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marmar

(77,056 posts)
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 09:34 AM Apr 2016

Chris Hedges: "All cultures decay and die. Dying cultures...begin to deeply fear change"


from truthdig:


The Wages of Sin

Posted on Apr 10, 2016
By Chris Hedges


When Plato wrote “The Republic,” his lament for a lost Athenian democracy, he did not believe democracy could be recovered. The classical world, unlike our own, did not see time as linear. Time was cyclical. It inevitably brought decay and eventually death. This true for both individuals and societies. And in his “Republic,” Plato proposed that those who attempted in the future to create the ideal state carry out a series of draconian measures, including banning drama and music, which diverted the citizen from performing civic duties and instilled corruption, and removing children from their parents to provide a proper indoctrination. Plato wanted to slow the process of dissolution. He wanted to stymie change. But that decay and death would come was certain, even in Plato’s ideal state.

History has proved the ancient Greeks correct: All cultures decay and die. Dying cultures, even when they cannot fully articulate their reality, begin to deeply fear change. Change, they find, brings with it increasing dysfunction, misery and suffering. This fear of change soon becomes irrational. It compounds decay and accelerates morbidity. To see modern-day victims of this process, we need only look to white American workers who once had good manufacturing jobs and benefited from the structures of white supremacy.

Those who promise to miraculously roll back time rise up in decaying cultures to hypnotize a bewildered and confused population. Plastic surgeons who provide the illusion of eternal youth, religious leaders who promise a return to a simplified biblical morality, political demagogues who hold out the promise of a renewed greatness, and charlatans offering techniques for self-advancement and success all peddle magical thinking. A desperate population, fearing change, clamors for greater and greater illusion. The forces that ensure collective death—including corporate capitalism, the fossil fuel industry and the animal agriculture industry—are blotted out of consciousness.

When a society laments the past and dreads the future, when it senses the looming presence of death, it falls down a rabbit hole. And as in the case of Alice—who “went on saying to herself, in a dreamy sort of way, ‘Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats?’ and sometimes, ‘Do bats eat cats?’ for, you see, as she couldn’t answer either question, it didn’t much matter which way she put it”—language becomes unmoored from experience. Daily discourse, especially public discourse, is, as our presidential campaign illustrates, reduced to childish gibberish.

.....(snip).....

The pent-up anger and frustration among the white working class have given birth to dark pathologies of hate. The hate is directed against those of different skin color or ethnicity who somehow seem to have heralded the changes that destroyed families and communities.

This sentiment, on display at Donald Trump rallies, will outlive the Trump campaign even should the candidate be, as I expect, deposed by the party elites. It is a very dangerous force. ............(more)

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_wages_of_sin_20160410




18 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Chris Hedges: "All cultures decay and die. Dying cultures...begin to deeply fear change" (Original Post) marmar Apr 2016 OP
K&R bookmarked secondwind Apr 2016 #1
Marking, C. Hedges. appalachiablue Apr 2016 #2
It's cyclical because we make it so Rebkeh Apr 2016 #3
Mankind's perfect sublimecabbie Apr 2016 #4
Maybe Anarchy could work... Rebkeh Apr 2016 #6
The only thing sublimecabbie Apr 2016 #17
But racism is still here Rebkeh Apr 2016 #18
The problem with history mikehiggins Apr 2016 #5
um, cultures don't actually decay paulkienitz Apr 2016 #7
Evolve or Die Martin Eden Apr 2016 #8
Chris Hedges sees all questions as nails for his hammer Albertoo Apr 2016 #9
Well put. n/t trotsky Apr 2016 #11
I consider myself a liberal, but... SpankMe Apr 2016 #10
Are you kidding? We're great at solutions. trotsky Apr 2016 #12
k and r AxionExcel Apr 2016 #13
I stopped after BumRushDaShow Apr 2016 #14
Good points. Yeah, he missed a lot. randome Apr 2016 #16
We fear change! KamaAina Apr 2016 #15

Rebkeh

(2,450 posts)
3. It's cyclical because we make it so
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 11:03 AM
Apr 2016

We try to work against natural cycles, to dominate nature, and we repeatedly repeat history. We have choices and we consistently make bad ones, this is on us.

Things are the way they are because we don't believe we have a choice. There will be another Hitler again and again until we correct the reasons why we had him in the first place.

(Toxic) authoritarianism is only toxic because we make it toxic.

Racism is another one. We will always have racism until we work out why it was invented to begin with. And why it is maintained. This is the biggest obstacle to equality, that we think it's human nature. It's not, it's a choice.

That said, this is getting into "disruptive meta" territory and could be flagged. I don't want to go further. The bottom line is the question about human nature and your opinion about what it is. And opinions are not facts.

 

sublimecabbie

(14 posts)
4. Mankind's perfect
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 11:07 AM
Apr 2016

state -- a righteous democracy -- is Anarchy. Anarchism is the most democratic of all political (moral) philosophies.

Rebkeh

(2,450 posts)
6. Maybe Anarchy could work...
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 11:38 AM
Apr 2016
after we correct (yes, correct) the reasons why we invented racism, why we created the dictators and authoritarian oppressors of the world, and other ugly expressions of human fear.

But it's moot anyway. As long as we believe that power for one is contingent on the powerlessness of another, as long as we avoid the real internal work within ourselves, none of them would work effectively (though some work better than others). Anarchy would be the worst of them all. Do you really believe the assholes of the world wouldn't use it as a means to their ends? That they would go quietly into the night, defeated? No, Anarchy would give them carte blanche and since resources are not equally distributed among the commons, it's a recipe for even more disaster. Instability is not a solution for instability.

You are never going to get an alliance with the least powerful of a society when you seek, or appear to seek, power over them after victories have been won. It's just not going to happen (getting back to the OP). This is precisely why Anarchy as an equalizer is laughable on its face. Same with Libertarianism.

Flipping the script does not restore balance - it's the same shit, different day.
 

sublimecabbie

(14 posts)
17. The only thing
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 07:38 PM
Apr 2016

Anarchy needs to succeed is the majority of people to see that the initiation of force is IMMORAL.

When the collective consciousness identifies a monumentally unjust reality, then nothing else matters that would prevent the people from seeking to overturn the paradigm.

When good people couldn't refute the logic that slavery was morally wrong, the people ignored all arguments against ending slavery, and acted on their moral beliefs -- the status quo be dammed.

The majority of us progressives may be stuck in the status quo of political philosophies, but make no mistake about it, the current paradigm of government and social order is immoral as all hell and undemocratic since it is predicated on the initiation of force and fraud.

One day, either by choice or by forces out of our control, we the people will have a chance to shift to a society based on VOLUNTARY interactions. Hopefully progressives will keep progressing in their moral beliefs.

Rebkeh

(2,450 posts)
18. But racism is still here
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 09:21 PM
Apr 2016

If what you say was true, we would be post racial.

I don't think you fully understand how racism works, it goes way beyond moral understanding. You assume, judging by your argument anyway, that we are already are or can be much further ahead than we are without doing the work. We cannot, it's like a band that will keep snapping us back again and again.

We cannot skip the powerful/powerless issue I mentioned above. It simply won't happen.

mikehiggins

(5,614 posts)
5. The problem with history
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 11:19 AM
Apr 2016

is, basically, that over time humanity has built up a body of knowledge which does not bode well for the future. None are so blind, as some have said, as those who will not see. Individuals and groups and nations who are willingly blind to the direction our society, and our world, is moving in will be amazed and horrified as what happens along the way to the collapse of that society.

I will be 71 in September. I was born on the day the Japanese signed the surrender papers on the deck of the Missouri. By any human standards I have had a good run, a great run, but the race is coming to an end for me and everyone like me.

I wish the people well who are going to be alive during the collapse of the West.

They will be living in interesting times.

Martin Eden

(12,845 posts)
8. Evolve or Die
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 12:28 PM
Apr 2016

If human civilization doesn't find a way to work together for a better more sustainable future, we will perish by our own self-destructive characteristics.

Real progress is needed, and we trying to overcome powerful forces that either want to maintain the status quo or manipulate the people by pandering to their worst instincts.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
9. Chris Hedges sees all questions as nails for his hammer
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 12:36 PM
Apr 2016

If it doesn't fit, he'll just reshape the question in the form of a nail.

SpankMe

(2,957 posts)
10. I consider myself a liberal, but...
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 12:42 PM
Apr 2016

...this article reminds me of one problem we libs have: We're good at the diagnosis, but not the cure.

This is a great analysis of what ails us as a country. But, there is nothing within the analysis that points to how to fix this.

Not that every analysis HAS to have a proposed solution within it..I mean, great thinkers like Chris Hedges certainly are entitled to the occasional philosophical waxing for waxing's sake.

But, in the wider political discourse I think we lack at coming up with workable solutions right down the finer details with a good description of how the solution would work.

Granted, the Repubs are no good at solutions. But, we should be able to beat them at the game without relying only on abstractions and theories that are clearly unworkable.

"Breaking up the big banks" is a good idea in theory. But, exactly how? Which legal and operational mechanism? Are we fighting against market forces in some areas that would just slowly bring back big banks?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
12. Are you kidding? We're great at solutions.
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 12:48 PM
Apr 2016

Diagnosis: unsafe working conditions, long work hours, child labor.
Cure: OSHA, unions, child labor laws.

Granted, Republicans continue to fight all of those, weakening protections where they can, but you can't say we didn't fix serious problems.

Big banks? To start, I'd like to see a new Glass-Steagall act. Keep the banking, investment, and insurance industries separate. That, you might recall, was a liberal SOLUTION to a problem made clear when the stock market collapsed and ushered in the Great Depression.

BumRushDaShow

(128,480 posts)
14. I stopped after
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 01:02 PM
Apr 2016
The classical world, unlike our own, did not see time as linear.


Whose "world" does he call "our own"?

Perhaps it's his naivete and modern eurocentric assumptions that default "linear" as the "norm" because that is the belief within his culture, which in turn explains why the below happens -

The pent-up anger and frustration among the white working class have given birth to dark pathologies of hate. The hate is directed against those of different skin color or ethnicity who somehow seem to have heralded the changes that destroyed families and communities.


The whole piece is like a hyperbolic alpha and omega.

At the end, death arrives as a relief.

We are no more immune to the forces of decay and death than were ancient Athens, ancient Egypt, ancient Rome, the Mayans, the Aztecs, Easter Island, Europe’s feudal society of lords and serfs, and the monarchal empires in early 20th-century Europe. Human nature has not changed. We will react as those before us reacted when they faced collapse. We will be increasingly consumed by illusion. We will seek to stop time, to prevent change, to embrace magical thinking in a desperate effort to return to an idealized past. Many will suffer.

This time, collapse will be planetwide. There will be no new lands to conquer, no new peoples to subjugate, no new natural resources to plunder and exploit. Climate change will teach us a brutal lessen about hubris.


Meanwhile he misses the fact that although no longer "ruling the world", most if not all of those ancient societies are still here - notably the large cities. Athens is still around. Luxor is still around. Rome & Constantinople (now called Istanbul) are still here. The irony of his mention of the Mayans in an attempt to be "inclusive", was that many within his own culture, assumed that the famous &quot Long count) Maya calendar" marked the "end of the world", yet it merely marked the end of a cycle.

The "human nature" part that is missed is that humans tend to congregate in places that offer sustenance or provide access to it (as stopovers along trade routes) and many of the ancient cities were situated and built/rebuilt (many many times) to maximize that. He also misses that many many societies worked with nature for millenia, and when doing so, were (and still are) branded as "savages" and "uncivilized" by his culture, while his culture worked to "tame" it and "conquer" it. If anything, I don't think he gives "mother nature" enough credit for balancing out the planet in other ways, in order to come into scientific equilibrium.
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
16. Good points. Yeah, he missed a lot.
Mon Apr 11, 2016, 02:24 PM
Apr 2016

He especially missed the Industrial Revolution and the Information Age, which make life today a much, much different proposition than it was before. We only gained full consciousness two to four thousand years ago. We are not the same culture we were before then, maybe, in a way, not even the same species.

Thinking that history is always predictive of the future is lazy thinking. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not.
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