Transgender track athlete makes history as controversy swirls around her

[Ex Lurker]

http://usatodayhss.com/2016/transgender-track-athlete-makes-history-as-controversy-stirs-around-her

Haines (Alaska) senior sprinter Nattaphon “Ice” Wangyot made history at Alaska’s state track meet, becoming the first transgender student-athlete to compete individually for a high school state championship, according to the Alaska Dispatch News. As you might expect with any progressively historical event, it did not come without controversy.

Alaska Family Action president Jim Minnery and a dozen supporters of his conservative group gathered outside the state track meet to protest an 18-year-old who was trying to live her life, according to multiple local media reports.

“We are here today as a voice from the community to ensure that female athletes are not denied the playing opportunities and scholarships otherwise available to them and to make the playing field even again,” Minnery said during a press conference at the state meet, per the Alaska Dispatch News. “… Allowing students to play on teams of the opposite sex disproportionately impacts female students, who will lose spots on track, soccer and volleyball teams to male students who identify as female.”

Despite Minnery’s protests, Wangyot, a Thai native who was born male and identifies as female, qualified and competed in the Class 3A girls’ sprints at the state meet, capturing third place in the 200-meter dash (27.3) and fifth in the 100 (13.36). She also played for the girls volleyball and basketball teams at Haines during her senior year.

However, Fairbanks (Alaska) Hutchinson junior Saskia Harrison, whose time of 14.11 seconds in the 100 left her outside the 16-competitor cut for the Class 1A-2A-3A field, took issue with Wangyot’s presence in the event.

“I’m glad that this person is comfortable with who they are and they’re able to be happy with who they are,” she told KTVA-TV, “but competitively I don’t think it’s completely 100 percent fair.”

[Ex Lurker]

1. I'm surprised Palin hasn't said anything about this nt

[lpbk2713]

4. Lady BLah Blah is still preparing her word salad.

She's probaly booked a slot on Faux by now.

[Initech]

2. Can we please tell these "Family" groups to shut the fuck up already?

Their existence is predicated on hatred for anyone that isn't straight and white. Their policies do more harm than good. And this is a perfect example.

[Lucky Luciano]

3. It is a bit unfair, but christofascists can fuck themselves.

"I’m glad that this person is comfortable with who they are and they’re able to be happy with who they are,” she told KTVA-TV, “but competitively I don’t think it’s completely 100 percent fair.”

I agree with this. It is like a roided up female athlete, unless I am missing something. Do they test for male hormones for female trans athletes? Is there some level of male hormone that they must be below to compete with girls/women? It does seem unfair otherwise.

[Captain Stern]

5. I does seem unfair.

Your questions about hormone levels are good ones. It seems that regardless of which gender a person identifies as, there are physical advantages that usually come with having a Y chromosome.

The policy seems to unfairly benefit people that are born with Y chromosomes that identify as female, while putting the people that are born without a Y chromosome that identify as a male at a significant disadvantage.

[Yo_Mama]

6. It's more than hormones - even on hormone therapy, MTFs will have higher muscle content

& different distribution. The biological male/female differences are rather huge. There is also a highly significant difference between VO2 Max norms.

Allowing MTFs to play as females instantly turns an average young male athlete into a stellar female athlete.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8477683

[LisaL]

7. I agree.

I don't think it's fair to other athletes (who are biologically female).

[davidn3600]

15. Not all research agrees...

It is also important to know that any athletic advantages a transgender girl or woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen therapy. According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender girl or woman competing on a women's team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence. As one survey of the existing research concludes, "the data available does not appear to suggest that transitioned athletes would compete at an advantage or disadvantage as compared with physically born men and women."

http://jezebel.com/5656062/making-sports-fair-for-transgender-athletes

[LisaL]

18. As far as I can tell, school can decide to allow a transgender female to compete against biological

females, even if this transgender female isn't taking hormones (but just identifies as a female).

[philosslayer]

56. Not only "decide to", they HAVE to

you can't specify, as the Federal Government has, that people be allowed access to the bathroom of the gender they identify with, but then cut them off when they decide to play a sport. It doesn't work that way.

[braddy]

26. Is there a law that a maab transgender take estrogen, should there be?

[EL34x4]

30. Hormone treatments aren't necessarily required to be considered transgender.

Or any surgical or medical procedure for that matter.

Alaska leaves it up to each district to make their own rules regarding transgender athletes. The Haines Borough School District policy is as follows: "For the purposes of gender identification for interscholastic activities, the district will consider the gender identity based on the student's consistent declaration of gender identity, their actions, attitude, dress and mannerisms."

[braddy]

31. I agree, it is, or is on the way to being purely self identification.

[Travis_0004]

78. And they tend to be taller

Height tends to be an advantage is most sports, somebody who was born as a male is likely to be taller than somebody born as a woman, and years of hormones wont change that.

[LisaL]

8. There is a reason biological males compete against biological males,

and biological females compete against biological females (in most sports). If females could be competitive against males, there would be no need to gender segregate sports to begin with.

[joshcryer]

13. Harrison seems level headed about it.

[LisaL]

19. They don't seem to test for anything.

It's up to the school to decide. What about schools that this school is competing against?

[philosslayer]

9. Good for her!!

The complainers obviously don't get it. Nattaphon is a girl, and therefore should be able to compete with other girls. Ms. Harrison sounds like a bit of a whiner to me.

[Democat]

10. There are valid reasons to discuss the issue

Check up thread.

That doesn't mean these right wingers aren't bigots.

[EL34x4]

11. Instead of crying about losing a spot in the finals

Harrison should be proud to see Nattaphon break barriers (and possibly break long-standing high school girls' athletic records).

[LisaL]

17. Someone who is biologically male winning against biological females is breaking barriers?

Really?

[Abq_Sarah]

21. Harrison wants to compete on an even field

There's nothing bigoted about that and she shouldn't be bullied into pretending this was fair or right.

[tallahasseedem]

83. This isn't breaking barriers...

This individual has an unfair advantage over their competitors. It is no different than those competing who are supplementing with hormones, steroids, etc. If it's athletics, they should be competing due to XX or XY.

[Initech]

12. Complaining to a pro family, anti-LGBT group seems like a very douchy move.

[joshcryer]

14. Where did the students do that?

From what I gather the students aren't making a fuss, Harrison in particular seemed to just be answering a question from the media.

[MosheFeingold]

16. Hard call

I see both sides. Female, but nonetheless kind of cheating.

Perhaps sports can be "XX" or "XY" genetic classes and leave it at that, without reference to sex.

Of course, you still have the occasional XXY or XYY.

[Captain Stern]

74. That's probably the best way to go.

The people would really be screwed over by the policy that the school in the OP is using are the people that are born 'XX', but identify as males. By the school's policy, if they wanted to run track, they'd have to try out for the men's team. A lot of them would be good enough to compete against females, but wouldn't be able to make the men's team. They'd be pretty much out of luck.

[treestar]

75. There's an idea

Transcends the gender issue. Good thought!

[ileus]

20. Think what a kick ass girls softball team you could have.

[Abq_Sarah]

22. Biological girls need not apply?

[Ex Lurker]

24. A relative is an educational administrator whose duties involve Title IX issues

and thinks this, rather than bathrooms and locker rooms, is where the big area of contention will be, for reasons illustrated in this thread. The usual left/right, religious/nonreligious polarities break down. Allowing transgender athletes to compete against biological females will disadvantage the biological females, at least some of the time. And right now, there's no blood test/hormone level hurdle. If someone says they identify as a female, the guidance coming from higher authority says you are to consider them female, regardless of any other factors. This potentially puts (at least some) feminists at odds with (at least some) LGBTQ activists. The courts will probably have to hash it out, and a lot of people will be dissatisfied with whatever the outcome is.

[deaniac21]

63. Great post!

[LisaL]

23. If Bruce Jenner was allowed to compete against females back in his day, he'd win

everything in sight.

[JanMichael]

27. he won the 1976 olympic mens decathalon so he kinda already did win everything. nt

[LisaL]

28. My point is, if he was allowed to compete against females, a female gold medalist would have been

denied that gold medal.

[davidn3600]

29. Women didnt compete in the decathalon back then

The Olympics didn't allow women to do it.

[LisaL]

32. Would it be fair for him to compete in pentathlon then?

[philosslayer]

34. If he identified as a female, then I don't see the problem.

Who says sports are fair? One guy is 7 feet tall, and another guy is 5'5". Is that fair? No, but neither is life.

[LisaL]

36. Him identifying as female doesn't make him a biological female.

[philosslayer]

38. Him identifying as female makes him a female

You can't draw arbitrary lines and decide that someone is a female sometimes, but not other times. If you self identify as a female, you're a female. Period. Otherwise, the slippery slope and all that.

[LisaL]

41. It doesn't make his body and hormone levels to be that of the female.

[philosslayer]

44. Doesn't matter

Thats not what this issue is about. Its about the inner person, and who they are, not about their physical attributes. Sorry you can't understand this.

This young woman IS a young woman, and wants to compete with other young women. Why would you possibly deny her that????

[LisaL]

54. Athletic competition isn't about the "inner person."

It is about physical attributes.
jeez.

[philosslayer]

55. So let me get this straight...

When applying for a job, or determining what bathroom to use, or what locker room to use, or a thousand other areas, physical attributes aren't import. Biology is immaterial. Its what gender you identify as that matters.

BUT, when it comes to sports, well thats different. Any other areas that you determine transgender women "need not apply"?

[LisaL]

57. When it comes to sport, people compete on how fast they run, or how far or high

they jump. Not on how nice their "inner person" is.

[Yo_Mama]

46. It makes him a social female rather than a biological female. In this case, a meaningful distinction

I do expect court cases RE Title IX for sports.

The reason we have different teams/competitions for sports is biological rather than social.

To put it bluntly, only a tiny fraction of biological women could compete on teams/organized sports if there were not this separation. Title IX has been interpeted to demand equal sports opportunities for each gender at education institutions receiving federal monies.

http://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/en/home/advocate/title-ix-and-issues/what-is-title-ix/standard-language-of-title-ix

Especially when it comes to the more competitive teams at top secondary institutions, a meaningful number of those slots may be taken by transgender (male to females).

In addition, the legal developments are moving toward using identification, and only identification, as a standard. There is a real legal issue here. I don't think there is one solution which will be fully "fair".

[philosslayer]

47. "a social female rather than a biological female"???

Are you serious? So transgender women really aren't women? They're just women in their head? Wow.

[Yo_Mama]

50. Biologically of course they are not XY. That's so obvious that it needs no explanation.

There are intersexuals, who are born with conditions that make them gender ambiguous or even express gender opposite to their chromosomes.

We use the word transgender to denote individuals whose gender identification is strongly different than their biological gender.

[philosslayer]

53. But its pretty much been accepted...

...at least in the progressive community, that "biological gender" is immaterial. Its what a person identifies as that is important and the real differentiator.

[Ex Lurker]

58. And there's the cnflict which will have to be hashed out

to no one's satisfaction. Treating transgender females as biological females for athletic purposes will mean diminished athletic opportunities for biological females.

[philosslayer]

60. ... and doing otherwise will discriminate against transgender females

Pick your poison.

[Yo_Mama]

62. In many cases that is true, but the physical reality is highly relevant sometimes.

Such as in medical treatment. Reproduction.

We are social creatures. In most cases our social reality IS what is relevant.

In sports, it is not. There is a long legal and social history related to equalizing opportunities for sports for women, and here the biological reality is legally very relevant.

[forthemiddle]

73. Many female athletes in high school

Are competing for the very few college sport scholarships available. Is it fair if a biological male comes in and becomes the top winner of those scholarships?

This is far more complicated than who is sitting in the next bathroom stall.

[tallahasseedem]

84. +1

This is a very important point...one that I hope people consider without attacks.

[Lee-Lee]

25. I'm torn here

It's great to see her break barriers and be treated how she identifies.

However, the physical differences do give her quite an advantage. And when you look at how much more than just a trophy can be at stake when some of these young athletes are competing for college scholarships it doesn't seem fair.

It's an issue I see the Armed Forces will probably have to tackle very soon as well. On the standard Army PT test the standards for males and females are very different, and figuring out how to work trans Soldiers into that will be tough with no easy answers. A male who just passed the test would have a much higher score on the female scale, and when and where do you draw that line? Especially if you going to recognize non-binary and other genders aside from male and female.

[Marr]

49. I'm not torn. I think it's absolute bullshit.

There's a transgender MMA fighter named Fallon Fox who beats the living crap out of women and brags about it-- knock outs in 30 seconds. It's not even a contest. Awful.

[LisaL]

66. Found this article.

Fallon Fox gave his female opponent a concussion and broke her eye socket.

“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not, because I’m not a doctor,” she stated. “I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life, and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. ”

Read more: http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/transgender-mma-fighter-destroys-female-opponent/#ixzz4ArMOkGNG
Follow us: @TheLibRepublic on Twitter

[Lizzie Poppet]

33. Grossly unlevel playing field. I strongly oppose this.

Competitive athletics is based on a level playing field and earned advantages (like training better and harder). Not on being born with significant muscle density advantages, etc. If a transgender female athlete is sufficiently advanced in hormone treatments to have the large majority of such advantages eliminated, fine. She should be able to compete as a female. If not, it's absolutely unfair, period.

[philosslayer]

35. So let me understand your reasoning....

A transgender female is a transgender female only if she goes through hormone treatment???? Oh I don't think so. Its enough to identify as a female without having to go through an expensive hormonal process.

[LisaL]

37. Why do even we ban performance enhancing drugs in sports?

Lets just make it free for all. If I wanted to pump myself full of steroids before competing, I guess that should be just fine by you.

[philosslayer]

39. You're making my argument

Hormone treatments are analogous to performance enhancing drugs. Everyone should compete just as they are. Males compete with males, and females compete with females. Agreed?

[LisaL]

40. Testosterone is a steroid hormone, which males have a lot more of.

If men are allowed to compete against women, then I fail to see why these women can't be allowed to take steroids, or whatever performance enhancing drugs they want.

[philosslayer]

43. If I'm a baseball player...

And I'm not quite strong enough, I'm not allowed to cork my bat.

If i don't throw hard enough, i'm not allowed to scuff the ball or throw a spitball.

Some athletes have natural advantages. Some men have more testosterone than others. Life isn't fair.

[jonno99]

51. IMHO, this issue has the potential to severly tarnish - if not destroy women's sports.

Even now there is a lot of controversy over women with naturally higher testosterone.

This transgenders issue will only exacerbate this as (biological) women - feeling already marginalized will push back, as scholarships, awards, endorsements, etc. - already scarce, will become even more so. And to simply say "some athletes have natural advantages...life isn't fair" sounds more than a bit sexist, and is not going to cut it...

[philosslayer]

52. So whats your solution?

Gender checks? Should we have those before people go into bathrooms or locker rooms as well?

[jonno99]

59. You tell me - what do you think is fair? How much effort does it take to become

a top female athlete? How much competition is there in high-school and then in college to make the top ranks? 100% effort - and then some. Then take your biological male, how much effort would they have to make to equal the performance of the "biological" females? Less effort - wouldn't you agree?

So what do you think is fair? When it comes to handing out scholarships, awards, endorsement contracts to the "top" athletes, should there be any requirements?

[philosslayer]

61. The progressive community has made its decision

Its the gender you identify with that determines the gender you are. And I support that decision.

[Abq_Sarah]

64. Would you also then agree

That there should be no gender segregated sports? Let's just eliminate women's sports entirely. They don't have the genetic advantages to compete on an even field with men so why bother?

[philosslayer]

65. Of course there should be gender segregated sports

Men play with men, and women play with women. Or women play with men.

[Travis_0004]

80. Why

I'm sure you are going to say "because men have an unfair advantage", so doesn't it stand to reason that somebody who is transgender has the same unfair advantage.

[philosslayer]

81. Someone 7 feet tall...

Who wants to play basketball has an unfair advantage over someone 5'8". Life isn't fair, and neither are sports.

[Travis_0004]

85. Yes, but somebody born a man is more likely to be 7' tall

[jonno99]

86. "Life isn't fair, and neither are sports." Hmm - really? So when transgendered women athletes

are told "sorry - you can't participate as a female because you are biologically a male", they should be accepting of that because, well, "Life isn't fair, and neither are sports".

...or did I misunderstood you?

[Captain Stern]

76. Good point.

I think it would become practically impossible for a female with 'xx' chromosomes to obtain an athletic scholarship for most collegiate sports.

A man that wouldn't otherwise be able to earn an athletic scholarship would simply have to lie, and claim he identifies as female to get the scholarship that an actual female would have gotten. Thousands of dollars is a strong incentive to lie.

[Lizzie Poppet]

42. Nope, you didn't understand my reasoning.

I'd say 'nice try,' but it really wasn't.

If the actual reasons for maintaining biological gender divisions in (most) athletic competitions hadn't already been presented in the thread, I'd probably explain in detail...but they are, and I thus find your misunderstanding of the point a bit, um...facile, shall we say.

[philosslayer]

45. All I know...

Is that a young woman wants to run track with other young women, and yet she's being castigated for it. Its shameful.

[Ford F-150]

48. Physically...she's a man...

[Nye Bevan]

68. That statement would be considered transphobic (nt)

[jonno99]

69. And some might say there is a touch of sexism - even misogyny, in some

of the attitudes displayed on this thread. What I'm hearing is: "So, you're a female athlete born without testicles? Too bad, sucks to be you...".

As I said up-thread this issue is only going to get worse. Unless we reach some sort of compromise, women's sports will disappear.

[elljay]

77. I know many Olympic athletes

and if you think there is no cheating, you are very naive. They already take all kinds of illegal substances, including hormones, to gain a competitive advantage. They do his knowing hat it may cause medical problems later on. I was with one athlete the evening before he died in his sleep caused, in large part, by his use of anabolic steroids. So, if you think that there will not be fake transgender males competing as females, you are deluded. I guarantee that here will be males trying to get sports scholarships and then, after college, "deciding" that they are really not trans. Four years of paid tuition at Stanford is a lot of money! And, female to male trans athletes will never be able to participate in competitive athletics if they have to compete against biological males. There should be different categories for trans athletes so we can be fair to them, as well as to biological women.

[philosslayer]

79. I could make the exact same argument re: the bathroom issue

There will be "fake" transgender females trying to get into womens bathrooms, showers, and locker rooms. So what? It will be an insignificant number, and will pale in comparison to the "real" transgender women who are just trying to get an opportunity or live their lives as they see fit.

[Nye Bevan]

67. Just as gender-segregated restrooms and locker rooms seem to be on the decline,

perhaps we are going to see the end of the concept of sex-segregated sports teams. After all, how can such teams be enforced without "genital police" which seem to be anathema to many people and especially offensive to transgender individuals? I do see the arguments on both sides, but perhaps this is a price to be paid for progress in the area of transgender rights.

[moriah]

71. The fact female only events are the "Ladies" events...

... already does suggest some inherent sexism, and I would be interested to see how integrated gender events might work.

But it's a confusing landscape, even among people who aren't fundie. I'm Pagan and know a lot of Radical Faeries. The movement overall is extremely accepting of non-binary of gender, but at the same time some sanctuaries are for "male-bodied gay cis men" and others for "female-bodied women born with wombs". When one of the latter was hosting a daytime all-gender event but sanctuary rules went back in effect after (meaning the group with two trans women couldn't stay overnight) I had them and the two cis women with them as my guests that weekend.

I mean, it's their land, and part of the point of the event was to discuss how to handle "wombyn without wombs" inclusively and fairly. But it still was inconvenient for my guests, though I certainly enjoyed their company!

[moriah]

70. I've got mixed emotions.

I definitely want every FTM to have the right to compete in male events, but some might be disqualified for the very hormone shots they take for masculinity.

I also do NOT want any kind of rule that makes it harder on female athletes with androgen insensitivity to be able to compete despite having an XY genotype in female events, as while they may have slightly more of an advantage if the androgen insensitivity is only partial, they have identified as female their whole lives and wouldn't be allowed to compete in male events because they lack male genitals and have from birth.

Bodies that did get to develop in the presence of active, useful testosterone do on the average grow taller, stronger, and stockier, though.

If it were more common and accepted for testosterone blocking and estrogen therapy to begin before puberty, I'd say that being the requirement for competition as a female would work. Most test isn't really excreted in massive quantities until then. But it's not common.

I really don't know what is fair to all athletes.

[alarimer]

72. I do too, for the same reasons you stated.

Although I am leery of treating any child with hormones just because they say they are transgendered. There would have to be some kind of evidence or assurance that this is, in fact, true and not a passing phase or whatever. I don't know that science or medicine is really very helpful right now on any of this.

Sports are a special case. Being male-to-female may give an advantage in some sports, but possibly not in others (maybe not so much in team sports, where it is a team effort, for instance). I don't think it is 100% certain that transgender women will win all the time in every sport, or even most of the time. And even then, I don't see a lot of male athletes transitioning for the sole purpose of competing against women. I think the number of transgender athletes will be very, very small.

But Title 9 is an issue. Women worked hard to even be allowed to compete and have only done so for a short time, really. Title 9 was a huge victory (but see the recent episode of the podcast Reveal for how some universities are gaming the system:

https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/womens-sports-a-mans-game/

In this one UCLA counts men on the practice basketball team (they practice against the women) as women for Title 9 accounting purposes. And there were other women counted, when they were not on any team and in fact had never even tried out.

[tallahasseedem]

82. Actually, this is extremely unfair.

My daughter runs track and if a XY were to run in the XX group it would be an unfair advantage. XY times outpace XX by at least 45 seconds to minutes.