He hated gay people. His brand of religion said that was okay.

[msanthrope]

Last edited Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:20 PM - Edit history (1)

It's one from column A and one from column B.

Hate can be complex.

Note.....I didn't mention a particular religion. I happen to think the whole Abramahic scheme is fucked.

[boston bean]

1. yep. I don't know why it has to be only one or the other. To me, both seem to apply here.

[msanthrope]

4. Hate, like people is complex.....no doubt he sought affirmation of his hate, and he found it. nt

[uponit7771]

2. ALL "brands" of religion can say its OK to hate "others" ... I don't see any evidence he was a devou

... devout Muslim either.

tia

[msanthrope]

9. Yeah.....I don't see too many Buddhists or Pagans on this path, do you?

Seems like it's endemic to the Abramahic religions.

[uponit7771]

10. Yes, my experience ... 9 billion people on Earth ... you know that right? tia

[GummyBearz]

27. Seems like it's endemic to one specific Abramahic religion

nt

[octoberlib]

42. Just one religion ?

You haven't met any Christian evangelicals, then. They're every bit as bad.

[GummyBearz]

49. I haven't seen one shoot up a gay night club in a while

I do hate when they knock on my door and want to talk about the bible. That seems a little less severe than what happened last night.

[octoberlib]

58. They haven't shot anybody.... yet.

But the most hateful rhetoric I've ever heard came from a bunch of Evangelicals at one of our city council meetings to pass a gay rights bill. They were threatening and harassing LGBTQ activists.

[GummyBearz]

64. Words vs bullets

Didn't you ever hear that sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?

I'd rather get harassed than shot. Maybe you feel differently. You could try out both and come back with a definitive answer.

[840high]

79. Where did they kill?

[ButterflyBlood]

39. Uh ever heard of the 969 Movement?

Sri Lanka has also had incidents of hate crimes from Buddhists and attacks on Hindu temples.

[unc70]

41. Not looking in the right places

Try looking in places like Sri Lanka or Myanmar. There you will find radical fundamentalist Buddhist monks leading violent attacks against other religious groups (Hindi, Muslim, Christian). The world is a complex place.

[MH1]

51. Not a lot of Buddhists, but check out Myanmar.

http://time.com/3090990/how-an-extremist-buddhist-network-is-sowing-hatred-across-asia/

I don't know about Pagans but suspect I could find examples there as well, if I looked hard enough.

I think it is endemic to extremist religions, period.

I suspect one could draw some mapping between the strength of certain statements in the religion's holy texts, to the prevalence of violent extremism in that religion. For example, Buddhist tenets generally point to non-violent conflict resolution (I think; I'm not an expert); in Christianity there are specific verses that leave judgment of others to God, not the believer. Of course those are in the New Testament to my knowledge; so fundamentalists (who weight the Old Testament at least as important as the New, which makes no sense to me), tend to ignore those passages or interpret them differently.

[msanthrope]

71. I'm guessing the 911 call support g ISIS is dispositive. nt

[uponit7771]

72. No its direct evidence and not speculative, sounds like this guy is an all around asshole

[mucifer]

3. Do we know he was a Muslim and not another religion? Do we know if he was religious?

I'm just saying you don't have to be religious to hate.

[uponit7771]

11. Right, I've seen no evidence that he was even Muslim or religions or devout...

[ForgoTheConsequence]

63. We have a good idea.

Deirdre WalshVerified account
‏@deirdrewalshcnn
Rep Schiff, top Dem on House Intel, says on CNN he was told shooter made pledge of allegiance to ISIL,cautions still early in investigation

[milestogo]

76. His ex-wife said that he was not religious.

Lots of homophobes are not religious.

[Person 2713]

82. Others report he was not very religious . Angry snd history of violence yes

[Southerncomfy]

5. Father says it has nothing to do with relogion... sad

https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/742004787563139072

[randome]

8. Daddy raised a mass murderer so his opinion is suspect.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Southerncomfy]

16. Please don't get me wrong.... I don't agree, just linking it

[randome]

17. Understood!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[msanthrope]

12. Yeah.....I'm gonna go ask Brock Turner's dad about his son, too. nt

[randome]

6. Agree completely.

A hate crime usually occurs as an isolated incident, such as shooting your neighbor who always offended you by behaving in an unapproved manner.

But mass murder of strangers on this scale? That's something else.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[auntpurl]

7. We don't know that!

He might have been an atheist for all we know!

FFS, the LAST thing I want to do is defend Islamic extremists! Jesus, they are murderous shitheads. But this is all speculation. We know it was a hate crime. We know it may have been motivated by either Islamic extremism or plain old homophobia. But we don't know which (or both) yet!

Speculation like this leads to anti-Muslim sentiment and peaceful American Muslims being endangered.

[uponit7771]

14. Amen, I've not seen any evidence saying this was religiously connected or that the shooter was...

... even Muslim.

[msanthrope]

18. The selfies of him in garb? nt

[uponit7771]

20. What "garb"!?!?! Muslim "garb"!? Isn't that stereotyping? tia

[msanthrope]

23. How many Muslims do you actually know? Garb is the term used to describe traditonal

dress. Hell, I've had clients specifically request they be allowed to wear "garb" in court. I guess I should have told them they were being stereotypical

[uponit7771]

25. 12 and they don't wear "garb" either, street closes etc... Dylan Roof was a Christian and no one sai

... said his hate crime was tied to Christianity

[randome]

26. I'd point out, however, that Islam is more intertwined with culture than Christianity is.

It's more ritualistic, more intrusive, more monolithic. Christianity has some of that, as well, but not, imo, as thoroughly as does Islam.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[uponit7771]

29. This is NOT my experience, Christianity is just as bad were terrorism has been accepted

[randome]

37. I don't have a problem with calling them both out, then.

I get your point, though. The only Muslim/Islamic individuals I know are co-workers, some of them citizens, some of them not, and I don't know any of them very closely.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[uponit7771]

40. Dylann Roof was a devout Christian, I have a problem calling them out when there's no evidence that

... they were involved.

No one called Roof out on his devout Christianity after his mass murder and Christians have been involved in terrorism and mass murder for the start

[randome]

43. The argument could perhaps be made, however....

...that since Christianity is 'our' religion (note the use of quotes around that), that we give it more leeway -consciously or not- than with other religions. Something to consider, maybe.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[msanthrope]

34. Parents from Afghanistan. nt

[msanthrope]

32. His parents are from Afghanistan. Their citizenship has not been determined yet.

Mateen was a US citizen, however.
.

[uponit7771]

33. irrelevant to my point, no evidence that Islam had anything to do with the shooting just as no evide

... evidence Christianity had anything to do with Roofs

[msanthrope]

21. His selfies in garb, the FBI. Give it a few hours, more coming out. nt

[auntpurl]

22. Yes, GIVE IT A FEW HOURS.

Sorry, but take your own advice!

[kwassa]

74. He has a selfie in a NYPD polo shirt, too ...

Does this make him a cop?

[msanthrope]

75. Just an asshole. nt

[David__77]

30. 50 people in a gay bar were more than endangered.

I agree with letting the facts come out before the government makes a conclusion.

The fbi spokesperson already indicated that there's a likelihood of connection to Islamic ideology. I personally think it's almost certain that there is. I can't imagine anyone finding that surprising. Islamist extremists will exterminate anyone in their kill lists.

[uponit7771]

36. Dylann Roof was a devout Christian, no evidence there that Christianity had anything to do with

... his mass murder.

I'd like to see the evidence first not some peoples "statements"

[David__77]

44. I understand your perspective.

I'm having a bit of an emotional reaction as a gay man. That doesn't mean that I'm not responsible for my own reactions and statement - I am.

I do think that this is an action motivated by radical Islamic ideology. I think that this will be borne out soon.

[JustAnotherGen]

52. No words

[David__77]

45. I understand your perspective.

I'm having a bit of an emotional reaction as a gay man. That doesn't mean that I'm not responsible for my own reactions and statement - I am.

I do think that this is an action motivated by radical Islamic ideology. I think that this will be borne out soon.

[MellowDem]

47. If a person can be a devout Christian...

and murder people based on a racist ideology, that definitely says something about Christianity.

When a religion promotes hate, bigotry, and violence against all sorts of groups, and they worship a God that commits genocide, then the religion has to take part of the blame for the culture it promotes, no matter how "devout" a person considers themselves.

The Abrahamic religions are partially to blame for a lot of the hate and violence in the world we see today.

[uponit7771]

48. None of the faiths PROMOTE hate, they're twisted by people who hate to legitimize hatred IMHE

[MellowDem]

55. Of course they do...

hell, the Abrahamic God genocides the entire population of the Earth, commits infanticide, dehumanizes women, and calls homsexual acts an "abomination", anyone who doesn't think these and other things continue to promote hate in all sorts of ways seem to either be defending religious privilege or unwilling to stop identifying with said religions.

[auntpurl]

38. It's not surprising, no.

It just may not be true. Waiting for the facts to come in is the responsible thing to do, in my opinion.

[David__77]

46. OK, I agree, for politicians.

I'm speaking as a private citizen. I believe that it's the case based on the information that is available to me.

I think that the organizations and ideologies of radical Islam are dangerous and destructive and should be completely eliminated from society. I think that the US should stop allying for the purveyors or these ideologies and the funders of these organizations.

[uponit7771]

50. What information? I'm open to calling it what it is but I don't seem Islam involved here...

... thx in advance for any input

[David__77]

59. Not much. The FBI agent indicating he may have leaning toward Islamic extremism.

I'm not conducting a criminal investigation. My criteria in making an evaluation are different.

An FBI agent indicated that he may have leaning toward Islamic extremism. An anonymous source indicated that he was previously under investigation; also, I note that these investigations were closed.

http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/omar-mateen-pulse-orlando-florida-shooting-gunman-attack-name-photos-facebook-motive-terrorism/

[msanthrope]

70. I'm guessing the 911 call support g ISIS is dispositive. nt

[get the red out]

80. No shit!

The guy appears to be inspired by an Islamic extremist terror organization that interprets their religion according to whatever evil they want to accomplish. I don't see why this is so hard to accept? Attacks on Family Planning clinics have the same relationship to Christianity.

People anxious to kill would probably not be happy with (and would stand out in) a normal Mosque or Church (yes I know there are wretched examples of places of worship).

[Trust Buster]

13. Nonsense, Ted Cruz's biggest endorsements came from a Christian that calls for gays to be executed.

[uponit7771]

15. +1

[msanthrope]

19. Note.....I didn't state a religion. I think m the whole Abramahic scheme is fucked. nt

[justiceischeap]

24. For many years (not that long ago too) you could blame the media, doctors and politicians

for their rhetoric about homosexuality too. Not too long ago on DU, we had liberals blaming the LGBTQ community for losses and telling us our issues didn't matter. So you can't lay it all at the feet of religion. PS, I'm an atheist.

[Person 2713]

60. I agree ^^^^^^

[PeaceNikki]

28. It's important to discuss, expose, shame, and blame ideology which fuels such carnage

[randome]

31. Makes one think, doesn't it: is hateful 'ideology' any different from 'hate radio'?

Both are the background noise that 'inspires' mass killings.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[PeaceNikki]

35. It should all be blamed, shamed and discussed.

RW ideology is responsible for the PP attack.

[MellowDem]

53. Hateful religious ideology...

is so mainstream, privileged and widespread that it is rarely ever allowed to be challenged.

That's why the term "Islamophobia" is so offensive to me, akin to "Fascismphobia" or "Racismphobia", making victims of a bigoted belief system. Being afraid of a religion whose holy texts promote hate and bigotry against homosexuals (and a lot of other people) isn't irrational.

And for members of said religions who don't want to be associated with the hate and bigotry in their own holy books, it's all just a matter of privilege to pretend they can claim identity with these groups while not accepting responsibility for what their religion promotes.

[MindPilot]

57. Very well-said!

I'm amazed at the level of the pretzel logic I see here as people try to blame something, anything other than religion.

[Quackers]

67. Would you like them to wear a gold star too?

Who exactly decides what's extreme? I've seen plenty of people that say just believing in a God is enough to qualify as extremism and mental illness.

[still_one]

56. no doubt these were influencing factors

[backscatter712]

61. It's fundamentalism. Religious Fundamentalism is a mental disorder.

I don't know what it is about Islam that seems to bring out more violence - must be more of those "genes" being activated in Islamic circles these days, although that can and has changed in both Christianity and Islam. Even Buddhism is vulnerable to this - see places like Burma and Sri Lanka for examples of Buddhist fundies getting violent.

But I'd say the least common denominator in these sorts of violent incidents is fundamentalism.

If you ask me, I think every person spouting too much extremist religious ideology should be Baker Acted and deprogrammed.

[roamer65]

65. I agree 150 pct. n/t

[Person 2713]

62. Plenty of other brands breed the same hate

Don't make it a circle of hate
Does no good IMO

[Bluenorthwest]

66. The OP mentions nor favors any 'brand' of religion. The OP just stated a fact you can not dispute.

It is fitting and proper to take a moment to discuss the actual hate that left 50 people dead. Relatively speaking any discussion of schools of thought don't seem all that hateful.

[Person 2713]

68. The title does. It favors "his brand" . It yes , mentions the word "brand".

[Bluenorthwest]

69. Point being that any brand that taught that to him owns it. No matter which brand.

And they do have to own it. You can't be a KKK member and say 'well, how dare you think I'm racist I just like the pot luck dinners and such, don't you dare assume that my being in a hate club means that I hate!!!!!'
You can have your faith cake or you can eat it. You can't have both.

[Bengi]

73. He hated Pursuit of Happyness

Many people think being gay is misguided and that religion is guidance.
it has nothing to do with this shooting or who he was
He hated "The pursuit of happyness" and allowing people to be happy regardless of a personal view
a piece of paper can't make you an American.
You have to cross those borders in your mind

[6000eliot]

77. Far-Right Christians in this country must feel awfully conflicted about this.

[Skittles]

83. think of the quandary for repukes

how to hate gays and pimp for guns and still pretend that they care at all about what happened

[TipTok]

78. More than ok...

Mandatory...

[bravenak]

81. I think so too

Not necessarlily devout, just a person with deep hate inside and the means to destroy lives and murder our citizens. To sit up and plan this took a while lot of hate in his heart.

[joshcryer]

84. I believe he was pious.

And I think while it was absolutely a mass hate crime, the guy was fed some seriously sick shit in his religious associations. If you have a "scholar" saying "gays must all be killed" I don't know how much that can be considered protected speech. When the militia talked about killing people they were arrested and ostracized. There is a good documentary about the militia diaspora (how many of them went to Alaska, etc). While the militia and its cohorts did not do mass shootings, everyone knows of the Oklahoma City bombing. And bands of militia are still arrested to this day (see Bundy's group of fascists). Hiding hate speech under religion is a difficult prospect to get rid of, but it needs to be dealt with the same way that the militia was dealt with.

Here's the documentary: