Malheur Siege: The Frame is Oklahoma City, not Waco

[Fairgo]

I support the federal government moving with great care in the resolution of the latest skirmish of the sagebrush rebellion. Put in context, they are dealing with a movement with a history, with backers in the oligarchy. However, decorum and respect serve the rule of law. There is a protocol that should be followed wisely, but surely, to the trials of these seditionists...or to their funerals. I do not wish the latter, but they are not engaged in protest; they are engaged an armed insurrection.

The admonishment has been presented in the meme "...another Waco." Waco is not the correct meme. This is an extension of Oklahoma City. This is a battlefield, not an enclave. This is an opening in a gestating war and it needs to be treated as such. Until we understand that the insanity that has over taken us is more Weimar republic than Beverly Hillbillies we will continue as a nation to stand slack-jawed and wondering at the slow motion explosion of our democracy.

The evil impetus has never left us. From the halcyon days of plantation life, the powerful yearn for aristocracy, land, and serfs. In the west, the sons and daughters of manifest destiny carved their fiefdoms out of the original american holocaust. They created a religion that makes them gods and promises them planets to rule as kings. They literally stand on the bones of the slaughtered and defy us to act. They demand that we act. They will continue to advance until we do.

First it was the victory at Bundy ranch...and the galvanising aftermath. Contact between disparate extremist groups, energised cells, transition from static to dynamic groups in the moral hinterlands of Idaho, Texas, and Utah.

Bundy Ranch begat the mob in the sanctuary. Watch the unifying meme evolve. While we were laughing at them they were catapulting their propaganda to a waiting audience. The audience is tinder, soaked in kerosene. Did you catch Palin literally speaking in tongues? Who do you think she was talking to? Of course the transcript reads like gibberish, but that was not the message. It was the affect, the ritualised iconography, and most importantly, the thrumming sound of the cheering mob echoing in a million empty, hunger heads, "we are legion!". The mob is not engaged in discourse; it is working itself into an altered state.

These two comedy shows at polar ends of politics are symptoms of the same syndrome. No need for conspiracy, it is the self organising endgame of uncontrolled capitalism and corporate fascism. After the cowboys come the brown shirts. After the tea party comes the strong man. The first destroys the artifacts of democracy, the second destroys the idea.

Oklahoma City, not Waco.

[old guy]

1. Works for me.

[enough]

2. An interesting perspective, thanks for the post.

It brings me to a question I've been having since this thing started: Can you do civil disobedience while armed? I've come to the conclusion that, once you have spoken your intention of using the guns if you are interfered with, then it isn't civil disobedience.

As you say, this is not a protest. It's odd because they're using this faux "rational," "peaceful," demeanor and it's so nutty that it's almost hypnotizing. But, even on the face of it, it actually is, as you say, armed insurrection.

I agree, they have backers in the oligarchy, backers with a long long history, a concrete agenda, and a complex web of power. Another reason they're not to be dismissed as nothing but clowns. And yes, they are in an altered state for sure.

Exactly what to do about it?

[Fairgo]

3. That's the rub

They create a narrative that rejects reason. The reasonable and rational cannot negotiate across that boundary. Thus the only terms to be discussed are those of surrender. They must vacate the delusional bailiwick and rejoin us in an american jurisdiction before we can have any other discussion.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

4. This is in large part the legacy of the RW media blitz which has destroyed the ability of

millions of Americans to think logically. It's been a masterful propaganda campaign that's sold, even more successfully than it's RW philosophy, the idea that nonsensical arguments are actually valid. That there's no shame in blatant hypocrisy. That our meanest, most fearful and hateful instincts are worthy of our allegiance.

Reason will not reach those who have fallen under that spell. They may be beyond redemption. Here's hoping there are fewer of them than those still capable of reason.

[Fairgo]

5. It's magically pernicious

Deny people an education that includes critical thinking. Make sure that they live precariously in a world of fear. Give them a villain to hate blindly. Give them someone to oppress. Give them a hero who validates their ignorance. Fill the rest with Brawndo and 'batin. The pillars of idiocracy.

I don't expect them to listen to reason. I believe they should hear it so they can make an informed choice. But having chosen, they need to own the consequences.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

7. Exactly. I suspected years ago that one of the most importatnt strategies of the RW was to destroy

public education. And what they couldn't destroy, they'd discredit and defund. It's worked very well for them.

Even though many of the Republican politicians come close, Trump may be the personification of, as you say, the pillars of idiocracy.

[Jim Beard]

10. The biggest enemies of public education is religeon wanting the state to

subsidize K-12 like they do for college loans. This gives them much more control.

[Odin2005]

6. These people are WANABE WARLORDS.

[TexasProgresive]

8. Not Mount Carmel, not Oklahoma City but the seed was planted at

Ruby Ridge. These people have more in common with the Weavers than with David Koresh and company. McVeigh and Nichols were motivated by both actions, but I think Ruby Ridge was the bone in their throats.

[enough]

14. It could be the big difference here is that these people are not holed up in their own place.

They've travelled to it to take it over it with weapons and demands. The specific demand that the federal government has to give it up.

Once again, the attempt to rationally comprehend it gets mired down. I think the desire for violence may be more in play here than their little quiet playacting might suggest. There are a couple of personalities in there whose dreams of violence are pretty clear. Bundy has figured out some sort of schtick that seems to work on a wide swath of our current culture. Maybe it's the hat, or the double layered plaid shirts, the white t-shirt at the neck. Or what? The belly? Talking quietly?

What other explanation can there be for demanding that the federal government give up its "claim" on this place? They can''t actually believe that this is a potential outcome. So if they won't leave, the only outcome is violence. That's what they want.

And above everything else, putting the gun at the center of the drama is the sure sign. This isn't protest, and it isn't politics.

[flamingdem]

9. The FBI etc. must be aware that there are several other "uprisings" planned in reaction

to whatever goes down in Oregon.

I will choose to believe they're doing the right thing. If Obama is calling shots I imagine that he doesn't want any children hurt. Thus, the slow approach. That takes the wind out of their sails potentially and allows them to build up more Federal offenses for future trials.

[Jim Beard]

11. I want then to do something but after pausing several times, I figure since the FBI

is camped out at the local airport, they want to gather a lot of information. The longer it goes on, the greater the chance of the morons becoming comfortable and lax and starting to have very loose lips. This is a good chance to get teir files up to date since no one is in physical danger. I hope the federal workers are getting paid.

There will be an action, since the feds are working with the county. Some of the locals want them out but some are resupplying the with beef and other good food.

How do you trace a satellite phone?

[Fairgo]

12. Text & subtext

This plays out at two levels.

At Scofflaw Zion, the concern is preserving human life while fulfilling the mandate of federal law. I suppose our officials need time to (a) figure out exactly what laws are being broken, by whom; (b) plan for extraction; (c) marshal resources for same. It is reasonable to assume that we are still in this window of operations. You can make sense of the odd hands-off behaviour with this in mind. They let the perpetraitors [sic] wander about because their intent is not yet legally clear. And intent matters here. The crime, perhaps against the state, has yet to be fully committed; the web of complicity may stretch far beyond the gaggle of thugs who actually showed up. Containment would first entail defining the fringes of the terrorist network and working towards the centre. The flock of yahoos in the refuge are already tagged. Harvest is a separate function. But eventually they must be contained. If they hide behind a human shield all efforts should be exhausted to remove that shield, but the act of cowardice is their crime and shame, not society's.

In the agora of reason, the voices of the real community need to be heard and validated in proper proportion. For every cowboy fart, the local tribes get a town hall, the birders get a workshop, the town council gets a press release, and they all get protection. The most heartening aspect of this event has been the community action. Repudiating the ignorance in the public forum is as important as enforcing the law. We are battling for an idea, and we should demand that our candidates weigh in on the issue.

[GeorgeGist]

15. The Bundy Bunch shut out Obama et al in Nevada ...

So I doubt anything will be done this time.