Calling it a terror attack as opposed to a hate crime.

[JudyM]

Calling it a terror attack allows a unified politicians' response. Rubio has been interviewed repeatedly, as of course has Gov Scott. If it were called a hate crime, what would rethugs' reaction be? It would show many of them for what they are.

Reports are that he was not particularly religious, but he was homophobic. And had anger management issues.

Terror attack definition: the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature.

On edit: this seems to be primarily a hate crime, but it's politically significant to call it terrorism.

[Duckhunter935]

1. Indeed

Actually, I think it was both

[JudyM]

4. It's about his goals... He had a rage issue and was upset at gays kissing.

Definition: the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature.

[oberliner]

10. "and was upset at gays kissing."

This could very easily turn out to be BS.

[JudyM]

42. His father suggested that's what his motivation was.

[oberliner]

43. Perhaps his father is lying?

Again, I assert that it is way too early to make these sorts of pronouncements.

[Lizzie Poppet]

28. Agree: a bit of both.

I can't imagine it makes much difference to the families of the dead.

[6chars]

31. A lot of both

[tecelote]

2. Yes. By defining what group he is from will demonize that group.

He was a nut.

No reason to attack another country.

Every reason to support gun control.

[David__77]

80. He was a Muslim. There's no need to "demonize."

He was a Muslim who supported Islamic State.

There is a real, existing organization called Islamic State that wants to annihilate homosexuals.

As a gay man, this is of particular concern to me. I support the complete destruction of Islamic State and like Islamist organizations and the deportation/prohibition of entry of non-citizens who support the death penalty for homosexuality. I support the comprehensive attack against the ideology underlying these organizations.

[patsimp]

83. it might stop future deaths if we understood and dealth with the motivation

[JudyM]

93. Right, and promote education about it and a more peaceful society.

[patsimp]

95. Hopefully.

[ellenrr]

3. what did they call the attack on the abortion provider? nt

.

[Duckhunter935]

7. Should have been called what it was

Domestic terrorism

[deathrind]

27. Agree 100% nt

[patsimp]

84. when was the last attack on the abortion providers?

how many were killed? Was there a foreign power calling them to war?

And, yes, those Christian radicals should be in jail too.

[FDR_Liberal]

5. Yeah

I think it was a hate crime and he just used Islam to justify it. He wanted gay people to die so he looked at religion and thought ok, ill use this to convince myself im not a bad guy.

[oberliner]

11. Why did he want gay people to die?

What gave him the idea that anything was wrong with gay people?

[FDR_Liberal]

16. I have no idea

Maybe a family member of his touched him at a young age, maybe his friend was raped by a man or something i dont know, and for anyone to assume they know is kind of crazy. All we have to go off of is what happened and what we know for sure.

We know he targeted gay people. We know he had mental issues. We know he didnt like seeing men kissing. We know he said he aligned with isis. Ive also heard reports, not sure if its true, that he actually wasnt that religious.

[oberliner]

23. Maybe he followed an ideology that preached homophobia?

It's weird how you posit a lot of maybe's in your first paragraph, but in your second paragraph you write: "We know he didnt like seeing men kissing." I'm wondering how it is you can assert with confidence that "we know" that?

[FDR_Liberal]

36. Yeah youre right

I dont know anything, you know everything. It has to be the fault of Islam and Islam alone.

I said all those maybes because your asking me answer a question that no one currently knows the answer to. Im not one to assume fact, i can tell you like to but im good on that.

You have you're agenda to blame it on Islam and muslims, its real clear dude, ill let ya be hoss. Keep preaching hate in an attempt to create peace, that should work....smh

[oberliner]

41. Huh?

I think you misunderstand entirely my post.

All I was saying is that we don't really know anything about this person or why he did what he did. Let's not jump to any conclusions based on incomplete information.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that this attack should be blamed on Islam and Muslims.

[FDR_Liberal]

47. Nothing like dog whistles

"We dont really know anything about this person"...yet the post prior you make an assumption that it couldve been his ideology that caused him to do it. I say its a hate crime and have facts to back it up and you say, "no, you cant make assumptions, foul!"

I dont know what conclusion i jumped to... he targeted a gay bar, thats clear as day. Gay people tend to go to gay bars. Targeting a person based on their sexual orientation is a hate crime. Gay is a sexual orientation btw.

[oberliner]

48. Dog whistles?

Pretty sure you and I are the only ones reading this exchange, so I am not sure what metaphorical dogs you think are being whistled to.

I presented a maybe, as you presented several maybes. You proposed a few ideas as to why you think this person may have committed this horrible crime. It is also maybe possible that he followed an ideology that preached homophobia.

People are not generally born hating homosexuals.

[FDR_Liberal]

55. Ughh

I hate having to explain to you different things. First you make an unfounded assumption that know one else is reading this, you have no way of knowing that notnto mention its irrelevant. When i say dog whistle, i mean youre trying to make a point with out saying the words exactly. Example. Obama got the urban vote (translation... obama only got black people to vote for him cause hes black).
When you talk ideology, its clear as day that you really are trying to say its Islam.

The tiniest % of muslims are radicalized.

[oberliner]

60. OK

I don't wish to aggravate. I am just suggesting that he might've been taught homophobia from some influential figure in his life, such as a family member, a teacher, a religious figure, etc. Many of the horrible crimes committed against homosexuals over the years have been motivated by firebrand religious types preaching hate, so it is certainly possible that such teachings played a role. It's also entirely possibly that he was just an unhinged lunatic and heard voices or something along those lines.

[King_David]

77. Well in this case it was a Gay hating Islamic radical vermin scum

That's fact.

Do you think there should be any tolerance or a pass to any culture or religion preaching violence against LGBTQ? - I think their should be Zero Tolerance.

[6chars]

38. some background here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam

[jberryhill]

78. There are many such ideologies - the common thread is hating gay people

Should we be going after the hate, or the "ideology":

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.668796

6 Stabbed at Jerusalem Gay Pride Parade by ultra-Orthodox Jewish Assailant

As a non-participant in various "ideologies", please tell me the utility of knowing which of many species of gay-hating "ideology" may or may not have been involved.

[King_David]

85. And that kind of hate is not tolerated in Israeli or Jewish culture

Homophobia should not be given a pass to any culture.

[jberryhill]

98. So? That person clearly subscribed to an ideology in which hate is fine

[JudyM]

33. Exactly.

[yeoman6987]

97. Well he wanted Disney but too many security challenges

[PeaceNikki]

6. They are not mutually exclusive. It seems like both.

[JudyM]

8. ISIS "culture" condones hatred and violence against LGBT but but he wasn't religious.

It seems he was claiming cover of ISIS to justify his homophobic violence.

[PeaceNikki]

9. I believe his hatred of LGBT was rooted in extremist beliefs.

Practicing or not, he was raised as an extremist.

[JudyM]

35. The reports on CNN are that he was *not* raised in a religious home.

[PeaceNikki]

39. One does not have to be 'religious' to be an extremist.

You keep saying religious, I didn't.

[JudyM]

44. Ok, extremist, then.

[PeaceNikki]

65. CNN is reporting he regularly attended mosque 3-4 times per week.

And as recently was two days ago. So he was also religious, I'd argue.

[JudyM]

70. Yes, this is coming out now. First reports were the opposite, which is what my post was directed

toward.

At this point it looks like religion-fueled aggression against gays. Still not looking like a jihad-type act, more of a personal hate crime fueled, as noted, by religion.

[oberliner]

12. How do you know that he wasn't religious?

What are you basing that on?

[JudyM]

22. Reports that his lifestyle was not religious... "Chasing women," etc., that his family isn't

religious, either.

[oberliner]

24. And you are confident about the veracity of these "reports" ?

Seems a little early in the investigation process to know what's what.

[JudyM]

58. Obvsly only based on what has been reported. Just how I'm putting it together. The loaded

nature of the terrorism moniker seems premature, if appropriate at all. We may learn differently, but at this point calling it terrorism detracts from the horror of this hate crime, which makes it more palatable for conservatives to speak out against, and more unifying for the media.

[oberliner]

62. Understood

It just seems that people tend to pick and choose which reports to emphasize and which ones to de-emphasize. I don't mean to direct that at you in particular, more a general observation of what I am reading in social media from various corners. My only assertion is that it is very possible that things that are being reported now may not turn out to be accurate.

[Bluenorthwest]

51. Because the religious are never hypocrites who do as they wish while judging others for doing the

same, right? Extremists.

[Texasgal]

13. Isn't terrorism in itself

a hate crime?

[JudyM]

19. Definition of hate crime:

FBI definition: a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity, gender, or gender identity.”

Not because of being American...

[Texasgal]

25. So, are these not things that terrorism

goes after?

Terrorism is HATE!

[alarimer]

14. It was both.

It was also a hate crime on two levels (at least). It was Latino night at the club and many in the crowd were Latino. Maybe that was entirely coincidental, but perhaps not.

[Miles Archer]

34. Agree 100%.

This one's not going to be easily defined. It had elements of both.

[malaise]

15. What I know is that so far every dead person is Hispanic

and it was a gay night club.

[MadBadger]

21. I assume the former is because it was Latin Night

[mcar]

17. President Obama and HRC have called it both

And they are correct. KT was an act of terrorism and of hate.

[JudyM]

26. It is clearly a hate crime. That should be the lead.

He has no affiliation with a foreign terrorist organization, according to CNN. Reports are that he wasn't religious. It looks much more like he justified the abominable hate crime by conveniently claiming the mantle of religion.

[PeaceNikki]

32. He's been on FBI watch list for being an ISIS sympathizer for several years.

[JudyM]

40. That could as well be about hatred and violence. Reports are that he was not a practicing Muslim.

He was hate-filled.

[6chars]

50. occam's razor

He pledges allegiance to a religous group that advocates what he did and calls for people like him to do what he did. Everyone else in the whole world, whatever their feelings, did not do what he did and what that religious group advocates. What are the odds of that?

He probably believes the religion.

[kysrsoze]

18. Hate crimes are terrorist attacks.

[TheFrenchRazor]

73. that's exactly what they are. nt

[MadBadger]

20. If he pledged allegiance to ISIS, how can you say he's not particularly religious?

[JudyM]

30. All the other data points/evidence they have on him. If you were going to go out and kill

a bunch of LGBTs because you were offended by their kissing wouldn't you claim it was because of your religion?

That is what happens all the time with violence by the "Right"... That is how they justify oppressive laws, as well.

[Cayenne]

29. The language police will weigh in soon

[Marrah_G]

37. Sadly, it is both

[deathrind]

45. IMO there really is no difference.

One follows the other.

[JudyM]

46. We should call homophobic violence: homophobic violence.

[Rex]

49. Well the gunman meant to cause terror and it was a hate crime.

So I think it is terrorism and a hate crime.

[JudyM]

52. The definition is a planned attack to achieve ideological, religious, etc goals, not just

to cause terror.

[Rex]

53. Isn't that exactly what the gunman did? Planned attack. Check. Achieve ideological goal

(kill gay people). Check. Sounds just like a terrorist. Question, is all terrorism political?

[6chars]

57. ISIS does have some goals it uses terror like this for.

I don't understand the need to prove that this is not terrorism. It's not like we need to worry about hurting the terrorists' feelings, or this particular killer.

[JudyM]

59. It downplays the horror of homophobia. And is more convenient for conservatives and the MSM.

[6chars]

69. Ah

I do think that this was homophobia of the radical Islamic variety. But I agree that homophobia is hugely what happened. It was disgusting to read comments on news sites from gay haters of the more common american type, which show just how pervasive gay hate is. I am calling it that not homophobia because that is too gentle an euphemism. I hope all Americans will be shocked into realizing how horrible these attidues are and that the Muslim world is too. Too many lessons here, in this intersectionality of evil.

[JudyM]

74. Yes, the big discussion is about finding his terrorist roots, as opposed to his homophobic roots.

[annavictorious]

54. Would the definition be important in determinig who gets to lead the investigatio?

[still_one]

56. It is both

[braddy]

61. It was a Muslim terror attack and for the group ISIS, what is confusing about that?

[ileus]

79. Most don't see ISIS as an enemy and Christians are the real enemy.

[Odin2005]

63. It's both a terrorist attack and a hate crime.

[justiceischeap]

64. JudyM, calling it only a terror attack kinda erases the group of people that were terrorized

This was a very specific terror attack on the LGBTQ community, which also makes it a hate crime. It's terrific for the GOP to frame this solely as a terror attack, because they don't have to think or talk about their culpability in the whole massacre. Fomenting an environment, whether by words or deeds, that it's okay to hate or actively legislate against the LGBTQ community.

Thankfully, both President Obama and Hillary Clinton have acknowledged who this actually happened to. So has MSNBC, but many other media outlets are ignoring a very large aspect of the story--that this was the largest hate crime against a minority community in recent history-- and it's important to report that.

[Rex]

66. Wonderful reply!

I don't think the OP gets it. To think there is only ONE kind of terrorism is to be uninformed imo.

There is narco-terrorism, issue oriented terrorism(of which this crime fall under imo), pathological terrorism, state terrorism...I am leaving off some, but there are more types as well.

[justiceischeap]

67. It's true, the OP doesn't seem to grok there are all types of terrorism

and what happened in Orlando, it was a very specific type of terrorism (domestic) and a hate crime. When one specifically targets a specific class of people in the US, that automatically makes it a Federal hate crime. All the boxes have been ticked on this attack. Mostly though, I think people are just comfortable not talking about the LGBTQ community because if we mention the victims of this crime, we have to pray for gay people, that's problematic for the entire GOP and for a lot of people in this country.

[JudyM]

75. Plus all the discussion in the press is about finding his terrorist roots. Nothing about the roots

of his homophobia, planted by his father and likely nourished by radical Islam. Why isn't there more discussion in the press about homophobia, more "investigative journalism" about it?

[justiceischeap]

88. Because the only people that really care about the issue

are the ones effected by it.

[JudyM]

91. Yes, most people do not care about the LGBT community, even if they feel we should have rights,

societal institutional thinking, mostly promoted by holier than thou-ness of religion, makes people feel it's ok to marginalized and even attack LGBTs.

[JudyM]

71. Yes, completely agree. You said it well.

[hay rick]

68. The media and the political establishment are looking for terrorism.

All information that fits that narrative will be amplified. Here's a story that doesn't fit so well: http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/news/omar-mateen-a-trail-of-dead-ends-and-contradiction/nrfL6/?3434&ecmp=newspaper_email##

From the article

Both Mateen’s father and a former colleague suggested one other motivation.

“I never heard him refer to anybody who was black or gay as anything else but n——-s and queers,” said Daniel Gilroy, who worked with Mateen as a security guard for G4S, the world’s largest security company.

[JudyM]

72. Yes, it doesn't fit and also amplification of the terrorist narrative. But he was foremost a bigot.

Thank you for that link, hay rick.

[David__77]

82. Foremost a bigot and not foremost what?

Archie Bunker was a good example of a bigot. I think an awful lot of people are bigots without killing dozens of people with gunfire.

I do not understand this person as "foremost a bigot." I understand him now as foremost a killer.

[JudyM]

87. As between Islamic terrorist and bigot. That was the context. He is certainly also a killer.

[David__77]

90. Thank you. I understand.

I don't think I would counter-pose those two concepts. That might be valid from a tactical/PR standpoint, I suppose.

[JudyM]

92. IMO it's in fact a *critically important* distinction, for reasons expounded above by others as well

as me. Read if you care to...

[David__77]

81. Looking for terrorism?

I understand that "terrorism" is a word that people made up, just like any other word. That said, if this incident is not terrorism, then I cannot imagine that anything is terrorism. Was 9/11 a hate crime?

[JudyM]

89. Please read the rest of the thread for development of the idea, it's more layered than what's in

this small branch.

[Act_of_Reparation]

76. There's no reason it can't be both.

Hate crimes are by their very definition terrorism. Through use of violence, the perpetrators seek to terrify the targets of their hatred into subservience, docility, or invisibility.

[w4rma]

86. There is no difference between a hate crime and a terror attack.

Both are attacks meant to scare people into acting differently than they would have.

[JudyM]

94. It is more subtle. Explained in other DUers' comments above.

[yeoman6987]

96. President called it a terror attack. Good enough for me. I trust him to know