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midnight

(26,624 posts)
Fri Jun 10, 2016, 11:55 PM Jun 2016

Prisons would "grind to a halt" without the use of prison labor.

"In prisons across the country, incarcerated people are paid as little as 15 to 45 cents an hour. Even worse, in Texas, the minimum wage for a prisoner starts at zero dollars. However, these wages aren't always what employers are paying to hire prisoners. Employers in states like Alabama, Colorado, and South Carolina pay the federal hourly minimum wage for prisoner labor. However, the wage is paid to the state, and prisoners see only a fraction of that check. In Alabama, the Department of Corrections is authorized to take up to 80 percent of a prisoner's income, half of which can go to "offset the costs of the inmate's incarceration."

In prisons across the country, incarcerated people are paid as little as 15 to 45 cents an hour.
Corrections departments across the country have laws stating they can take part or most of prisoners' wages to pay for the upkeep of the prison or room and board. Incarcerating the highest rate of prisoners in the world comes at a cost, so states have increasingly used the prisoners' own labor to lower prison costs. Prolonged work stoppages threaten to increase these costs and create a more expensive prison system -- some states, like Alabama with its high budget deficit, simply can't afford that.

Two weeks after May's strike ended, the warden at Holman Correctional Facility, Carter Davenport, retired. Davenport had arrived at Holman in December 2015, and just three months later, a major prison uprising erupted where a prisoner stabbed him (he recovered). Before Holman, he was the warden at St. Clair Correctional Facility from 2010 to 2015. In 2012, he was suspended for two days after punching a handcuffed inmate in the face, according to an Alabama news site. Equal Justice Initiative, a nonprofit in Alabama, sued Davenport, as well as the Alabama Department of Corrections, in 2014 for facilitating a culture of violence at St. Clair (the lawsuit is ongoing). That same year, with violence at St. Clair increasing, the nonprofit called for Davenport to be replaced as warden.

Last year, Charlotte Morrison of the Equal Justice Initiative criticized Davenport's leadership at St. Clair. "[Those] in charge of leading these facilities are creating abusive, dangerous environments," Morrison said. "Warden Davenport, somebody who punched a handcuffed inmate in the face, that's the kind of leadership he models. And what we see at the prison is control through intimidation and violence." Prisoners at Holman had similar opinions about Davenport, so his retirement was a major victory for them."

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/36346-forget-hunger-strikes-what-prisons-fear-most-is-labor-strikes

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Prisons would "grind to a halt" without the use of prison labor. (Original Post) midnight Jun 2016 OP
K&R Solly Mack Jun 2016 #1
How is this not slavery? Initech Jun 2016 #2
It's the new slavery. Fuddnik Jun 2016 #3
It is slavery n/t malaise Jun 2016 #15
Slavery is legal gollygee Jun 2016 #23
This message was self-deleted by its author ljm2002 Jun 2016 #31
Oh for crying out loud. Are we to pay them $15/h now? AgadorSparticus Jun 2016 #4
I think you may be missing the main point Fumesucker Jun 2016 #5
I am not sure I am understanding then. How would it create more inmates? AgadorSparticus Jun 2016 #6
We even made our prisons FOR PROFIT Drahthaardogs Jun 2016 #7
Yep. I see this. And not surprising when we privatize corrections. AgadorSparticus Jun 2016 #10
For one thing, does it really make sense to put a kid who sold a dimebag of pot Drahthaardogs Jun 2016 #13
This I see and it makes no sense whatsoever. AgadorSparticus Jun 2016 #14
Well if you are running a private prison or invested in one jwirr Jun 2016 #28
Thank you for being able to comprehend this profitable exploitation. midnight Jun 2016 #29
So why do nations that treat prisoners the best have lower recidivism rates? Major Nikon Jun 2016 #9
B ecause they have access to effective rehabilitative opportunities. AgadorSparticus Jun 2016 #16
In other words the emphasis is on rehabilitation rather than punishment Major Nikon Jun 2016 #17
Yes, but rehabilitating doesn't necessarily mean people are entitled AgadorSparticus Jun 2016 #18
Entitlement has nothing to do with it Major Nikon Jun 2016 #19
I don't agree with Joe Arpaio. And he certainly doesn't represent the majority of correctional sys. AgadorSparticus Jun 2016 #20
So are you saying you think his methods work? Because they don't. Major Nikon Jun 2016 #21
What??!?!! Where do you get that I agree with Arpaio? AgadorSparticus Jun 2016 #22
... Major Nikon Jun 2016 #24
Exactly. They aren't being treated badly. That is why they come back. AgadorSparticus Jun 2016 #25
Personally I think we can learn more from Norway than Arpaio. YMMV. Major Nikon Jun 2016 #26
I don't disagree. But they have a social infrastructure to assist AgadorSparticus Jun 2016 #27
Wasn't that the same argument made by Southern plantations no_hypocrisy Jun 2016 #8
Grinding to a halt sounds good to me lame54 Jun 2016 #11
Good! Fuck the Prison-Industrial Complex and their neo-slavery! Odin2005 Jun 2016 #12
It would be a great change to see the prison industry grind to a halt…. midnight Jun 2016 #30

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
23. Slavery is legal
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:38 PM
Jun 2016

The 13th amendment leaves a loophole. And it's easy to get people convicted if you control the criminal justice system, so really, slavery is legal.

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Response to Initech (Reply #2)

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
4. Oh for crying out loud. Are we to pay them $15/h now?
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:15 AM
Jun 2016

For the record, they are not forced to work. This is NOT slave labor. But let me tell you, those $0.30/hr jobs are hard to come by. Not everyone gets a job. They fight for them. And inmates are treated fairly well. In fact, I am sure they are living better than most people in poverty. They eat 3 square meals a day, have cable, exercise with gym equipment, and have full medical care access. They don't worry about how they will pay for the electric bill, their medications or their hernial repairs. They don't worry about the cost of their insulin supplies. And when they are stressed out, they go see a behavioral specialist. I don't know about you, but my insurance doesn't cover shit. And I pay a Hella lot for it.

Will they have the same level of comfort or convenience as you and I? God, I hope not. They are INMATES. They are there to pay for a crime they committed. They should be treated with respect and treated humanely, but they do NOT have the same rights as you and I. And they SHOULDN'T. They are in prison paying for a crime. I am not going to be sympathetic to criminals to the point of not honoring the victims.

The reality is, I see the vast majority of inmates when they are working and they take great pride in what they do. I have never seen floors waxed so brilliantly in my life. Hospitals ain't got nothing on prisons when it comes to cleanliness and meticulousness. Many look forward to doing their jobs just as you and I get satisfaction in doing ours. Even if it is a shit job, there is satisfaction that you did it. It is an accomplishment. And this is why having a job is so important. It gives people a sense of purpose and accomplishnent. It is not always about the money.

In this environment, it is hard enough to rehabilitate inmates to the outside world. We don't need to make prison a lovely place. Recidivism rates are bad enough. I don't doubt that there are some bad apples working in the prison system. There will always be. But when we have recidivism rates of 2/3 within 3 years and 3/4 within 5 years, we are doing something wrong. And it is not because we are paying inmates $0.30/hr.

http://www.nij.gov/topics/corrections/recidivism/pages/welcome.aspx

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
5. I think you may be missing the main point
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 04:31 AM
Jun 2016

The point is when you get very low cost labor from inmates it makes for a perverse incentive to create more inmates in order to exploit their cheap labor.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
7. We even made our prisons FOR PROFIT
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 06:36 AM
Jun 2016

There is a huge lobby that wants to keep as many people in jail as possible.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
10. Yep. I see this. And not surprising when we privatize corrections.
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 10:17 AM
Jun 2016

How are they planning on keeping people in jail?

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
13. For one thing, does it really make sense to put a kid who sold a dimebag of pot
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 10:24 AM
Jun 2016

in jail for three years at $120,000? Now the kid gets out, has a record, cannot get a job, etc. It is STUPID. The prison lobby's greatest fear is legalized recreational drugs.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
14. This I see and it makes no sense whatsoever.
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 10:37 AM
Jun 2016

I asked because I wasn't sure if there was something else that maybe I am not aware of. But yes. This is why Obama moved to release 300 some nonviolent prisoners earlier this year. Thank god.

One of the problems I see is when I talk to people. They are quick to incarcerate people. Just throw them in the slammer and throw the key away. There is a great deal of judgement and very little compassion from a lot of people . But then again, I am also from a red state. It goes with the mindset.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
28. Well if you are running a private prison or invested in one
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:23 PM
Jun 2016

then it makes sense to you. You are making money. It is a belief held by many who are investors.

BTW did you know that this was not limited to prisons? When mentally ill people were confined to institutions they were also forced to work under the same conditions prisoners are today. My aunt was put in an institution with only a signed petition from her husband and 10 of his friends. She worked in the Cherokee Institution in Iowa for 25 years and received absolutely not one cent of pay.

Her crime she wore shorts in the summer while being obese.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
9. So why do nations that treat prisoners the best have lower recidivism rates?
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 07:18 AM
Jun 2016

This whole idea that we just don't treat prisoners shitty enough really just falls kinda flat.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
16. B ecause they have access to effective rehabilitative opportunities.
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 11:12 AM
Jun 2016

That addresses reentry better than what we have here in the US? Here is an excerpt from someone who worked in that system:

"After release from prison, life often becomes more difficult for ex-offenders that it was while locked-up. The three most pressing re-entry challenges are: a place to live/housing; drug treatment/medical care; and employment. A deficiency in any one of these three is a serious risk factor to relapse."

Reducing Recidivism: The Challenge of Successful Prisoner Re-Entry
"Reducing Recidivism: The Challenge of Successful Prisoner Re-Entry" - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-heroux/reducing-recidivism-the-c_b_929510.html

What I find interesting is how effective the Scandinavians approach to corrections and recidivism. Granted, it looks like we are dealing with 2 very different systems and populations so it can be hard to compare outrightly. But you can't argue with success. We also have a tendency to privatize everything and then make it all about profits, too. So, that needs to be factored in as well. This is a complex, multifactorial problem.

Here is a great article on it. And, what I find interesting, is it seems at the core is a deep rooted American fear of the rise in the people of color. I don't think that it is just coincidence that at a time when racial strife in the U.S. seems to be peaking, that we have an unprecedented growing inmate population that is disproportionately minority based.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why-scandinavian-prisons-are-superior/279949/

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
17. In other words the emphasis is on rehabilitation rather than punishment
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 11:19 AM
Jun 2016

Which kinda destroys the idea that in order to reduce recidivism we need to make prison a shittier place than it already is.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
18. Yes, but rehabilitating doesn't necessarily mean people are entitled
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 11:34 AM
Jun 2016

To luxuries like tv, cable, Internet. I was raised that those things are luxuries. Not necessities. On the outside, those things are earned. You have to work and pay for it. It doesn't come free.

I guess I am not understanding how it is shitty in prison. I see it and I can tell you many people live far worse on the outside. People live in hellholes that are barely habitable. They live in pest ridden places with splotchy plumbing and electricity. There are people that go hungry. HUNGRY. In the U.S.! It astounds me how people in a first world country like the US would have to live in such 3rd world conditions. The prisons I have seen so far, are immaculate and offer all the necessities.

If anything, I see why they WANT to come back in.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
19. Entitlement has nothing to do with it
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 12:51 PM
Jun 2016

It's simply a matter of whether you want to turn loose a hardened criminal or someone who is rehabilitated. Treating prisoners like shit is a recipe for the former. Whatever conditions poor people live in has exactly zero to do with rehabilitation. It's nothing more than a red herring used to justify flawed ideas that have never worked and never will. The idea that prisoners should be treated a shitty as possible because some poor people live in shanties is exactly the flawed reasoning Joe Arpaio uses to house inmates in shitty tents, feed them shitty food, and do everything else he can to make their stay miserable. It doesn't work. Treat people sub human while in prison produces anti-social ex-convicts. Surprise! Not.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
20. I don't agree with Joe Arpaio. And he certainly doesn't represent the majority of correctional sys.
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 12:59 PM
Jun 2016

He is a bullshit anomaly. If inmates were treated that badly across the board, recidivism wouldn't be so high.

Entitlement has everything to do with it. If all the needs are met, everything else is entitlement. How are inmates treated badly? ...outside of Arpaio's bullshit?

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
21. So are you saying you think his methods work? Because they don't.
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:16 PM
Jun 2016

Even a study he commissioned himself determined they don't work.

Regardless of what you think of the Nordic prison system, it works. Warehousing criminals in sub-human conditions doesn't. The results speak for themselves.

http://www.dropoutprevention.org/engage/incarceration-within-american-and-nordic-prisons/

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
22. What??!?!! Where do you get that I agree with Arpaio?
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:34 PM
Jun 2016

My first sentence is even, "I DON'T agree with Joe Arpaio". I think that is pretty clear.

It is a no brainer that treating humans badly doesn't get good results. On many levels. It is not a good form if disciplining children. That is why torture is not an effective or reliable form of extracting intelligence. And it will not be effective in rehabilitation.

What I think you misunderstood is that I said I said he is an anomaly. Most of corrections does not operate like him. They DON'T subscribe to his tactics. And it is not fair to the systems out there to be clumped with the likes of Arpaio.

But, I do think Arpaio is effective. Not at anything to do with corrections or inmate care. He is nothing but a political statement that his constituents respond to. Trump folks love him. But he is being sued right now. I believe the attorney general is going after him and they aren't letting him off the hook.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
27. I don't disagree. But they have a social infrastructure to assist
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:06 PM
Jun 2016

In the rehabilitative and reentry of inmates back to society. We don't have that. Going back to my original post, we have an attitude/bravado/racial problem. 'MERICA!!! That's what we have.

no_hypocrisy

(46,061 posts)
8. Wasn't that the same argument made by Southern plantations
Sat Jun 11, 2016, 07:04 AM
Jun 2016

to argue against either paying their slaves or releasing them as property?

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