General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMaybe the Florida shooting is the last straw....
Maybe it's time for everyone, right, left, middle, green, LGBT, libertarians, socialists, to come together in a common consensus
and present a united policy/face to the world that we will not stand for this sort of outrage. Political sniping and inter camp bickering
between all parties only emboldens our enemies. If you don't think that terrorists troll chat rooms/forums of every stripe to gauge the responses/mood of the American people in regards to these acts, then I'm sorry, but your kidding yourselves. I for one, am SICK
of the blame games and the attempts to politicize these terrible events. Is there no common ground upon which everyone can agree
that this HAS to stop? I guess the first step would have to be recognizing who is actually responsible for these acts...not "who created the climate" but who actually pulled the trigger.
-none
(1,884 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)-none
(1,884 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)You don't think that it is a good idea to united against this sort of thing?
TexasProgresive
(12,148 posts)However if the massacre of little children didn't bring us (the nation collectively) to our senses I can't image what would.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Is this the new narrative? Is this a way to deflect our attention away from The Florida shootings and the perpetrator?
TexasProgresive
(12,148 posts)Tend to be prejudiced against the victims of the Orlando horror. I'm referring to congress and many state legislatures. Maybe you are correct in your OP that this could be a turning point. I am pessimistic.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Sandy Hook was "the Last Straw," too. And all the massacres before. There's a lot of sentiment, but not much substance, basically
I don't think anyone's trying to tear you down or deflect from your point. It's just we've all edeard the promises before, and it keeps happening. It leads to a pretty deep cynicism about anything ever coming of it.
WiffenPoof
(2,404 posts)Remember what happened right after Sandy Hook? A plol was taken where 92% of Americans agreed that we needed stricter background checks for purchasing a firearm? Nothing was done. If 92% off the population desire this, how come it didn't even get to a vote. And you wonder see why we can't seem to get our act together.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Many believed several previous straws were, likewise, the "last straw".
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)that if the sight if 20+ young school children dead didn't turn the tide, then perhaps nothing can.
I think some folks just feel that this view point, however sad, is true. This is absolutely horrific. But what could make it the last straw that hasn't existed before?
-none
(1,884 posts)We foster a free wheeling gun climate in this country and spend hundreds of billions of dollars in other countries to make terrorists and then wonder why we have routine mass murders in this country? Nobody should be wondering.
Only 30 to 35 percent of the people in this country own firearms. Yet there are many more firearms than people in this country. The biggest problem are hand guns and being allow to carry in public. The second biggest problem are the military looking knock-offs, too many use to get their testosterone fix.
So, the problem is two fold. One, too many guns in the hands of too many people that should not be having them in the first place, and two - Too many guns floating around.
Fix those two items and watch out firearm death plummet.
clarice
(5,504 posts)It's as if the gun itself fired at those poor people
-none
(1,884 posts)in the first place.
If you are paranoid enough to think you need a gun in the first place, especially in public, maybe you are too paranoid to be possession of any firearms.
Straw Man
(6,613 posts)-none
(1,884 posts)you think one or more concealed carry guys in the crowd would have taken out the bad guys and stopped the carnage.
Straw Man
(6,613 posts)You chose not to answer it. Let's get that out of the way first, shall we?
-none
(1,884 posts)There are plenty of Christians that have committed mass murder, so what is the difference?
The problem is fundamentalism, not any specific religion. If the guy had been a Republican Christian and all else being equal, would you be having the same mind set? I'm betting no.
The word is he was a long time ticking time bomb, who finally went off. Deal with that for a bit.
Straw Man
(6,613 posts)Are you responding to a different subthread? The question was how effective restricting weapon access is for preventing terrorist shootings. I asked you how well it worked in France. I'm still waiting for your answer.
-none
(1,884 posts)I see a problem with too many guns in general and you see a problem with his religion.
Straw Man
(6,613 posts)I never said a word about his religion. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else.
Vinca
(50,170 posts)I imagine there's a good chunk of the far right that is downright happy to see gays gunned down.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)Good luck
clarice
(5,504 posts)Albertoo
(2,016 posts)Common sense is like garlic to people who want all cultures and ideologies to be equally good.
Personally, I think the Maya cult involving human sacrifices was sub par. But that's me.
Vinca
(50,170 posts)There are no rainbows or puppies or unicorns or singing "Kumbayah" when it comes to guns. One side worships them, the other cares about the well being of the citizens. While uniting is always a good idea, it's only wishful thinking at this point in time. Are you ready to hold hands with Trump and skip down a rose petal covered path? If you are, here's a news flash: he's not interested. His followers aren't interested. Most Republicans aren't interested. A gun wielding thug can take out the babies in a hospital nursery and the GOP will stand with the NRA before they stand with the babies. Sad, but true.
clarice
(5,504 posts)sort of thing....maybe wishful thinking.
Vinca
(50,170 posts)Realists like me have pretty much given up when it comes to the carnage that is allowed to happen on our streets every day.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Albertoo
(2,016 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)nothing will. It's time for politicians to do the right thing and ban automatic weapons regardless of the shit fit that will be thrown by the NRA and their gun humper enablers.
clarice
(5,504 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)There are many groups united to stop gun violence,we can unite til the cows come home,it does mean shit if politicians won't act.
lancer78
(1,495 posts)have been banned for years. Only way to get one is through extensive background checks and shelling out $20,000 per gun.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)yuiyoshida
(41,763 posts)n/t
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)History has shown that events like this cause a spike in defensive gun purchases. Alot of people will think that if only one or a few of the victims had a gun then many lives could have been saved.
clarice
(5,504 posts)One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)With half the country seeing the only solution as gun control while the other half sees the only solution is every good person to carry a gun. You are only guaranteed to have roadblock.
clarice
(5,504 posts)front against terrorism....not gun control.
kcr
(15,300 posts)Not interested.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Are you suggesting that, other than terrorists, there is some significant demographic which is either apathetic or supportive of terrorism?
qnr
(16,190 posts)here think that it is a good idea, the fact that shooting a school full of kids wasn't 'the last straw' makes it obvious that this shooting isn't going to be.
clarice
(5,504 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)Unfortunately the NRA is an incredibly entrenched organization. Yes obviously if the overwhelming majority of Americans who support some measure of gun control come together, vote out the cockroaches who kowtow to the NRA, then gun reform can happen. Unfortunately as we have seen with senseless tragedy after senseless tragedy, there will always be those who value their guns over other people's lives.
clarice
(5,504 posts)That it might help if groups from all across the political spectrum could unite and
form a coalition condemning these acts.
qnr
(16,190 posts)to be secretly glad that this happened to the LGBTQ community. Any uniting is going to be partial.
clarice
(5,504 posts)but it's hard for me to imagine anyone in main stream America, regardless WHAT side you lean to, taking Joy in in an act like this. Yes perhaps .00005 percent of the population who are TRULY mentally deficient would applaud this act. But again,
I think that the VAST majority would condemn them.
qnr
(16,190 posts)on the internet though, in order that you are allowed to keep it.
Incidentally, I wasn't being facetious - I really do love the attitude.
clarice
(5,504 posts)I'm not always this "rosy" lol
alarimer
(16,245 posts)People have already gone on record celebrating this, most notably Dan Patrick of Texas. The lieutenant governor, if fact. If you think I'm going to unite with people like that, you are naive. If elected officials can stay that stuff, or people running for office, it's because they know it won't cost them votes. Because it is fully accepted among the constituencies.
Sure, a lot of people will post pictures on Facebook to show their "solidarity"; many will offer "thoughts and prayers" (quite literally the very least they can do), but in the end, nothing will get done to stop the carnage. Nothing will get done to stop the foaming-at-the-mouth bigotry that is very much a part of mainstream culture.
Spend some time in the dark corners of the internet and you will see it. It's not even that far away.
So, no, I'm not uniting with those people. I'd sooner lie down with a snake. If I get bitten, it's my fault. A snake can't help its nature.
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)It would seem you don't spend much time in the real world. Your percentage is WAY off.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,705 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)The Florida shootings seems like a good idea....don't you agree?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,705 posts)I just don't see how you can eliminate all of it...
-none
(1,884 posts)As things stand now, this country, as a industrialized nation, is the world's leader in both domestic gun violence and our export of our gun violence via our military. Both need to be stopped.
Just because it may be unrealistic to totally eliminate gun violence, does not mean, in any way, we should not at least try.
I'm getting from your posts that because it cannot be 100% eliminated, we should not try. Am I correct, or not?
sarisataka
(18,220 posts)unfortunately you see people don't want to unite. They prefer politicizing and pointing fingers.
I don't understand why it is so hard to stand with people you may disagree with on many issues and say hate is wrong, violence is wrong, we can live together is peaceful disagreement.
clarice
(5,504 posts)to this issue...maybe just a step forward.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,320 posts)You call for uniting all the various groups.
Well, it's already happened. As has been pointed out in the thread already,the entire country basically threw it's hands up in the air and said "Oh well!" after Sandy Hook.
If 5 year olds getting shot in the face doesn't do it, what will?
The country is already united. And we don't give enough of a fuck to elect people who will do what is necessary.
clarice
(5,504 posts)this event has a distinctly different smell to it.nt
A HERETIC I AM
(24,320 posts)This event is a case of a whackjob acting on an impulse he should have otherwise controlled.
How is that any different from Sandy Hook?
clarice
(5,504 posts)A HERETIC I AM
(24,320 posts)How is it different? Add "Muslim" to the mix? What? Please enlighten me.
It's a non rational thinking actor, taking his hatred to the extreme.
There are plenty of people I could say I hate and I would like to see dead, but I am not an irrational person and I am not going to act on those thoughts.
This person did.
So did Adam Lanza
randr
(12,408 posts)<iframe width="498" height="280" src="
" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>clarice
(5,504 posts)deathrind
(1,786 posts)But honestly if 20 dead children did not move the common sense meter in a sane directions this will not either.
This issue is symmetrical it is one of the few issues that plays both sides equally and until we recognize that the cost for one side of this issue far out weighs the other side nothing will be done.
SoCalMusicLover
(3,194 posts)It really should not even be news. We just are drawn to it, so the networks and press cover it.
Dalziel3979
(72 posts)The only way there will be no more American mass shootings is when there are no more Americans left to be shot.
SwankyXomb
(2,030 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Sandy Hook....but very few referencing the event in the OP. The Florida Shootings.
-none
(1,884 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)but the OP was about the Florida Shootings.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,320 posts)You can't expect your readers, unless they were born in the last 2 years to not make the comparison.
Do you honestly think that hasn't happened to a large degree?
What enemies? The guy who committed that atrocity in Orlando last night was an American citizen. What enemies?
So what? And I have not seen a single thread on DU that indicates otherwise.
So? You think you are the only one? It is unfortunate, if not downright tragic that the nation has now begin to expect these things.
For rational people, sure. But if you can't see that a large segment of the electorate is not rational.....
Really? That's YOUR "first step"? I think you'll find that most people made that step pretty quick.
clarice
(5,504 posts)all I'm getting is Sandy Hook.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,320 posts)Excuse me shouting, but what the hell can be said?
An asshole went into a nightclub and gunned down a shitload of people. It is unique in this country only because of the numbers, but it differs little from any of the mass shootings we have seen over the last ten years.
What is it you want said? That the targets were homosexuals? That it happened in Orlando on a Saturday night? That it was in Micky Mouse's backyard?!? What?
WHAT THE FUCK DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?
Just make the points you keep insisting others make for you, for crying out loud.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Have you read or seen any news on the perpetrator of these shootings?
A HERETIC I AM
(24,320 posts)you obviously want to make yourself, but have yet to do so.
Have I read or seen anything on the douchebag? Sure. He's a whackjob. And he is Muslim. And a Floridian.
So bloody what?
I'm just curious what it is you want the respondents to this thread to say FOR YOU.
That this was an act of terrorism? Well...sure...or maybe not.
That this guy did this because his Imam told him to? Or that he took orders from abroad?
SO WHAT?
Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)I'll be going back to my Doctor Who videos after I finish reading up on this. I'm just not going to tell myself that it's going to magically bring about some miraculous social change.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)We're all horrified by this. What more is there that you want? For people to stop talking about the gun issue? To put American Muslims in internment camps? What is it that you want us to unite to do?
clarice
(5,504 posts)admit that we ALL live in the same Country... and take steps together to curtail more needless loss of life.
Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)There's some diversity of opinion as to what degree it is domestic or foreign in nature, or to what extent our own gun culture and "freedoms" are playing a role. Also about the role that our own activities in the Middle East may have sown some seeds.
Are you asking to rid this country of diverse opinions, or of opinions that differ from your own? Is that your definition of "uniting"? If so, I think you're going to find yourself disappointed and frustrated.
What steps do you think are going to "curtail more needless loss of life"? Invade more countries? Arrest/deport Muslims? Arm more citizens? Not mention any other recent mass shooting incidents?
I still can't figure out what it is that you want.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)It's not cool to nurture the 'opinion' that gay people must die. So do not do that.
Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)I was having a dialogue with another poster that you were not party to, and that you apparently did not read, and are taking completely out of context.
Kindly apologize for your unfounded accusation.
Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)It's just not cool to nurture the opinion that rape is "okay". So do not do that.
Dem2
(8,166 posts)Nazi Trump appreciates your passive support.
clarice
(5,504 posts)uniting against organized terrorism ( as it is looking like this event was) (If it isn't, I will be the first to say I was wrong) going over so well. Why?
Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)as opposed to a single, homophobic, gun obsessed person, who found himself identifying with ISIS?
I've honestly only just found out about this, so don't know the answer. I'll be interested to learn more.
Is there any evidence that he was actively affiliated with ISIS and carrying out their instructions, or just that he had apparent sympathies?
clarice
(5,504 posts)that it APPEARED to be realated. I am making no firm accusations, as you will notice from several of my posts.
Ho about the option that I sited in my OP? Let's stay on topic.
Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)Also.... I'm getting the feeling that my idea of all parties......
uniting against organized terrorism ( as it is looking like this event was) (If it isn't, I will be the first to say I was wrong) going over so well. Why?
I think pretty much everyone already is against organized terrorism. If you find someone defending it here, please point it out.
clarice
(5,504 posts)There are many threads with posts exactly like that.... look them up... you'll be amazed.
spanone
(135,636 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)spanone
(135,636 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)I realize that Sandy Hook is the new talking point to deflect the act/perpetrator of the Fla. shootings...
That's why I asked responses to be limited to the event at hand.lol
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Its about pointing out to you that the idea that this horrible tragedy will somehow cause the country to change is just a daydream on your part. Why would this change anyones minds when 20 dead little kids didn't? Or are you asking people to 'unite' behind a movement against Muslims?
Calista241
(5,584 posts)This attack can easily and pretty truthfully be blamed on terrorists.
Also, while most everyone can relate to having kids, which makes Sandy Hook more "real" to them; not everyone has LGBT friends and family, and is thus harder for people to have a "this could happen to me" reaction.
Just look at the countries reaction to AIDS in the 80's. If you weren't gay, essentially nobody gave a shit. It wasn't later until Magic Johnson and possibly Easy-E contracted AIDS that people considered themselves at risk.
clarice
(5,504 posts)not even close friends... but that STILL doesn't stop me from Hating this monster.
Calista241
(5,584 posts)and making big, societal changes to your and your neighbor's lives, rights, and what many people consider their "freedoms".
clarice
(5,504 posts)Calista241
(5,584 posts)Which i interpreted as "can we implement effective gun control now that a shitload of people have been shot."
clarice
(5,504 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,780 posts)Everyone (well almost everyone) is sad and outraged. We agree on that.
The shooter was a Muslim, on the "FBI radar" but never arrested, and pledged allegiance to ISIS. Score one for anti-Islamic xenophobia. This will certainly re-energize calls for the banning and deportation of Muslims.
Gun control? If Sandy Hook didn't bring about gun control, nothing will. We will hear Wayne LaPierre make the same tired call for everyone to go about armed which --he will argue -- would have stopped the shooter before he could have done so much damage or deterred him altogether. Meanwhile, the left will argue for an AWB that they will never get.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Response to clarice (Original post)
Th1onein This message was self-deleted by its author.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Response to clarice (Reply #71)
Th1onein This message was self-deleted by its author.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)US government inarguably responsible, hardly a peep in protest on DU.
Hekate
(90,202 posts)Maybe this country has a streak of madness in it, and a gun god that demands blood sacrifices daily.
clarice
(5,504 posts)and anti gay, anti American agenda. Would it have made any difference at all if this nut had used poison gas?
Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)There's no "poison gas rights" lobby that I'm aware of.
Gomez163
(2,039 posts)Crunchy Frog
(26,548 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Gomez163
(2,039 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)You seem frustrated by people bringing up Sandy Hook, Columbine, etc., but you don't seem to understand that your subject line invites discussion of previous incidents by referring to THIS one as the "last straw".
Many people have been out of straws for a while.
No one is disagreeing you, but people are responding to your characterization of this as the "last straw" by pointing out that there is no end to these horrors, and the same thing is said every single time.
One Black Sheep
(458 posts)Islamic terrorism, sad to say, is just getting started. You can't stop it, no matter how united.
It is kinda like how everyone is united to stop crime, yea, most people are good citizens and don't want crime to happen. Yet, it still does.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)nt
clarice
(5,504 posts)tabasco
(22,974 posts)another day in the decline of a corrupted democracy.
Kingofalldems
(38,361 posts)Kingofalldems
(38,361 posts)TDale313
(7,820 posts)Not surprising since it is basically a "terrorists bad, stfu about the guns and who was targeted" thread.
I guess you weren't quite clear enough on last thread of what- people keep bringing up Sandy Hook cause they assume you meant (or should have meant) gun violence.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)and gone beyond the clear failure of not only gun bans as a means of solving a violence problem, but beyond the failure of dialog in general. The reasons for lack of unity are deep and far, far beyond the narrow, failed social policy of gun control. Name the issue, and there is little unity because what brung us to the USA dance in the first place was a set of national myths and legends created by the Mass Media Model. Be it the Big 3 networks, the Dailies, the weekly mags, the goddam Top 40 and Ed Sullivan have all passed by in my adult lifetime. We may have wanted something better with the Innertubes and connectedness, and it may come about down the line, but what we have now is the instant power to discredit anything and anyone at any time. This breeds a profound alienation where the selfies and facebooks do little more than construct a fast-moving self-image; here today, gone tomorrow, with a Lonely Street hangover. Most can put up with this, but many can't, and a few will commit atrocities because the price of legend and myth is cheap with a universal exchange rate: A cure for cancer is as good as shooting up a nightclub, but with too damn much work with too little public notice.
I can (and should) ask you hard questions about What is unity, What is the difference between one atrocity and another? What are the chances your naivete will get anywhere? Are you ignoring bigger questions? But for now, you are the lone picket destroyer in heavy seas at night, trying to inform a fleet you are no longer sure is behind you. I welcome your challenge.
Albertoo
(2,016 posts)Brit, French or Polish politicians bickering among themselves while Hitler was rising..
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)alarimer
(16,245 posts)We'll go back to our lattes and barbeques in a week or two.
patsimp
(915 posts)And people aren't going to be bullied into staying quiet and not connecting dots.
This killers father is a supporter of the Taliban. The killer pledged allegiance to ISIS. Islamic state hates homosexuals, and like the teachings of the religion state, the penalty is death.
What did the killer do? He killed homosexuals.
It's as direct a line as 911 was to Bin Laden.
SoCalMusicLover
(3,194 posts)A Third of the population will follow and believe Trump.
Americans also let Shrub convince them that the direct line from 9/11 was really to Sadaam.
The American public will allow it, because the odds of it happening to them are low. Most just expect it won't happen to them.
It is just the price of freedom and living in America.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)You've got much on the ball with those thoughts. IMHO a substantial purpose of terrorist work is the demoralization and division of those targeted. Having blame and bicker party here is probably rather satisfying to those that hate us.
re:
There's some wisdom. Might be tough to accept but wisdom.