refugees in order to rid Cuba of undesirables and to damage the image of Cuban exiles.[citation needed] United States media accounts such as a May 11, 1980 New York Times article, and the 1983 movie Scarface, suggested that the refugees consisted largely of undesirables.[citation needed] However, according to the Brookings Institution Study in 1980, the vast majority of Mariel refugees (technically Cuban-Haitian entrants-status pending) had blue collar skills which matched perfectly with the labor force in Miami at that time. While Castro did send criminals and mentally ill people, most Mariels were not.[citation needed]]

edit, spelling corrections

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

119. My uncle worked for US Customs during the boatlift

He worked at JFK, but since he was nominally Spanish speaking he was sent to Miami. The thing he loved about the movie Scarface was the sanitarium line. He heard that one a million times. He would then ask them to describe the symptoms of tuberculosis... which most of them could not and some didn't even know what tuberculosis was.

[geek tragedy]

66. They can limit it to families, women and children nt

[hifiguy]

68. And should. Immediately.

[LittleBlue]

6. The Guardian were the most vocal screaming "bigots!" at anyone who questioned immigration

Nope. We remember, Guardian. You printed any attack against those who, rightly, disagreed with allowing in more economic migrants to the UK.

Cameron happened to be right on this. Papers like the Guardian will never be honest and criticize themselves like they branded their political opponents, which was unrelenting and went on for over a year

[smirkymonkey]

9. They seem to be eating their words now.

I wonder how long it will take for the politicians to fess up to the fact that they made a horrible mistake.

[LittleBlue]

16. Merkel doesn't strike me as someone who would admit she made a mistake

She jumped in with both feet, very publicly. This is her debacle.

[mythology]

20. This isn't a debacle

The hyperbole isn't helpful. This was a small fraction of people doing this. Pretending that is was more than that is silly fear mongering not much different than the far right here having a heart attack over a Mexican immigrant shooting that woman in San Francisco a few months ago.

[smirkymonkey]

22. It is. Because it was organized - throughout Europe - targeted against women

and with the intent of intimidating women to stay in their homes. That is a problem. It doesn't matter if it was a small percentage, it's still terrorism against women. A small group can intimidate a large population into fear.

[rockfordfile]

64. Are you kidding? We've got right wingers who are on the attack against women in America

The problem is the republican party in America, and the right wing extremist in other countries.

Conservatism has always attacked women. Whether it be their health or assault. There's a list that could go on and on.

[smirkymonkey]

81. Oh for god's sake, it's not the same thing and you know it.

Don't be ridiculous.

[6chars]

125. Thank you for calling that out.

[Jim Beard]

131. smirkymonkey is always on top of it.

good comeback

[LittleBlue]

27. These aren't random attacks

They're groups of men targeting women to intimidate them into following Islamic cultural norms.

[truebrit71]

160. I think you're obviously the wrong site... My first clue?

"Cameron happened to be right"...

Dead give away....

[truebrit71]

163. How progressive of you to agree with David Cameron.

I should find a British forum? I've been here alot longer than you, pal, perhaps you'd feel more at home in a conservative one, yes?

Whether you GAF or not, support for a bigot is never cool.

[truebrit71]

165. I've lived in the States for more than thirty years...

So that's a BIG swing and a miss there pal....

[truebrit71]

167. MURRKA! Love it or leave it? Mighty progressive of you...

So is it just Islamic young males you hate, or is it all Muslims?

[Jim Beard]

169. I feel the same and have been voting Democratic since 1968 Hubert Humphery

longer than you """PAL"""

Apparently you haven't been watching videos of the young males over-running families, busting down border fences to get ahead of families.

Very lawless young thugs. I do not want anyone who disrespects the law like that in my country.

Have you people not heard of the Mariel boat lift? Mariel Boat Lift

learn from the past will you!

If the democratic party doesn't like it, I can always vote the other way. Never have but if I am not wanted then screw them.

[truebrit71]

170. I wasn't taking to you "pal"...

...Next...

"Love it or leave it"....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Good article. The perps are criminals and should be treated as such.

Their religion, country of origin, ethnicity, should be irrelevant.

[smirkymonkey]

12. Yes, but that is what bothers me and what she states in the article.

It is wrong to accuse based upon ethnicity, but it is also wrong to give people a pass based upon ethnicity simply because you don't want to stir up right wing sentiment. However, lets call it what it is and let the chips fall where they may. There is an ethnic component here. It is something that needs to be faced.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. No. Ethnicity, culture, wealth, poverty, should be irrelevant in law.

Are we trying a criminal act or a cultural act? Were the perps out to spread their religion or culture or cop a feel?

It's kind of like trying to blame "football" culture or "military" culture or "yuppie" culture for committing crimes.

If a Catholic priest or Protestant preacher molest children, do we prosecute or give them a pass because their Christian?

We're supposed to prosecute criminals based on criminal acts not ethnicity or "culture". We're not supposed to have a legal system based on bigotry of any kind.

[smirkymonkey]

19. But I think you have to admit that there is a cultural component to this.

This type of thing was non-existent previously. Personally, I think the muslim community is purposely stirring up shit in the wake of the refugee crisis. I don't think this is the refugees, but I do think that the elements of the mulsim community that do want to cause trouble are using this crisis as a means to stir up the right wing and provoke violence. Im not sure what their ultimate goal is, but I'm pretty sure that they want a conflagration and chances are they will get one.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. How many in "the Muslim community" are you talking about?

Is that like "the Black Community", "homosexual community", "Catholic community", "evangelical community", "conservative community"?

What do you see as a solution to the problem of the "Muslim Community"?

I think the solution to the problem is to have judges and juries who ignore culture, race, environment, and social status. i.e. If you commit assault, no matter what nationality, what culture, how poor or rich you are, you go to jail.

[smirkymonkey]

25. It is a fact that these acts were committed by young muslim men.

Do you accept that fact? They have certain ideas about women that are not acceptable in modern western society. Do you accept that fact? The two societies do not mix well. There is a problem.

Yes, you commit a crime you go to jail. But why are these crimes being committed in the first place. That is the issue.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. What's your solution to the "two societies don't mix well" problem?

Deportation? Making them wear identity emblems so "good" Americans can avoid them? Banning them from places where "good" Americans congregate?

Trump accuses Mexican immigrants of being rapists, leeches, bringing in disease and being "losers". Should we also blame their culture for crimes of the few?

How about Christians? They're "culture" (the Bible) is jampacked with verses allowing abuse of women. Does Christianity "mix well" with society and its laws?

[smirkymonkey]

37. Um, this is Germany.

Not sure what the answer is, but stemming the flow would be a pretty good first step.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. Stemming the flow of all immigrants?

How about Brazilians? Chinese? Ethiopians? Are their cultures unacceptable in Germany?

[smirkymonkey]

44. They aren't the ones causing the problems.

You don't really seem to care very much that German women are being abused, do you?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. And, the perpetraters are criminals and should be prosecuted.

Do you think that all or most Muslims engage in assaults on women? How about Germans? Are they prone to rape? Should we ban Germans from immigration because of their alleged proclivity for war?

Do you think we should deport all Germans because they might fancy Nazism?

I loathe stereotyping people.

[smirkymonkey]

53. There was not a systematic problem with this prior to islamic immigration.

Don't deflect from this particular matter.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. So, focus on "this particular matter".

A bunch of assholes assaulted some citizens. Arrest them, put them on trial, and, if guilty throw them in prison.

Whether there Muslims, Christians, Black, White, Estonian, or Bulgarian, or German, or American.

We're going through the same things here. The Mexicans (and points south) are equivalent to your immigrants from Eastern Europe. They're lazy, poor, uneducated, don't fit in. According to the likes of Donald Trump and Co. They handily throw in Muslims, Africans, West Indians, and anyone else who doesn't have white, preferably rich, credentials. And, they glibly announce that because some of the above commit crimes it has to be because of their "culture" or in the case of Blacks (whatever their origin) because of their inferior genes.

It's nothing new. "No Irish need apply", "The Yellow Peril", "The Eternal Jew", "America for Americans". And, I needn't remind you of Germany's history of stereotyping.

[frizzled]

58. Having imported a genuine rape culture, some people would do anything to change the subject.

It is just being reported that something similar happened in Zurich on the same night. That's in addition to the incidents in Hamburg and Stuttgart that were previously reported on.

The radio reports I've listened to have mentioned that one of the main reasons that people did not report anything was fear of being labelled a racist or "Islamophobic". And while I do not doubt that racism and Islamophobia are playing a part in how refugees and migrants are being received across Europe, it is sad that people are so afraid of how they might be perceived that they would ignore a crime than do the right thing and report it. It's a complicated fucking mess.

[KittyWampus]

31. And if you commit assault and choose your victim with their race, sexuality, gender or ethnicity

in mind, you have committed not just assault but a Hate Crime as well.

The reason I have responded to all three of your posts is because I hope you find my posts.

Your argument is extremely conservative.

[KittyWampus]

29. Wrong again, if someone is attacked partly because they are gay, black or women

Then it is a HATE CRIME as well as assault.

You are free to argue against hate crimes being recognized by the law, but you'd be on the conservative side of that argument.

[rockfordfile]

65. No there isn't and what you said is racism.

The far right wants to make it about ethnicity. The thugs who did this committed crimes. They will be arrested.

You just had a far right extremist protest today. We all know from history about the far right in Europe.

[smirkymonkey]

80. What? First of all, islam is not a race.

What are you on about?

[FrodosPet]

13. We WISH it were irrelevant, but it is not

Or you do not believe that understanding motive is a key to solving and preventing crime?

We need to find ways to:

1. Educate people arriving from ultra macho cultures, regardless of the prevailing religion of that culture / nation, that certain attitudes and behaviors are unacceptable in the pluralistic society that they enter.

2. We need to quit being so squeamish about calling out bad behavior and ideas from a progressive perspective.

3. We need to quit droning on about how we are supposedly just as bad in the western world. Yes, we have some major problems. But continuing to push false equivalence in spite of the contrary evidence is feeding Donald "The Rump" Trump. It is FEEDING, not fighting, Islamophobia.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. We need to educate them to obey the laws.

I'm all for criticism of religions and any other institution that behaves badly. We have lots of cultures that provide motivation for crimes against women. The military, sports, entertainment, churches, synagogues, mosques. American culture is overtly loaded with stereotypes of "real" men "getting" women that encourage horny young men to emulate the "winners".

We need to educate everybody that sexual assault is a crime and there is no plausible excuse for perpetrating it. "I was just brought up that way" is no more an excuse than saying "He's a nice white kid from a good family....not guilty".

[Jim Beard]

33. Better yet, send young back to fight for thei country, keep families.

[smirkymonkey]

39. Yes, exactly!

If it's so goddamned dangerous, then what the hell are they doing leaving women and children behind ?

[6chars]

126. It seems there should be some way to better vet them.

I wonder what El Al security would do if given the challenge. Maybe get some Arabic speaking and knowledgeable people to interview them in depth before they are allowed to come in, and everything better check out. Even check their web presence if necessary.

Is that discrimination to make all asylum from an area go through intense scrutiny just because some fraction of the people seeking asylum are actually terrorists (which is how I view the Cologne incident)? The good thing about giving them more scrutiny before admitting them is that those who are admitted would not be confused with the bad guys - and right now, the bad guys are doing a great job making people worried about any potential immigrant from that part of the world.

[KittyWampus]

28. Incorrect, there is a reason we have Hate Crime laws.

Their religion, nationality and ethnicity absolutely should be relevant if it was part of the crime.

And it appears very likely that this was a hate crime.

Against women.

Against unveiled, European women.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. It could be, and they could use it as a defense.

Hopefully, that defense would be disregarded.

I don't think it's "conservative" to think that justice should be impartial and avoid bias.

If a jock commits sexual assault is it a hate crime against women? How about a soldier? Should they be allowed to use their "culture" as a defense? How about blacks, Mexicans, Catholics? Would their ethnicity relevant to their assaults?

Are they hate crimes? Maybe. And, if so the individuals (not the culture) should be convicted and sentenced for committing a hate crime.

[Bluenorthwest]

63. A hate crime is a criminal charge, it is not a defense.

You seem profoundly confused. A hate crime, that is something a person gets charged with, not a defense that they use. Man....

[smirkymonkey]

83. Yes, Thank YOU!

That seems to be the case here, doesn't it?

[Nye Bevan]

15. The Cologne attacks will be a defining moment in the debate about asylum and immigration (nt)

[smirkymonkey]

24. Personally, I think they need to close the gates. Particularly when it comes to young

males. They can't afford this and it's only going to inflame the far right wing elements in each country.

[Jim Beard]

36. Wow, If I had just waited two post I would not have to done so much typing, I agree 100%

[branford]

102. And that's precisely why the attacks were not originally reported,

and many liberal European Governments routinely pressure media outlets from reporting any problems, criminal or otherwise, concerning migrants or apparently unassimilated recent immigrant populations. The permissive and often vague "hate crime" laws (that would be illegal in the USA) have been deployed against the people complaining about various governments' permissive migrant polices, rather that migrant criminal offenders and other troublemakers.

The Cologne attacks were not only horrendous by themselves, but also because it exposed and highlighted what amounts to government cover-ups. As has been repeatedly noted in recent history, "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up."

Sadly, I foresee the right-wing in Europe continue rapidly gaining in strength and influence, and it's really hard to pity or sympathize with many of the current liberal governments who have demonstrated a near criminal lack of basic foresight, practical competence, and respect for legitimate voter concerns.

[jonno99]

34. The question then is: what policy does the US adopt regarding immigrants from Muslim

countries? Is the unspoken suggestion from the OP and most of the posters on this thread that we go along with Trump's moratorium?

The FBI chief stated that they can't possibly vet all the individuals that are coming from places like Syria. What to do then? I don't know the answer...

[smirkymonkey]

42. Families only. The very young or the very old.

No young, single men. That is it. They are the ones who cause the problems.

[jonno99]

49. Of course the trick is: what makes a family? Are kids required? The couple from SB that

did the latest shooting - how would we have caught them? The civil liberties piece is a tricky tightrope to walk.

[smirkymonkey]

52. Yes, you have a point. I would say families with children.

They are much less likely to become radicalized.

[tblue37]

75. But such families might have sons. Even if their sons are not teens or young adults

right now, eventually they *will* be.

[smirkymonkey]

86. Oh well, I guess all young men should be beheaded once they reach

the age of 13.

[tblue37]

100. Please see my post #78 below for my suggestions about a feasible approach. nt

[Nye Bevan]

84. The San Bernadino Jihadists had a child (nt)

[smirkymonkey]

91. It's no guarantee of course, but letting in tons of single, childless men is a

recipe for disaster if you ask me.

[Nye Bevan]

92. I have to agree with you (nt)

[Jim Beard]

171. Yes, it is a toddler

one of the shooters was a very recent immigrant bride of a YOUNG man.

[Nevernose]

118. He was born and raised here; there was no "catching" him

There was no catching her, either, because most people (rightly) assume that mail order brides on a K1 visa usually aren't secret terrorists.

[tblue37]

74. What about families with teenaged or young adult sons? Should their

sons be left behind to survive on their own--or not survive, perhaps.

[6chars]

129. it might help if we understood what is happening on the ground there

for example, in your question, it would depend if the teenaged sons were people already involved in military activity. if most of them are, then that is a huge problem. if they are not, then it is of course not a foregone conclusion that upon reaching adolescence they change for the worse.

[6chars]

127. Depends what our purpose is

Do we want to benefit the US? Do we want to help people in humanitarian crisis? Do we just feel there is no moral justification for keeping anyone from being in the country they feel like being in? There are different ways to think about it and they would lead to different conclusions.

I kind of think it would be easier to fix Syria and defeat ISIS than for EU and US to admit 20 million people or whatever would want to come here.

[Jim Beard]

137. I agree

Historically it mostly has been for need, sometimes political as with Cuba and Vietnam.

Chinese were used to build the railroad and the deported. Jews were not let into the US.

As for need, there was the Bracero program during Eisenhower time. They were guest workers that sent most of their money back to Mexico. My father hired several Braceros to help with cotton harvest in the 1950's. They had to be paid and their medical needs were taken care of including hospitalization if necessary. It was primitive large dorm and cot sleeping but they had to be treated right or the local Bracero Labor association would make any farmer that tried to cheat pay the workers right.

A lot of people didn't like it so it was abolished in favor of bringing their families to live in the US

[KittyWampus]

35. Thanks for posting. I've pointed out that many liberals on DU have a idealistic view

of Europe.

One of the biggest blind spots amongst the American left comes to their ignorance of how organized the Far Right actually is in Europe and how quickly they are regaining footholds in governments.

The immigrant wave from Syria has the potential to set off some serious repercussions with the Far Right gaining even more seats/power/support.

[Odin2005]

40. Sad to see this site succumb to Fascist xenophobia.

These people are CRIMINALS, their religion and ethnic background are completely irrelevant. Blaming whole groups of people for the behavior of a few criminals is the sort of thing that leads ultimately to atrocities and Genocide. Muslims in Europe are to today what Jews were in 1932.

[smirkymonkey]

45. Oh, ffs, their culture is what is causing them to behave this way.

Don't be an idiot and pretend that it is their individual personalities that is driving this. This is pure and simple sexual terrorism based upon a cultural norm. Their religion and ethnic background is NOT irrelevant.

[cwydro]

47. I don't think it's irrelevant either.

Europe needs to get a handle on this, quickly.

[jonno99]

51. I don't think it is Europe alone; what is the US going to do? What will our policy be? nt

[tblue37]

78. One reason US Muslims are generally more moderate is that

the US encourages assimilation and provides a path to full citizenship--a path that requires immigrants to actually learn some things about our laws and our civic structure.

In many European countries immigrants are just brought in to work, but not assimilated or made full citizens. Nor do their children become birthright citizens as they do here.

One big reason for allowing so many refugees into Europe is that their aging population needs an influx of new workers. But keeping them isolated, ghettoized, unassimilated, with no hope for full participation in the future is a recipe for disaster.

My Sicilian grandparents and their extended families and neighbors moved en masse to Pennsylvania around the turn if the last century. I wish my grandparents had not carried assimilation *quite* so far, since they didn't allow their kids to learn Italian. But despite fully assimilating, their family and neighbors still held on to their culture in most essential ways. In fact, my dad's hometown is typically referred to by the nickname "Little Italy."

Muslim refugees in Europe could be acculturated in necessary ways and properly assimilated--if Europe decides to do so and if they muster the political will to do so.

[Jim Beard]

115. It was sad for me to learn when I went back to college in the 1980'

that the melting pot was no longer acceptable but rather like a salad bowl with lettuce ans a tomato here, a radish there, a cucumber and then a carrot. Get what I mean? The liberal elites at the universities had kicked out the "Melting Pot".

I like to call myself liberal because I am by no means a conservative. I like the social programs, Medicare, Medicaid, Student grants, you name it but there has to be some logic applied.

Like ... Immigration is good BUT.... it has to be orderly and at a pace that they can be assimilated or otherwise our culture will be the salad bowl.

I would also like for the immigrants who are successful to stay here and help our country, unlike that billionaire that was saved from repression in Brazil, made a billion here and then moved over seas. We need to send a swat team after him and brig his sorry ass back.

[katsy]

60. No. Not true. It's not xenophobia.

Western culture operates under a set of laws apart from religion. Criminals are handled accordingly under the law.

The Koran is both religious and civil law. that is where this culture clash occurs.

You can't draw pix of allah. Women are subservient, slaves in essence. Gays and apostates must be killed. There is nothing about western culture that does not offend Muslim sensibilities.

It may be a safe haven from their war torn countries but that is all. They operate under Islamic law not law by men.

The people responsible must be punished to the fullest extent of the law, yes, as all rapists of any nationality or religious beliefs. But that doesn't address the culture clash.

This was not an element at any other time of mass immigration from one western culture to another. Western laws are similar across the board. Not so with Islam. The problems cannot be dismissed as xenophobia. It's based on Islam vs civil law.

[Odin2005]

70. Now you are just regurgitating Islamophobic neocon propaganda.

I know some Muslims, They are not some monolithic hivemind that all follow a literalistic interpretation of the Koran, it would be like claiming all Christians are like the Dominionists.

[katsy]

82. pfffft

👎🏼

You don't know what you're talking about.

[philosslayer]

120. Nice comeback

you sure showed him....

[katsy]

136. Not worth it

Islam doesn't allow for recognizing secular law.

It's theocratic and intolerant.

We are discussing these events on totally different levels.

You think of it as crime committed by certain individuals. We agree there must be consequences and justice must be blind to the criminals beliefs, race, etc. all good to that point.

We differ in that I don't believe strict followers of Islam even BELIEVE that it's a crime to assault infidel women... kill gays or apostates. It's the law as handed down by allah and no other law is valid. That's a serious culture clash.

And in reply to my opinion, the op calls me a neocon. That's BS. You don't get to do that. I don't fear Islam. I find it odious and way past its expiration date. I'd be happy to see it in the trash in of history along with its christian counterparts.

[Odin2005]

138. Who decides who is a "strict follower of Islam"?

Especially because Islam has no centralized religious authority?

I have noticed a pattern that a lot of Militant Atheists, especially ones from an Evangelical Christian background, consider only radical fundamentalist nutcases as "real" followers of their religion. Those Atheists may have rejected belief in God, but are still unconscious fundamentalists when it comes to looking at religions.

[katsy]

141. Idk

That is a real dilemma to be solved by people much smarter than myself.

No fundamentalist Christianity at all in my history. Long line of atheists. Your assumption is wrong and irrelevant. I'm not running around groping and dehumanizing women because I have the one true god in my corner am I? But that's not the issue.just a lame way of deflecting blame from the criminals onto somebody else.

At issue is that secular law is in conflict with Islamic law. You can't address that with any credibility by attacking atheists, women, gays or apostates. If someone is any of those, they should probably not live in an Islamic society, agreed? Likewise, if a Muslim finds secular western societies offensive to allah maybe they shouldn't live in such societies.

IMO, no country is obliged to accommodate Islamic law if that accommodation removes protections for majority segments of secular society.

[smirkymonkey]

97. +1000

[Nye Bevan]

85. If gangs of American tourists were rampaging through European cities assaulting women,

I would expect to be scrutinized much more closely whenever I visit a European country. I would't like it, of course, but I would understand and accept it.

[Throd]

105. Sad to see this site succumb to infantile xenophelia.

[Jim Beard]

114. I really don't think so

We can discuss race and culture and assimilation at t5he same time. They are all intertwined. The rules are simple, when I am invited into a guests house, I obey the rules of that house. If they ask me to remove my shoes. I do as anyone unless they are too embarrased becaus their socks have hole.

[6chars]

128. Muslims in Europe today are not in a situation like Jews in 1932.

Glad we straightened that out.

[Oneironaut]

148. "Muslims in Europe are to today what Jews were in 1932."

I think you have that switched. Were the Jews blowing stuff up and raping women to try and force others into their Fascist ideology? If anything, many of the Syrian refugees hold views similar to the "pure Aryan race" views Nazis had. That's why they have no problem killing Europeans and raping women. They think all non-Muslims are dirt that must either be forcefully converted or die. That sort of ideology cannot be changed.

[Odin2005]

154. If you think all Muslims believe that you have been reading too much right-wing propaganda...

...and "New Atheist" bullshit.

[JI7]

150. Muslims in europe ARE NOT comparable to jews in 1932

[frizzled]

43. Still can't face the truth. Some cultures are just incompatible with others.

Islamic culture treats women like pieces of meat. It's been fashionable to ignore this, sing Kumbaya, and believe that long standing cultural mores of immigrants can be cast aside like cheap clothing because those who hold them are from poor or 'backward' nations. In fact, that's really just another kind of cultural supremacism, caused by not taking an utterly foreign culture seriously and on its own terms.

The irony is that the American and European Left made exactly the same fundamental, and I would even say racist, mistake as George W. Bush in invading Iraq: assuming that inside everyone from the Middle East is an enlightened European just waiting to get out, embrace our democratic, secular and enlightened values (or so we say) and settle down till the end of history.

Claiming Islamic culture will assimilate into the West, particularly Europe, is no more warranted than saying Europeans will assimilate into Islamic culture. I've lived in Muslim countries myself, and I can tell you that they are not about to up-end their societies to please us. The Western sense that everyone will eventually become like Scandinavia is myopic and an illusion.

(I'd like to thank the jury in advance for the expected post removal, this time.)

[Jim Beard]

46. Very, Very True. I have saved your post

[Duppers]

59. After having socialized many years ago with

a relatively liberal (Turkish) Muslim student community in the u.s. for a few years, I think what you stated is true.

[smirkymonkey]

99. Can you elaborate? We would be interested to hear more.

Thanks.

[Duppers]

122. I realize there are pockets of assimilated Muslims

in this country -- Dearborn, for instance, so I'd like to add that caveat.

I could rant a bit about somethings I wittnessed but I'll just say that I've never seen a more misogynistic group of humans. And I grew up in a southern fundamentalist conservative family, whom I railed against since childhood. I wear that black sheep label proudly.

One little story -- there was Ali who said he couldn't marry his long-term American gf because she wasn't a virgin! He was fucking her for at least 2 yrs. Then there was the guy I had to slug because he wouldn't accept "no." I was a strong young woman then.

The group as a whole, guys and gals, were kind people. It was just all of their sexual attitudes and very strict submissive gender roles that drove me nuts.


Whoops, on edit: how could I have left off the fact that they, back in the late 60s/early 70s, openly hated Jews.

[katsy]

61. Very well said. Ty

[EL34x4]

73. If I'm on the jury, I'm voting to leave it.

You said:

"The irony is that the American and European Left made exactly the same fundamental, and I would even say racist, mistake as George W. Bush in invading Iraq: assuming that inside everyone from the Middle East is an enlightened European just waiting to get out, embrace our democratic, secular and enlightened values (or so we say) and settle down till the end of history. "

Spot on.

[Nye Bevan]

87. If you post in a thread you will never be chosen as a juror for any post in that thread (nt)

[EL34x4]

96. Learn something new every day about this place. (n/t)

[Throd]

107. Your second paragraph is spot on. n/t

[Jim Beard]

48. Sweden and Denmark had already closed its gates.

Its just too much to absorb and there will be culture clash.

[philosslayer]

54. This is not a problem with migrants....

Or Muslims, or Arabs, or North Africans. Its a problem with MEN. This is a male problem. Men are committing these crimes, and instead of trying to figure out what "group" these men come from, we should focus on men as a whole, and determine why some of them think this is acceptable behavior.

Germany has a well documented rape culture (please see the link below). Similar behavior has been known to take place at Oktoberfest which, based on my experiences there, isn't populated by beer swilling Syrians. It's populated by Lederhosen wearing native Germans.

It makes me sad and sick to think that that these events are being exploited by the far right to breed xenophobia and Islamophobia. THAT is the real danger that lies ahead. Not the actions of a few bad actors.

http://www.vice.com/read/rape-culture-germany-cologne-new-years-2016-876

[frizzled]

55. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt, is it?

nt

[Odin2005]

71. The amount of Fascist Islamophobia in this thread is terrifying.

People here sound no different than Trump supporters.

[Odin2005]

76. The propaganda spewed by imperialism apologists like Sam Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali...

Has been gulped down hook line and sinker. Tying Islamophobia to the "New Atheist" movement was a work of genius, look at all the "progressive" New Atheists here on DU who spout Islamophobic hate speech.

[stone space]

103. You may be right. Some of the posters in this thread scare me.

[Nye Bevan]

94. No posts in this thread have been hidden by a jury,

which suggests that DU in general agrees with the sentiments posted in this thread.

[stone space]

106. There's too many to choose from.

Where to begin?

Skimming thru this thread, I feel like I'm at a Trump rally.

I'm out!

[philosslayer]

123. Well, now they have.

Maybe DU in general isn't quite as Islamophobic as I feared they were.

[DirkGently]

156. Looks like the OP herself has now had a post hidden. n/t

[Turborama]

143. I was about to say something similar. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

89. Wow. That's the mother of all reaches. (nt)

[smirkymonkey]

101. So why is this such a problem since the increase in islamic immigration into Europe?

These numbers were never as out of control before the descent of muslims upon Europe. Anti-Semitism was never in ascent until the islamisation of Europe. There is a reason for this problem and is has to do with islamic immigration.

[FLPanhandle]

104. Winner of the Head in the sand award

Pathetic apologist for sexual assaults just because the crimes were committed by Muslims.

[smirkymonkey]

112. +1000

[Jim Beard]

116. I agree, would they be BLANKET defending Indian males with their rupation for rape.

It isn't common in some other countries but is indeed in India.

[smirkymonkey]

108. I have traveled extensively throughout Germany and have found that German men are nothing but

respectful, as opposed to Southern Europe where men were all over me like white on rice. In fact, I often wondered what was wrong with German men that they did not try to hit on me, coming from Southern Europe and France where it seemed like I couldn't get rid of them. Do not place this on German men because they are not the problem. This is an immigrant problem. Germans are very reticent and stick to their own. They do not harass women and I have been all over the country so this is bullshit. Have you ever actually been there?

[philosslayer]

121. Several times per year

Including at Oktoberfest last year. And I'm going back in March. And my daughter lives in Germany.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

145. 300+ reported assaults on New Years vs several at Oktoberfest is your best rape culture defense.

[bbgrunt]

56. It will be interesting to see what happens when right-wing fundamentalist

christians recognize their brothers in arms.

[abelenkpe]

111. That would be bad. Nt

[qwlauren35]

62. Norway's Approach

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?_r=0

Up there with teaching new migrants the Pledge of Allegiance, we need to teach them expectations about how to treat women. And if they can't follow the laws, deport them or jail them.

[MowCowWhoHow III]

77. I hope they've upped their game in the last 2.5 years

Watch the following for exemplary integration into Norwegian culture...

Islam Net, an organization in Norway, invited 9 speakers to Peace Conference Scandinavia 2013

[smirkymonkey]

110. Wow, that is hopeful!

Not. That just underscores my case that this is not a religion that is compatible with western democratic society.

[KittyWampus]

168. I'd say it's a religious FACTION not compatible w/open societies.

It's not all Muslims.

[grossproffit]

133. "The answer is very simple. Islam is the truth and Christianity and Judaism are not the truth."

@ 1:57 mark.

[FLPanhandle]

95. If someone needs a class to know not to sexually assault women, then they are animals

And should be deported immediately.

I won't throw women under the bus to appear "tolerant" of Islam.

[6chars]

130. I would up the amplitude on that by 1000x

When they come in, tell them not only that these are expectations, but that this is a morally superior viewpoint, and if you don't like it leave, and if you don't follow it, you are a pig and you will be left in jail to rot for decades, or better yet be castrated. Basically let them know there's a new sharif in town.

[hifiguy]

67. Kick and rec.

This revolting and indescribably ugly "culture" cannot and must not be accepted in civilized society.

Bottom line - some "cultures" are simply unacceptable.

[w0nderer]

79. K & R for visibility of this N/T

[romanic]

88. Screaming "islamophobia!" or "xenophobia" or whatever is

no longer acceptable. If you have something to say in defense of immigration from Syria/ME and the cultural differences and problems that come with it then say so.

[Nye Bevan]

90. It's really not that complicated.

If you need to leave your home country and want a foreign country to warmly welcome you as an asylum seeker, don't abuse the hospitality extended to you. And especially don't gang-rape women.

[Quantess]

159. Really? But their culture taught them that women who expose their hair are sluts

We need to be tolerant of their wonderful culture

[Dems to Win]

93. Protect citizens FIRST or be ready to welcome far-right governments

And that would sadly include a President Trump.

In 1994, California passed Proposition 187, a kind of primal scream against uncontrolled illegal immigration. I worry that the country will elect Trump as another angry roar. Events in Germany are not helping matters for us here.

[FLPanhandle]

98. ANY government left or right that doesn't put it's own citizens first

Should be removed immediately.

[TubbersUK]

109. Interesting article

but based on the woeful state of the current intra-left debate, she's being supremely optimistic here:

But the hopeful columnist can still believe it possible to salvage some nuance; perhaps even, heaven forfend, some useful and solid points on which both left and right can agree.

[cheapdate]

117. I guess for some people this proves that their view of Islam was the correct one.

Fundamentalism is the only true form of Islam. Any and all Muslims who are not fundamentalists are lying or practicing Taqyia (lying in defense of the faith.) None can be trusted. Moderates don't exist, only "sleepers".

The only logical response therefore is to drive away all Muslims from decent society.

If that's what one already believed, then this confirms it.

The truth is that that's utterly counterfactual and frankly stupid.

I'm no more worried now that my Muslim neighbors here in Murfreesboro, TN are going on a "rape rampage" than I was before.

There are cruel and dangerous fundamentalists who would gladly kill for their faith. There are conservatives who would tacitly support terrorism but would never act themselves. There are conservatives who believe every word of the holy Koran to be the revealed truth, but who don't believe it commands the death of infidels. There are reformers who believe the Q'uran is the revealed truth but who believe it can be reconciled with modernity. There are moderates who reject all forms of terrorism are concerned over issues such as women's rights and LGBT rights.

[Odin2005]

139. I have noticed a lot of this BS comes from "New Atheist" types from Fundy Christian backgrounds.

Despite their rejection of religion they still follow their Fundamentalist conditioning deep-down and so interpret all religions through that fundamentalist lens. They are incapable of comprehending the existence of devout religious people who are not Fundamentalists.

[cheapdate]

140. True. Like I said, it's totally counterfactual.

If you simply look around there endless examples of Muslims in America and the West simply leading ordinary lives like anyone else.

But they get around that with the "conspiracy theory" type premise that the appearance of normalcy is a lie. Fundamentalism (in their view) is the only true form of Islam, and every normal-seeming Muslim is practicing deception.

Like any good conspiracy theory -- it can't be disproven. So they run with it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

146. "Despite their rejection of religion they still follow their Fundamentalist conditioning deep-down"

So, you reject claims that Islamic culture can foster mob sexual assaults as being baseless Islamophobia but you're wholly prepared to ascribe that Islamophobia to Christian fundamentalist conditioning.

Your post has every appearance of exonerating a rape culture that fosters mob sexual assault is based on nothing more than a dislike of Christians.

I'm not sure what Buddha would think of that but I can't imagine him approving.

[DFW]

134. As a resident of Germany, let me explain something

In western Europe we are against unlimited immigration period, even from other parts of Europe. In Germany, now that Romania and Bulgaria are part of Schengen, there is no limit to people from these countries flooding into Germany and demanding immediate welfare, including housing, pocket money and living allowances. These are people who have lived under colonization by the Soviet empire and their puppet regimes. The only way to survive was to out-trick the regime. The same mentality persists. A Romanian citizen was caught in Holland traveling every month in his Mercedes to 15 different towns, picking up his Dutch welfare money under 15 different Romanian passports. He had been doing this once a month since Romania became part of Schengen. It's an extreme case, but only so because he was careless enough to get caught. Dutch taxpayers were subsidizing this asshole. How do you think it affected people who genuinely needed the help, or the attitudes of the taxpayers paying for it? Western European countries aren't Wyoming. The Netherlands are hardly bigger than Connecticut, and already have over 14 million people. They have tight living conditions, serious environmental concerns, and tensions with people already there from previous waves of immigration. If they are going to accept new waves of people, they are going to want them to speak their language, have useful skills and accept the ways of Dutch society. No one from the Middle East will fulfilling those conditions, Muslim or otherwise, any more than someone from rural Romania or Bulgaria will. The stress is pre-programmed.

[mwrguy]

135. This display of Islamophobia is disgusting

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

142. Sexual assault is disgusting n/m

[PersonNumber503602]

149. Out of curiosity, can you list the specific parts of that article that you find Islamophobic?

Might be a good way to show people what shouldn't be allowed to be said.

[Nye Bevan]

152. Like the German media for the first few days after the attacks,

it seems that some simply want to pretend that it never happened.

[Yo_Mama]

158. Currently 516 reports of crimes that night - this is not Islamophobia

It's organized-bands-of-criminals phobia, and every society has that.

Link to article with cite to reported crime tally.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/zahl-der-anzeigen-in-koeln-nach-uebergriffen-an-silvester-steigt-auf-mehr-als-500-14007148.html

About two hundred of them include charges of sexual assault/molestation. You refuse to admit that a group of people with a common background did this. They did. It does take hundreds to do accomplish this.

Many of the criminals were refugees. Obviously they will never catch most of them.

The problem with your constant cries of Islamophobia are that they have been raised to prevent the arrests and expulsion of all these refugees who are really criminals, and this was the inevitable result.

A phobia is an unreasonable fear. The fear is no longer unreasonable. It is people like you who created the situation and this reasonable fear. It will end up hurting the innocent too, but that's because of the crimes of the guilty.

You are not on the side of justice or decency at this point. Take a good long look in the mirror and sit down and think. Wanting to do right doesn't always equate to doing the right thing.

[Jim Beard]

172. It isn't Islamophobia, its about massive immigration and criminal behavior

[Matrosov]

153. Some progressives only care about how they appear to others

..and they're willing to turn their backs on homosexuals and women for the sake of appearing enlightened and tolerant when they dismiss any criticism of Islam as racist, proclaim themselves experts because two of their buddies are Muslim, or counter every argument by bringing up something fucked up from Christianity from 1000 years ago.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

161. I wish I could share your sentiment but

those who are excuse making for the rapists and impugning the victims and their defenders know full well that their views go against popular opinion. These individuals are not concerned with how they appear. I don't know what motivates them but appearances aren't it. Perhaps going against the grain makes them feel elite and enlightened but superiority complexes are a poor basis for public policy and only invite a backlash.

[DirkGently]

155. What "truth" is that?

This is the way racists talk. "Those people" did this, so we need to do that to all of "them?"

You don't get to indict people of one cultural description or another based on the supposed cultural description of people who did something wrong.

And you can't protect yourself from future bad acts by screening or scrutinizing people based on their cultural profile either.

Those aren't "truths" that the "left" or anyone else need to reckon with.

[pampango]

157. As long as we don't have to become RW refugee-haters in order to beat RW refugee-haters in

the next election.

Face the truth. The left is much better at that than is the right. Adjust liberal policies as needed but do not adopt RW policies. We'll leave that to conservative Democrats, not liberal ones.

[Jim Beard]

173. Another Guardian article

The Cologne assaults challenge the German sense of order – and many fear what comes next

""Christel, a self-described leftist from the Cologne area, said she wanted Germany to help the refugees but now she worries that terrorists are among them. She worries the assaults will push more people toward the AfD and worse, Pegida, regardless of who did it. And she worries that those who are helping the refugees who are already tired and overwhelmed now feel despair and wonder, why am I doing this?

“Out of political correctness, we don’t want to openly talk about what having more Muslims in our country mean for our culture, our way of life,” she said. “We don’t want to lose our freedoms, our freedom of expression, or our freedom of movement – our freedom, especially hard won for women, to be equal, to feel safe. But at the same time, I don’t want to see the far right take hold of our country – I don’t think most people want that.”

“There is so many emotions right now,” she added. “We aren’t having a rational discussion. And what matters now is what happens next.” ""