Two German transgender women 'are STONED in the street' by a gang of three North African teenagers

[smirkymonkey]

in Dortmund who said 'such people' should be killed

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3402706/Two-German-transgender-women-STONED-street-gang-three-North-African-teenagers-Dortmund-said-people-killed.html

Three men of North African origin arrested for alleged assault on two women
Transgender victims said the men threw stones at them and attacked them
Attackers fled the scene when a police intervened near Dortmund station
Dortmund police have confirmed three men are in custody and no one was seriously injured in the incident last Monday

Elisa, 37, and Jasmin, 50, said that the men spoke to them in Arabic and said they needed to stone 'such people', according to the German media organisation Breitbart.
'Within seconds we were tossed around…and they took stones from a gravel bed on the corner and threw them at us,' said one of the alleged victims.


Speaking on the German broadcast channel Sat 1, one of the victims spoke of their disgust of the nature of the attack.
'This is barbaric what they have done, they were barbarians!' said Jasmine.
Following a police investigation, it was revealed that two of the teenagers are known to police for past offences.
The three North Africans have been put into custody, according to a police statement.

[world wide wally]

1. Not much difference between Sharia Law and the religious right here in the good ol' USA

[jonno99]

2. Sure - we had in stoning in our town just last week...

[cheapdate]

3. No, we pass laws to arrest and jail people for moral crimes. Totally different.

[jonno99]

4. ? you mean as opposed to "immoral crimes"? I'm not following...

[cheapdate]

7. Moral crimes as opposed to property crimes and crimes of violence.

The idea of legislating morality is not really a far-fetched concept, even though there might be disagreement over what gets included.

Sure, it could be argued that all crimes have a moral dimension, but I think it's pretty straight-forward that some have a greater moral dimension than others, such as laws relating to women's sexuality.

[MillennialDem]

8. Yes because trans women are never assaulted or murdered in the US

http://www.advocate.com/transgender/2015/07/27/these-are-trans-women-killed-so-far-us-2015

[jonno99]

10. Obviously it is true and very sad that it happens here in the US. However,

I was addressing the false idea that the previous poster was trying to make - that there is some sort of moral equivalency.

Other than the freaks at Westboro Baptist, I've not seen any mainline US church that advocates stoning - of anybody.

[cheapdate]

18. I think you give short shrift

to the ideas just behind the words of many mainline evangelical leaders. I think you underestimate the sincerity and full extent of what lies just behind their calls for a return to "Biblical values". I think you underestimate the full extent of the fundamentalism that lies just barely unexpressed in the words of someone like Pat Robertson and his ilk.

I think you underestimate the nature of the "Christian Dominionist" movement, and what kind of society they desire in their heart of hearts.

[jonno99]

28. I have no doubt that you are correct. But neither have I heard of any so-called leaders

advocating violence against "unbelievers".

[cheapdate]

55. There are without a doubt dramatic outward differences

between Muslim fundamentalists in North Africa and Christian fundamentalists in the United States.

But I would argue that the commonality between fundamentalists of all religious stripes is more salient than the particular differences.

[world wide wally]

22. Would it really matter to you if you were stoned to death or just "humanely" beaten to death?

[jonno99]

25. Again, I must have missed the news where church members in the US were beating

folks to death on a regular basis.

[world wide wally]

36. Read it for yourself

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/11/more-transgender-people-have-been-murdered-2015-any-other-year-record

[jonno99]

40. I'll try again. That these deaths occured is horrific,

but the focus in this (your) sub-thread was on the religious.

Please, which church group was participating in these deaths?

[world wide wally]

41. You are the only one that mentioned "church"

I only said the "religious right". And if you think that isn't a big part of it, maybe you are just a little naive.

[jonno99]

45. Fair enough. So in the end you consider attacks like

those in Germany not particularly newsworthy because we have just as much of a problem from members of our "religious right".

Is that your position?

[world wide wally]

48. Not even close

Just pointing out the "moral equivalency" you asked for

[Dretownblues]

78. How about these?

How about Uganda, where anti-gay legislation is still a very real possibility and lead to the rape and beatings of gay people. Guess who is pushing these laws and ideas, American Pastors and congressmen.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/03/scott-lively-anti-gay-law-uganda

[MillennialDem]

35. Many christians have advocated killing all gay people or trans people. Many more have advocated

making it illegal to be gay or trans. And it's more than just WBC.

It may be a bigger problem with people from north africa or the middle east, but claiming it doesn't happen in the west / christian countries is nonsense.

[jonno99]

38. Do you not see the contradictions - even in your own post?

You state: "many have advocated killing...many more have advocating making it illegal..."

And who are these "many"? Are they church leaders? Are they people of any influence?

I will ask again: please direct me to the news where church members in the US/west are killing/maiming/burning/driving from their homes - the apostate - on a regular basis.

Yes, to say that "it" doesn't happen in the west is nonsense. However, when you state that it is a bigger problem in NA or the ME, it should be understood that it is bigger on MANY orders of magnitude.

[MillennialDem]

49. Well before I go down this rabbit hole, how many would it take for you to be

satisfied? And I never said it wasn't a much more significant problem in the NA and ME.

Also, there are numerous guys who advocate beating up a trans woman for "tricking them" or KILLING her or saying it should be rape and prosecuted.

Which is of course nonsense, because it's a "crime" that can't be proven (how would you know she didn't tell him? Or she didn't tell her for that matter)

[LanternWaste]

114. Sentiments are the same, the degree of violence or of acting on those sentiments is different

Sentiments are the same, only the degree of violence, or of acting on those sentiments, is different.

However, I would consider anyone naive who believes that the agenda of a large part of the religious right would not entertain religious law in the US as practiced in the Middle East, any more than I would consider the same in regards to the sub-literate who denies racism is a major problem in the country simply because we have so few lynchings anymore.

Additionally, as you are in the habit of listening to people via a literal method rather than inferring obvious dog-whistles, then I have no doubts you would indeed, fail to hear or see any of that which you so vociferously deny.

That said, when one states such and such as a bigger problem, your literalism trips you up... as the severity of a moral or ethical problem is not predicated on numbers.

[jonno99]

120. "the agenda of a large part of the religious right would...entertain religious law in the US" If

anything is a dog-whistle statement, it is the above.

If it is true that a "large part" would entertain religious law then there should be a copious amount of recent opinion pieces on this subject.

So, providing a link from any credible source on the subject shouldn't be hard...

[Bluenorthwest]

11. And yet the one does not mitigate the other. When these murders are reported in the US, no one

on DU says 'Yes, because this never happens in Europe' as if horrible things in one place excuse those in another. Another thing I never see in DU threads about attacks on trans people is you speaking out against it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027089156
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027088632

[840high]

59. Gee - did I miss a stoning

in my town?

[CBGLuthier]

76. Well one huge fucking difference is the religious a set of laws currently being used anywhere

Nice try.

[yeoman6987]

77. You sure know how to take the focus off a story

Who is that helping?

[melman]

82. If this story were about the religious right in the good ol' USA

would you jump in and make a post about Sharia?

[Democat]

85. The very first reply is so typically DU

Blame America or claim America is just as bad. DU did not used to be this bad.

[sibelian]

92. Some people are slapping old patterns willy nilly onto new phenomena.

That particular problem's been going on at DU for a while, but I did NOT expect to see "Christians are nasty too!" cropping up during a round of stories about hundreds of women being sexually molested.

[smirkymonkey]

95. Exactly! So predictable.

[Lizzie Poppet]

103. It's become like bad parody around here.

False equivalencies, tu quoque fallacies, and mental gymnastics that, were they in physical form, would garner Olympic gold medals...

[pampango]

5. The Daily Mail (FOX News - UK), quoting a report from RW rag - Breitbart - does a great job

of finding every sin committed by Muslims.

THREE (count them -3) - teenage boys (previously known by the police from past offences) committed a crime. The teenage boys were arrested.

I understand why the RW press searches for every thing that any Muslim does wrong. Why are we? If they were 3 teenage Black males arrested for a crime, we would not be indicting an entire group for the actions of a few teenagers.

Following a police investigation, it was revealed that two of the teenagers are known to police for past offences.

The three North Africans have been put into custody, according to a police statement.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

83. Don't be daft,

the DM is not right wing. The same thing is being reported on here, so does that make DU right wing?

[totodeinhere]

97. This story has been reported in many news outlets, not jsut RW.

What would you have us do, ignore the story because the perpetrators are Muslims?

[hifiguy]

6. Germany is in for very rough times.

This is ultimately a clash of civilization and barbarism.

[madville]

19. The German anti-immigrant right-wing

Has got to be loving this stuff, their predictions are coming true or at least getting a ton of attention. The next election cycles will be very interesting there.

[hifiguy]

20. And the left hides its head in the sand

in the name of political correctness.

The left - everywhere - has to face up to this issue, and damned soon.

[Dems to Win]

37. YES

I'm still searching for a good old fashioned angry fist pumping take no prisoners feminist RANT about 500 women sexually assaulted at the train station of one of Europe's great cities, over a period of 6 hours, and the police were there but failed to call in enough reinforcements to put a stop to it.

Nothing but silence from Katha Pollitt, Amanda Marcotte, Joan Walsh, Susan Estrich.

Haven't heard a word from Hillary Clinton.

Cowed into silence by political correctness. Mustn't say anything that might be echoed by Donald Trump, even if it is true.

If Trump is the only leader to take notice of mass sexual assault in the streets of Europe by Arab men, the only one to express outrage, the only one to vocally take the reasonable position that we must not allow it to happen in the US, then I suspect the Feminists for Trump demographic will only grow. And yes, they do exist. I've run into some on Twitter.

[AngryAmish]

52. Hillary definitely denounced it.

There is no way a woman running for office could not.

[Dems to Win]

53. Do you have a link?

I've looked, found nothing.

[smirkymonkey]

43. Thank YOU!

Can't stress this enough.

[840high]

60. ...^ that

[pampango]

23. The anti-immigrant right wing all over Europe (and the US for that matter) is loving this.

Trump wants to ban all Muslims from the US. None of the republicans want to accept any refugees. The Democratic candidates are taking a totally different approach. Will they continue to do so?

It will be interesting to see what the next election cycles bring in Europe and the US. Will the far right continue its apparent momentum? Will the left stick to its policies and do better than expected? Or will the left tack to the right and adopt some of the policies long favored by the right in the hopes of stemming the rights apparent electoral momentum?

[Kelvin Mace]

9. Then prosecute them as you would

if they were attacked by criminals from any other country.

[FrodosPet]

111. When you prosecute a crime, don't the prosecutors bring up the motive?

Isn't the key to preventing people from doing horrible things understanding why they do those horrible things?

[Kelvin Mace]

112. Well, the motive seems to be because they were horrible, violent bigots,

not because they were "North African". Dick Cheney should go to trial because he is a war criminal, not because he is from Wyoming.

[FrodosPet]

113. The culture they grew up with encourages those kinds of attacks

So their geographic origin, and the repressive ultra-conservative culture, is part of the motivation on why they thought it was OK to throw rocks at two innocent people.

[LanternWaste]

115. Maybe you should then ask males why they rape and do these horrible things.

Maybe you should then ask males why they rape and do these horrible things.

[FrodosPet]

118. Damned straight we should

DAMNED straight we should!

[Kang Colby]

12. Why do DUers trip over themselves

excusing Muslim behavior? Citing the horrific treatment of women and homosexuals in the Muslim world, I find it ridiculous that folks continue with this charade.

[smirkymonkey]

13. Thank YOU!

[Coventina]

16. LOL!

[Aerows]

50. Oh my.

*mic drop*

[Quantess]

90. I still harbor a grudge against the "sexy" pinup green M&M girl.

[FLPanhandle]

15. If they were a group of Klan members, then DU would be happy to condemn them all.

Muslims...uh oh. Either ignore it, or be a hypocrite, or acknowledge that some cultures are the antithesis of liberal principles.

Many here (and they are obvious) are hypocrites when it comes to Muslims.

Me, I view Islamic culture the same way I view Klan culture. Neither culture is something a liberal should be making excuses for.

[Aerows]

51. You know, that is a fantastic point.

Thank you for making it. I haven't considered it in those terms, but you are absolutely correct.

Thanks FLPanhandle (and hey, I'm not far from you and on the Gulf Coast myself, so I absolutely know exactly what you mean!).

[pampango]

17. I have seen no one excuse this criminal behavior. I have seen many defend innocent refugees.

Among the indirect victims of Cologne are the many migrants who would not dream of assaulting anyone, and who came to Germany seeking safety for themselves and their families. Four refugees have drafted an open letter to Mrs Merkel in which they express their support of women’s rights and their shock at the assaults. They are handing the letter round to collect signatures. Many refugees and German Muslims fear being tarred with the same brush as the offenders."

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21688418-ultimate-victim-sexual-assaults-migrants-could-be-angela-merkels-liberal-refugee

As liberals we should admit when bad things occur and punish criminals without stereotyping and punishing entire groups of people, most of whom have done nothing wrong. Collective punishment is not our thing. It's more of a right wing thing.

The vulnerable should be protected - women, poor, minorities, refugees, immigrants, etc.

[Kaleva]

24. Great effort is made to redirect though.

One can see it in this thread.

Don't look at that! Look at this instead!

[Ex Lurker]

26. Yep. NT

[pampango]

29. Most, not all, of these criminals have been recent arrivals but there are hundreds of thousands

of recent arrivals who have committed no crimes and have condemned the crimes that have been committed.

"Stereotyping entire groups of people" based on the actions of a tiny percentage of that group should never be a liberal behavior regardless of which group of people that is.

[pampango]

31. Well said. n/t

[LanternWaste]

117. Males overall, yes?

"I dont (sic) think it is fair to stereotype the entire population, at all- but if there are additional education and assimilation procedures which might be warranted for certain at risk subgroups (young single males, in particular) that could be looked at."

Males overall, yes? As it seems almost every country appears to have a problem with women being assaulted by males, regardless of the male's background and religion.

[Ace Rothstein]

32. There is one poster in particular in the migrant threads making lot of excuses.

They litterally stereotyped all German men in one post but cautioned against stereotyping migrants in another, in the same damn thread.

[FrodosPet]

119. Tony Clifton Threadjack Time

[Nuclear Unicorn]

88. You're not fooling anyone.

[sibelian]

89. These statements of defence of innocent refugees are applied to men who are not refugees.

A large chunk of then influx has nothing to do with Syria. In fact I haven't heard of a single attack from a Syrian.

[hifiguy]

21. I wish I knew.

It disgusts me profoundly.

Women and LGBT people go under the bus so a horrible, backward religion can be defended in the name of scoring cheap virtue points. Revolting.

[romanic]

39. Ain't that the truth.

I'm seeing major deflection going on in this thread and many threads about these subjects regarding the news coming from Germany. It seems like its more poltically correct to defend the fuckery of Islam versus women and the lgbt community. :-/

I wonder which group will be thrown under the bus to make excuses for these crimes. The Jewish community? Syrian women?

[tabasco]

33. Good question.

I think the answer is .... "they're imbeciles."

[leftynyc]

42. Beats me

But it does appear more and more are waking up to face reality. It's about time and all it took was 600 women getting assaulted.

[The2ndWheel]

56. White male Christians are easy

When groups below white male Christians on the list start clashing, it's tougher to pick a side. If these were stories about stuff happening in the Middle East, it's a little easier, because then it's not white vs. minority. But, because this is all going on in Europe, then the perception goes back to white vs. minority. In minority vs. minority, within a dominant white culture, who do you pick? Everything gets more complex. How can you side with the dominant, privileged white culture, when that's the #1 problem in the normal story?

[Nye Bevan]

74. There's a lot more outrage here when a baker refuses to make a cake for a gay wedding

than when Islsmic extremists murder gay people by throwing them off buildings or stoning them to death.

[Dr. Strange]

79. True.

And a few replies downthread, someone's more upset at the Daily Mail than the individuals who are committing hate crimes.

[840high]

61. Good question.

[Nye Bevan]

73. Because (1) they are terrified of being seen as "Islamophobic",

(2) they hate to agree with the Republicans about anything at all, and (3) they think that criticizing Muslims may be seen as endorsing US military action in the Middle East.

[Lizzie Poppet]

105. Fake-ass "sensitivity" > calling out misogyny and homophobia.

All in support of the most socially conservative religious/cultural system on the planet.

Fuck that. Not tolerating it any longer, and if that gets my skinny ass banned, so be it.

[TipTok]

109. Likely because America is 'mean' to them...

... and thus anything they do is only because we provoked them or some such..

[LanternWaste]

116. the only semi-defense I see of rape comes from MRAs who rationalize it as something else..

I have yet to see any DUer excusing the rape of these women... you'll certainly link to one to better support your allegations, yes?

Indeed, the only semi-defense I see of rape comes from MRAs who consistently rationalize it as something else... unless it's done by Syrian immigrants in Germany.

[Odin2005]

44. Fuck the Daily Mail.

[shanti]

46. but, but

Dr. Shill says the Daily Fail is A-OK, and reads it first thing every day!!

[branford]

47. Why, because they reported on the crime?

As indicated in the article, there were actually arrests and the suspects known to police and accurately described. The article and events weren't rumor or conjecture.

Don't attack the messenger because you don't like the message.

[hifiguy]

65. Exactly. The reports came from

the German police, not some website. No need to shoot the messenger.

[840high]

62. You willing to say the same about

BBC - they have this, too.

[totodeinhere]

99. This has been reported by many outlets, not just the Daily Mail.

n/t

[Dems to Win]

54. So many German people who used to be safe walking their streets

Now walk in justifiable fear.

[tabasco]

57. Including my fiancee,

who will not be voting SPD again in the next election.

[betterdemsonly]

70. Well there were rapes and gropings in Germany before refugees got there

This is just racial incitment. Spare me your bleeding heart.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

84. Maybe you give us some numbers.

[JI7]

58. while i can believe this happened can you use other sources. daily mail is quoting breitbart

[betterdemsonly]

63. The DM and Breitbart also blow welfare fraud incidents to justify auterity

and elimination of the safetynet.

[betterdemsonly]

64. This is no different from Donald Trump calling all Mexican men rapists!

It is shocking to me that this board allows so many bigots to fly under the radar.

[hifiguy]

66. I will save my sympathies

for the victims, thank you. Regarding both this incident and the Cologne outrage.

[betterdemsonly]

68. Bull. Trump used a particular incident of a mexican man raping a white women to

justify his statement and what you are doing no different. If Bernie was here he by horrified you were using him to promote your hate and bitterness. You are not sympathetic to anyone. You are promoting hate against ethnic minorities based on a handful of incidences.

[smirkymonkey]

94. You are a bit out of control and extremely wrong.

These assaults have increased due to islamic migration. It is a fact, stop denying it.

[tabasco]

67. Wrong.

Dozens of attacks on German citizens by many refugees is a reality, not a false accusation.

[betterdemsonly]

69. Strawman

There are probably dozens of incidences of mexican men raping women in the US every year, it doesn't make them all rapists that should be discriminated against. The truth hurts. Oh and you are using Lincoln to promote your bigoted bs. He would recognize you as a neoconfederate sympathizer.

[tabasco]

72. LOL!

Let me know when dozens of gangs of Mexican immigrants assault hundreds of citizens in Cincinnati or Atlanta or Denver, just in ONE NIGHT, in addition to multiple other gang attacks in a short period of time.

I'll be standing by for that information. As soon as you have it, post it here.

[totodeinhere]

100. Wrong. The article does not allege that all Muslim immigrants do this.

It sites a specific documented incident. Do you have a problem with accurately reporting about something that happened just because it involves Muslims?

[awoke_in_2003]

71. When they are caught...

print them, collect DNA, and ship them back to the shit hole they came from. Make sure that they can never enter a civilized country again. Do this enough and the shit will slow down. If you do not want to adapt to the laws of the country you are living in, get the fuck out. Screw pussy footing around with people who want to bring their twisted view on religion to the rest of us.

[CBGLuthier]

75. Yeah but since it happens in America too there is nothing wrong with it

says some idiot or another sooner or later always.

[Democat]

86. Check the very first reply in this thread

Just like America!

[CBGLuthier]

87. Yeah, saw it after I posted.

Glad to see many replies pointing out how stupid a thing that is to say.

[smirkymonkey]

101. Always, of course.

[Liberal_in_LA]

80. horrible. Glad victims survived

[Dems to Win]

81. Best article I've read on this topic

written by an Egyptian woman living in Germany for an Egyptian newspaper

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2016/01/13/arabs-sexual-harassment-in-germany-and-its-effect-on-merkels-plans/

[DFW]

104. She says the same thing I have been saying. You have to be there to realize how true it is.

"If the German state agencies do not work rapidly to teach the new arrivals that respect for women in the European Union is an obligation and not a choice, all of Merkel’s political and economic plans will crumble under the cultural differences."

I agree, her observations are completely accurate.

[Matrosov]

91. Why are trans people so Islamophobic?

I'm sure they'd complain less if they'd been stoned by some white Christians.

Do we even know for sure they're transgendered? Maybe right-wing agitators just paid them to act like it.

[Oneironaut]

93. This is clearly America's fault. Also, since Christianity is also backwards,

we should accept what these men did, and have no right to call it wrong. Who do we think we are? Islam is a beautiful religion of peace.

[DFW]

96. Does the Daily Mail even know who Breitbart is?

"........according to the German media organisation Breitbart."

Huh?

Unless there is some new media outlet I've never heard of (possible, I guess, but I live there and have never heard of it), despite the German name, the only Breitbart media I know of is the right wing hate outfit from the USA.

[Denzil_DC]

98. Breitbart has branched out.

There's a Breitbart London, which span off from Breitbart in the USA and is much as you'd expect it to be - strong links to UKIP and the even further right, "journalists" of dodgy repute, some drawn from the dregs of Tory special advisers and opportunists etc, with little or no credibility beyond the fringe. Almost as bad as the Daily Mail, really.

I can't trace a Breitbart Germany online (though I haven't looked too hard), but I'd guess it does exist.

[DFW]

106. I wouldn't be too sure

Germany is one of the few countries in Europe that has free speech restrictions in its laws. Namely: Nazi propaganda, or anything deemed to be too close to it, is forbidden. Fox "News" does not exist there either, so it's not inconceivable that anything as extreme as Breitbart would fall under the same statutes. They even scrutinze the use of the number 18 in political discourse, since it is a Neo-Nazi recognition code. "A" is the first letter of the alphabet, and "H" is the eighth. All admirers of Adolf Hitler use it.

[Denzil_DC]

107. If they exist, I imagine they're careful to keep within the word of the law.

I consider the Breitbart London site quite extreme (reluctant to link to it, but it's full of much the sort of slant and coverage you'd expect - Google it if you're curious - and the comments sections are the pits, though the same could be said of many media sites nowadays), but it resembles coverage in mainstream papers like the UK Daily Mail and the Express, especially on racially oriented stories.

And as we're seeing, it's gaining traction because standards are slipping among the media generally as a result of cutbacks driven by financial problems. I wouldn't think it impossible that a staffer from even the BBC might cite "Breitbart Germany" as a credible source without being aware of, or even caring about, its background or bona fides. It's churnalism and clickbait.

It's quite possible Breitbart Germany doesn't exist beyond a few laptops and some mobile phones staffed by enthusiasts. If you can be bothered digging, I'd be interested to know.

[Babel_17]

102. They're new arrivals, who should be respecting the values of the country that took them in

the men spoke to them in Arabic and said they needed to stone 'such people'

This suggests something is very wrong in how people with these values are being processed for admission. It might be the case that people need to be told not to come if they can't embrace Western values. Not looking for concealed disgust, or patience so that they can someday get the upper hand (even if just in their neighborhood).

[Eleanors38]

108. I-i-i-i-t's time for the Big House.