For those advocating a forcible end to the Maheur idiocy....

[Whiskeytide]

... how do you see something like that going down? Tell me how that's going to have a positive outcome?

It seems likely people could be killed or at least shot full of holes in an operation to retake the park. Are you okay with that?

What would be the political fallout nationally? Should that even matter? Should Obama consider the impact something like that might have on the 2016 race?

What about blocking the roads and preventing resupplying and coming/going. Do you support that? What would have happened this weekend if there had been a checkpoint on the road manned by 10 or 15 officers - and the 18 vehicle convoy of 3%ers came roaring up? How would you see that working out?

The checkpoint needs 50 officers and armored vehicles, you say? Okay - how much will that cost - and, assuming no immediate plans to assault the building, are we prepared to deploy such a force at checkpoints for weeks - months?

And, even we posted a Natl Guard platoon, the 3% roaring up on the scene might still make that an interesting confrontation and cause dead people, right?

WAIT THEM OUT! There is nothing good to be gained from shooting the place up. They are being derided in most MSM, cartoons and social media. Hell - if nothing happens for a few weeks, the American people will likely forget about them the minute something shinier flashes across the TeeVee.

They WANT a siege - a "stand off" - with a ton of coverage. I don't think they really want a shootout (that's why they sent the 3%ers out of there - because they might want an actual shootout, and Bundy-n-bunch would be standing in yellow snow if that happened). Making them look all ready for a fight with no one to fight with - well, that's almost the very meaning of impotent in their eyes, and I'm loving that.

[snooper2]

1. As I've noted a couple times, just use water

freeze the beeyatches!

[Jerry442]

3. I remember reading somewhere...

...that misplaced drops of firefighting water and/or chemicals had really done a number on Forest Service vehicles. It seems that it doesn't exactly "droppeth as the gentle rain from Heaven."

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. No it does not

And retardant can literally rust the paint off

[backscatter712]

36. Oh, water-bombers can kill.

That mass of water, with or without fire-retardant or firefighting foam in it, comes down with a hell of a lot of force.

[awoke_in_2003]

81. I'd bet the straight water weighs more. nt

[Arugula Latte]

5. Better yet, commercial airlines can just unload their toilets over these fucknuts.

[JustAnotherGen]

80. I like this idea

[mountain grammy]

90. Yeah!! Love it!

[Megahurtz]

107. LOL n/t

[Jerry442]

2. Agree mostly, but...

...the Bundy ranch protesters should have been made to pay a price through fines, attachment of assets, outstanding warrants that allowed apprehension away from assembled masses of other thugs, and other slow-turn-of-the-screw penalties.

That this does not seem to have happened sets the stage for a bloodbath somewhere that the Feds are trying so hard to avoid.

[Logical]

4. So just let them control it how long? 1 month, 3 months? Nt

[Act_of_Reparation]

7. Why not?

It's not as if Malheur is a critical federal installation. It isn't imperative to the well-being of the country, the State of Oregon, or even Harney County that it be liberated immediately.

These guys undertook this effort under the impression there would be a quick resolution... so quick they didn't think to pack snacks. They don't seem prepared, logistically or psychologically, for a long siege. If reports of infighting are to be believed, they are already falling apart.

Maybe I'm wrong, it seems to me storming the facility presents a lot of risk for very little reward. Waiting them out is bound to produce the same results, and it won't cost the country anything.

[Logical]

28. Not storm it but at least issue warrants and also detain anyone leaving and going into town. nt

[randys1]

29. Yes, detain those coming and going, for sure. But beyond that, just wait them out and

then indict and try them for their felonies.

Obama must do this, because there are TENS OF MILLIONS of armed white assholes in this country DYING to have an excuse to shoot up the place.

I believe that.

Obama believes that, and he is doing what a Black man must do that a white man wouldn't even have to consider.

[TeddyR]

55. I don't even know what that last sentence means

You do realize that statistically speaking the majority of shootings are committed by black males? I apologize in advance if I'm missing your point.

[SammyWinstonJack]

84. I don't know what it means either.

[Fla Dem]

93. Care to share your source for that statistic. Most mass shootings are committed by white males.

I tried to find a source for your statement that "majority of shootings are committed by black males".

This was the best I could do to even come close to an analysis of black shooters vs white shooters.

Who commits mass shootings?

According to data compiled by Mother Jones magazine, which looked at mass shootings in the United States since 1982, white people -- almost exclusively white men -- committed some 64% of the shootings.

<snip>

"Black people committed close to 16% of the mass shooting Mother Jones looked at, while Asians were responsible for around 9%. People identified as either Latino, Native American and unknown rounded out the study.

"If you look at the whole list, it turns out that whites and blacks are pretty proportionate to their population, very close," said Dave Cullen, author of the book "Columbine," which tells the story of the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado. Harris and Klebold, the shooters there, were white."

<more>

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/27/us/mass-shootings/

[Blanks]

30. Just make sure we have their pictures...

Get their names. In 6 months arrest them for criminal trespass or breaking and entering.

And whatever else they've done illegally.

[Act_of_Reparation]

92. That's still problematic.

Remember, these guys are armed to the teeth and are itching for a confrontation with authorities. Attempting to arrest even those who leave the area presents considerable risk in that it may provoke a violent response from the suspects, or from the rest of the tangos back at the refuge.

At the moment, no one is in imminent danger. We know who these clowns are, and where they live. We could always hang back, wait for these guys to give up and go home, and then nail them when they're getting their morning coffee the week after.

[KittyWampus]

88. It's a BIRD SANCTUARY. Migration happens in a few months.

Also, they apparently have cut down a fence and allowed cattle on the land.

[Act_of_Reparation]

89. Well, shit, that changes everything.

Let's risk another Ruby Ridge on the off-chance every species of migratory bird passing through Malheur this year will be irreparably harmed by a broken fence and a herd of cattle.

[LanternWaste]

11. Isn't it rather irrational to imply the only two choices available are violence or waiting for month

Isn't it rather irrational to imply the only two choices available are violence or waiting for months?

[Logical]

25. OK, give me your alternative. In complete paragraphs. nt

[Whiskeytide]

34. I wouldn't say irrational ...

... maybe overly simplistic. But I get your point. I think legal maneuvering - civil claims - is appropriate at present. But I'm not sure arrest warrants would even be of benefit. Turning off the power? Maybe. But why, really? It just gives them more victimhood status - at least in their minds and those of their supporters - if they lose some fingers/toes to frost bite.

Let them get tired and go home. Then sue them for damages, rent, lost profits, etc... Much less sensational and probably fewer dead people on both sides.

[Whiskeytide]

12. What do they "control", really?

... It's frozen tundra, marshlands and forests. They are not damaging anything except their own reputation as "tough-guy warriors" standing up to a gubmint that doesn't consider them worthy of a confrontation. They're like the bully up the street who declares he'll fight anyone who tries to walk on HIS sidewalk. Just cross to the other side of the street and ignore him, and eventually he'll get tired and go inside. The only thing they CAN control is the narrative, but only if we let them.

[Logical]

24. So any remote federal office is now game for nut jobs? nt

[Whiskeytide]

35. That depends on how this works out in the end, right?

If we let them keep it and own it, then yes. But if we let them hang out until they're cold and tired and go home, and them sue them for damages ... probably not so much. I'm not advocating we let them have the land. I'm just saying there's no benefit from an assault to retake the property.

[Sylvarose]

56. and what happens if nothing continues to happen?

...how much more property will they destroy? How many more fences? Do we start letting them dig and rebuild? How about cut down trees to burn? What what happens to the data they are rooting through? What about the personal information of the employees who work there?

At what point do we say that it's enough?

I admit..I don't have the answers. I admit I'm posting in frustration. The only thing I can think at a local level is the people who don't support them is not to do ANY business with them. Refuse to sell them gas, food and don't let them stay at in your hotels. But I know that's probably not realistic either.

[lapislzi]

98. You can sue them all you want

They're all avowed scofflaws. Fines and suits will have absolutely no effect on their current behavior or the future behavior of similar scofflaws.

If there was one takeaway from the Nevada Bundy standoff, it was that. These people operate with utter impunity and recognize no authority.

On the other hand, if THEY draw first blood, by accident or design, all bets are off. And I wouldn't bet against that happening, the more time that passes.

[handmade34]

46. "frozen tundra, marshlands and forests"

as for me... I value and respect our natural resources (frozen tundra, marshlands and forests, etc) more than any other component of this fiasco... "not damaging anything"? yes they are, and it is mine and yours that they are damaging

[Whiskeytide]

48. I don't like that any more than you...

... but it's hard to damage that remote environment. I have heard they plan to take down fences and graze cattle on the land - but I don't think it's THEIR cattle. I don't think the local ranchers are supporting them wholeheartedly. Are they going to drive their own cattle to the preserve?

They look foolish. Let them continue to look foolish. Then bring them consequences at the end of the day. I certainly don't advocate letting them damage this land without having to pay for it, but creating a stand off spectacle for their benefit is counterproductive.

[hlthe2b]

14. Starve 'em out, turn off utilities, arrest them when they quit/ add the $$ damage to their sentences

[Logical]

22. I am fine with that! nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

63. As Spring approaches, the refuge will NEED that facility.

It's the center for all the work done there.

[branford]

67. We have a while until Spring. nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

68. Fortunately, yes.

I don't expect those clowns to be there that long...but then again, I didn't expect them to be there this long.

[branford]

71. My internal timeline looks to the Occupy protests.

The militia yahoos are in the middle of nowhere in winter, they haven't appeared to directly endanger or threaten anyone or really affected government services or the lives of most people, and have been camped there less time than the NYC and other Occupiers who were generally in the heart of civilization, breaking similar laws, disrupting many lives and services, enjoying similar freedom of movement, and not really facing the threat of arrest.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7519947

I want this mess to end peacefully for everyone, not risk giving greater attention or legitimacy to any of the militia crazies, and definitely not risk creating a political problem for Democrats in an election year.

Law enforcement professionals on the scene know all the risks and benefits of the situation and have no tactical reasons to act in haste. If simple patience ends this stand-off, I don't see why there would be any objections, particularly from people on DU who regularly complain about militant and needlessly aggressive policing. Of course, if the situation markedly changes on the ground, my opinion could certainly change, and patience alone might not be sufficient to peacefully end the stand-off,

[Lizzie Poppet]

72. We're definitely on the same page.

While I've been concerned from the start about the effect this nonsense might have on the refuge, I've also been preaching patience. As long as these yahoos haven't actually shot at anyone, I see no reason anyone has to die over this.

[branford]

73. Many of these militia nuts WANT a violent confrontation with the government.

I tend to not want to play into the fantasies of bigots if it can be avoided, particularly with real lives and potentially horrible political consequences for our Party and president.

[Lizzie Poppet]

74. Yep...confrontation and even martyrdom.

Can you just imagine how affronted they'd be at having that commonality with Daesh and al Qaeda pointed out to them?

[lamp_shade]

6. I could not agree with you more "...almost the very meaning of impotent"

[fredamae]

8. At what point

do they say enough is enough?
Unconfirmed reports are talking about heavy equipment being brought in to begin to dismantle federal property--fences, to be exact.
When is enough - Enough?

[Whiskeytide]

13. If they do start damaging federal lands, ...

... that may present a different scenario. But a shootout still isn't the answer IMO. It hurts worse than it helps.

[fredamae]

37. I certainly don't know

what the answer is....but It seems as though they are being encouraged by inaction...every time they do this crap.
They're insane if they really believe they can Defeat the government.
It seems their goal is to push it Until it comes down to a "shootout". I cannot understand why do they not at least take some simple actions like shutting off water/elec etc. Allow them to leave, get medical care/medicines etc-but not shop for supplies (food, fuel etc) load 'em on a bus and send 'em back home.

[handmade34]

61. here they are today

using gov't vehicles to destroy fencing put up with our taxes by hardworking people

[Whiskeytide]

76. That certainly sucks...

... But I don't think fence posts are worth even one federal officer's life. Or even worth giving these yahoos the public stand off they want so badly. Again - they look like Yosemite Sam. Let's act like Bugs Bunny.

Hopefully - HOPEFULLY - we can sell off a few hundred head of Cattle to restore the fences.

[MohRokTah]

91. The fenceline they destroyed cost $100,000.

But we let heavily armed white rightwing terrorists get away with anything they want to do in this country.

[geek tragedy]

9. The Bundy thugs aren't the ones looking impotent--they have seized federal land with impunity

via armed force.

Meanwhile, the feds do nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing about the Bundy clan's armed insurrection. No charges brought against anyone--NONE--for pointing weapons at federal employees at the Bundy ranch.

They will continue this until the federal government shows that it has an interest in enforcing the law.

[Whiskeytide]

20. I agree they need to suffer consequences when this ...

... is all said and done. I just don't see any advantage to creating a confrontation that, really, only stands to benefit them and/or (more likely) damage the federal government's standing. Much better to make them look like Yosemite Sam wannabes.

But - the Bundy Ranch fiasco doesn't make me optimistic about eventual consequences. I'll give you that.

[geek tragedy]

38. at some point the public has a right to access a public wildlife refuge.

What's going to happen when the birders with spotting scopes and big cameras go in?

[grntuscarora]

10. Fine.

I haven't read any posts calling for blood, but I don't read every DU post.
My only demand is that once these seditionists stand down, that every one pf them is arrested and brought to trial. Lengthy jail time and full financial reparations for damage done to the nature refuge. Anything less would be a travesty, imo.

[MohRokTah]

15. You go in with armed federal agents and initiate arrests.

If there is a shootout, it will be initiated by the terrorists who hold the federal property. It's on them.

[randome]

17. But it must be filmed to remove all doubt as to who started it.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[MohRokTah]

18. Body cams on all federal agents and long range telephoto shots of the raid.

They'll prove who did what.

[randys1]

33. Obama knows how that will look. It will look like the Black president sent in the troops

to kill good ole white boys, at which point TENS OF MILLIONS of armed assholes might start shooting the country up.

Obama cant risk that.

Or he wont, because he cares too much about the country and his legacy.

[fredamae]

41. Yea...I get that too...but the optics

of the former inaction and inaction Now - imo - seems worse....

I know one fact...that I am damned glad I'm not in the drivers seat dealing with this. I can't imagine what that's like, frankly.

[randys1]

43. Them gun clinging, religion clinging you know who's have more guns and are much

angrier today than 7 yrs ago.

They lost again in 2012, and this made them even angrier.

They believe the most insane, COMPLETELY INSANE shit about Obama, and are very very dangerous

[fredamae]

49. They do believe the most insane

shit about Obama...No doubt there.

Again...I'm torn between taking them down...and letting them go on. Maybe they're letting the anger build...waiting for their collective corks to blow and then they'll go in....while at the same time hoping they'll get their collective shit together (ain't gonna happen, imo).

I am far away from this crap....but it is my state and while I may disagree with the conservative politics of my fellow Oregonians - I am quite concerned about their safety as this continues to build. It's not like they can all just pick up and go someplace else until its over...I doubt they'd do that anyway...

[geek tragedy]

45. If those white boys shoot at federal agents they will have zero sympathy

The President has a duty to see to it that the law is enforced.

[JustAnotherGen]

99. I don't believe they are going to retaliate

I don't.

[Atman]

16. This is one of those cases where ignoring them will really make them go away.

They WANT a fight. They WANT the media attention. That's all they are there for. They don't want a shed in a national park. They want an excuse to be able to use all the guns they've amassed...and shootin' at the evil Fed'ral Gub'mit is a great way to gain media attention. That's all they want.

It's not much different than what my dad used to tell me when I was a kid, and my brother was taunting me and trying to get me going,,,just ignore him. It will stop being fun really quick.

[Whiskeytide]

23. That's it. Except...

... I don't think the original assholes really want a shooting fight. They wanted publicity. They expected the Feds to show up in force and make it a spectacle. Not letting that happen was the smart move by LE.

Now - these 3% guys and some of the other ones coming it or threatening to come in? I don't know about them. I think some of them DO want a real fight. I don't think Bundy ever thought that contingency through. He probably figured LE would have cordoned off the refuge by now, and the prospect of unwanted "reinforcements" wouldn't have crossed his mind. He's probably looking around now and thinking "Holy cow shit, these people are fucking nuts".

[geek tragedy]

50. What if they don't leave? nt

[Whiskeytide]

52. If we ignore them...

... they WILL leave. It might take a while, but they will. They don't really want a cabin in the woods. They want a confrontation and publicity.

[geek tragedy]

59. And what happens when they start running cattle in there to destroy the habitat? nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

64. Then let Oregon Game and Fish declare a special open hunting season...

...on cattle on the refuge.

[geek tragedy]

65. why not just declare open season on armed insurgents? nt

[Whiskeytide]

78. Where will these cattle come from?

I don't think any of these guys are local - and I saw reports that the local Rangers were like warm to their cause at best. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

But if they cause damage, they need to be held accountable. Just not deep sixed.

[Bluenorthwest]

86. The word for running someone else's cattle is 'rustling' that is theft. If the cattle owners permit

the running on to refuge land then they are accountable. The Bundy Gang has no cattle in Oregon.

[branford]

66. Exactly. nt

[LiberalElite]

75. Except that to me, MSM is ignoring them just like it ignores the Kardashians nt

[Hekate]

95. The media is there: you can see the fuzzy mic boom in the photo above

Everything is a photo-op. They want their martyrdom. They want their 15 minutes of fame. They want to use their arsenals. They want everything but the small and meaningless lives they have.

[2pooped2pop]

19. I have no problem with waiting them out as long as it ends in arrests

It didn't last time. The government just backed down and let them show them who was boss. Now they believe they are the boss and above the law. It's starting to look like it too.

[Xolodno]

21. Agreed.

They want an armed conflict...why give it to them?

Hit them from a different avenue...bill them for damages, costs, etc. Then if they refuse to pay, gouge their social security, government benefits, etc.

Don't play by their rules.

[JustAnotherGen]

100. Seize their homes

Sell them right out from under their numerous quiverfull children.

[hobbit709]

27. Something needs to be done. Doing nothing just encourages them to do more next time.

At the very least the government should have cut off utilities, phone access and supplies and reinforcements from getting there.

[HassleCat]

31. Basically, yes

Just notify them they will be charged according to how long the illegally occupy a federal facility. Let them think they got away with it, and arrest them one by one when they return home.

[geek tragedy]

39. That worked brilliantly ex post Bundy ranch. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Several points here

If they were a black militia we would have the FBI already in place. Ditto for American Indians, Muslims or Hispanics. This is white supremacy.

As to a perimeter, it is quite standard SWAT procedure to put a perimeter in place and WAIT, establish communications and solve this without a shootout, except I guess if you are white.

They have broken a slew of laws, breaking and entering is just the real obvious one. And as to the cost. My god, a proper perimeter might have prevented the 3 percenters from coming in, and these guys re-supplying

We are all enjoying the double standard though and at this point the Feds look like cowards who are unable, or unwilling, to enforce the law on some good ol' boys who happen to be white. But they will use force on Black Lives Matter activists (and the media covering that) as well as Occupy or Grannies for Peace. We all know chocolate chip cookies are dangerous after all

[Whiskeytide]

40. I think you're right about the issue of a double standard...

... and that is an ongoing stain on this country. But my posst wasn't in contradiction of that.

The issue is how to best handle this existing scenario. I'd say the same no matter who they are.

A proper perimeter might have kept the 3%ers out? - maybe. But at what cost? I think it was actually pretty smart of our federal authorities to foresee that possibility and decide that an armed confrontation on the road was as unproductive as an armed confrontation at the lodge. So what if they get more snacks and footwear if our strategy is to ignore them as inconsequential, right?

Look = I agree it's not right. I agree they have broken laws. I agree they should suffer consequences. I just don't agree that an armed assault or a siege/stand-off is the best solution. Mock them. They deserve it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Who said a thing about an assault

Contain, negotiate, and resolve, with federal charges, That is what they should be doing.

Yeah they are probably worried about WACO and Ruby Ridge, but you know what? They are establishing a hell of a non healthy precedent. I hope the feds enjoy more of this shit, because they will have more of this shit.

[Sylvarose]

42. look..I don't want guns a blazin'..

..but there has to be something more being done. Now they are cutting down fences and using govt. vehicles to do it. What is the damage going to be when we suddenly do have ranches letting their herds trample unchecked on this refuge area? And if there's no response to them doing it this time? What's to stop them from keeping going?

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=%23Oregonstandoff&src=tyah


Also..now they are admitting to going through govt documents

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/armed-group-going-through-government-documents/13231086

[Whiskeytide]

51. But whatever we do besides ignore them...

... as inconsequential idiots is likely to push it toward guns-a-blazin'. Like a checkpoint on the road. What would that have accomplished when these new guys came up in their trucks full of guns? "Damn. Somebody's gotta go back and get a shitload of dimes"? Probably not. I think it would have turned bad very quickly.

[LiberalArkie]

44. How can you "Wait them out" if they are allowed the use of heating and electricity and water

and trucks can come and go and bring whatever supplies they want to them. No one appears to be trying to make them wait it out.

I think it had been anyone else that at least maybe the electricity would have been turned off. Maybe brought in a bull dozer and opened the road where no vehicles would be able to travel to the building.

[Vinca]

47. I'm with you. I wouldn't be surprised to see them get pizza deliveries.

At the very least cut off the utilities and close the road to the place. If it takes armored vehicles that's fine. As I recall there were plenty of armored vehicles on the streets of Ferguson, MO to handle the black demonstrators. This is a bird sanctuary for heaven's sake. They don't have the balls to take over a military installation. Birders want it back!

[Hekate]

96. The authorities really should have cut off the utilities right at the beginning.

[Bettie]

53. There seem to be a lot of people whose attitude is

Eh, it's just a bird sanctuary, just let them have it and anything else they want. They get to come and go

This stems right from Bundy, who STILL has not paid his grazing fees, because he won that round.

Now, even here, people are advocating for giving the right wing nutjobs another win, to embolden them to go for something less remote next time.

How much before any one of them gets any consequences for their actions? Do they have to kill federal workers?

If so, how many before it is OK to stop them from coming and going from whatever location they decide to take over?

Or is the point that there should be no consequences for these individuals because armed white men get to do whatever they please?

What you are proposing is to just let them do what they please, free from consequences.

[fredamae]

54. Now they've begun to use fed. equip to destroy "our" property

"OR standoff crew depart from federal building to use federal equipment to destroy federal fence"
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/1/11/1468520/-OR-standoff-crew-depart-from-federal-building-to-use-federal-equipment-to-destroy-federal-fence?detail=facebook

[Jim Beard]

57. I think the Feds want the locals

to start asking the Feds for help. The locals are already sick of them. They don't like the feds but they need their help.

[DFW]

58. Do like they do at Panmunjom

Set up huge loudspeakers at the perimeter, blaring out some kind of music they probably won't like (Verdi opera comes to mind) during the night, Malcolm X speeches during the day, something like that. Turn off water, jam radio, no food or supplies or press releases. Answer any press inquiries with "who knows or cares?" Leave one phone line open for them to call the Feds and hang up on any call that says something other than "we surrender, and are coming out with our hands up and without our weapons." Let them know there are long range snipers trained on them in case they are lying. When they are in jail, THEN tell the press, " oh, THOSE guys? We arrested them a while back."

We can't have a double standard--shoot down non-whites and leave white guys alone when they do this. They must face the music and defend their actions in court like any other criminal. But make sure they are not allowed to make martyrs out of themselves--which was probably not on their agenda anyway, and put them away for long enough time that the media isn't interested in making Duck Dynasty stars out of them either. Two years down the road, they'll be forgotten federal prisoners, which is the worst punishment they could suffer (as far as they are concerned).

[davidpdx]

87. The loud speakers sounds like a fun idea.

Play a little bit of rap music and that will drive them crazy. My second choice would be to get a copy of the propaganda the Chinese Government feeds their people (also would drive them crazy).

Cutting off the water and electricity should have been done already.

There are plenty of ways to confine them in a non-confrontational way.

[ljm2002]

60. Allowing them and others free access in and out...

...is NOT "waiting them out".

It is coddling criminals.

I don't buy the hand wringing "Oh our poor law enforcement are helpless, helpless I tell you! They have no choice but to let these bozos go into town and get groceries and meals, then return unimpeded to their hidey-hole. And if others want to come in, how could they POSSIBLY be stopped?"

I seem to remember some damned big, heavy equipment used at the end of the San Bernardino episode. Remember that SUV shot all to hell? Remember the heavy equipment they were using to make sure they were safe? How the hell much did that cost? Did anyone even ask? Most of us felt they got what they damned well deserved. It seems law enforcement can find and use appropriate militarized equipment when they have a mind to.

[pansypoo53219]

69. forfeit each cow+ to COST. start rounding up their cattle & make it hamburger.

[roamer65]

70. I wouldn't take it out on the cattle.

But Occupy should do exactly to their property as what they are doing to ours. Occupy it and claim it for the 99 percent.

[Rex]

77. Wait then out!? What does that even mean!? They can come and go as they please!

The delusions of some about how they would like this to be and not how it is in reality is starting to strain their credibility imo. Laws are conditional when it comes to white folks of the RWing armed types...we GET IT and I guess they WON!

[Whiskeytide]

79. I'm only saying don't make it an armed...

... Stand off. That's what they want. I'm not advocating we give them the land. Sue and or prosecute them as may be appropriate, but don't play into their western cinema fantasies about "rugged individualism" and intrusive gubmint.

[SHRED]

82. At the very least shut it down

Water, power, and phones.

[jmowreader]

83. We could try it a different way

Sometime about 2 am, the National Guard will seize Ammon Bundy's truck repair shop and convert it into a tracked-vehicle motor pool. If Bundy wants his shop back, he can surrender along with his entire band of outlaws and plead guilty to all the crimes they committed.

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. "Kill 'em all." Those words were posted here yesterday. nt

[JustAnotherGen]

102. If they shoot first

I have no problem with that.

[cherokeeprogressive]

108. The poster I quoted said something to the effect of "If a single shot is fired, kill 'em all."

Yeah... that's just sheer stupidity.

[JustAnotherGen]

110. Well - if law enforcement fears for their lives

They have the right to defend themselves. So I've read at DU Over the past few years.

[Whiskeytide]

105. Nothing good could possibly come from ...

... an armed stand off or a shoot out. Nothing. It amazes me how quick some of us are to call for "puttin' them down" in a bloodbath. SMH.

But I will say we are not controlling the narrative like we should. There should be federal spokespeople on the news 6 times a day explaining why they're actions are a crock of shit. We should be damning the stalking in Burns and the destruction of the refuge's property. Make these assholes look like the assholes they are through a concerted and well run PR campaign. I'm having trouble understanding why that can't be done.

[callous taoboy]

94. PBS Newshour has completely ignored them, I believe.

I don't watch any network "news," so I can only imagine the sensationalism happening over there.

[Hugin]

97. I'd be happy with SOME SORT OF PUSH-BACK from our representatives.

How about a press conference stating intimidation of the locals or federal employees will not be tolerated? A billboard with a running tally of charges and potential fines? Something? Anything? Hello?


As of now, the howdy doody terrorists are seen as winning. Our legally elected representative government (which we pay a pretty penny for, BTW.) is beginning to look as if it is AWOL at all levels not just to us, but, to the larger international audience. Some of those international figures are truly dangerous.

[Renew Deal]

101. Drone strike

Just kidding

[Kermitt Gribble]

103. No action only emboldens the other lunatics across the country. n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

104. keep kicking the can down the road on these guys.

and eventually this country will see what a REAL bloodbath looks like.

They're not going to go away just because we close our eyes and pretend they will.

[Megahurtz]

106. Wait them out?

Do you realize they will just squat there and steal the land if nothing is done?

[Whiskeytide]

109. Acquiring title to land ...

... requires squatting on it for longer than a few months or even a few years. They can't really steal it - only occupy it.

They are damaging property, and I hope will be held accountable for that. But that's not worth lives, severe political fallout, and the long term price of giving them the confrontation they want. I admit that doing little or nothing NOW does make the Feds look inept, but that is the correct strategy.

Civil and or criminal actions MUST be brought later.

Now - this shit about LEO/Fed employees and their families being stalked in Burns - THAT is serious shit and has to be addressed. But I suspect these perpetrators are the 3%ers Bundy turned away from the lodge. Maybe they're doing it with Bundy's blessings or even instructions - maybe not. I don't know. But that has to be dealt with immediately and with force if necessary.

BUT - the Feds have to do a better job of controlling the narrative. Federal spokespersons need to be in front of tv cameras a lot describing how these assholes are being assholes.

I don't get why that's not being done.