Dems Join Big Tobacco to Kill Vaping

[Scuba]

Is this what we want from our Party?

http://bradblog.com/?p=11715

I'm joined by Jonathan H. Adler, Professor of Law and Director of the Center for Business Law & Regulation at Case Western Reserve University School of Law, to discuss the strange bedfellows who've joined forces in support of onerous new FDA regulations on life-saving vaping (e-cigarette) technology. We've discussed the topic on the show on a number of occasions in the past (most recently here), not only because half a million Americans still die each year, unnecessarily, from cigarette smoking, but because, bizarrely, it has largely been Democrats and other supposedly anti-tobacco crusaders who have been leading the deadly campaign against vaping, making it much harder for smokers to quit smoking in the bargain.

Why would Dems be fighting --- alongside Big Tobacco(!) --- to kill the vaping industry, despite scientific studies finding e-cigarettes to be at least 95% safer than smoking and the UK's Royal College of Physicians (the equivalent of the office of the Surgeon General in the U.S.) recent pronouncement: "in the interests of public health it is important to promote the use of e-cigarettes...as widely as possible as a substitute for smoking"?

In her recent article, "Democrats Work With Big Tobacco and Big Pharma to Choke the Vaping Industry," at the American Media Institute (and at the NY Observer), journalist Monica Showalter offers an answer. She details the "strange bedfellows against vaping," citing both Big Tobacco's support of the crippling new FDA regulations, along with massive donations given by Big Pharma to big name Democrats in the U.S. Senate, just as those politicians came out in favor of restrictions on vaping. The Big Pharma companies include those which control the multi-billion dollar smoking-cessation nicotine industry that produces products such as nicotine gums, patches and, yes, inhalers!

...

Also, what should be similarly frightening to Democrats and others who claim to be against smoking, according to Adler, is that the Big Tobacco companies have been very supportive of the onerous FDA regulations no being applied to vaping products. Those are costly new rules that Big Tobacco can afford to comply with, but Mom and Pop vaping shops, currently leading the industry in the U.S., simply cannot. "The major tobacco companies asked [for] and supported the FDA's proposals to regulate e-cigarettes," Adler tells me. "Indeed, Phillip Morris is largely credited with helping to write the statute under which these regulations were adopted."

[Fresh_Start]

1. Yes, we want our party to kill vaping

as well as smoking

[ProfessorGAC]

2. Who Is We?

I don't and since i support democrats, then it seems i would part of "we".

[Scuba]

3. We're promoting cigarette sales/smoking by limiting vaping. But then you knew that.

And since cigarettes are more dangerous to health than vaping, our current policy is taking the country in the wrong direction.

But then you knew that too.


So what's the point of your post?

[newthinking]

24. If this is about lung safety the tobacco industry would not be our allies

[newthinking]

25. Reason.com's take: The FDAs deadly e-cigarette regulations

http://reason.com/archives/2016/05/11/the-fdas-deadly-e-cigarette-regulations

Last month the Royal College of Physicians recognized that e-cigarettes have "the potential to prevent almost all the harm from smoking in society." But as far as the FDA is concerned, that's not good enough.

After the FDA's regulations take effect on August 8, e-cigarette companies will have two years to make the case that letting their products remain on the market is "appropriate for the protection of public health." If they hit that deadline, they will be allowed to continue selling their products for another year while the FDA reviews their applications.

The FDA is not promising to respond within a year, however, and if it doesn't the products will be "subject to enforcement action." The FDA might make an exception if "review of a pending marketing application has made substantial progress toward completion," meaning the survival of e-cigarette companies depends on the efficiency and benevolence of an agency not known for either.

Each application is expected to cost $1 million or more, and a separate application is required for every product variation. That requirement will be fatal for thousands of vape shops across the country that offer a wide variety of custom-made e-liquids in different flavors and nicotine strengths.

The regulations also doom businesses that let customers assemble their own vaporizers by choosing batteries, tanks, and heating elements, because the FDA wants information on how every possible combination interacts with every possible e-liquid. Similarly, the FDA wants to know how every e-liquid interacts with every vaping system, and it expects applicants to compare the health risks posed by their products to those posed not only by cigarettes, which are indisputably much more dangerous, but by "similar products in the same category" and by "never using tobacco products."

[blackspade]

39. What asshole wrote those regs?

Wow.

[FrodosPet]

40. If I want to bottle a poison and sell it along with a pocket bomb

The government needs to stay the hell out of it.

BTW... a few things. E-cigs use nicotine extracted from tobacco. Tobacco companies are major investors in E-cigs. And it is estimated that 70% to 90% of e-cig users continue smoking tobacco.
[hr]
E-cigarettes should be regulated in such a way as to reduce smoking of combusted tobacco products to the greatest extent possible.

http://www.tobaccoatlas.org/topic/e-cigarettes/

Electronic cigarettes, also known as e-cigarettes or electronic nicotine delivery systems, were introduced to the market by Chinese entrepreneurs in 2004 and have skyrocketed in awareness, use, and controversy over the past decade. E-cigarettes represent a booming industry, estimated at USD2.5 billion in the USA in 2014.

E-cigarettes mimic traditional cigarettes in design and are often assumed to be “safer” than traditional cigarettes, or to help smokers quit. While these health claims are implied, they are not usually stated explicitly, as this might trigger additional regulation.

Many governments, organizations, companies and consumers are uncertain how e-cigarettes should be regulated. E-cigarettes deliver nicotine, and their health effects are unknown; yet they are assuredly less harmful than traditional tobacco products that burn tobacco. Tobacco companies recognize the potential of this growing market and are investing heavily in e-cigarette brands.

On an individual level, e-cigarettes are likely less harmful to a user than traditional cigarettes, but additional research is needed about the effects of e-cigarettes, long-term consequences of use, and ingredients. Public health experts are concerned that e-cigarette use could renormalize smoking, delay or prevent cessation attempts, promote youth use, and draw former smokers back into nicotine addiction. Additionally, this booming industry is increasingly run by tobacco companies – the same companies that have long promoted dangerous products over consumer health. On the other hand, many believe that e-cigarettes represent the best hope for a disruptive technology that can begin the end of traditional smoking, saving millions of lives.

~ snip ~

[Sgent]

41. Big tobacco makes up less than 15% of the e-cig market

but the new regulation gives them a significant leg up since they are the only ones that can afford to meet the regulations.

Where do you get the 70-90% still smoke, that's neither my experience nor the stats in any publication I've seen.

[BlueSpot]

81. If 70% to 90% continue smoking

Doesn't that mean that 10% to 30% successfully quit? And that's a bad thing because...

I quit smoking after more than 35 years with the help of e-cigs. Somebody will have to explain to me how I'm worse off now for having used it.

[Chan790]

4. No, "we" don't...you might. n/t

[Bernardo de La Paz]

10. Oh? Mutate the War on Some Drugs to tobacco now that cannabis gets a pass? . :eyes: . . nt

[yeoman6987]

27. Gosh. I don't think this is a good idea

You think all the ex smokers who gave it up by tapping are going to agree with this? I don't.

[backscatter712]

36. What do you mean "We"?

Vaping is far less harmful than smoking, so it should be legal on harm-reduction grounds.

I don't object to regulation, to make sure the vaping juices don't have anything especially nasty in them, as long as the regulations aren't used as a club to give a monopoly to the tobacco companies...

[Aerows]

56. It must be nice to be holier than thou

and be a pristine never smoker.

I'll tell you what, though, I wouldn't climb up to that high horse you are on so that I could kick people that quit through vaping.

I'm alive, I quit via vaping - I tried everything. I don't even give a fuck if somebody thinks it's "cheating". I can damn well breathe, enjoy exercise and I don't shell out unnecessary thousands of dollars to kill myself anymore.

If you wonder why ex-smokers are so adamant about not going back, it's because it is a hellatiously difficult addiction to break. Sit on your high horse and pat yourself on the back that you never had to quit - I'm sure it will make you so proud of yourself to look down on the rest of those horrible people that did and made it through it.

[notadmblnd]

78. Why don't you worry about yourself and let other grown adults worry about themselves?

[bighart]

5. Is the tax revenue

from tobacco part of the equation?
I can not find a valid reason to regulate vaping to the point of killing it other than sanctimony or protection of the tax base.

[Scuba]

6. Well, there's campaign financing, for one. And that's just the above-table part.

[awoke_in_2003]

21. Yep

Congress doesn't care about taxes, just money in their pocket

[840high]

80. .+1

[Marrah_G]

13. It's the fact that our politicians are bought and paid for

I'm saying it now because next week thats against the rules.

The reason is these huge corporations want the market to themselves and congress bows to them yet again.

[Igel]

30. Eliminate a "feel-good" and "safe" route to nicotine addiction.

How's that for a reason?

It's cool among a lot of teens to become addicted, even as a lot of long-time smokers say that nicotine addiction is horrible but vaping at least allows a safer way of getting their dose. Not "safe," mind you, but "safer."

Is that a good trade off?

I'd like both squashed.

[bighart]

37. Are you also in favor

of heavy taxes and social stigma being attached to those who drink soda or eat fast food or drink too much or have other addiction issues?

Tobacco is a legal product and a heavily taxed one. Are you prepared to pony up the dollars smokers pay in taxes to support children's health insurance?

What other legal products do you have a problem with that you would like to see squashed?

[beevul]

50. The addiction isn't the same.

It's cool among a lot of teens to become addicted, even as a lot of long-time smokers say that nicotine addiction is horrible but vaping at least allows a safer way of getting their dose. Not "safe," mind you, but "safer."

Addiction to the nicotine from vaping, and addiction to nicotine from actual combustion of tobacco, are two very very different things. They're so different, in fact, that they're barely comparable. Vape nicotine addiction is quite similar to the addiction one gets to caffeine.

Do we go after coffee next?

[Jesus Malverde]

65. Taxes are a part of this...

Since ever carton of tobacco subsidizes a vast array of special interests. E-juice not so much.

[JVS]

67. Hey, a lot of poor children depend on those cigarette taxes to buy them health insurance.

On the other hand, smokers as a demographic skew toward lower incomes, and high tobacco prices can really fuck up the finances of poor people who are addicted to cigarettes and have fewer resources to help quit than wealthier smokers.

[bighart]

73. I never seem to get an answer to the question

if the high-horse riding smoker haters are ready to pay the taxes smokers pay for worthy programs like children's health care.

[earthshine]

7. Our corporatist Dems at work.

Because of e-cigs, I was able to quit smoking after 30 years of addiction.

<Drops mic >

[meow2u3]

20. Where's the consistency regarding harm reduction, Dems?

Vaping freed me from the shackles of tobacco after 38 years being hooked. IDK why corporatist "Democrats" would "regulate" vapor products when it's a proven fact that vapor products contain no tobacco, no smoke, and thus, no cancer-causing agents. You'd think Democrats would get on board with tobacco harm reduction the same way they embraced harm reduction relating to STD's (condum use), auto fatalities (seat belt laws and mandatory safety features built into cars, such as air bags and anti-lock brakes) and drugs (needle exchanges).

With the irrational hatred of e-cigs and other vapor products, Democrats are coming across sounding like harm reduction hypocrites. Either that, or the Turd Way Dems are in the pockets of Big Pharma, who makes useless smoking cessation drugs which cause potentially fatal side effects (Chantix, anyone?).

[Dr Hobbitstein]

34. Helped me, too.

I still vape on occasion, but I'm down to 0% nicotine, and I refill my tank MAYBE once every 2-3 weeks (I use it in social situations when people are smoking, or if I end up having drinks with friends).

[Aerows]

57. It helped me.

I wouldn't pick up a cigarette if you threatened to shoot me. I *still* have a little shrine set up - it's a pack of sealed up with packing tape Marlboro Reds with 6 in them and the date that I quit written on them.

I don't hardly vape at all, I have the lowest nicotine dose they make, and it is purely for the same reasons you do.

[Vattel]

8. Idiots. God forbid people's lives should be saved.

[bunnies]

19. Wheres the money in that?

[Glamrock]

9. Well,

at least it's "real" dems protecting the tobacco industry instead of some johnny-come-lately!

[Marrah_G]

11. Fuck them for killing small businesses

Big Tobacco knows it has the money for all the testing and crap that little businesses do not.

I no longer have a party and this is one example why.

I will NEVER buy their products. I will make my own.

[sulphurdunn]

12. Sadly, your years of smoking

are a very profitable economic activity for a lot of financial interests from the day you first light up to the day they put you in the ground.

[pintobean]

16. And very heavily taxed.

[djean111]

14. Don't look now - but the Democratic Party has been taken over by the Third Way, and shares of

it have been sold to the highest bidders. it is really just another corporation, run by the management to enrich the shareholders.

We are not shareholders.

[Festivito]

15. We don't have Republicans and Democrats. We have Repub-nuts and Repub-lite. eom

Each striving to get just enough bucks to stay in power and do a little good if they can.

Ends up being very little.

[Iggo]

17. Now if they would just join vaping to kill tobacco...

[valerief]

18. New Democrats in action.

[Dustlawyer]

22. The problem not mentioned so far is that young adults and even some HS

Kids are getting hooked on nicotine through vaping. I think there should be restrictions designed to limit access by young folks, but done so we do not create a group that switches to smoking to get their nicotine.

[yeoman6987]

33. How do you know they are using nicotine? Thats the problem with nannies. They don't know facts.

[Dustlawyer]

35. OK sure, the teen vaping phenomenon is just a hoax, you got me!

I am sure none of them are using the vapes with nicotine. Sarcasm

[Mariana]

42. OK, that may be a problem, but where's the evidence?

Seriously, how many HS kids are vaping nicotine? Does anyone know? Every time I've seen it mentioned in print it was very vague and more about how kids "may" want to take up vaping or how some of the flavors "may" appeal to them. And if there are significant numbers of them, have any of them been asked why they're vaping? How many of them are former smokers (there are still teen smokers, you know) who have switched to vaping? How many are using nicotine free liquid? Does anyone know the answer to any of these questions?

[beevul]

51. Lets define "hooked" for the audience.

The problem not mentioned so far is that young adults and even some HS Kids are getting hooked on nicotine through vaping.

As I said in another post above:

The addiction isn't the same. Addiction to the nicotine from vaping, and addiction to nicotine from actual combustion of tobacco, are two very very different things. They're so different, in fact, that they're barely comparable. Vape nicotine addiction is quite similar to the addiction one gets to caffeine.

Do we go after coffee next?

[Major Nikon]

62. Before you know it, they'll be drinking coffee too

[Delver Rootnose]

23. And of course....

...under the new corporate rules being implemented here soon about all you could say is 'that is bad policy' or 'it is unwise' and not comment on the money motivations of democrats because this site is abandoning the small d democratic for the capital, pun intended, D of party democrat. But I guess ownership has its privledges.

But in a last gasp paen to truth you should rename the site 'Democrat orthodoxy'

[Renew Deal]

26. I'm not convinced vaping is a good thing

It's a beginners cigarette full of mysterious chemicals.

[OriginalGeek]

29. I think the point is not that it's good

just that it's better than cigarettes. By a lot.

I'm open to regulation that reveal the mysterious chemicals and then seeing what we have from there but I don't feel Big Dem and Big Tobacco really care about mysterious chemicals - they care about people buying cigarettes and are trying to eliminate the competition.

NB - I don't vape and I quit smoking in 2003 except I will have 3 or 4 cigars a year. My son quit smoking a few years ago and he used vaping some to help with that although he wasn't as into it as some of the guys I see with these several-hundred dollar rigs. I'd hate to see vaping unfairly squashed just to preserve tobacco companies interests. I don't even know why they aren't on board - Don't vapers still need the tobacco companies to get their nicotine from?

[Mariana]

45. Nicotine is cheap.

It's not nearly as profitable as ready-made cigarettes.

The tobacco companies have put out e-cigs, and their e-cigs suck. I think they're making them bad on purpose. I'm convinced they're deliberately selling shitty e-cigs and placing them everywhere people buy cigarettes so smokers who want to try vaping will buy one of their crappy products, try it, hate it, decide vaping isn't for them, and just continue smoking. It takes some effort to find a good rig and a liquid you really like. People who've tried one of those horrible cheap disposable things from the convenience store probably have no idea that there are much better products out there.

[OriginalGeek]

53. Ahh, ok yep that would explain it.

I would have been one of those people that thought that convenience store crap was the real thing except one of my co-workers has the full get-up. He's always buying new parts and mixing and matching and trying new liquids (some of which I think smell terrific lol). He'd occasionally come sit in my office and get a few quick puffs in because I didn't mind and it is a loooong way to the official company smoking area.

[Mariana]

58. It's the only explanation that makes sense.

I don't believe they can't build a good device. I can only think they want to put people off vaping.

[NCTraveler]

28. The struggle of being a progressive.

Calling for industry regulations is frowned upon by many of our members.

The E cig industry needs to be regulated more. There is simply no question about that.

Progressives Against Corporate Regulation

It's a crappy slogan.

[Beearewhyain]

31. Just wanted to add my voice to those who

are able to quit smoking because of vaping. I am now 2+ years smoke free due exclusively to vape. I had tried everything, and I do mean everything, that was available for smoking cessation and nothing stuck. While it can be argued that vaping is not the perfect solution, the substantial drop in harm as compared to smoking is hard to deny.

Now, for those of you that hate smoking here are some of the benefits to you. I don't stink of tobacco when I get into the elevator with you after popping out for a vape. Unless you are next to me you won't smell anything, unlike the smell of smokes you get from 100 yards away. No second hand smoke. And arguably the most important, a much smaller drain on healthcare resources as a result of smoking.

Of course none of that matters if you think nicotine addiction is a matter of a moral character flaw that deserves some form of punishment and deprivation as part of the process of redemption.

[Mariana]

47. Re: moral character flaw, punishment and deprivation...

Remember when they said all the laws and restrictions and the social pressure were about secondhand smoke affecting other people besides the smoker? It's becoming very clear that that for some of them, that was a lie all along. It was always about punishing smokers. It's very obvious now that there's a way to "smoke" without producing any smoke at all, and people are actually enjoying quitting smoking. They can't stand that.

[Invincibility]

32. No more nanny state rubbish

How about, you know....letting us have the freedom to do what we want with our bodies and lives? All cracking down on vaping will do is get more people hooked on traditional tobacco products. Just like how everything else in the war on drugs tends to make the situation worse.

[blackspade]

38. 95% safer.

So new regulations come down to money in the pockets of politicians.

Lovely.....

[bigwillq]

43. Folks should be able to vape if they choose to (nt)

[bighart]

44. But But But

It LOOKS like smoking and we can't have people LOOKING like they are smoking because, well we just can't.

[Mariana]

48. You can't have people quitting smoking and enjoying it.

Smokers are supposed to suffer, didn't you know that? Even after they've quit.

[bighart]

49. How dare they enjoy something bad for them!

I think we should berate and ostracize them at every opportunity.

[Major Nikon]

64. Won't someone think of the children?

[sendero]

46. Democrats...

.... always looking out for the little guy. Sure.

[artyteacher]

52. vaping is potentially VERY dangerous...

And should be regulated.

[Aerows]

59. Life is potentially very dangerous

and smoking is deadly.

I'd say that I'd like to sit next to you and spew tons of smoke at you to prove my point, but I don't smoke anymore. I don't stink of cigarettes, I don't constantly hack, and honestly? I really don't give a fuck about a holier than thou attitude in regards to saving my own life by quitting smoking via vaping.

I hope everybody gets the opportunity to quit before they outlaw vaping and quit committing slow suicide because the tobacco industry wants to make a buck.

[artyteacher]

63. are ypu still vaping though?

Ever heard of popcorn lung?

[Aerows]

69. Do you sit on your ass pretty much all of the time?

Because I can assure you that sitting on your ass is a whole lot worse than attempting to berate people that are getting in on 5K runs. And are committed to beating their times.

It's a free activity, and you will meet nice people.

You won't meet them by doing nothing and shouting at others online about how, "You need to do better."

If you are going to rant that I should join the real world, you should have already been there.

[Aerows]

72. I hope the lack of response

means that you decided to get up and do something beside judging people you have never met online.

If so, I did a service to humanity when I reminded a fellow human being that we are all human beings with our flaws, character deficits and quirks.

[Warpy]

54. Regulate does not equal death, contrary to what Fox tells you all

Democrats want to keep cheap units that burst into flames out of the US, along with suspect juices that coat your lungs with hydrocarbons and other things you don't want in there.

[Marrah_G]

66. Actually what the regulations do is place costs that no small business can afford

All that will be left is ejuice made by big corporations. Personally I will simply start making my own.

[Aerows]

71. Rather than getting back on cancer sticks?

I'll be right beside you.

[Aerows]

55. Vaping is a legitimate smoking cessation product.

I am so happy I quit smoking, I wouldn't go back if you pointed a gun at me, because frankly, I was killing myself on cigarettes.

Did I vape? Hell yes, I did. I did every damn thing under the sun to quit, and I've been off of them for a year and a half.

I woke up from dreams afraid that I had smoked, and was glad to realize it was just a damn dream.

Of course big tobacco doesn't want people to vape because the vast majority of people are so fucking glad to be rid of the expense both financially and physically of their slow suicide sticks, they are well aware nobody wants to go back to smoking.

I won't even pretend to be polite about anyone that wants to judge people who quit permanently through vaping - you can fuck right the hell off if you want to tell people they need to be chained to emphysema sticks because they have to "take the low road" and vape to help them quit. I have no fucking use for that attitude.

[Mariana]

60. There was a person on this board a few years ago

that actually told another poster who asked about vaping that they should just continue smoking, if they couldn't just quit cold turkey. Can you imagine? I've never forgotten that. Might as well have said outright, "I hate you and I want you to die."

[Aerows]

61. There are some folks on mighty tall horses today

drowning the rest of us with two feet on the ground in horse shit.

[Yo_Mama]

68. From a public health standpoint, this is the stupidest attempt ever.

Using e-cigarettes is the the people who cannot quit quit smoking. It is almost infinitely healthier.

The proof is in the pudding - smoking numbers are suddenly dropping hard.

The people doing this want to preserve the taxation rather than improve health.

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/tables/trends/cig_smoking/

[Aerows]

70. We quit, we stay quit

and most of us give up vaping, as well.

I wouldn't wish a cigarette addiction on my worst enemy.

[Yo_Mama]

75. This is why I am anti Anti-vapers. I can only see it as an attack on human freedom

It's as if we had a magic food that helped morbidly obese people lose weight, and keep it off. And then we launched a campaign to prevent people from getting it because it ENCOURAGES their EATING HABIT!

The human error is when cigarette taxes were allowed to become too profitable - there are groups out there that have a strong fiscal motive to keep smokers addicted. That last 20% that couldn't quit mostly can with e-cigarettes, so now there's a war on e-cigarettes.

Sick. Just sick and disgusting.

[Yo_Mama]

76. Yes, most people move to vaping, then to low nicotine, then to no-nicotine or no vaping.

It's the most brilliant, successful method of quitting smoking ever. It really, really works.

[Aerows]

77. That's why it pisses off big tobacco.

They know they are going to lose the source of revenue they have sucked the literal life out of for decades.

[Aerows]

74. I'm going to kick this

Because this is a betrayal of all that our "party" claims to be.

Big money over individual people.

If this is the Democratic party, I'm going to have to begin questioning my support of it.

[Eleanors38]

79. Vaping, WOD, Guns. The Party has a prohi skidmark a foot wide. Better deal with it now...

or it becomes a political stance ripe for exploitation... by the other side.

[Aerows]

83. My life was saved by vaping instead of smoking.

If you stand with the party of just die already, I won't be standing with you.

[Aerows]

82. I'll be honest - if I had reason to be butthurt?

it would be over this law which would prevent people from following in my footsteps and quit the cigarettes that are killing them.

I care about living, breathing human beings. For a while, I have thought my political party did, too.

It appears that my political party of Democrats only care about fundraising, the people that die on your watch be damned.

What the hell are you doing!?!?