God turntables sound freakin' good

[wilt the stilt]

nothing like vinyl for sound. I just got a copy of Suzanne Vega's second album and it blow's away my CD and I have an excellent Rotel Cd player.

[Wilms]

1. Heh.

[Octafish]

180. Wait until yon novice gets to the original files...

[Wilms]

185. In the case of that song, it would be tape.

I bet many have not listened to much better than MP3, let alone a CD. And analog...

I'm hoping for an increased interest in lossless and higher resolution because audio mediums are arguably, generally worse now than ever.

But I want to be careful given what happened down-thread. Better that I just run off and find Legend of the Mind on vinyl!

[Octafish]

187. Rodrigues hears you...

[Wilms]

188. Must have been him.

Stereo Review had an edition featuring ways to tweak and maintain your stereo. An accompanying cartoon shows a guy taking apart his receiver, parts all over, when a bee flies out of it.

[MohRokTah]

2. I will always prefer digital to vinyl. eom

[Hoyt]

3. I thought I would never say that, but agree especially if mastered for digital.

I might disagree if I had thousands of dollars for tube preamps, amps,etc., right listening area, and patience to take care of vinyl.

I've had some of that, not top of line or anything, but I swear the sound I get from my HTC phone is incredible. Plus, I like to record some of my instruments. Again digital is only way to go unless one has big bucks and a lot of time to edit tape.

[MohRokTah]

4. Plus I can rip digital and listen to it on multiple devices.

My patience for vinyl wore out the first time I used CD format.

[Hoyt]

6. I avoided CDs for a long time as a puris But when I finally converted, never went back.

Too easy to skip around, repeat, etc. Even had a 300 disk player at one time, but there was a sonic penalty for all the money spent on the changer. I've heard stuff I never heard on the vinyl versions.

But I get people who prefer vinyl.

[wilt the stilt]

9. If you know how to buy it is not so costly

Cd's sound way better than mp3's. I also like the convenience on my phone. Lossless is the best digital. If you want to buy the best inexpensive speaker out today, try the Pioneer spfs52.They are hands down the best cheap speaker out there$260 a pair at bestbuy. I just bought them and they are shockingly good.

[wilt the stilt]

5. I have a very good friend who has a way better system than me

mine maybe $3000 including a very good turntable. When he heard my turntable he went right home and bought a VPI turntable that cost$2,000. My cartridge right now is $450. I know it is costly but the sound differential is amazing. as my friend said"drums sound lke drums"

[SusanCalvin]

8. Same here, and I'm a codger.

After CDs, vinyl became TOO MUCH TROUBLE.

I have a top-notch 1980s turntable. With a Shure V15 Type IV. I'll still take my CDs, thank you.

I really wonder how many people who praise vinyl actually have a good turntable.

Show of hands - who knows what these mean? Wow, flutter, rumble, vibration isolation, skating, s/n ratio. What are the advantages and disadvantages of J, S, and straight tone arms? How do you align your cartridge? What's the best cartridge? Why? Belt or direct drive? Why? I could go on, but I'm sure nobody wants me to....!

I do want to digitize some of my vinyl (some things you can't get any other way), and after research I was dissuaded from getting one of those usb turntables - terrible, terrible specs. So I got a doohickie to get my good turntable into my computer. Plus a record washer.

Like I said, too much trouble unless you can't get it any other way.

[wilt the stilt]

10. I have a systemdek

a copy of a linn sondek lp 12 with a sumiko bluepoint on one system and an AR with a Pickering xsv-3000 on my other system. your cartridge is a classic.

[SusanCalvin]

13. I put a lot of research time into that turntable and cartridge.

Sounds like you did the same 30+ years later!

[wilt the stilt]

14. buy a mobile fidelity direct to disc vinyl

and tell me about the sound. I have a modified dynaco pas 3 built by van alstine. I also rebuilt some other dynaco stuff. I used to have a dynaco st70 but I sold it on ebay. It is a tube amp I bought it for $290 and sold it for $450

[SusanCalvin]

15. Interesting.

Reminds me of when half-speed mastered was the big thing.

[wilt the stilt]

18. The original girl from ipenema

was recorded at 30ips instead of 15 ips. get a km audiophile version of that and you will swear they are in the room with you. If you haven't bought a pair of speakers in a while the pioneer spfs 52 are shocking good.

$260 a pair at bestbuy and this from a guy who has B&W speakers

[Elwood P Dowd]

20. The new Elac speakers are even better. Cost about $280.00. Same designer, Andrew Jones.

I have that Getz/Gilberto Analogue Productions 45 rpm double LP. Better than my old Verve and stomps the CD version really bad. Only problem -- it cost about $50.00.

[wilt the stilt]

21. that is $280 each

The Pioneers are for a pair. Pretty unbelievable. I have the old Verve.

[Elwood P Dowd]

84. The Elac B6 is $279.00 a pair. (nm)

[wilt the stilt]

101. I'm talking about the towers

for bass reproduction.

[hifiguy]

104. I've heard that on a $450,000 system at CES

and on my own reference-level review system, which was barely less costly, though I owned very little of it.

Close your eyes and you could swear you can reach out and touch Stan Getz and the Gilbertos, Joao and Astrud. Chills ran up and down the spine.

[LiberalArkie]

139. I had a friend that had a pair of Electrovoice Patrician speakers and a pair of MacIntosh amps

to power them. Heaven on earth. The 30" woofers, the tweeters could produce sound that made the dog howl. His turntable was an old RCA from a radio station that had about a 5hp motor and about a 40lb flywheel on it.

[hifiguy]

146. The first great stereo I saw/heard belonged to my organ teacher

(and her husband) when I studied classical and theater organ back around 1968-71. Fancy dress Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater loudspeakers driven by all-McIntosh tube electronics and a massive Rondine Rek-O-Kut turntable.

She played performances of pieces I was assigned on that stereo, which was in the same room as their Rodgers (electronic) theater organ in her home. The first time she played Virgil Fox - with whom she had taken master classes - playing Bach on that system it changed my life and I became an audio junkie.

[LiberalArkie]

151. Altec lansing made some good speakers. But I kind liked a speaker the EV specs that said

"Produces sound that can be felt as well as heard". That massive 30" woofer and 8" midrange horn. I guess that is why I pretty deaf now.

I had to look it up, I am pretty sure it was the EV Patrician 800

I think some churches used them with the Hammond B3, Why I do not know as the Leslie on the B3 to me is heaven on earth.

15hz - 23,000 hz

[hifiguy]

154. If the big Altecs were the Voice of the Theater

the Patricians - or full size Klipschorns - would be the Voice of the Whole Neighborhood.

[LiberalArkie]

157. You are about right. We had a party at his house and I was outside and could not

hear the fire engine with the siren on flying by the house. Wonderful era. I think the Klipschorns are still made down the highway from me.

[hifiguy]

163. Those were BEASTS

And yes, Klipschorns are still made in Arkansas AFAIK. The Japanese and Koreans LOVE them. Hook up a three-watt amp and blow down the building.

[LiberalArkie]

164. EV had the plans on how to cut the wood and all that. You could have someone build it for

you. That is why there are so many different looks. I remember the woofer took 2 people to lift it. It could pull your steel belt buckle off you when you picked it up.

But those and the VTT are why all boomer guys are deaf as a fence post.

When I went for my hearing test and to get my hearing aids, my doc looked at my chart and asked me "why kind of stereo do you listen to". I guess they can tell by the loss.

[hifiguy]

166. There are STILL cabinet plans available for those

floating around on the happy old Intertubes, though just what kind of hard-core maniac would actually build them escapes me.

30" woofers are very much as dead as the dodo.

[LiberalArkie]

168. Take a gander at this page

Really the subwoofers have taken in over. But I think that the 30" far surpassed the common sub woofers today.


They were rated at 104db/1w and rated to take 60 watts rms and 150 peak


http://boxcarcabin.com/30w.html


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electrovoice-EV-30-30-inch-woofer-low-frequency-transducer-for-PATRICIAN-800-/221982947024?hash=item33af36f6d0:g:UsgAAOSwvt1WRYHD


Only $2,999 ea

[Elwood P Dowd]

160. The Altec VOTTs are making a comeback.

Read Jeff Day's blog. He is now into highly modified VOTTs. Wonder if he will eventually replace his Westminsters with them?

BTW, in my pile of old audio mags I have TAS Volume 1 Number 1 Spring 1973. Only 36 pages and reviews of Phase Linear, Advents, HK Citation pre, and Dayton-Wrights. Bought it at a Hi-Fi store 42 years ago and subscribed for years until HP sold it.

[BlueJazz]

27. "Show of hands - who knows what these mean? Wow, flutter, rumble, vibration isolation...."

Oh yes, I remember friends (ok..and I ), would drool over a new turntable that had .02 % less flutter. We were like 14 year-olds that fall in and out of love every week.

But it was fun.

[SusanCalvin]

161. Oh, I had the best time picking out my gear

back when CDs were just a notion. I've still got all of it, too. Even the bucket-brigade reverb amp that I thought was cool at the time.

[BlueJazz]

174. "bucket-brigade reverb" Wow! I use a delay unit as part of a little home studio but (maybe worse)

,...I use it also when playing music for entertainment. It's a TC electronic 2000. It's almost like a addiction after you get used to it.
Quick thing. I use 2 Shure SM81's for sound but thought I might get something really cool like a Telefunken u-47.

Sweet Jesus! I didn't know they had gone up that much.
If you click on the link...sit down first.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/U47

[SusanCalvin]

175. Oh, but it's on sale...!

[jonno99]

132. Cool - yep all that brings back memories. I remember looking (salivating really)

at that Shure cartridge back in the day. I'd offer to buy it from you - if I had the money!

[SusanCalvin]

162. Heh.

Yep, I must admit that after this thread started I checked out current prices. Wheee-oooooo...!

[elias49]

11. Do you prefer I-Phone photos over true photography, too?

I wonder how many bands record music for playback over 2" speakers?
Ugh. Gimme vinyl!

[MohRokTah]

30. Yes, as a matter of fact I do.

Although a good digital camera is superior to an iPhone.

I'll never ever use film again.

[Atman]

28. Vinyl is a hipster fad.

I had over a thousand albums. Took up half the room. I rarely played any of them more than a few times because they're so fragile. I'd record them on the first play, then lock them away in the vault. I had top-of-the line Disc Washer equipment, cleaned them before every use. What a fucking pain in the ass. Now I have a 1000 watt system that plays all over the house, the music stored on my Mac, controlled by an app on my iPhone. And it doesn't skip when I walk across the hardwood floor.

My kids grew up with computers, using them since age two. One is now a programmer, the other an animator with a tv series in the works. But they were both blown away when I dug out the old "electronic" typewriter from the attic. They thought it was the coolest thing. This typewriter even had a memory, and you could erase up to the last period, and it auto-centered. Despite all of the cool stuff on their Mac laptops and desktops, they thought the typewriter was really cool. Same with vinyl...it's fun, it's nostalgic...but it really sucks by comparison.

[we can do it]

117. Similar experience here (without the kids). I agree fully.

[gollygee]

85. Totally agree

I did the whole vinyl thing in the 80s. Lived through it and didn't like it. Now I can have tons of music that fits on a device small enough to put in a pocket. And there are no skips or scratches.

[Arugula Latte]

192. Me too. I love the digital age.

[gvstn]

7. I still love vinyl.

For those that prefer digital, maybe now is the time to say, stop trying to compress to 700mb but go with the DVD format where you can get a much better bitrate for an album. You don't have to cut out the highs and lows that way.

[AngryAmish]

12. Income tax deduction, one hell of a function...

https://m.

Wait, it is on point.

[wilt the stilt]

16. you do realize that all the guitars you hear

use tube amps. OLD TECHNLOGY.

[KatyMan]

49. Unless the guitarist uses solid state amps

or DI. I've never had a tube amp (in 30 years of playing (not professionally)), mainly because they seem like a lot of trouble and I'm kind of scared of electricity, so I'd rather not have an amp I need to maintain.

[Glassunion]

69. I use both.

They each serve their purpose. The sound is markedly different between the two.

I have been considering the purchase of a solid state / tube combo, but $$$$.

[kysrsoze]

123. I completely agree on tube amp sound quality, though there you're going for opposite ends

What makes tubes amps so special (unless you like to play super-clean - and they're still excellent) is that the distortion is intentional and so well done (3rd and 4th order harmonics generated by the tubes make them sound so great). I went from solid state to tube and there's no comparison. I've been told there are excellent solid state guitar amps for a hefty price, but I've yet to hear one. Tube amps as a whole sound awesome, and i understand the technology enough to know that a good hifi tube amp will have outstanding fidelity and sound quality.

As for the medium, I love the warmth of vinyl, but CD and HD formats are also extremely good and devoid of mechanical sound influences (wow/flutter/scratches/dirt/cartridge and needle type, etc. I think what everyone who considers him/herself even an entry-level audiophile, is how much mp3s, and other lossy formats sound like garbage. 320kpbs is pretty good, but anything below 256kpbs is not very good. 128 is passable for your crappy earbuds or your bluetooth speaker, but high bitrates sound that much better on them.

There's really nothing like listening to a record, CD or HD Audio on a good system. I think they both have their advantages.

[Atman]

127. Hasn't then ALWAYS been the case?

Of course, it's always best to listen to the music on the best system. That's why we all had friends with the giant sound system, and we'd lay on the floor in front of the speakers as big as the monolith in "2001" and we'd do blow and just get lost in the music. Yes, it's always better to have an insane awesome audio set up. Of course it is. But if you're listening through ear buds or some crappy computer speakers, is this really an issue? Really?

[SusanCalvin]

17. As a codger, this thread makes me smile. nt

[Binkie The Clown]

19. What shocked me was when I put some 90 year old shellac 78s on my turntable.

These were discs that were carefully stored since the 1920s and 1930s and had no scratches. Is was expecting the proverbial "scratchy old 78" sound we've been told to expect. What I got instead was surprisingly good sound quality. Mono, of course. That was long before stereo, but amazingly good quality. (Warning, don't try this with your stereo LP cartridge. 78s take a needle that is shaped differently, and an LP needle will slop around in the groove and sound horrible.)

[Logical]

22. Lol, the nostalgia is what you like, the quality sucks. Nt

[pinboy3niner]

23. One word:

[Omaha Steve]

24. Try HD sound on an HD player

http://www.hdtracks.com/tales-from-the-realm-of-the-queen-of-pentacles

Available in Audiophile 44.1kHz/24bit

Title: Tales from the Realm of the Queen of Pentacles Artist: Suzanne Vega Genre: Folk Label: Super Ego Records Release Date: 2014

[wilt the stilt]

33. when i referenced my friend who has the $10,000 system

and does a lot of 44.1 HD, he was blown away by my systemdek and sumiko bluepoint. i put on a couple of km audiophile vinyl records and his comment was "the drums sound like drums" and he is a drummer.

[Omaha Steve]

35. IF you are going vinyl buy 1/2 speed master or direct to disk

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BEATLES-Abbey-Road-MFSL-audiophile-ORIGINAL-pressed-JAPAN-Ltd-Ed-HALF-SPEED-1-2-/171954518436


Abbey Road 1/2 speed will blow you away. You will need to use translate: http://www.amazon.de/Original-Recording-Half-Speed-Mastering-Schallplatte/dp/B00424SQSS

1/2 speed info: https://www.reddit.com/r/vinyl/comments/2v21h6/whats_the_deal_with_halfspeed_masters/

Direct to disk: http://www.sheffieldlab.com/ & http://capsulelabs.com/direct/

[hifiguy]

148. The original Mo-Fi Abbey Road

is a complete skullf**k. Even when comparing it to the all-analog version in the UK EMI/Parlophone "blue Beatles box" which is itself a wig-lifting version of that album. Regular American versions of Abbey Road are absolutely laughable compared to those. Same goes for the Pink Floyd catalogue.

[n2doc]

25. Yep. And the better the analog rig the better the sound n/t

[randr]

26. I think there is an indication of how our awareness has changed by our perception of music

Many of us raised on vinyl knew right away the sound of digital music was missing "something".
The quality got even worse as new formats made it easier to stream and essentially steal music off the web.
Having possession of enormous catalogs of music seems to be more important than actually being able to listen to and enjoy the artistry of musicians.
I welcome the return to vinyl and am glad people who love music are becoming more aware of the difference.

[Atman]

29. I think the key is ENJOYING the music.

If you enjoy it, if it makes you happy, if you immerse yourself in the artistry...who cares how it is recorded or played? If you love a painting, does it matter if you look at the image in a museum, through six feet of bullet-proof glass, as opposed to a digital image of it, or a poster print? If it makes you happy, just smile. Stop worrying about the delivery method.

[randr]

31. I agree with you, to a degree

but as an artist who works hard on every detail I hope those who appreciate my work will have the ability to see the detail.
Kind of like reading the whole novel rather than the abbreviated issue so to speak.

[Atman]

34. I get your point. But...

Last edited Tue Jan 12, 2016, 12:44 PM - Edit history (1)

The artist knows about how he mixes his paints, and how much time it took him to get just the right colors. The viewer gets to delight in the end result, and probably knows nothing about the types of paint which were used to create the image. Or, with a musician, the mixing board used to record and mix the sound. If the purpose is to make the artist happy, then stick by your guns and demand that people understand your entire creative process and only view/listen in a way that is faithful to the original ideas swirling through your head at the time of creation. OR -- release your creativity and just let people enjoy your work.

The vast -- VAST -- majority of people could not tell vinyl from digital if presented to them. Same with paintings/prints. You and me may get breathless at seeing "the original," but most people just enjoy what they're looking at or listening to.

The current vinyl trend is still bullshit. Why aren't people saying we should go back to wax cylinders, because that's the way music was originally recorded? Bullshit.

[winterwar]

38. The current vinyl trends is still bullshit?

What the hell does that mean?

[Atman]

45. Exactly what I said.

Hipsters grooving on retro-tech. I always had high-end audio equipment. I suspended my turntable from the ceiling to isolate it from floor vibrations. Really. But get serious...dragging a piece of carbon across a platter of old oil residue is cool, it's fun, it's hip. But to say that the sound is "better" is absolute nonsense. There is a lot of research about why we love the songs we listened to in high school. It's all psychological. We were getting laid. We didn't weigh 250 pounds. We didn't have a mortgage and a car payment. Everything was good. So, we look fondly on those daze, when everything was awesome. But that doesn't mean vinyl sounds better. It's old and nostalgic and anti-Apple streaming download digital Amazon, etc. I get all that. It doesn't mean it actually sounds better. The current vinyl trend is bullshit. The best thing about 33 1/3 rpm lps were the sleeves. Lots of cool graphics. And you can't clean the seeds out of your pot on an mp3 player.

[pangaia]

143. In my view, 'vinyl' sounds more like the real thing.

I grew up in the 1950's -'60s with records.

I remember exactly the day I first heard a digital playback of a digital recording. It was the Mahler 1st Symphony. It sounded nothing like the real thing. Analog recording and playback for me are, much closer.

I speak here mostly of classical music, but not entirely. I have played in symphonies, opera orchestras, chamber music groups, conducted and attended probably thousands of performances. To my ear digital recordings and playback sound nothing like the real thing. The optimum recording equipment, again to my ear, is analogue -TAPE,, yes tape. and the optimum playback equipment, to date, is a record.

[Atman]

150. You proved my point.

In my response which gave you the vapors, you were asked if I felt this way "all day long." As if I go around worrying about this petty bullshit. But here you underscore exactly what I stated; you have a fond recollection of the way music sounded when you first heard it as a child. Bingo. That is precisely what I posted.

Your definition of "the real thing" is what you first heard as a child. Just like mom's spaghetti and meatballs defines said pasta. Veering off into a scary tangent, that is why religion works. When you are a young, impressionable child, religion, spaghetti and meatballs, and yes, music, leave a lasting impression. You've demonstrated that here. The only "good" music is that which you first heard as a child.

As for me, my mind and my brain are wide open to new stuff. I love discovering new music, new art, new literature. I don't believe for one minute that everything stopped being good just because I got older. You might want to think about that.

[pangaia]

158. " you have a fond recollection of the way music sounded when you first heard it as a child"

What the fuck is that?

I spent 50 years playing music.

Man, you need to seek help.

[wilt the stilt]

39. I had a very good friend

who has since passed away. same argument "Cd's are better etc" I put on a Impulse collection of famous jazz stars on KM audiophile vinyl. If you play both to someone they immediately recognize the difference.. he simply could not believe the difference.

[randr]

42. The "purpose" is not to make the artist happy but to share the beauty that surrounds us

While it is true that the vast majority of people prefer white bread I would take issue with your assessment of other peoples abilities and tastes.
Not all technological advancements are for the better. Tap water, for instance was a step up from drinking from a well. Plastic bottled water is not an improvement. No audiophile would suggest that wax recordings are better than analog recordings and I did not suggest we go back to vinyl. To call a trend bullshit is to risk being called out as a troglodyte.

[Atman]

48. I will accept that risk.

My son bought his girlfriend a turntable for Christmas. It was rather amusing...the thing was like one of those close-and-play record players the teacher used to wheel in to the classroom. Clasps on the cover, which came off to reveal the speakers. We happened to have a box of old records, and we gave them all to them. They were thrilled. It all sounded like shit, but they thought it was the coolest thing ever. Again, it's a trend. It's fun, it's retro. But they're going to get tired of hauling around this suitcase turntable and a giant box of vinyl albums just to prove how hip they are.

[randr]

50. I have no doubt of your experience.

I hope one day you have the opportunity to hear a clean vinyl record played on a professional turntable with proper audio equipment and speakers.
It is like putting on prescription glasses for the first time.

[Atman]

56. "One day?"

I grew up on this stuff. I had all high-end equipment. I remember saving up my money, not to put gas in the car, but to buy a new cartridge for my turntable. As I stated in another post, I rarely played a new lp more than once or twice. I always recorded them after the first playing, then stashed them away. I bought the expensive "audiophile" master recording records. It's not like I don't know what vinyl is. I'm saying that vinyl is trendy. It's like steampunk for music. A digital system can capture music exactly as it came out of the instrument. How can you say it is more natural to drag a hunk of carbon across a piece of plastic? It is a sound we liked, it is a sound we grew up with. We recall it fondly, we got our first hand jobs to Led Zeppelin on vinyl, I get that. But that doesn't make the sound better. It only makes the sound different. It's basically the same reason why we all think our moms made the best spaghetti and meatballs...because it was the first spaghetti and meatballs we ever ate, and it was heaven! You compare everything else to mom's spaghetti and meatballs. Same with vinyl. You compare everything else to how great it was do have Mary Wilcox stroke your dick while you listened to CODA. Meanwhile, a digital recording, if uncompressed and properly mastered, is a purer recollection of the sound which came out of the artist's guitar, keyboard, whatever. Without the sentimentality of your youth, or the hipster groove of your local vintage vinyl store.

[pangaia]

145. Wow. Do you feel this way all day long?

Do you enjoy just going around pissing on people.
Must be very sad way to live.

I hope some day you feel happier.

[wilt the stilt]

53. so you have a junk turntable

and really crapy albums and you think it is going to sound good. I think I will go get a 2" bluetooth speaker with MP3's oh boy that sound will be good. better yet I'll buy a scratched cd and play it on a $9.00 toy cd player.

[Atman]

57. No.

You should read more of what I've posted in the thread. I have an entire hard drive devoted strictly to music, because I only rip or download in uncompressed formats. Takes up a lot of space. Combined with a 1000 watt surround sound amp, it sounds pretty damned good. And this coming from an old vinyl junkie with thousands of albums (I had a custom pressing of The White Album on white vinyl, Grand Funk Railroad on clear gold vinyl, and lots and lots of audiophile editions that cost me $25 even back in the seventies).

Now I don't have to sit in front of the "stereo" and choose which albums I want. I don't have to buy needles and cartridges. I can create a playlist from my desktop and beam it to any room in the house and control it with my iPhone. I can rattle the windows just like I could when I was 19 years old. Back then, the vibration from the speakers was so great that it would feedback into the turntable, so I suspended the turntable from the ceiling. That, and to help stop the skipping when walking across the hardwood floor.

Go ahead. Love your trendy hipster vinyl crap. The only thing I miss about vinyl are all the really cool special editions and ep's I had collected which are totally out of print now. And the pot I used to find when I unfolded a double album I hadn't played in years.

[randr]

96. So you would you grant that the vast vast numbers of people who could not afford your set up

would be listening to a lesser quality of sound thanks to all the digital trends.

[Atman]

98. Inferior sound? Like Justin Beiber and Taylor Swift?

Or do you mean tubes will make these two sound better and suddenly make them play their own instruments and write their own music?

Quality of sound is silly. If you like the sound, if it makes you happy, then even Justin Beiber can sound good. If Beiber is your standard, you already have low standards, so I doubt you'll be caring about the warmth of his sound.

[randr]

99. Now musical choice is something we can agree upon

[pangaia]

140. "The vast -- VAST -- majority of people could not tell vinyl from digital if presented to them.

And that is the problem.

Or, .. maybe they actually COULD tell the difference and it might be an eye opener.

[Atman]

147. Wow. Do you going around feeling like this all day long?

I don't even know what your other post was about. Apparently I'm not supposed to express how I feel I about a particular topic. I'm glad you've been given the opportunity.

[pangaia]

137. True, if you enjoy it, it makes you happy. great.

I will say, 1- I have never seen paintings at ANY museum anywhere in the world that are behind 6 feet of bullet proof glass. Or even 1", although they may exist.

And 2- there is a bit of a difference between looking at a digital image of Monet's Water Lilies, and sitting in front of the real thing in gallery 9 at MOMA. It just ain't the same.

[jeff47]

79. It really depends on the digital format.

mp3 is lossy, and you can crank up just how much is "lost" if you want to get the file size down. That easily results in bad-sounding files. Since small file size is very helpful with streaming and torrents ("steal music off the web&quot , you'll get a lot of over-compressed digital music going that route. Also, mp3 is very good in a relatively narrow range of pitch, so you really don't want to use it for music that covers a very wide range in pitch (such as Classical music).

Obviously, compression isn't an issue with analog, so you can't have this particular problem with analog. Instead there's a host of other problems, mostly centered around longevity of the media. As with digital, those problems can be mitigated if you know what you're doing and are willing to put forth the effort to mitigate them.

Since any music I listen to currently has to compete with things like Dora the Explorer on the TV, crappy lossy mp3s are good enough for me, for now.

[pangaia]

138. Agreed. I grew up with 'records in the 1950's and '60s.

What is this "vinyl' of which you speak. :&gt )

And no.. digital playback AND recording is NOT the same as analog. It just does not sound anywhere near the same.

[hunter]

32. So you like the way the sound is squished to fit it on the vinyl... that's okay.

Back in the age of electron tubes a huge amount of research went into creating the 33 1/3 long playing record.

By physical necessity the music is compressed and re-expanded to fit it on the record using very sophisticated analog circuitry, but in a manner that is often very pleasing to the human ear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

Sound engineers producing vinyl records usually have a great deal of musical talent, and their analog equipment is as much a part of making the music as any other musical instrument used in the performance.

[wilt the stilt]

37. all I know is that

I have a very good Rotel CD player and an old Ar turntable with a great Pickering xsv-3000($350 on ebay) cartridge. I own both the CD of Suzanne Vega's first and second albums and also van Morrison's Poetic Champions compose and all the vinyl sounds better and they are not even the high quality albums. I bought the CD's for my iphone.(I like convenience also). i do have a super audiophile "American Beauty" and it is great.

[Atman]

59. I have Suzanne Vega's first release, in two different formats.

Back in the old days, a lot of music mills would just rip a crappy vinyl edition onto to CD and sell it for $6. Or you could buy the official studio master, it cost more, but the sound was (is) incredible.

The funny thing is your choice of music for comparison. Try listening to classical music on vinyl. You hear more scratches, ticks, and pops, and lots of hiss, than you do music. Digital can eliminate that, where dragging carbon over plastic can't.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

103. The AR turntable is my favorite high fidelity component.

I have a few of them. I got my latest one off a trash pile a few blocks from where I live. This is truly a great device.

[hifiguy]

121. A great analog mastering engineer is essential

and they don't grow on trees. They are artists in their own considerable right. Mastering engineers like Bob Ludwig, Paul Stubblebine, Kevin Gray and the late, great Doug Sax know exactly how to get the most of the analog master tape into the grooves. And analog distorts 'softly" - going 1 dB over the "limit" doesn't result in catastrophic signal failure as it does with digital.

It is certainly possible to make stunningly great recordings in a purely digital realm,and I have heard plenty. but it is not one bit easier than doing it via analog and there's a lot more room for error in analog.

[hunter]

130. Exactly.

An art. Just like making or playing a violin.

The analog engineering was an intrinsic part of the music.

Which is why so many CD releases of music recorded for vinyl were crap.

[wilt the stilt]

155. The greatest producer of them all is

Tom Dowd. He is not an engineer but he knew more about music and everyone who ever worked with him loved him. As eric Clapton said "He knows way more about music than me"

[hifiguy]

159. Just to clarify. I am talking about the MASTERING engineer.

The engineer gets the sound on tape, the producer does the mix/effects/etc. Then the tape is finished and goes off to the mastering studio. A mastering engineer is responsible for transfering what is on the tape to a format that can be used to make, eventually, LPs.

The mastering engineer has to adjust EQ, loudness/amplitude and many other things to successfully and accurately transfer the artists' intent - as contained on the master tape - into a form that can be manufactured. It is something like a cross of voodoo and alchemy along with some hard engineering discipline. A ham-handed or sloppy mastering engineer can turn out a miserable LP no matter how skilled the musicians, recording engineer and producer. A Steve Hoffman or a Bob Ludwig cannot turn a sow's ear of a recording into a silk purse, but they can perform amazing rescue jobs in the mastering process and, better still, make an already good recording a great one.

http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-releases/how-to-master-a-record-noel-summerville-vinyl-dubplates-the-clash/

[hunter]

177. This

.

[winterwar]

36. Yes indeed

Anybody who says digital sounds better is not to be trusted

[Sunlei]

40. Music Is One Of Humanities Best Qualities

Thanks for the OP!

[whatthehey]

41. Several issues

1) Confirmation bias. I've rarely heard any advocate for digital or analog change their minds.

2) Comparing what to what? A recording mastered for vinyl which was later simply repressed onto digital, or a recording mastered for digital from the beginning?

3) The first play of the first track or the 20th play of the last track with its smaller real estate after having a diamond dragged across it a score (pun intended) of times?

4) What music? Talking about frequency separation and channel bleed on a wall of hard rock feedback or a pianissimo string quartet mean different things. That "warmth" of the analog former becomes "mush" in the analog latter

5) In blind tests - the only fair validation of a pure audio comparison, almost no-one can tell the difference consistently and what minor preference emerges is for digital.

[randr]

43. Please share with us your blind test evaluations

[Proud Liberal Dem]

44. Are "God turntables"

better than the average ones?

[LanternWaste]

46. They go to eleven.

They go to eleven.

[Glassunion]

65. Win +!

[Lizzie Poppet]

94. What a God turntable might look like:

[hifiguy]

110. My favorite, which I reviewed about three years ago

The Kronos turntable, made in Montreal.

Best turntable I've ever heard, and I've heard dozens of great ones:



Sounds more like analog master tape than any other table, and yes, I have heard original analog masters.

[bigwillq]

47. Yup. I love vinyl!

[vkkv]

51. Need help with a turntable? Look up Needle Doctor in MN. Not an advert, just being helpful..

I'm in Mariposa,CA and have no affiliation with them. But if you need a needle or cartridge..

That is the place to go. They are extremely helpful.

B&H is cheap, but don't expect any helpful communication.

I thought "God turntables" was a new brand by the wording!

Wouldn't "God, turntable sound freakin' good" be the proper grammar? I dunno...

[Heeeeers Johnny]

62. I've gone to them for replacement styli for older cartridges of mine.

Over the years, I've always been somewhat amused in a WTF? way with super high end audio systems and speakers
that cost well into six figures.

But when I first saw this, it brought WTF? to a whole new level...


[img][/img]

http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Goldfinger-Statement-Phono-Cartridge

[hifiguy]

115. It's really good,

but I prefer the Dynavector XV-1t, and it's FIVE GRAND less.

[happynewyear]

52. Bought an old BSR turntable on ebay a # of years ago

Cost was $25.00 and yes, the old vinyl still gets played!

Can't beat Dark Side of the Moon by Pink Floyd on it!

.... the lunatic is in your head

[thesquanderer]

54. I wonder...

...if you did a high quality (lossless) digitization of your vinyl Suzanne Vega album into your computer and played that back through your playback system, how that would compare (a) to the vinyl and (b) to the factory CD of the same album... it would be an interesting experiement!

[wilt the stilt]

55. lossless is the best of digital

and my Rotel CD is very good. I could buy a new D/A converter to improve sound. The Rotel had the famous Philips chip in it. that being a said if you want to make it equal to lossless than i probably should have a audiophole version of Suzannne Vega. I have played both the album and the CD and this regular album is better than the CD.

[Atman]

58. He would never admit that he liked the digital version.

He's into the experience. Read through his posts. It's not really about the sound...it's the hipster groove about putting that plastic disc on the expensive turntable. If blindfolded, he would not be able to tell which was vinyl and which was digital. It's more tactile than aural. It's cool to be in the groove, man.

[wilt the stilt]

63. what are you talking about

asshole. do you just insult people. i'm 64 so i grew up with vinyl. What kind of equipment do you have? i try to find deals. I believe the golden era of HiFi was the seventies and you can still pick up excellent equipment at a fraction of the cost. I like digital and as a matter of fact i was and am close to buying a D to A converter form schitt audio www.schitt.com

That being said I'm not being a hipster but you are being a dick.

[Atman]

67. The golden era of Hi-Fi.

Thank you. You made me smile.

My parents had an old Quasar TV with "works in the drawer," so the repair man could fix our tv right at our house instead of having to take it to the repair shop. The TV was as big as a Toyota Corona. Does that make it better?

I'm happy you love your vinyl. You believe in the "golden era" for the exact reason I mentioned above...all of our best memories took place in our teen years, usually to music. You remember the music to which you first got laid. You remember your prom. And now you still have a basement full of old vinyl, so it must be AWESOME!. No insult. I'm just stating my case. You might as well say that a car from the fifties is just as great a car from today. Technology marches on, and rarely does it go backwards. You have a fondness for the old vinyl discs from your youth, I get that. Really, I do. You have shelves full of them. You don't know what to do with them...might as well play them. That's cool. But don't try to tell us they are superior to modern technology. The very fact that you need shelves upon shelves just to store that stuff...well, that's a start. I have 6000 albums on a small device about the size of a cigarette pack, and I can play them anywhere throughout my house, or if I'm on the road, in a hotel room...whatever.

Yes, vinyl is cushy and fun and makes you feel good and gives you a throwback to when you didn't keep your teeth in a jar, and didn't have to wear special underwear. But it doesn't mean the old plastic discs sounded better.

Just sayin. I'm old, too. I am obsessed with music. Constantly trying to find new artists, new sounds. I'm not sitting in my basement playing my old Farrante & Teicher albums thinking I'm cool because it's on vinyl.

[wilt the stilt]

74. ypu actually listen to Ferrante and teichler

That is whom my parents listened to. ugh i have kids who just graduated college so I listen to all the new stuff. I'm not reminiscing about he good old days. that is a dream in your own head. Even my son gets the vinyl thing. My son is a pretty good musician and a very good writer of songs.
I have a very good friend who is a pretty famous studio musician in NYC. He is on Springsteen's last couple of albums and about 2,000 others. He has toured with the Stones and Clapton. He thinks my son is very talented and is hooking him up wit managers in NYC.

That being said all your amps that people use are TUBES. You know old fashioned tubes. Why you say. They fucking sound better and distort beautifully.

[wilt the stilt]

191. hey douchebag

I just bought Grateful Dead remastered American Beauty. It is not even close to my Mobile Fidelity version on vinyl. I bought it so i could put it on my iphone.

[MineralMan]

60. Which God?

I've tried the Yahweh model and the Shiva model, and rather prefer the Shiva. It has a nice angry sound quality, while the Yahweh model sounds sort of old school. I'll be checking out the Thor model soon, though.

[Glassunion]

68. Lemmy

[Heeeeers Johnny]

61. As someone who has roughly 10k albums in my collection...

imagine my disappointment when I found out that any 5.1/7.2 receivers manufactured in the last few years
(maybe even longer), do not have phono inputs, and I had to spend another $150.00 for a phono pre-amp.

[wilt the stilt]

64. one of the best phono preamps

was an advent 300. They can be had for $125 on ebay. It has the famous apt Holman phono section. Tomas Homlinson is THX.

[hifiguy]

66. Indeed they do,

and Rotel CD players are nothing to sneeze at. They always punch well above their price in terms of sonic performance. The only digital that truly captures the information density of a good LP on a well-set-up turntable is in the high-five or low-six figures - the top shelf stuff from Britain's dCS and the US' MSB.

I own a Sota Cosmos III w/Graham 2.2 arm and Dynavector XV-1S cartridge and will never give them up.

But then I also prefer tube electronics.

[Atman]

70. We have Instagram to make photos looks shitty...

Why not Phonogram to make our old digital music sound like it is being played from a warped piece of vinyl, with ticks and pops...you know, all that added "warmth." Just wondering.

[hifiguy]

72. A denoising system - people have actually thought about this -

would be overly subtractive as it's very difficult to separate noise from the musical signal.

Anyway, plenty of wonderful new and CLEAN used LPs are out there - tens oof krillions of them.

And there are always record-cleaning machines, which start around $200-300 and go all the way up to this little beauty, which automatically cleans an LP with micro-sonically generated bubbles of solution and dries the record all in the time it takes to get a beer and a sandwich:

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-40748-audio-desk-vinyl-cleaner-record-cleaning-machine.aspx

Seriously, a good cleaning machine can get 80-90% of the krudd off of any playable record unless it's been sanded.

[wilt the stilt]

75. I have a record doctor

genuine imitation nitty gritty. TUBES you say tubes. All your guitar Amps are TUBES wonder why. They fucking sound better.

[hifiguy]

77. As Eveanna Manley

of Manley Labs (and former wife of VTL's David Manley, may he RIP) says.

TUBES RULE!

And Eveanna KNOWS. She has lineage: Her dad was the guy who designed tube amps for Ampeg back in the 1960s. Yes, he designed the SVT. Nuff said.

[wilt the stilt]

83. the amp

is the reissue of the '65 Fender deluxe reverb. The most recorded amp ever. there are two, The Princeton reverb and the deluxe reverb. I bought my son a Gibson les paul for graduation. He is using a Bugera v22. It is the rave of the $350 tube amps. However when we plugged into that Fender the clean channel was unreal.

[hifiguy]

86. Tim Renwick, who was Al Stewart's lead player

back in the 1970s, (he later played with Clapton and on all the Gilmour-led Floyd tours as he was a boyhood buddy of Dave's) and Mark Knopfler made that sound their own. Whistle clean Strat through a vintage, all-tube Deluxe or Twin Reverb. Heaven.

Viz:

[wilt the stilt]

90. my friend is Joel Diamond

he toured with Clapton and the Stone. he was on the tonight show with Graham Parker and says touring with Clapton really boring for a keyboard player. he is also on a number of Springsteen albums. He i real deal. We sat next to each other in 7th grade. another friend of mine is Eddie Reyonlds. look up Lou reed and the tots. Eddie and I started guitar lessons together.

[Atman]

88. CHECK IN! Anyone under 50 years old!

[Maedhros]

128. You are needlessly dismissive and antagonistic to others.

Straight to the ignore list.

/bye.

[pangaia]

153. YES THEY DO!!

[Elwood P Dowd]

81. I own and listen to hundreds of LPs. None of them are warped and none of them have ticks

and pops. Unlike you, I learned how to take care of them 45 years ago. About 35 years ago I purchased a VPI Record Cleaning Machine and made them even better.

As for digital vs analogue debate, I also own hundreds of CDs and have tons of songs on my laptop and iPad. Also have a nice CD rig that cost close to $1,000 -- nowhere near the best but better than what most people have. For critical listening I still prefer vinyl. CD and computer music is for background or just playing some tunes while reading, doing house chores, entertaining friends, or surfing the 'net.

Finally, every audiophile I know that listens to and prefers vinyl does so not because of what you call "hipness" but because of the sound quality. They don't give a shit about "hipness" or cosmetics or status or what people think about them.

[wilt the stilt]

87. you got it

this guy is delusional. We all have good CD's and D/A converters and we uses our phones with decent headphones. However MP3's are pathetic. At least take the music off your CD's.

[hifiguy]

102. They're not at all hard to take care of.

Last edited Tue Jan 12, 2016, 07:56 PM - Edit history (1)

At least once you're no longer 22 and using them as beer coasters.

Some people must live like woodland creatures.

We audio nerds were into vinyl 20 years ago and many of us grew up with ONLY the LP as a music source. Long before the "hipsters" arrived on the scene. They were still playing with their TMN Turtles action figures back then.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. A guy is gushing over another guy's stereo and speakers...

he exclaims to the owner, "You must love your audio system!"

The owner replies, "No. I love music."

[hifiguy]

73. That's how you separate the sheep from the goats

in the audio hobby. The equipment geeks and the people who live for great music reproduced as closely as the state of the art allows.

The first person I wrote for in the high end press - the late Harry Pearson, founder of The Abso!ute Sound - once opined that there are too many people in the hobby "who come to worship the cathedral (equipment) rather than god (the music)."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

76. I heard that anecdote from the professor a Music Appreciation class in college.

Speaking of God.. It was a summer school class and full of kids who wanted Humanities credits and was fairly rowdy. The prof was pretty lenient but one occasion, the inmates were talking about the beach, or cars, etc. He was playing a record. In the middle of it and the disdain shown it by the talkers, he stood up, "SILENCE!! This is BACH!!".

I later joined him in the sentiment.

[hifiguy]

78. Love it.

Or as Charles once said to Hawkeye and BJ. "Please, gentlemen, Mozart."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

80. Worst quote ever.

From my ex boss. Just the two of us worked in an office with a stereo. We quarreled over the radio stations. I favored the local classical station. He favored country dance music. At some point, he said, "I don't like music that I have to listen to." Which pretty much summed up his life. He went to Paris on vacation and complained when he got back about the difficulty of finding a McDonalds. He thought reading books was a colossal waste of time.

[hifiguy]

82. You can lead a dope to the library or the concert hall

but you can't make them read or listen.

I literally cannot imagine my life without classical music and books, though I love all kinds of music: classic rock from the Beatles forward, to prog, English folk-rock, the Dead, to EDM, trance, ambient and electronica, post-war jazz, electro-pop and just about anything else. Except country. The only "country" artist I ever really liked is Emmylou Harris, and I lurves me some Emmylou. But she really is a genre unto herself.

That klown is lucky the Parisian gendarmerie didn't toss him into the clink for general boorishness. Loved the week I spent in Paris in '03 and I ate like a king at hole-in-the-wall cafes for 10-12 Euros every day. Seriously. Braised wild boar with a reduced wine sauce and potatoes, with orange-infused creme brulee for dessert, an appetizer and an amuse-bouche for $13E at a 20-table cafe across the street from our hotel in the Opera arondissement. I will remember that meal until I am too old to remember anything.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

92. Me too.

I love classical of all eras from medieval to modern. Folk, rock, and especially foreign/world music. From mariachi to middle-eastern.

I never made it to Paris but have traveled to Japan & Taiwan (courtesy of the USMC). And, Canada, Mexico and the UK. The pastries and cheeses of the UK are particularly memorable. We rented cottages in the country villages and towns for a week at a time and shopped in the little shops for food. Both my wife and I are 2nd generation Brits/Irish and it was like "going home". The worst part was coming back.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

105. I can't resist. I have to post the link to the thread at DU about Harry Pearson.

Harry Pearson, Founder of Absolute Sound, Dies at 77

[steve2470]

89. A bit off-topic...

I'm happy for you that you can enjoy vinyl with your excellent equipment, sincerely. I bought some Sennheiser headphones recently that are excellent but not top-of-the-line. I listen mostly to EDM music where there's no instruments. I'm not sure I could honestly tell the difference if I bought top-of-the-line headphones. I live in a condo, so speakers are really not practical for me.

Ah, to be really young again with no age-related hearing loss and tinnitus (which many of us have)! *sigh* My hearing is still pretty good, all things considered. I can hear up to 14 kilohertz or so.

Enjoy your vinyl.

[Atman]

91. Courtney Barnett.

It almost hurts to post this. It forces me to rethink everything. Courtney Barnett has a Grammy nomination for Best New Artist.

A Grammy? Really? Aren't those for Taylor Swift and FM Radio bubble gum crap?

But Courtney Barnett kicks ass. Like a girl Neil Young, except she actually knows how to write great lyrics. Insane guitar work.

Who says there is no good music since they were in high school? This girl brings it home.

Gosh...if only she used tubes, she'd be even better.

[Lizzie Poppet]

97. She's brilliant.

Can't really say it any better than that.

There's so much good music being made right now. I'm a bit of a metalhead, and it amuses me no end to think that one of the absolute best metal songwriters* ever is a mid-20's Japanese woman, Mitsuru from Bridear.

* (and half of one of the best dual guitar attacks I've ever heard...serious stuff...played by her and Misa in perfect sync)

[wilt the stilt]

107. so why do all the professional guitarists

still use tubes.

[Atman]

116. I don't know. I'm not a professional guitarist.

I posted about Courtney Barnett. I couldn't tell if she was using tubes. But she rips it apart on the guitar. Where are the tubes? Inside her guitar? In the mixing board? On YouTube? What am I missing? Her music is fucking hot, and I don't care whether or not she has tubes. She brings it.

[hifiguy]

119. Tubes are in the amplifier.

and are responsible for the gain added to the signal. And guitarists - and hifi people - love tubes for one big reason. Tubes, when overdriven, or even driven moderately hard, generate distortion, just as solid state devices do. The difference? Tubes generate even-order harmonics, which are musically consonant - a second order harmonic is an octave above the note, for example.

Solid state generates odd-ordered harmonics in similar situations of use. Odd-order harmonics are extremely displeasing to the ear-brain system and are not consonant with the harmonics of music.

And that's why, 99 times out of 100, tubes sound more "musical" and "coherent."

[Atman]

122. Remember when amps gave thd ratings?

"Total Harmonic Distortion." That was a key figure when buying an amp or even a stereo set up. You never see that anymore. It's all digital.

[hifiguy]

126. There's another reason.

The massive amounts of negative feedback (30-50 dB) in the circuits of those big solid-state amps of the 1970s and 1980s to get those superficially impressive THD speca made them sound dead and just plain crappy; the feedback sucked the life out of the music . A tube audio - not guitar - amp is usually rated for power of X watts from n Hz to q kHz at 1-2% distortion. The simple fact is that the human ear "hears around" the type of distortion produced by a vacuum tube, but not that produced by a silicon device.

Best practice for modern tube high-fidelity amplifiers is ultra-high quality coupling transformers and minimal global negative feedback, as in 1-3 dB. And many manufacturers, VTL prominent among them, allows for adjustment of the feedback in discrete steps to match best with the speaker you pair the amplifier best. And yes a change from 1 to 3 dB in feedback is wildly audible.

[Mnpaul]

183. It's still there

Total Harmonic Distortion - 10 percent
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/yamaha-650w-5-1-ch-4k-ultra-hd-and-3d-pass-through-a-v-home-theater-receiver-black/6078137.p?id=1219658502326&skuId=6078137

with ratings like that, I wouldn't talk about it either. My surround processor amplifier is at .008% and my amps are around .04%

[Atman]

186. That's insane!

We used to think even .08% was crap. 10%? That's absolutely amazing.

[Elwood P Dowd]

134. There are a few exceptions

such as the newer Nelson Pass Class A stuff from Pass Labs and First Watt. Wish I could afford one to try, but those years are long gone.

Remember back in the day when Bill Johnson went from tubes to solid state at ARC? I bought a D52 but eventually went back to tubes with a Conrad Johnson. Bill later re-introduced a tube line yet again.

[hifiguy]

135. Yup, Nelson's stuff - I reviewed his XP-25 two box phono stage

a couple of years ago, is supremely musical. All of it. As is the Swiss and insanely expenseive even by high-end standards FM Acoustics gear and some of Vladimir Lamm's SS stuff. There is good SS gear out there but it is never cheap or easy to find. On eof the best sounding amps I ever heard, period, was SS - Technical Brain from Japan. Two little problems with them. Kurosawa-san builds each pair by hand himself and can do about 25-30 pairs per year. Second they cost $85,000 per pair when they are available. But if you want Harry Winston jewelry you pay Harry Winston prices, cos there's only so much of it to go around.

Bill J realized his mistake quickly. One of my oldest friends is the QC/developmental listener at ARC. That's literally his job - sit and listen to Audio Research gear all day for evaluation purposes. Bill admitted in later life he goofed, but it sure didn't take him long to go back to tubes.

[Elwood P Dowd]

142. Then I guess you remember the ultimate audio "Mad Scientist" Bob Fulton.

He and Bill Johnson used have listening sessions together and both were located up there in the frozen tundra along with Jim Winey at Magnepan.

Bob was the first guy to explain colors to me while listening to music. Still have a pair of his FMI 80 speakers in the bedroom. The company just disappeared when Bob passed.

[hifiguy]

144. Never met him, but there are far more 'Bob stories' up here

than there are fish in our 10,000 lakes. One of the great characters in the history of the audio industry.

[Elwood P Dowd]

189. So true, and he built some damn fine sounding speakers back in the day.

He would always be wearing a suit, and the coat pockets were usually full of tools, caps, connectors, and anything else he might need to tweak something. He also made some nice live recordings, a record mat, moving coil cartridges, Fulton Gold & Brown speaker cables, and interconnects.

[wilt the stilt]

136. you honestly did not know professional guitarisst use tubes

and you are in this discussion? immediate disqualification. all those albums you listen to and all those guitarists who are recorded where using tube amps.

[Glassunion]

93. DU Rec on this thread... Not everyone seeing eye to eye, but way better than a porn thread.

[steve2470]

100. +1 nt

[maxsolomon]

95. It's likely your Suzanne Vega album was pressed in the Dark Ages of CDs, the '80s.

New CDs are vastly superior; they're not harsh, the definition and separation are more pronounced. I buy used CDs pretty frequently, but I always look at the fine print to see when it was pressed. I leave anything pre-90 sitting in the racks. A Zeppelin CD from the mid-80s sounds like crap. The Remasters will blow your mind.

That said, I have 3000+ Vinyl LPs.

[wilt the stilt]

106. I did buy the neil young remasters and I have bought other remasters.

so i know they are better. I would like to buy the Neil Young audiophile vinyl releases. I'm sure they are killers.

[Atman]

120. If you put your head in a trash bag...

...and blow it full of weed smoke, then have a cat sit on your head, you might get the true Neil Young experience.

I've seen Neil several times. With Sonic Youth, a few times with Crazy Horse, even once at Tanglewood with just Neil and a couple dozen guitars. I love Neil Young. I grew up with Neil Young. But seriously...he'd sound better on vinyl? Really? Neil did everything he could to make sure he sounded like shit. He recorded in basements, in front of fireplaces, in garages. His low-fi sounds better on vinyl? You're off the rails. He'd probably sound better on an eight-track in my old Camaro.

[wilt the stilt]

125. Your nuts

and beligerent. here is neil on Pono

[wilt the stilt]

129. Neil is your hero

here he is on vinyl

http://consequenceofsound.net/2009/11/neil-young-reissues-first-four-records/

[hifiguy]

108. Oh, gads, you are so right.

Those first couple of generations of CDs were so bright and grainy it was like flossing your ears with barbed wire. I kid you not, I could only listen to half a CD without getting a blinding headache. And I had a pretty good system - Sony CD player, Audio Research preamp, Counterpoint amp and Magnepan speakers.

The Zappa reissues of the late 1980s were the first rock CDs I could actually listen to straight through, but FZ was always picky about sound.

[wilt the stilt]

111. peaches en Regalia

[hifiguy]

112. Here ya go!

[wilt the stilt]

114. one of the great songs

I saw zappa twice. Once with Flo and eddie and another time in'89 and he ended the show with "whippin Post"

[wilt the stilt]

124. My real thing is live concerts

I have been to probably 250 live concerts starting with the Young rascals. I ended up seeing almost everyone including going to woodstock. I live the excitement of a live act. I saw Duane allman 4 times, the who play Tommy, Janis Joplin. My only regret is i didn't go see band of Gypsy's at the Fillmore(had tix). I did see Led Zepplein's second tour in the U.S. at the Singer Bowl.

[Hoyt]

141. I love live sound, and recorded concerts. There is a ton of wonder digital stuff recorded live that

would not be available on vinyl. Used to buy a lot of vinyl bootlegs, digital is infinitely better for "bootlegs" or you tube and more available. Also, the video aspect adds a lot.

I miss my old tube analog system, but am quite satisfied nowadays with a relatively inexpensive digital system and decent earphones.

I am a purist when it comes to playing musical instruments.

[Elwood P Dowd]

109. You are spot on with that.

I like to have an actual physical copy of the music on both LP and digital. A few weeks ago I somehow lost my CD version of Van Morrison "Moondance". Probably left it in my car and it grew legs like some of the others in there. Anyway, I found a used copy at a store for $2.99 and put that in the player at home. It was a garbage sounding 1980s pressing.

[wilt the stilt]

190. I just bought American Beauty(the dead) remastered

and honestly it is not close to my mobile fidelity record.

[we can do it]

113. Sounds good unless there is dust, warped or worn out records.

[Warpy]

118. Well, you don't get the dynamic range you get with CDs

but I agree there is something special about analog sound that digital just doesn't have and no, I'm not talking about the hiss.

I still have a turntable and I still prefer analog for vocal music like opera. Plus, a lot of my more intensely weird music just isn't available on CD. Vinyl is still cheaper to produce.

[killbotfactory]

184. In theory, CD's have more dynamic range.

In practice, it's a crapshoot depending on if the cd is mastered to actually sound good, or sound loud on cheap stereos.

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

[steve2470]

131. my last off-topic I promise....

This reminds me of the old discussion around transistor versus tube amps. Tube amps get tons of love, it seems.

[wilt the stilt]

133. tubes tend to have better mid range

at least in the older stuff. New tubes probably have a better bottom end now. i had a dynaco st 70 and it was kind of flabby. I now have a transistor amp for the bottom end. The real sound comes from the source and the preamp is really important. Guitarists use tubes because most of their sound is midrange. What you get from tubes is a glorious midrange where the majority of music is.

[hifiguy]

152. Today's best tube amps

are amazing and yield nothing to solid-state. Audio Research and VTL make behemoth amps - as in 700-800 watts per channel and are priced accordingly. But even smaller tube amps, from those companies and others, have tight, well-defined bass, extended and airy natural sounding top end and still that glorious midrange only tubes can give.

Perhaps the best sounding amp I can think of is the Absolare Passion 845 push-pull power amplifier ($40,00/pair). http://www.absolare.com/pushpullAmplifier.html "Only" 85 watts per channel. but hand made with the finest parts, tubes and everything else. Put it on a reasonably efficient, extremely high-quality speaker (Wilson Sashas or the Rockport Altair/Cygnus come to mind) and go directly to musical heaven. Nothing I have heard brings more of the Real Thing into the listening room, with either LP or top-quality digital.

[wilt the stilt]

167. my friend has Nelson pas 100.8

He tells me they are incredible.

[hifiguy]

169. I've not heard one thing from Pass Labs

I do not like and respect, a LOT.

[wilt the stilt]

171. so my friend has really nice gear

and he can't believe these amps. after he heard my turntable he spent 2,000 on a VPI. I have one of those old Adcom's that was a nelson pas design.

[Elwood P Dowd]

176. Wish I could afford a 100.8. That .8 series is mindblowing good from

what a friend tells me. He got the 30.8 because his speakers are so effcient that's all the power he needs. It is also the first solid state amp he has owned in over 20 years.

[hunter]

149. Tube amps are very forgiving.

That's a hard scientific fact.

[pangaia]

156. Agreed all the way...

Tubes rule,, as I think you said somewhere else in this thread.

I've been using the same Thorens TD-135 turntable since.. what 1968 or so? it is perhaps not the BEST BEST but... very good.

I listen 95% to classical music..and am/was a classical musician.... digital playback is NOT what the real thing sounds like..

[hifiguy]

165. Those Thorens tables were built to run forever.

Damn near literally. I had a TD-125 AB Mk III from 1973 to 1992 - it had been modded with a new plinth and damping, and a new tone arm - then sold it to buy a SOTA Star Sapphire. I have zero doubt it is still happily spinning away somewhere. Change the belt every few years and you're set.

[pangaia]

170. I am not 'hi-fi' afficionados(i) like quite a few other folks here, you included,

but I still use a Marantz Pre-amp and MacIntosh Power amp plus 2 Klipschorns from-- about the same time as my Thorens..

I can blow my brains out any time I want.

Der Rosenkavalier, anyone...

[hifiguy]

172. ANY Mac amp on Klipschorns

and you can go into the demolition business.

Mahler or Wagner must rattle the neighbors out of their beds. Ho-yo-to-ya! indeed.

"Jamie want big boom." - Jamie Hyneman.

[pangaia]

179. Back around 1980 or so I lived in a fairly respectable

residential neighborhood in a city. Houses...

But there was one place a few houses away that maybe twice a summer had a party. rock 'n roll for all to hear, whether we wanted to or not... like until 2 am..

We always knew when it was coming.. decorations etc... So one year several of us got together and decided that if they were still going at midnight. we would crank up whatever we liked, stick the speakers in the windows and let them have it. We warned the neighborhood.. no complaints.

So midnight comes, party still going on and I started it. Shostakovich 5th. last mvt. Cranked it up and ran down the street. Must have been 6-7 houses blasting everything you can imagine. But me with my Klipschorns and Mac .. At the other end of the block I could hear it over everything else.

That was the last party.

OH, forgot.. we called the police that afternoon and told them what was up. They were on our side. In fact a squad car cruised by.. :&gt ))

[Elwood P Dowd]

173. Paul Klipsch used to say.....

something like this, "What the world needs is a good 5 watt amp". A 5-watt SET into a K-Horn is still enough power to make your ears bleed with 110 dB SPLs.

I too owned a Thorens turntable back in the 1970s before moving on up to a Linn Sondek. Hope you have tube type Mac and Marantz. Back in those days they just sounded better to me than the early solid state units from those companies. The early solid state didn't sound bad but just not quite as good as the tube units they replaced.

[pangaia]

178. I love my Klipsch.. yes tube amps...

I Think a marantz 7C and mac MC240. Is that right?

Shows you how much I know, eh. I just know they are kick ass..

[Elwood P Dowd]

182. Outstanding products, the 7C and MC240.

Bring big bucks today on the used market, plus there are updates with more modern parts to make them even better. The caps in those units usually need replacing every 20 years or so, but you probably know that.

[wilt the stilt]

181. systemdek IIX

is a copy of the linn sondek lp12. There is one in Atlanta's craigslist right now for $250 with a linn basic tonearm on it. Mine has a profile arm. This table is a steal. I did a couple of cool things recently. I bought a dynaco st 150 and a pat 5. I also own a van alstine rebuilt Dyanaco pas 3 with a belles amp.

anyway what we did was changed the input capacitors (source) on the st 150. we also changed the opamps on the pat 5. we also put in all new capacitors. When we finished my tech was begging me to buy it off of me. We are thinking of taking it to the Atlanta hiifi club because it sounds so good.
Frank Van alstine told me what opamps to put in. they are ad 845s. It is a shockingly great system.

I had a guy who took a good look at the schematic. The st 150 is pretty modern by design but it misses the mirroring of today's amps.

I bought a dynaco st 150, pat 5 and the tuner with the wood case for around $250. the wood case alone on ebay gets $100.
I have an AR turntable that I bought before turntables got popular again for around $125 and a pickering xsv-300 which is the same as a stanton 881s. I probably paid $75. for it.They now going for $350 on ebay if you can find one. it is just a great cartridge.

I paid 175.00 to redo the preamp and the amp. I just recently bought a pair of Pioneer spf522 which are designed by Andrew Jones(paid $150 used)

so i have a really good system for less than $800.00 If you know what you are buying you can get some really nice stuff. Oh yeah i have a rotel CD player that I paid $150 for.