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IDemo

(16,926 posts)
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 08:54 AM Jan 2016

30 years later, Challenger's final voyage remembered

Thirty years after the space shuttle Challenger broke apart in the clear, cold sky high above Cape Canaveral, the commander's widow no longer feels anger at NASA and the management missteps and schedule pressure that kept the orbiters flying despite a fatal flaw in their solid-fuel boosters.

She tells CBS News she is at peace with history, her role in it, the heart-wrenching loss of her husband and his six crewmates and her connection with the countless people who will never forget America's loss of innocence on the high frontier.

"I am able now to treat the event as history rather than avoiding the public scrutiny that overcame us during our private grieving," said June Scobee Rodgers, whose husband, Francis "Dick" Scobee, commanded the 25th shuttle mission. "I'm envious when I look back at Dick Scobee's pictures, and he's so young, and I'm a great grandmother now!

"It's also interesting to hear the perspective from my children as adults when they talk about it," she said. "I still hear from people who can tell me exactly where they were and what they were doing, if they were old enough, at the time of the accident. And it's amazing to me. They want to share their story with me. It's as though they are sharing the experience of their own grief with me."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/30-years-later-challengers-final-voyage-remembered/

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longship

(40,416 posts)
1. And Richard Feynman cutting to the core of the problem.
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 09:06 AM
Jan 2016


The O-Rings! He did a simple experiment in front of the whole Rogers Commission. He dunked a piece of O-Ring, compressed by a C-Clamp (purchased from a hardware store) into his ice water. When he requested the ice water, the staff insisted that everybody have it. Little did they know what he wanted to do with it. It wasn't for drinking.

It is one of those iconic moments in history when one person can make a difference. By such a simple thing as dipping an O-Ring into ice water.

He was correct, too.

An amazing person.
 

frizzled

(509 posts)
2. And nobody was ever held accountable - just like Columbia
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 09:08 AM
Jan 2016

The history of NASA is a pretty good refutation of the claim democracies tend to be self correcting.

longship

(40,416 posts)
3. That is absolute rubbish.
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 09:23 AM
Jan 2016

Travel in space is fucking dangerous. And NASA may be a big government program (actually it isn't that big) but it has a damned good safety record.

What was wrong was the space shuttle itself. Now maybe one can assign the blame for that flawed design wholly on NASA, but I would not go that far. I would put equal blame on congress who are basically ignorant of such matters. Also, one has to factor in Reagan's pushing for the launch. Certainly he was complicit in the disaster.

The Shuttle was always a compromise, in a
areas where safety should not be compromised.

Fully fund NASA so they don't have to cut corners and these things don't happen as much. That is the solution. Also, I think NASA has learned some bitter lessons from the Shuttle. I don't think that they are anxious to repeat them.

The biggest mistake for NASA and Congress was abandoning the manned Moon missions. We could have a permanent base there by now instead of low Earth orbit. Big mistake.

 

frizzled

(509 posts)
4. No, you're ignoring what actually happened.
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 09:28 AM
Jan 2016

The kind of danger the Shuttle exposed astronauts to was totally avoidable. The Russians are not known for being risk averse and they still managed very regular manned space flight.

Engineers from Morton Thiokol warned the O-rings were flawed in cold weather and nobody would listen.

With Columbia, engineers knew the Shuttle had been damaged, but NASA's management refused to listen or look at the Shuttle by satellite even though it was perfectly possible.

Yes, the Shuttle was a really stupid design, and set US space flight back 30 years. But there was no accountability. People should've gone to jail for those disasters. The Shuttle should've been scrapped much earlier, or ideally never built at all.

The biggest mistake for NASA and Congress was abandoning the manned Moon missions. We could have a permanent base there by now instead of low Earth orbit.


What on earth would be the point in that? Manned exploration of other planets is totally pointless. Robots are the right way to do that.

longship

(40,416 posts)
6. Well, I disagree about human space flight.
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 09:42 AM
Jan 2016

And I am entirely aware of the Morton-Thiokol engineers who refused to sign off on the launch and who were overridden by their supervisor, apparently by pressure from the White House, among others.

And yes, the worst thing NASA ever did was abandon the Moon. We are paying dearly for it now. I am not a big fan of the SLS/Orion either. The Saturn V main stages had a perfect launch record. We threw that away.

I support human space flight because it is dangerous and people who do it inspire us all to do better. Also, future manned flights will likely be international collaborations, bringing the world together. Plus, the paybacks are pretty damned good, as is common with all big science.

My best to you.



 

frizzled

(509 posts)
8. This argument doesn't make much sense.
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 10:25 AM
Jan 2016
I support human space flight because it is dangerous and people who do it inspire us all to do better.


So is sticking your genitalia in the mouth of a tiger.


Also, future manned flights will likely be international collaborations, bringing the world together.


That doesn't mean they're worth while. There are lots of better things we could collaborate on. And unmanned space exploration can be just as collaborative.

Plus, the paybacks are pretty damned good, as is common with all big science.


But unmanned space exploration has vastly BETTER payback. We should've pushed that ahead. We'll never get humans to Europa, but smart robots might get there. We could've had swarms of robots and telescopes out there for the cost of boondoggles like the Shuttle and the ISS.

Hell, with re-usable rockets we could get enough mass up there to launch an Orion type unmanned probe to arrive at the nearest star in a century or so.

longship

(40,416 posts)
9. Well, nobody said anything about sending humans to Europa.
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 10:38 AM
Jan 2016

My claim is that we should not have abandoned humans on the Moon, which I will stand by. As do many scientists including NdGT, Bill Nye, etc. etc. etc.

And of course we will send robotic probes out there. That's what NASA does, too.

But there has never been a greater triumph than Neal and Buzz and the rest of the Apollo astronauts leaving footprints on the Moon's surface. That we have not been back is one of the great human tragedies.

It is not an either/or deal. We can do both. And in case you haven't noticed, we're going to try to get to Mars, too. Probably no further though. (I will agree with you there.) And Mars is a really tough nut to crack. As you know. My bet is that the future of human space flight is asteroids and Lagrangian points. Only fun speculations, though.

Have a nice day, my good friend.

ProfessorGAC

(64,789 posts)
5. Also, Factor In Reagan's Pushing For The Launch?
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 09:42 AM
Jan 2016

Also? That's the cause. Everyone knew they shouldn't launch. Someone in that White House called and said launch or else.

NASA management now found themselves under enormous political pressure and cracked. Then pushed it forward and those people died.

If the whole thing wasn't a big grandstanding ploy by the Reagan White House (teacher in space) and that the SOTU speech included stuff about her, and that thing was going to be in space during SOTU, that thing never gets launched that day.

I don't just factor in the administration's push. I consider the whole thing their fault.

eppur_se_muova

(36,246 posts)
12. Challenger Revealed: An Insider's Account of How the Reagan Administration Caused the Greatest Trage
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 11:16 AM
Jan 2016
Synopses & Reviews
Publisher Comments

The Reagan Administration pushed hard for NASA to launch shuttle mission 51L, before it was ready. 73 seconds into the launch, the shuttle exploded, killing seven people and leaving a nation traumatized.

Richard Cook, the lead resource analyst at NASA for the Solid Rocket Boosters (SRBs), was the first to warn of possible catastrophic failure. His memo, which detailed astronaut concerns and warnings from the shuttle builders at Morton Thiokol, were ignored by top NASA officials and members of the Reagan administration.

In the aftermath of the explosion, NASA launched an investigation to “discover” the cause of the disaster. Though within NASA there was absolute certainty about the O-ring joint failure, they began a cover-up by publicly proclaiming that the cause of the explosion was unknown. A Reagan administration Commission perpetrated the same lie. And when Richard Cook realized that the Commission was not interested in revealing the truth, he acted as a true patriot and hero and leaked the original O-ring warning documents to the New York Times. His article set off a cascade of disclosures about the events leading up to the disaster, including revelations by Morton Thiokol engineers that they had tried to stop the launch.


http://www.powells.com/book/challenger-revealed-an-insiders-account-of-how-the-reagan-administration-caused-the-greatest-tragedy-of-the-space-age-9781560259800

ProfessorGAC

(64,789 posts)
14. Read That Snip Before
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 02:10 PM
Jan 2016

I think it was here on DU. I know that when i read it there was confirmation bias going on, but i never doubted the decision to launch was political, not scientific.

stellanoir

(14,881 posts)
10. Shortly after the Columbia's failed re entry,
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 10:50 AM
Jan 2016

heard a person who was well acquainted with indigenous perspectives speak of the event.

He said, &quot paraphrasing) the fact that Challenger exploded during its ascent, & Columbia did so upon its descent, would be considered to be a very ominous omen for our country."

And so it was.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
11. Joseph Trento and Susan Trento reminded us about Nixon's role in the shuttle design.
Thu Jan 28, 2016, 11:10 AM
Jan 2016

From DUer John Simkin's Education Forum:

Leadership. Kennedy had James Webb and Johnson Tom Paine. Both men were tough visionaries. Nixon hated Kennedy's program and treated NASA with contempt. he more than anyone destroyed the NASA culture by turning NASA over to defense contractors. Carter was an engineer and understood NASA and had he had a second term may have brought it back. Reagan treated NASA as a Hollywood prop and hope rid of a competent defense contractor type and replace him with an inexperienced ideologue. That individual was not even in the office when Challenger was launched. Eyewitnesses say that he thought the explosion was part of the normal launch process (the witness was a powerful Congressman). Bush I, Clinton and Bush II gave space lip service but provided no effective leadership. Bush II and Clinton's Administrations was terrible. Obama treated the program with greater realism and his partnership with private industry may help NASA get back to the real serious stuff. But while we all long for the days of Apollo I am afraid that is gone forever because the public does not have the political will. Considering that no program advanced our society faster it seems foolish not to reach for the stars. -- Joseph Trento

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19282


The Trento's "Prescription for Disaster: From the Glory of Apollo to the Betrayal of the Shuttle" chronicled how Nixon cut NASA's budget so much that they had to redesign the post-Apollo reusable manned vehicle from one with a manned, liquid-fueled booster to one with the giant external tank lifted off with assist from the two enormous, and flawed, solid rocket motors.
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